Digital BW, The Print

Hello,

It may be too early to ask, but has anyone ordered and tried the 
new Cone Piezo upgrade with a non-Cone inkset such as MIS 
FS?  I've been pretty happy with the old combo of Piezo plug-in 
and MIS FS on my 3000s, but the Cone website sounds like the 
upgrade also requires changing to the Cone inks.  

It may just be a sales smokescreen, but if that's really the case, 
I'm going to wait until I have used up my supply of MIS inks.

Thanks!
Jan B.

* -----Original Message-----
* From: Jan Becket [mailto:jbecket@...] 
* Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 3:34 PM
* To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* Subject: [Digital BW] New PiezoBW upgrade / MIS
* 
* 
* Hello,
* 
* It may be too early to ask, but has anyone ordered and tried the 
* new Cone Piezo upgrade with a non-Cone inset such as MIS 
* FS?  I've been pretty happy with the old combo of Piezo plug-in 
* and MIS FS on my 3000s, but the Cone website sounds like the 
* upgrade also requires changing to the Cone inks.  
* 
* It may just be a sales smokescreen, but if that's really the case, 
* I'm going to wait until I have used up my supply of MIS inks.
* 
Jan,

The new software just became available today so there is not much info at
this point. I will  try the upgrade for my 1280 with the PiezoTone inks and
report back.

Since the MIS FS was designed as a "clone" of the original Piezo or Sundance
inks and the Piezotones inks were designed to match the same density to work
with the plug-in I would think that you would be reasonably close with the
new software and the FS inks. However, since the ICC profiles or the plug-in
were specifically designed for specific ink density the match may not be as
good. We won't know until someone tries it an reports back.

Even though they are more expensive I personally prefer the Selenium
PiezoTone over the MIS FS and they are much more fade and warm shift
resistant.

The Piezo 2 upgrade for you would only be $49 so maybe you will be the one
to give it a try with the 3000 and MIS FS, and let us know how it goes.<G>

Martin Wesley
http://www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

Martin,

You wrote, in part:

>Even though they are more expensive I personally prefer the Selenium
>PiezoTone over the MIS FS and they are much more fade and warm shift
>resistant.

I have sent MIS the formulas for upgraded Piezo-compatible inks that are
based on the Ultra Tone inks -- which is becoming a family of inks now.
They are state-of-the-art, as lightfast as the PiezoTone inks, and RC/glossy
paper compatible also (like the Epson UltraChrome inks).  There is a
neutral/"selenium" toned version and a warm, pure carbon version.  Tones of
ink between these 2 can be mixed easily.  In fact, if one wants different
tones in different parts density scale (for example, warmer highlights than
midtones), the 3 midtone inks need not be the same mix of the two monotone
versions that now exist.  (I'm sure MIS will mix a medium warm version if
people want it.)

I also have new 1160 curves for the UT monotone inks.  For the 1160 I have
the usual fully-partitioned curves for EEM and PhotoRag.  For EEM I also
have a "mildly" partitioned curve that may be more tolerant of printer
differences, as well as a grayscale curve and Transfer Function to control
the inks.  (The grayscale curve/TF print rougher.)  Additionally, I will
soon have new curves for the 3000.

So, as far as I'm concerned the FS inks are history.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com
_____________________________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 6:17 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] New PiezoBW upgrade / MIS


* -----Original Message-----
* From: Jan Becket [mailto:jbecket@...]
* Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 3:34 PM
* To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* Subject: [Digital BW] New PiezoBW upgrade / MIS
*
*
* Hello,
*
* It may be too early to ask, but has anyone ordered and tried the
* new Cone Piezo upgrade with a non-Cone inset such as MIS
* FS?  I've been pretty happy with the old combo of Piezo plug-in
* and MIS FS on my 3000s, but the Cone website sounds like the
* upgrade also requires changing to the Cone inks.
*
* It may just be a sales smokescreen, but if that's really the case,
* I'm going to wait until I have used up my supply of MIS inks.
*
Jan,

The new software just became available today so there is not much info at
this point. I will  try the upgrade for my 1280 with the PiezoTone inks and
report back.

Since the MIS FS was designed as a "clone" of the original Piezo or Sundance
inks and the Piezotones inks were designed to match the same density to work
with the plug-in I would think that you would be reasonably close with the
new software and the FS inks. However, since the ICC profiles or the plug-in
were specifically designed for specific ink density the match may not be as
good. We won't know until someone tries it an reports back.

Even though they are more expensive I personally prefer the Selenium
PiezoTone over the MIS FS and they are much more fade and warm shift
resistant.

