Digital BW, The Print

David,

Thanks for the updating. I am aware of the low end deficiencys
(blacks) of CRTs but I was unaware of advances in LCDs in respect to
max illumination capabilities. That they now excede the brightest CRTs
is interesting. The gamma info is interesting too. I'm not
particularly surprised that it all has to be referenced to various and
sundry adjustments,profiling etc. Your reference to reflectance versus
luminance is what throws me. I suppose it's all relative since one can
put as bright a light as desired on a finished print and thereby match
the upper end of the scale with whichever screen is used. There are
many ways to skin the cat. 
Best.

Duane



-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks"
<fotografx@m...> wrote:
> Duane,
> 
> A typical LCD has a maximum luminance these days of around 250
cd/m2, but
> usually adjusted for ideal photographic image display LCD¹s are
choked down
> to between 150 and 180 cd/m2, with a black point between 0.05 and 0.09.
> CRT¹s after calibration and profiling will have a luminance range
from 0.07
> to 0.90.  A fine print¹s density range is much closer, ideally
slightly more
> measured with a densitometer than the range of a CRT, but very much less
> than the range of an LCD. However, on a perceptual basis because a
print is
> viewed by usually less than ideal illumination (diffuse) the
perceived tonal
> range is even closer to that of a CRT because the CRT display is
projected
> rather than reflected light (unless contaminated by high levels of
ambient
> illumination).
> 
> Additionally the standard 2.2 gamma setting for displays produces a very
> different midpoint gray value between a CRT, which closely matches a
print
> midpoint gray, compared to an LCD which with its longer luminance
range has
> a much brighter midpoint gray. So far as I know Barco is the only LCD
> offered which has a gamma correction function that adjust for this
midpoint
> gray discrepancy.
> 
> Regards, David B. Brooks
> Shutterbug Magazine
> E-mail: fotografx@m...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/15/04 11:34 AM, "dlruckus" <dlruckus@y...> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > David,
> > 
> > One would think that the flat panel LCD screen would be just the
> > opposite and be closer to paper than the CRT. That has been my
> > experience to date but perhaps I'm missing the most recent advances in
> > that field.
> > 
> > Best.
> > Duane
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks"
> > <fotografx@m...> wrote:
> >> > 
> >> > Bernie,
> >> > 
> >> > May I suggest that ³color management² and monitor calibration and
> > profiling
> >> > could at least reduce the discrepancy between what you see
on-screen and
> >> > what you obtain in a print even though you are working with
> > grayscale and
> >> > not color.  I have jumped in here in part because I was just
delivered
> >> > ColorVision¹s new Spyder2Pro colorimeter and software, and the
resulting
> >> > calibration and profiling I am now obtaining is amazingly
> > well-matched and
> >> > the screen gray is at a neutral balance I¹ve not seen before. And
> > may I also
> >> > suggest that with an LCD flat panel, its grater brightness range
> > compared to
> >> > a CRT, makes it that much more difficult to obtain screen matching
> > in prints
> >> > as there is an inherent gamma discrepancy. CRT¹s are much closer in
> >> > brightness range and apparent gamma effect to a print density
range.
> >> > 
> >> > Regards, David B. Brooks
> >> > Shutterbug Magazine
> >> > E-mail: fotografx@m...
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > On 10/15/04 4:17 AM, "Bernie Ess" <albatros-@...> wrote:
> >> > 
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > When I started b&w printing on an Epson, I thought one of the
> >>> > > advantages over the darkroom was that once its well set up,
there
> >>> > > would be no trying and experimenting and that I would have 100%
> >>> > > predictable results.
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > Now, a few hundreds or probably thousands of prints later I
find that
> >>> > > this is
> >>> > > not exactly the case. On my 2100/UT7 workflow I find the
following
> >>> > > issues:
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > 1. My output from the file + Roark curves is roughly, but never
> >>> > > exactly what I see on my monitor. When I look at the
grayscale on my
> >>> > > flat panel the 100% to 0%
> >>> > > steps are quite well separated, but in the uncorrected print
the deep
> >>> > > shadows (around 95%
> >>> > > black) are not well resolved, 95% comes out totally
> >>> > > black: So I had to make a curve that boosts the deep shadows.
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > 2. I often find myself having to do several prints of the
same photo,
> >>> > > because the general "look" of the print is not like on the
screen, see
> >>> > > also my other message about the foliage and trees.
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > 3. The most mysterious thing is that my output seems to vary
from time
> >>> > > to time. Sometimes I find the prints too dark compared to
the screen,
> >>> > > sometimes they are slightly too light.
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > Finally its not that different from the darkroom, I would say
> >>> > > gradually more predictable (maybe even by a large margin,
but that is
> >>> > > probably because my traditional darkroom skills are so poor).
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > So, do you have a 100% WYSIWYG workflow?
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > Thanks for your input,
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > Bernhard
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
> > resources as
> >>> > > they are often being updated.
> >>> > > 
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> >> > 
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> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
resources as
> > they are often being updated.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
this same
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> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
to keep
> > them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
flames.
> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership
> > without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of
digital B&W
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
removed from the
> > membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
Owner and
> > Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
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PRINT
> > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
LIABLE TO YOU
> > FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
EXEMPLARY
> > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> > USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
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DIGITAL BW,
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OF YOUR
> > TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD
PARTY ON THE
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER
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> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
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> 
> 
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