Digital BW, The Print

* -----Original Message-----
* From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@verizon.net] 
* Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 9:01 AM
* To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* Subject: RE: [Digital BW] New PiezoBW upgrade / MIS
* 
* 
* Martin,
* 
* I'm not sure when MIS will have the new monotone inks on the 
* website.  There are 2 groups -- plug & play (no workflow, 
* simplicity-first) inks and
* FS/Piezo-driver compatible inks.

Paul,

Well keep us posted if you hear anything. Until they make them available I
think the PiezoTones are the preferred choice for those wanting to use the
R9/Piezo plug-in or the new Piezo ICC profile software given the superior
fade resistance. I am sure MIS has inventory issues as well and may want to
run out their stock of FS before moving on.


*   I MIS is in a big rush to 
* have easy to
* use inks to compete with HP -- the real serious, new 
* competitor out there.

I have not seen any HP output so far. I seem to recall that someone posted
that the example they saw was not very good. Do you think their products
will be of interest to serious users? Perhaps like the Epson UC prints a
good RIP solution will be necessary with HP's inks.

* Since these inks are all in the UT 
* family, they will all have the same fade resistance -- which 
* is state-of-the-art, "Class A."
* 
* I'm also not sure what MIS will call the inks.  I think 
* stressing the family group -- the Ultra Tones -- might be 
* useful due the common base and characteristics.  Given the 
* lower lightfastness of the FS ink, I think that name will be 
* avoided.  However, I'm sure MIS will note the compatibility 
* with the FS/Piezo workflows in text that describes the inks.
* 
* With respect to fade testing, what I would like to do is test 
* the top pigment ink families against the new HP.  I've been a 
* little slow on that front due to other activities and, 
* frankly, the fading issue has become much less important with 
* the newest pigments.  The UT and PT inks are so good it takes 
* a very long time to see any changes at all.
* 
* I consider the Ultra Tones, PiezoTone WN & Selenium, Eboni, 
* Museum, UltraChrome Matte, Photo, and Light black inks to be 
* so good I'm not sure fade testing proves much.  It is 
* unlikely fading will ever be a problem with these inks.

I agree. With the "Class A" inks I think we have reached a point where
fading is a non-issue. I guess the only real concerns are new inks as they
come on the market, like the HP and Septones. Do they fall into the new or
the old class of inks or somewhere in between? As you know I find the
Septone software approach appealing but the longevity of their new inks has
not been independently tested.
* 
* The color pigments are the ones that fade relatively quickly. 
*  So, the more color, the more likely there will be visible 
* fading.  For this, just look at Wilhelm's rating of the UC 
* inks in color versus B&W.  Frankly, the ">100 years" for the 
* Epson UC "B&W," even with the relatively large amount of 
* color pigs the Epson driver puts in them, hints at just how 
* good these black & gray inks are.  With the B&W inks that use 
* the least amount of color to achieve neutral tone (UT, PT & 
* ImagePrint), that could easily read, ">200 years" or "> the 
* Epson Archival inkset."

I was talking with Roy yesterday about this and I have to agree. Even though
we don't know what Epson is using for a pigment in their UC black inks the
expectation for neutral prints made with these inks is most likely as good
as the grayscale ink sets. If there are differences we will not be around
long enough to find out, which should be plenty long for any artist!
* 
* I'm reluctant to post long fade tests that show only 0.01 
* differences.  They are so minor that claiming the UT inks are 
* the best based on that small a difference might be deceptive. 
*  Other factors might have caused it.  As a consequence, I'm 
* inclined to group inks that are roughly equal.

Once again I agree. Density differences of a few hundredths is equal to the
uncertainty of the densitometers we have available. Even if we did have one
of the high end instruments that was that reliable, such small differences
are not discernable to the human eye in the 1.6+ range.
* 
* The "state-of-the-art" B&W inks are the UT & PT inksets, and 
* UC black & gray pigments.  (I have not tested the Septones 
* yet.)  These are what some might call "Class A" (>100 year), 
* archival materials.