The Piezo 2 upgrade for you would only be $49 so maybe you will be the one
to give it a try with the 3000 and MIS FS, and let us know how it goes.<G>

Martin Wesley
http://www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html





Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
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* -----Original Message-----
* From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@verizon.net] 
* Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 11:07 PM
* To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* Subject: RE: [Digital BW] New PiezoBW upgrade / MIS
* 
* 
* Martin,
* 
* You wrote, in part:
* 
* >Even though they are more expensive I personally prefer the Selenium 
* >PiezoTone over the MIS FS and they are much more fade and warm shift 
* >resistant.
* 
* I have sent MIS the formulas for upgraded Piezo-compatible 
* inks that are based on the Ultra Tone inks -- which is 
* becoming a family of inks now. They are state-of-the-art, as 
* lightfast as the PiezoTone inks, and RC/glossy paper 
* compatible also (like the Epson UltraChrome inks).  There is 
* a neutral/"selenium" toned version and a warm, pure carbon 
* version.  Tones of ink between these 2 can be mixed easily.  
* In fact, if one wants different tones in different parts 
* density scale (for example, warmer highlights than midtones), 
* the 3 midtone inks need not be the same mix of the two 
* monotone versions that now exist.  (I'm sure MIS will mix a 
* medium warm version if people want it.)

Paul,

I know this has been in the works for awhile. When do you think MIS will
have them available for sale?

I was also looking though the Files section today for fade comparisons and
we don't seem to have any info up on the Eboni or the UT inks. I know you
posted some data when Eboni was first out. Can you copy me so that I can add
the data to the collection? It would also be great to have a fade comparison
between this new UT base ink set, PiezoTone, Septone and FS as a control if
you can fit such a trial into your schedule.
* 
* I also have new 1160 curves for the UT monotone inks.  For 
* the 1160 I have the usual fully-partitioned curves for EEM 
* and PhotoRag.  For EEM I also have a "mildly" partitioned 
* curve that may be more tolerant of printer differences, as 
* well as a grayscale curve and Transfer Function to control 
* the inks.  (The grayscale curve/TF print rougher.)  
* Additionally, I will soon have new curves for the 3000.
* 
* So, as far as I'm concerned the FS inks are history.

Yep, they fulfilled the need for a non-clogging ink set when they came out
but at this point with the greater stability of the UT and PT ink sets I
don't see that they have anything to offer. They have indeed passed into
history. A couple of years is a long time in this business. What are you
going to call these new Piezo compatible UT based inks? Things are getting a
bit confusing with all the inks choices and a new distinctive name would
help.

Martin

Hi Guys,
 
Want to move to BW printing and was wondering if there are any OEM
manufactured Grey / black inks in the market like Epson or Canon and also
what manufacturer (Lyson / MIS / Piezography) has the best inks...
 
Sam


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 7:39 AM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] New PiezoBW upgrade / MIS


>  What are you
> going to call these new Piezo compatible UT based inks? Things are getting
a
> bit confusing with all the inks choices and a new distinctive name would
> help.

How about calling them "Piezo Compatible UT based inks", or if you like, the
PCUTBI Range of B&W inks.

I make no charge for this superb marketing suggestion.

Richard


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Martin,

I'm not sure when MIS will have the new monotone inks on the website.  There
are 2 groups -- plug & play (no workflow, simplicity-first) inks and
FS/Piezo-driver compatible inks.   I MIS is in a big rush to have easy to
use inks to compete with HP -- the real serious, new competitor out there.
Since these inks are all in the UT family, they will all have the same fade
resistance -- which is state-of-the-art, "Class A."

I'm also not sure what MIS will call the inks.  I think stressing the family
group -- the Ultra Tones -- might be useful due the common base and
characteristics.  Given the lower lightfastness of the FS ink, I think that
name will be avoided.  However, I'm sure MIS will note the compatibility
with the FS/Piezo workflows in text that describes the inks.

With respect to fade testing, what I would like to do is test the top
pigment ink families against the new HP.  I've been a little slow on that
front due to other activities and, frankly, the fading issue has become much
less important with the newest pigments.  The UT and PT inks are so good it
takes a very long time to see any changes at all.

I consider the Ultra Tones, PiezoTone WN & Selenium, Eboni, Museum,
UltraChrome Matte, Photo, and Light black inks to be so good I'm not sure
fade testing proves much.  It is unlikely fading will ever be a problem with
these inks.

The color pigments are the ones that fade relatively quickly.  So, the more
color, the more likely there will be visible fading.  For this, just look at
Wilhelm's rating of the UC inks in color versus B&W.  Frankly, the ">100
years" for the Epson UC "B&W," even with the relatively large amount of
color pigs the Epson driver puts in them, hints at just how good these black
& gray inks are.  With the B&W inks that use the least amount of color to
achieve neutral tone (UT, PT & ImagePrint), that could easily read, ">200
years" or "> the Epson Archival inkset."

I'm reluctant to post long fade tests that show only 0.01 differences.  They
are so minor that claiming the UT inks are the best based on that small a
difference might be deceptive.  Other factors might have caused it.  As a
consequence, I'm inclined to group inks that are roughly equal.

The "state-of-the-art" B&W inks are the UT & PT inksets, and UC black & gray
pigments.  (I have not tested the Septones yet.)  These are what some might
call "Class A" (>100 year), archival materials.

Like Wilhelm, I'm suspicious that tests that purport to show lives beyond
this or differences among this group might be pushing the test results
beyond what is reasonable.   Especially for those of us who cannot control
humidity or heat, we may be at the limits of what simple bright-light
accelerated fade testing can reliably predict.  Other factors that are
harder to test are probably going to be the limiting factors (like the paper
life, pollution sensitivity, resistance to physical damage, and who knows
what else).

