Digital BW, The Print

* -----Original Message-----
* From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@verizon.net] 
* Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 11:06 AM
* To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
* Subject: RE: [Digital BW] New PiezoBW upgrade / MIS
* 
* 
* Martin,
* 
* >I have not seen any HP output so far. I seem to recall that someone 
* >posted that the example they saw was not very good. Do you 
* think their 
* >products will be of interest to serious users? ...
* 
* I have my doubts.  The dye solution for longevity is to use 
* special paper. With, for example, cotton paper I've heard the 
* life of the ink is very short.  I hope to get some samples 
* and test it on both the special paper and cotton.

Paul,

If HP is using dye inks I doubt that they will be much of a threat to Epson
in the fine arts market but then again we are a tiny portion of the
business. The public is not likely to get upset over the short life of their
prints for another decade.
* 
* 
* >As I recall you did test Eboni against PiezoTone Museum Black and 
* >Portfolio Black and found that Eboni was as fade resistant as the 
* >Museum Black and had the greater density of the Portfolio Black.
* 
* I think Eboni and Museum black are the same ink.  They test 
* the same, at least.

Do you recall what Dmax readings you got? I am getting Dmax values with
Eboni in the mid 1.6 range using the plug-in. I suspect the higher Dmax of
the Epson driver will be one of the main reasons to upgrade to the ICC
Piezo.
* 
* I'm not sure what Portfolio black is.  If it is not the 
* original PT black, then I might never have tested it.

It is Museum Black with 8% black metal pigment added. Jon reported Dmax
values of 1.72 with a 5.23 % fade for Museum Black and 1.78 with a 7.30%
fade for Portfolio Black. No data on Black Black but we know it can fade out
very quickly. For Epson's Matte Black UC he got 1.66 with a 6.02% fade.
MIS-FS Black 1.73 with a 13.87% fade. Original Piezo/Sundance 1.72 with a
15.12% fade. This was all data from his 1000 hour Xenon lamp test. He has it
posted at:

http://www.inkjetmall.com/store/info/1000-hours.html

I have suggested he update it by adding info on the MIS-UT and Septone inks.

The Septone wedges I received had a Dmax of about 1.72

* 
* >... "archival." Under optimum conditions on
* >quality paper I think prints with these inks should last 
* indefinitely.
* 
* Probably true, but "optimum conditions" may be hard to 
* achieve.  However, dark storage away from pollution (acidic 
* containers, city air ...?) and at reasonable temperature and 
* humidity will probably give the prints on good paper lives 
* that are measured in centuries.

That will be plenty. I have seen few photographs from the 19th century that
have not degraded in some way.
* 
* >The one area that we do not know much about it the paper 
* coatings. The 
* >recent reports of yellow marks on Hahnemuhle paper from what sounds 
* >like out-gassing of the adhesive on the packaging tape is of 
* concern. 
* >This is not just an issue of poor packaging but an 
* indication that the 
* >paper is susceptible to environmental chemical damage. I 
* wish that we 
* >had some guidelines to know what chemicals need to be avoided.
* 
* I agree.  My sense of it is that Epson has done more of the 
* chemical testing due to its fiasco with the dyes and ozone.
* 
* Truth is, I wish we could print on uncoated cotton paper -- 
* and we're getting close.  As the printer dot size decreases 
* and with pure pigment inks the "grain" of the uncoated paper 
* is decreasing enough to make it a viable option -- if you 
* have the right inkset and controls.  Part of the equation is 
* to avoid light inks.  The tiny piles of pigments modern 
* printers and inks leave on paper stay put much better and do 
* not wick out on those paper fibers the way the older inks do 
* -- but only if there is not too much base to carry them out 
* of the fibers.
* 
* In fact, the C82 with the "no workflow" inkset is very smooth 
* on Arches Hot Press.  The "no workflow" inks are more than 
* just getting us to simple workflows.  Unfortunately, the dmax 
* with this printer and that paper is too low to be of interest 
* as a fine art medium.  It might be OK for the ultimate in 
* printing old family photos where print life is more important 
* than the depth of black.
* 
* The 1280 with the "no-workflow" inks is still flooding the 
* paper and causing a blotchy/grainy image we have come to 
* expect with un-coated paper, at least when it's used with no 
* curves.  However, the dmax on Hot Press is up to 1.46 with 
* Eboni -- getting close and probably fine for old photo 
* reproductions. I'll try to work up some curves for this 
* combination that attempt to hold back the light inks as much 
* as possible to stop the paper flooding. However, Epson's 
* built-in cross-overs might get in the way.  With a RIP it 
* could probably be done.
* 
* At any rate, we are getting close to what I'd like to see -- 
* carbon (or neutral-toned carbon) pigs on un-coated cotton paper.

Well that is certainly intriguing and will represent the ultimate archival
solution. I don't know that you would ever equal the density range and
resolution of coated papers though. I would think that coming up with an
"archival" coating would be a reasonable expectation. Unfortunately all of
that knowledge will remain closely guarded industrial secrets just as the
silver paper coatings have or at least information not readily available to
the public.

Martin Wesley
http://www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html