As I recall you did test Eboni against PiezoTone Museum Black and Portfolio
Black and found that Eboni was as fade resistant as the Museum Black and had
the greater density of the Portfolio Black. If I have this wrong please let
me know.
* 
* Like Wilhelm, I'm suspicious that tests that purport to show 
* lives beyond this or differences among this group might be 
* pushing the test results
* beyond what is reasonable.   Especially for those of us who 
* cannot control
* humidity or heat, we may be at the limits of what simple 
* bright-light accelerated fade testing can reliably predict.  
* Other factors that are harder to test are probably going to 
* be the limiting factors (like the paper life, pollution 
* sensitivity, resistance to physical damage, and who knows what else).

There are so many real life variable that you really cannot make accurate
predictions on the life of any of the inks except to say that they will last
for a very long time and are indeed "archival." Under optimum conditions on
quality paper I think prints with these inks should last indefinitely.

At this point I think we have good information on the inks and the
requirements of quality paper are well known. The one area that we do not
know much about it the paper coatings. The recent reports of yellow marks on
Hahnemuhle paper from what sounds like out-gassing of the adhesive on the
packaging tape is of concern. This is not just an issue of poor packaging
but an indication that the paper is susceptible to environmental chemical
damage. I wish that we had some guidelines to know what chemicals need to be
avoided.
* 
* But, I will continue my testing where it seems relevant.
* 
Well I cannot thank you enough for your efforts to date in this regard.
Without your diligent testing over the last few years we would still be very
much in the dark responding to rumor and speculation.

Martin

* 
* 
* 
* 
* -----Original Message-----
* From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
* Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 11:39 PM
* To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* Subject: RE: [Digital BW] New PiezoBW upgrade / MIS
* 
* 
* 
* * -----Original Message-----
* * From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...]
* * Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 11:07 PM
* * To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* * Subject: RE: [Digital BW] New PiezoBW upgrade / MIS
* *
* *
* * Martin,
* *
* * You wrote, in part:
* *
* * >Even though they are more expensive I personally prefer 
* the Selenium
* * >PiezoTone over the MIS FS and they are much more fade and 
* warm shift
* * >resistant.
* *
* * I have sent MIS the formulas for upgraded Piezo-compatible
* * inks that are based on the Ultra Tone inks -- which is
* * becoming a family of inks now. They are state-of-the-art, as
* * lightfast as the PiezoTone inks, and RC/glossy paper
* * compatible also (like the Epson UltraChrome inks).  There is
* * a neutral/"selenium" toned version and a warm, pure carbon
* * version.  Tones of ink between these 2 can be mixed easily.
* * In fact, if one wants different tones in different parts
* * density scale (for example, warmer highlights than midtones),
* * the 3 midtone inks need not be the same mix of the two
* * monotone versions that now exist.  (I'm sure MIS will mix a
* * medium warm version if people want it.)
* 
* Paul,
* 
* I know this has been in the works for awhile. When do you 
* think MIS will have them available for sale?
* 
* I was also looking though the Files section today for fade 
* comparisons and we don't seem to have any info up on the 
* Eboni or the UT inks. I know you posted some data when Eboni 
* was first out. Can you copy me so that I can add the data to 
* the collection? It would also be great to have a fade 
* comparison between this new UT base ink set, PiezoTone, 
* Septone and FS as a control if you can fit such a trial into 
* your schedule.
* *
* * I also have new 1160 curves for the UT monotone inks.  For
* * the 1160 I have the usual fully-partitioned curves for EEM
* * and PhotoRag.  For EEM I also have a "mildly" partitioned
* * curve that may be more tolerant of printer differences, as
* * well as a grayscale curve and Transfer Function to control
* * the inks.  (The grayscale curve/TF print rougher.)
* * Additionally, I will soon have new curves for the 3000.
* *
* * So, as far as I'm concerned the FS inks are history.
* 
* Yep, they fulfilled the need for a non-clogging ink set when 
* they came out but at this point with the greater stability of 
* the UT and PT ink sets I don't see that they have anything to 
* offer. They have indeed passed into history. A couple of 
* years is a long time in this business. What are you going to 
* call these new Piezo compatible UT based inks? Things are 
* getting a bit confusing with all the inks choices and a new 
* distinctive name would help.
* 
* Martin
* 
* 
* 
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