But, I will continue my testing where it seems relevant.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com
______________________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 11:39 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] New PiezoBW upgrade / MIS



* -----Original Message-----
* From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...]
* Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 11:07 PM
* To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* Subject: RE: [Digital BW] New PiezoBW upgrade / MIS
*
*
* Martin,
*
* You wrote, in part:
*
* >Even though they are more expensive I personally prefer the Selenium
* >PiezoTone over the MIS FS and they are much more fade and warm shift
* >resistant.
*
* I have sent MIS the formulas for upgraded Piezo-compatible
* inks that are based on the Ultra Tone inks -- which is
* becoming a family of inks now. They are state-of-the-art, as
* lightfast as the PiezoTone inks, and RC/glossy paper
* compatible also (like the Epson UltraChrome inks).  There is
* a neutral/"selenium" toned version and a warm, pure carbon
* version.  Tones of ink between these 2 can be mixed easily.
* In fact, if one wants different tones in different parts
* density scale (for example, warmer highlights than midtones),
* the 3 midtone inks need not be the same mix of the two
* monotone versions that now exist.  (I'm sure MIS will mix a
* medium warm version if people want it.)

Paul,

I know this has been in the works for awhile. When do you think MIS will
have them available for sale?

I was also looking though the Files section today for fade comparisons and
we don't seem to have any info up on the Eboni or the UT inks. I know you
posted some data when Eboni was first out. Can you copy me so that I can add
the data to the collection? It would also be great to have a fade comparison
between this new UT base ink set, PiezoTone, Septone and FS as a control if
you can fit such a trial into your schedule.
*
* I also have new 1160 curves for the UT monotone inks.  For
* the 1160 I have the usual fully-partitioned curves for EEM
* and PhotoRag.  For EEM I also have a "mildly" partitioned
* curve that may be more tolerant of printer differences, as
* well as a grayscale curve and Transfer Function to control
* the inks.  (The grayscale curve/TF print rougher.)
* Additionally, I will soon have new curves for the 3000.
*
* So, as far as I'm concerned the FS inks are history.

Yep, they fulfilled the need for a non-clogging ink set when they came out
but at this point with the greater stability of the UT and PT ink sets I
don't see that they have anything to offer. They have indeed passed into
history. A couple of years is a long time in this business. What are you
going to call these new Piezo compatible UT based inks? Things are getting a
bit confusing with all the inks choices and a new distinctive name would
help.

Martin



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- Include your full name with your message.
- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
- Complete your Yahoo profile.
- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

* -----Original Message-----
* From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@verizon.net] 
* Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 9:01 AM
* To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* Subject: RE: [Digital BW] New PiezoBW upgrade / MIS
* 
* 
* Martin,
* 
* I'm not sure when MIS will have the new monotone inks on the 
* website.  There are 2 groups -- plug & play (no workflow, 
* simplicity-first) inks and
* FS/Piezo-driver compatible inks.

Paul,

Well keep us posted if you hear anything. Until they make them available I
think the PiezoTones are the preferred choice for those wanting to use the
R9/Piezo plug-in or the new Piezo ICC profile software given the superior
fade resistance. I am sure MIS has inventory issues as well and may want to
run out their stock of FS before moving on.


*   I MIS is in a big rush to 
* have easy to
* use inks to compete with HP -- the real serious, new 
* competitor out there.

I have not seen any HP output so far. I seem to recall that someone posted
that the example they saw was not very good. Do you think their products
will be of interest to serious users? Perhaps like the Epson UC prints a
good RIP solution will be necessary with HP's inks.

* Since these inks are all in the UT 
* family, they will all have the same fade resistance -- which 
* is state-of-the-art, "Class A."
* 
* I'm also not sure what MIS will call the inks.  I think 
* stressing the family group -- the Ultra Tones -- might be 
* useful due the common base and characteristics.  Given the 
* lower lightfastness of the FS ink, I think that name will be 
* avoided.  However, I'm sure MIS will note the compatibility 
* with the FS/Piezo workflows in text that describes the inks.
* 
* With respect to fade testing, what I would like to do is test 
* the top pigment ink families against the new HP.  I've been a 
* little slow on that front due to other activities and, 
* frankly, the fading issue has become much less important with 
* the newest pigments.  The UT and PT inks are so good it takes 
* a very long time to see any changes at all.
* 
* I consider the Ultra Tones, PiezoTone WN & Selenium, Eboni, 
* Museum, UltraChrome Matte, Photo, and Light black inks to be 
* so good I'm not sure fade testing proves much.  It is 
* unlikely fading will ever be a problem with these inks.

I agree. With the "Class A" inks I think we have reached a point where
fading is a non-issue. I guess the only real concerns are new inks as they
come on the market, like the HP and Septones. Do they fall into the new or
the old class of inks or somewhere in between? As you know I find the
Septone software approach appealing but the longevity of their new inks has
not been independently tested.
* 
* The color pigments are the ones that fade relatively quickly. 
*  So, the more color, the more likely there will be visible 
* fading.  For this, just look at Wilhelm's rating of the UC 
* inks in color versus B&W.  Frankly, the ">100 years" for the 
* Epson UC "B&W," even with the relatively large amount of 
* color pigs the Epson driver puts in them, hints at just how 
* good these black & gray inks are.  With the B&W inks that use 
* the least amount of color to achieve neutral tone (UT, PT & 
* ImagePrint), that could easily read, ">200 years" or "> the 
* Epson Archival inkset."

