Digital BW, The Print

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> 
wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > Tyler,
> > 
> > I can't agree with you on that one. If you go to the Piezo list 
and 
> > run a search on "clogging" I honestly don't see how you can say 
that 
> > clogging is not an issue for ConeTech. It has got to be the most 
> > common problem that people ask for help on.
> 
> I never said it wasn't an issue.

Tyler,

You said, "Actually, I doubt Conetech has any clogging issue to 
resolve at all." Post #3205 


> > 
> > Perhaps I was not clear. Specifically I was speaking of the 
printing 
> > workflow. I don't see that a workflow of Image>Mode>RGB followed 
by 
> > Image>Adjust>Curves>Load>select curve>OK followed by Print>Print 
> > Properties>make the proper settings and then print is that much 
> > harder than the Piezo Export>Piezography>etc. 
> 
> I never said a word about workflow, now did I?

No, but you were responding to my comment, "Actual use of the 
workflows is not as user friendly as Piezo but what you have to do is 
rather trivial." which appeared in your post so I assumed you took 
exception to my remark and were talking about workflows.


> 
> > I know you don't mean to sound this way, but you come across as 
> > having a low opinion of all the people out there who are working 
to 
> > make quality prints on desktop printers. You imply that only pros 
> > with the expensive equipment have enough discerning taste to 
produce 
> > fine prints and that their opinions carry more weight than 
others. I 
> > don't buy that and I don't think you do either. Besides you could 
> > turn around and make the same argument about all the happy 
desktop 
> > Piezo users!
> 
> I don't think that. I never said that, nor implied it. It's 
outright crap.

As I said above I didn't think you meant it to come across that way 
but it did to me at least.

> But as far as workflow developement, if you think the gap can 
actually be closed, in every way technically, between 
> Piezography and the workflows discussed here without such assets 
and expertise available, I don't know what to say.

Tyler, all I said was that the gap would get narrower as people 
worked on the MIS curves. Will they absolutely close the gap? I don't 
see how. Anytime you take different routes to solve a problem you are 
going to end up with different results. I think that it is going to 
be tough to equal Piezo's wonderful tonality using Photoshop curves. 
There is a limit to the number of control points on a Photoshop curve 
(16?) that is likely to be a limiting factor among others.

Why do you think I was quizzing you and Dan about Profiler Pro and 
spectrophotometers a while back? I wish I had the resources to go in 
that direction. On the other hand, I think that you can make fine 
prints using the MIS curves as they exist. You are going to have to 
do some degree of manipulation inside the image to offset the non-
linearity of the curves, Epson driver, ink and paper combination. How 
much depends upon where the tonality of the image falls in relation 
to the imperfections in the system. Some images may not work at all. 
Not an ideal situation by any means but one that I have seen produces 
some nice stuff.
 
> Discerning taste has nothing to do with it, I've never said or 
implied that it did.

Oh, I think discerning taste has a lot to do with it. If you didn't 
have discerning taste you would not make great photographs and 
prints. 

> Regarding the rest, I think this thread has gotten real 
uninteresting real fast. If anyone is really that consumed with this, 
> my opinions were already stated, aparently in french. I'm not going 
to say them again, or go into furthur explanation.

Tyler, this thread seems to have gone into overdrive about my 
response to Jim Hayes (#3197). I though I was giving a balanced 
response which evolved into my expressing my honest uncertainty about 
what to recommend to new users. To me it was a rather innocuous post. 
You felt my response was unbalanced and responded. That's fine. But 
you came back pretty challenging and I returned the same.

I am very sorry if I have offended you. You should know by now that I 
greatly value your opinion and think you are a great guy. If there is 
a Tyler post it always gets read on this end. Does that mean I always 
agree with you 100%? Nope. But probably better than 99%. Can we live 
with some of it unresolved and continue to discuss the topic?

I would still like to get input from the experienced users as to what 
recommendations to make to new comers. Particularly on the desktop in 
the face of a dwindling supply of 3000's and 1160's that have been 
the backbone of quad printing.

Martin