I was talking with Roy yesterday about this and I have to agree. Even though
we don't know what Epson is using for a pigment in their UC black inks the
expectation for neutral prints made with these inks is most likely as good
as the grayscale ink sets. If there are differences we will not be around
long enough to find out, which should be plenty long for any artist!
* 
* I'm reluctant to post long fade tests that show only 0.01 
* differences.  They are so minor that claiming the UT inks are 
* the best based on that small a difference might be deceptive. 
*  Other factors might have caused it.  As a consequence, I'm 
* inclined to group inks that are roughly equal.

Once again I agree. Density differences of a few hundredths is equal to the
uncertainty of the densitometers we have available. Even if we did have one
of the high end instruments that was that reliable, such small differences
are not discernable to the human eye in the 1.6+ range.
* 
* The "state-of-the-art" B&W inks are the UT & PT inksets, and 
* UC black & gray pigments.  (I have not tested the Septones 
* yet.)  These are what some might call "Class A" (>100 year), 
* archival materials.

As I recall you did test Eboni against PiezoTone Museum Black and Portfolio
Black and found that Eboni was as fade resistant as the Museum Black and had
the greater density of the Portfolio Black. If I have this wrong please let
me know.
* 
* Like Wilhelm, I'm suspicious that tests that purport to show 
* lives beyond this or differences among this group might be 
* pushing the test results
* beyond what is reasonable.   Especially for those of us who 
* cannot control
* humidity or heat, we may be at the limits of what simple 
* bright-light accelerated fade testing can reliably predict.  
* Other factors that are harder to test are probably going to 
* be the limiting factors (like the paper life, pollution 
* sensitivity, resistance to physical damage, and who knows what else).

There are so many real life variable that you really cannot make accurate
predictions on the life of any of the inks except to say that they will last
for a very long time and are indeed "archival." Under optimum conditions on
quality paper I think prints with these inks should last indefinitely.

At this point I think we have good information on the inks and the
requirements of quality paper are well known. The one area that we do not
know much about it the paper coatings. The recent reports of yellow marks on
Hahnemuhle paper from what sounds like out-gassing of the adhesive on the
packaging tape is of concern. This is not just an issue of poor packaging
but an indication that the paper is susceptible to environmental chemical
damage. I wish that we had some guidelines to know what chemicals need to be
avoided.
* 
* But, I will continue my testing where it seems relevant.
* 
Well I cannot thank you enough for your efforts to date in this regard.
Without your diligent testing over the last few years we would still be very
much in the dark responding to rumor and speculation.

Martin

* 
* 
* 
* 
* -----Original Message-----
* From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
* Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 11:39 PM
* To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* Subject: RE: [Digital BW] New PiezoBW upgrade / MIS
* 
* 
* 
* * -----Original Message-----
* * From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...]
* * Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 11:07 PM
* * To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* * Subject: RE: [Digital BW] New PiezoBW upgrade / MIS
* *
* *
* * Martin,
* *
* * You wrote, in part:
* *
* * >Even though they are more expensive I personally prefer 
* the Selenium
* * >PiezoTone over the MIS FS and they are much more fade and 
* warm shift
* * >resistant.
* *
* * I have sent MIS the formulas for upgraded Piezo-compatible
* * inks that are based on the Ultra Tone inks -- which is
* * becoming a family of inks now. They are state-of-the-art, as
* * lightfast as the PiezoTone inks, and RC/glossy paper
* * compatible also (like the Epson UltraChrome inks).  There is
* * a neutral/"selenium" toned version and a warm, pure carbon
* * version.  Tones of ink between these 2 can be mixed easily.
* * In fact, if one wants different tones in different parts
* * density scale (for example, warmer highlights than midtones),
* * the 3 midtone inks need not be the same mix of the two
* * monotone versions that now exist.  (I'm sure MIS will mix a
* * medium warm version if people want it.)
* 
* Paul,
* 
* I know this has been in the works for awhile. When do you 
* think MIS will have them available for sale?
* 
* I was also looking though the Files section today for fade 
* comparisons and we don't seem to have any info up on the 
* Eboni or the UT inks. I know you posted some data when Eboni 
* was first out. Can you copy me so that I can add the data to 
* the collection? It would also be great to have a fade 
* comparison between this new UT base ink set, PiezoTone, 
* Septone and FS as a control if you can fit such a trial into 
* your schedule.
* *
* * I also have new 1160 curves for the UT monotone inks.  For
* * the 1160 I have the usual fully-partitioned curves for EEM
* * and PhotoRag.  For EEM I also have a "mildly" partitioned
* * curve that may be more tolerant of printer differences, as
* * well as a grayscale curve and Transfer Function to control
* * the inks.  (The grayscale curve/TF print rougher.)
* * Additionally, I will soon have new curves for the 3000.
* *
* * So, as far as I'm concerned the FS inks are history.
* 
* Yep, they fulfilled the need for a non-clogging ink set when 
* they came out but at this point with the greater stability of 
* the UT and PT ink sets I don't see that they have anything to 
* offer. They have indeed passed into history. A couple of 
* years is a long time in this business. What are you going to 
* call these new Piezo compatible UT based inks? Things are 
* getting a bit confusing with all the inks choices and a new 
* distinctive name would help.
* 
* Martin
* 
* 
* 
* Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, 
* Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being 
* updated. The page is at:
* 
* http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
* 
* If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or 
* you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership 
* preferences by visiting this same page.
* 
* Please follow these basic guidelines:
* - Include your full name with your message.
* - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
* - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
* messages to keep them short.
* - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the 
* subject header.
* - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
* - Complete your Yahoo profile.
* - Before posting a question, search the message archives and 
* the various resources on the homepage.
* 
* 
* 
* 
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
* http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
* 
* 
* 
* 
* 
* 
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>[snip]
>Paul [Roark],
>[snip]
>*
>* But, I will continue my testing where it seems relevant.
>*
>Well I cannot thank you enough for your efforts to date in this 
>regard. Without your diligent testing over the last few years we 
>would still be very much in the dark responding to rumor and 
>speculation.
>
>Martin [Wesley]

Amen. And while I'm at it, I want to add my thanks to Martin and 
Antonis for this list. I can't imagine trying to cope without it and 
Paul's work.
--
Sam McCandless

Martin,

>I have not seen any HP output so far. I seem to recall that
>someone posted that the example they saw was not very good.
>Do you think their products will be of interest to serious users? ...

I have my doubts.  The dye solution for longevity is to use special paper.
With, for example, cotton paper I've heard the life of the ink is very
short.  I hope to get some samples and test it on both the special paper and
cotton.


* From: Paul Roark ...
*...
* I consider the Ultra Tones, PiezoTone WN & Selenium, Eboni,
* Museum, UltraChrome Matte, Photo, and Light black inks to be
* so good I'm not sure fade testing proves much.  It is
* unlikely fading will ever be a problem with these inks.

>I agree. With the "Class A" inks I think we have reached a
>point where fading is a non-issue.

>I guess the only real concerns are new inks as they
>come on the market, like the HP and Septones. ...

Agreed, and I'll get to testing them when time permits.

>As I recall you did test Eboni against PiezoTone Museum Black
>and Portfolio Black and found that Eboni was as fade resistant
>as the Museum Black and had the greater density of the Portfolio Black.

I think Eboni and Museum black are the same ink.  They test the same, at
least.

I'm not sure what Portfolio black is.  If it is not the original PT black,
then I might never have tested it.

>... "archival." Under optimum conditions on
>quality paper I think prints with these inks should last indefinitely.

Probably true, but "optimum conditions" may be hard to achieve.  However,
dark storage away from pollution (acidic containers, city air ...?) and at
reasonable temperature and humidity will probably give the prints on good
paper lives that are measured in centuries.

>The one area that we do not know much about it the paper coatings.
>The recent reports of yellow marks on Hahnemuhle paper from what
>sounds like out-gassing of the adhesive on the
>packaging tape is of concern. This is not just an issue of poor
>packaging but an indication that the paper is susceptible to
>environmental chemical damage. I wish that we had some guidelines
>to know what chemicals need to be avoided.

I agree.  My sense of it is that Epson has done more of the chemical testing
due to its fiasco with the dyes and ozone.

Truth is, I wish we could print on uncoated cotton paper -- and we're
getting close.  As the printer dot size decreases and with pure pigment inks
the "grain" of the uncoated paper is decreasing enough to make it a viable
option -- if you have the right inkset and controls.  Part of the equation
is to avoid light inks.  The tiny piles of pigments modern printers and inks
leave on paper stay put much better and do not wick out on those paper
fibers the way the older inks do -- but only if there is not too much base
to carry them out of the fibers.

In fact, the C82 with the "no workflow" inkset is very smooth on Arches Hot
Press.  The "no workflow" inks are more than just getting us to simple
workflows.  Unfortunately, the dmax with this printer and that paper is too
low to be of interest as a fine art medium.  It might be OK for the ultimate
in printing old family photos where print life is more important than the
depth of black.

The 1280 with the "no-workflow" inks is still flooding the paper and causing
a blotchy/grainy image we have come to expect with un-coated paper, at least
when it's used with no curves.  However, the dmax on Hot Press is up to 1.46
with Eboni -- getting close and probably fine for old photo reproductions.
I'll try to work up some curves for this combination that attempt to hold
back the light inks as much as possible to stop the paper flooding.
However, Epson's built-in cross-overs might get in the way.  With a RIP it
could probably be done.

At any rate, we are getting close to what I'd like to see -- carbon (or
neutral-toned carbon) pigs on un-coated cotton paper.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Martin,
> 
> >I have not seen any HP output so far. I seem to recall that
> >someone posted that the example they saw was not very good.
> >Do you think their products will be of interest to serious users? ...
> 
> I have my doubts.  The dye solution for longevity is to use special paper.
> With, for example, cotton paper I've heard the life of the ink is very
> short.  I hope to get some samples and test it on both the special paper and
> cotton.
> 

I saw a B&W sample from the HP.  If you can put up with the special
paper and only letter size paper, print quality looks pretty nice.  
However when I was able to see it in different lighting it suffered from
quite a lot of metamerism.

....


> 
> The 1280 with the "no-workflow" inks is still flooding the paper and causing
> a blotchy/grainy image we have come to expect with un-coated paper, at least

I would think that some of the paper type selections in the Epson driver
would reduce the ink limits.

> when it's used with no curves.  However, the dmax on Hot Press is up to 1.46
> with Eboni -- getting close and probably fine for old photo reproductions.
> I'll try to work up some curves for this combination that attempt to hold
> back the light inks as much as possible to stop the paper flooding.
> However, Epson's built-in cross-overs might get in the way.  With a RIP it
> could probably be done.
> 
> At any rate, we are getting close to what I'd like to see -- carbon (or
> neutral-toned carbon) pigs on un-coated cotton paper.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

Roy
www.harrington.com

* -----Original Message-----
* From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@verizon.net] 
* Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 11:06 AM
* To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* Subject: RE: [Digital BW] New PiezoBW upgrade / MIS
* 
* 
* Martin,
* 
* >I have not seen any HP output so far. I seem to recall that someone 
* >posted that the example they saw was not very good. Do you 
* think their 
* >products will be of interest to serious users? ...
* 
* I have my doubts.  The dye solution for longevity is to use 
* special paper. With, for example, cotton paper I've heard the 
* life of the ink is very short.  I hope to get some samples 
* and test it on both the special paper and cotton.

Paul,

If HP is using dye inks I doubt that they will be much of a threat to Epson
in the fine arts market but then again we are a tiny portion of the
business. The public is not likely to get upset over the short life of their
prints for another decade.
* 
* 
* >As I recall you did test Eboni against PiezoTone Museum Black and 
* >Portfolio Black and found that Eboni was as fade resistant as the 
* >Museum Black and had the greater density of the Portfolio Black.
* 
* I think Eboni and Museum black are the same ink.  They test 
* the same, at least.

Do you recall what Dmax readings you got? I am getting Dmax values with
Eboni in the mid 1.6 range using the plug-in. I suspect the higher Dmax of
the Epson driver will be one of the main reasons to upgrade to the ICC
Piezo.
* 
* I'm not sure what Portfolio black is.  If it is not the 
* original PT black, then I might never have tested it.

It is Museum Black with 8% black metal pigment added. Jon reported Dmax
values of 1.72 with a 5.23 % fade for Museum Black and 1.78 with a 7.30%
fade for Portfolio Black. No data on Black Black but we know it can fade out
very quickly. For Epson's Matte Black UC he got 1.66 with a 6.02% fade.
MIS-FS Black 1.73 with a 13.87% fade. Original Piezo/Sundance 1.72 with a
15.12% fade. This was all data from his 1000 hour Xenon lamp test. He has it
posted at:

http://www.inkjetmall.com/store/info/1000-hours.html

I have suggested he update it by adding info on the MIS-UT and Septone inks.

The Septone wedges I received had a Dmax of about 1.72

* 
* >... "archival." Under optimum conditions on
* >quality paper I think prints with these inks should last 
* indefinitely.
* 
* Probably true, but "optimum conditions" may be hard to 
* achieve.  However, dark storage away from pollution (acidic 
* containers, city air ...?) and at reasonable temperature and 
* humidity will probably give the prints on good paper lives 
* that are measured in centuries.

That will be plenty. I have seen few photographs from the 19th century that
have not degraded in some way.
* 
* >The one area that we do not know much about it the paper 
* coatings. The 
* >recent reports of yellow marks on Hahnemuhle paper from what sounds 
* >like out-gassing of the adhesive on the packaging tape is of 
* concern. 
* >This is not just an issue of poor packaging but an 
* indication that the 
* >paper is susceptible to environmental chemical damage. I 
* wish that we 
* >had some guidelines to know what chemicals need to be avoided.
* 
* I agree.  My sense of it is that Epson has done more of the 
* chemical testing due to its fiasco with the dyes and ozone.
* 
* Truth is, I wish we could print on uncoated cotton paper -- 
* and we're getting close.  As the printer dot size decreases 
* and with pure pigment inks the "grain" of the uncoated paper 
* is decreasing enough to make it a viable option -- if you 
* have the right inkset and controls.  Part of the equation is 
* to avoid light inks.  The tiny piles of pigments modern 
* printers and inks leave on paper stay put much better and do 
* not wick out on those paper fibers the way the older inks do 
* -- but only if there is not too much base to carry them out 
* of the fibers.
* 
* In fact, the C82 with the "no workflow" inkset is very smooth 
* on Arches Hot Press.  The "no workflow" inks are more than 
* just getting us to simple workflows.  Unfortunately, the dmax 
* with this printer and that paper is too low to be of interest 
* as a fine art medium.  It might be OK for the ultimate in 
* printing old family photos where print life is more important 
* than the depth of black.
* 
* The 1280 with the "no-workflow" inks is still flooding the 
* paper and causing a blotchy/grainy image we have come to 
* expect with un-coated paper, at least when it's used with no 
* curves.  However, the dmax on Hot Press is up to 1.46 with 
* Eboni -- getting close and probably fine for old photo 
* reproductions. I'll try to work up some curves for this 
* combination that attempt to hold back the light inks as much 
* as possible to stop the paper flooding. However, Epson's 
* built-in cross-overs might get in the way.  With a RIP it 
* could probably be done.
* 
* At any rate, we are getting close to what I'd like to see -- 
* carbon (or neutral-toned carbon) pigs on un-coated cotton paper.

Well that is certainly intriguing and will represent the ultimate archival
solution. I don't know that you would ever equal the density range and
resolution of coated papers though. I would think that coming up with an
"archival" coating would be a reasonable expectation. Unfortunately all of
that knowledge will remain closely guarded industrial secrets just as the
silver paper coatings have or at least information not readily available to
the public.

Martin Wesley
http://www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

Martin,

>* I think Eboni and Museum black are the same ink.  They test
>* the same, at least.

>Do you recall what Dmax readings you got? I am getting Dmax values with
>Eboni in the mid 1.6 range using the plug-in.
>I suspect the higher Dmax of the Epson driver will be one of
>the main reasons to upgrade to the ICC Piezo.

Usually I see about a 1.68 with the 1280 and EEM.  I'm really not sure about
the accuracy of the densitometers at that end of the scale.  I was seeing
almost a 0.08 (average) dmax difference between the Piezo and Epson drivers
with my 1160 recently.  So, dmax is clearly one reason to use the Epson
driver.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

>Transporting Film and Photographic Equipment
>
>Photographic Equipment
>
>You may carry one (1) bag of photographic equipment in addition to 
>one (1) carry-on and one (1) personal item through the screening 
>checkpoint. [snip]

The source of the quote above

<http://www.tsa.gov/public/interapp/editorial/editorial_1248.xml>

includes a link to a page

<http://www.tsa.gov/public/interapp/editorial/editorial_1035.xml>

about transporting film specifically. (When practical I'd still 
prefer to have B&H ship film to me wherever I'm going, and I even try 
to have it developed before I get back on a plane.)

I don't see a date on either of these pages. But after clicking on 
"Printable Version" in their upper right-hand corners, I got pages 
good for printing via the "Print Preview" function in my browser (IE 
5.1.7 for the Mac). And because I turned "headers and footers" on in 
Print Preview, IE added near the corners of the printout its date and 
time, as well as branding it as from the TSA site and giving its URL. 
Some such authenticated printout might be a good thing to take to the 
airport, at least while the additional-carryon rule is still a new 
policy.
--
Sam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

While you have a legal right to request hand inspection of film (it's
specified in the Regs) the inspectors seem to be focused on film
speed. iso 400 or less and they really push you to have it x-rayed.
So, I always carry one roll of iso 1600 and tell them "It's different
film speeds but some is 1600" and they hand inspect it with no grumbles. 

Bob Michaels

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Sam McCandless
<samcc@v...> wrote:

> >Transporting Film and Photographic Equipment
> >
> >Photographic Equipment
> >
> >You may carry one (1) bag of photographic equipment in addition to 
> >one (1) carry-on and one (1) personal item through the screening 
> >checkpoint. [snip]
> 
> The source of the quote above
> 
> <http://www.tsa.gov/public/interapp/editorial/editorial_1248.xml>
> 
> includes a link to a page
> 
> <http://www.tsa.gov/public/interapp/editorial/editorial_1035.xml>
> 
> about transporting film specifically. (When practical I'd still 
> prefer to have B&H ship film to me wherever I'm going, and I even try 
> to have it developed before I get back on a plane.)
> 
> I don't see a date on either of these pages. But after clicking on 
> "Printable Version" in their upper right-hand corners, I got pages 
> good for printing via the "Print Preview" function in my browser (IE 
> 5.1.7 for the Mac). And because I turned "headers and footers" on in 
> Print Preview, IE added near the corners of the printout its date and 
> time, as well as branding it as from the TSA site and giving its URL. 
> Some such authenticated printout might be a good thing to take to the 
> airport, at least while the additional-carryon rule is still a new 
> policy.
> --
> Sam
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I can add a little bit to this discussion having just returned from 
three weeks in Europe.

Portland OR PDX arrived with 75 rolls of film in plastic cans packed 
in a small soft side cooler with the 800 1600 and IR packed in a 
baggie if need be. Told the screener I had High speed film and would 
like a hand check they placed the cooler on top of the Xray machine 
we went thru they walked us over to a table a nice lady opened the 
cooler moved a few of the rools around opened a few of the cans ran a 
swab around every where in the cooler and across some of the film 
cassettes. Put the swab in a sniffer and smiled and sent us on our 
way.

Chicago IL 2 hour lay over didn't leave the secure part of the 
airport no checks just boarded the next plane.

Heathrow London, Made it through customs in about 1/2 hour very nice 
people no checks.

Leaving London on the Chunnel Train Screener about 40 rolls exposed 
and balance unused would not hand check said anything under 3200 ASA 
had to go through no exceptions said she could show me the Kodak 
Bulletin I figure why agrue and put the stuff through the machine.

Arrived Brussels for transfer No check only customs took less then 
1/2 hour.

We left Germany from Frankfurt airport 80+ Rolls exposed still in 
very swelled up little cooler NO HAND CHECK ALLOWED high speed 
included all film had to go through scanner. After going through the 
scanner we were taken to a side room with a sniffer and all the 
camera gear in both bags got wiped the film was checked simular. The 
agent was pleasent and matter of factly. When do he wished us well 
and we boarded.

Arrived home customs 1+ hour (long lines) took film to local pro lab 
and everything can out just fine Slides Prints B&W. I didn't use the 
IR but the two rolls of 1600 Neopan I shot came out exceptional and 
are some of the best negs from the trip. SO two passes thru XRAY did 
not do any noticable damage to my 1600 ASA film.

But I still would without being a butthead try to limit the number of 
times any film is Xrayed just to be safe. The operators have NO way 
to DIAL UP the machines but they can run things through mulitiple 
time In Portland they said that if they could tell what something was 
the second time thru it would be hand checked as that was their 
policy and they found it just as fast.

DO NOT LOCK YOUR BAGS they will cut the locks on check luggage to 
check if they want we used nylon wire ties as they were sercure to 
keep the bags closed and would stop any pilfering we would also know 
if they had been opened as we used colored ones and if they open your 
bag offically they tag it so if no tag and cut wire tie then a thief 
would have done it and we would know as soon as we picked up the bag. 
THAT is good as once you leave the airport making a claim is MUCH 
harder. I carried a couple of extra ties in my bag and it worked real 
well we did see a couple of bags that had had their locks cut. They 
were tagged.

BE NICE to the people and they will be nicer to you BE a GROUCH and 
get back what you project.

IMHO Mark W.

At 09:47 AM 11/23/03 -0800, you wrote:
> >Transporting Film and Photographic Equipment
> >
> >Photographic Equipment
> >
> >You may carry one (1) bag of photographic equipment in addition to
> >one (1) carry-on and one (1) personal item through the screening
> >checkpoint. [snip]
>
>The source of the quote above
>
><http://www.tsa.gov/public/interapp/editorial/editorial_1248.xml>
>
>includes a link to a page
>
><http://www.tsa.gov/public/interapp/editorial/editorial_1035.xml>
>
>about transporting film specifically. (When practical I'd still
>prefer to have B&H ship film to me wherever I'm going, and I even try
>to have it developed before I get back on a plane.)
>
>I don't see a date on either of these pages. But after clicking on
>"Printable Version" in their upper right-hand corners, I got pages
>good for printing via the "Print Preview" function in my browser (IE
>5.1.7 for the Mac). And because I turned "headers and footers" on in
>Print Preview, IE added near the corners of the printout its date and
>time, as well as branding it as from the TSA site and giving its URL.
>Some such authenticated printout might be a good thing to take to the
>airport, at least while the additional-carryon rule is still a new
>policy.
>--
>Sam
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

Sam,

Thanks  -  one other thing - don't leave ANY tools in your camera bag - 
lost nice miniature pliers to the gate inspectors last time.  What was I 
going to do with them?  Tools is tools they said.

AZ


Build a Lookaround!
The Lookaround Book, 2nd ed.
NOW SHIPPING
http://www.panoramacamera.us

True.  I have a close friend who is a blues musician -- he uses a Sears
Craftsman socket for a guitar slide.  It was confiscated, as a "tool".  No
problem, I'd like them to be thorough.  With all the possible stuff they
see, I don't think thought is in the equation.

>>Sam,

Thanks  -  one other thing - don't leave ANY tools in your camera bag -
lost nice miniature pliers to the gate inspectors last time.  What was I
going to do with them?  Tools is tools they said.

AZ<<

You will note that the TSA document refers only to how many bags you 
can check THRU SECURITY. It has no bearing on what the individual 
airline will allow onboard as far as number of carry-on bags is 
concerned. The TSA document says something to the effect that you 
should check with the individual airline about their restrictions; 
that is, how many bags you can carry on and how big they can be.

At 07:44 PM 11/23/03 -0600, you wrote:
>True.  I have a close friend who is a blues musician -- he uses a Sears
>Craftsman socket for a guitar slide.  It was confiscated, as a "tool".  No
>problem, I'd like them to be thorough.  With all the possible stuff they
>see, I don't think thought is in the equation.
>
> >>Sam,
>
>Thanks  -  one other thing - don't leave ANY tools in your camera bag -
>lost nice miniature pliers to the gate inspectors last time.  What was I
>going to do with them?  Tools is tools they said.

Sam,

They got his slide but let him keep his "axe"?

Once out of Albuquerque I saw a guy with large mounted, Mexican cattle 
horns - sharp as hell and almost four feet across - pass through the 
inspection with no problem.  I thought he was going to gore somebody 
loading them into the overhead.

AZ

Build a Lookaround!
The Lookaround Book, 2nd ed.
NOW SHIPPING
http://www.panoramacamera.us