Digital BW, The Print

When I started b&w printing on an Epson, I thought one of the
advantages over the darkroom was that once its well set up, there
would be no trying and experimenting and that I would have 100%
predictable results.

Now, a few hundreds or probably thousands of prints later I find that
this is
not exactly the case. On my 2100/UT7 workflow I find the following
issues:

1. My output from the file + Roark curves is roughly, but never
exactly what I see on my monitor. When I look at the grayscale on my
flat panel the 100% to 0%
steps are quite well separated, but in the uncorrected print the deep
shadows (around 95%
black) are not well resolved, 95% comes out totally
black: So I had to make a curve that boosts the deep shadows.

2. I often find myself having to do several prints of the same photo,
because the general "look" of the print is not like on the screen, see
also my other message about the foliage and trees. 

3. The most mysterious thing is that my output seems to vary from time
to time. Sometimes I find the prints too dark compared to the screen,
sometimes they are slightly too light.

Finally its not that different from the darkroom, I would say
gradually more predictable (maybe even by a large margin, but that is
probably because my traditional darkroom skills are so poor).

So, do you have a 100% WYSIWYG workflow?

Thanks for your input,

Bernhard

Using QTR with UC on my 2200 I find that I'm getting very close to 
what I see on the screen. However, I still often make different 
prints of a given negative because 1) prints just look different, and 
what I'm predisposed to like on screen may change when I see it on 
paper, 2) possible adjustments/improvements in tone, sharpening, 
grain, print size, etc. are easier (for me) to preceive in a print. 
Also, what I usually try to do is view the print under different 
intensities of light -- from bright sunlight to somewhat shadowed 
indoor light. Doing this lets me see the print's strengths and 
weaknesses, and, again, points to possible improvements.

Chris Hargens

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bernie Ess" 
<albatros-@g...> wrote:
> 
> When I started b&w printing on an Epson, I thought one of the
> advantages over the darkroom was that once its well set up, there
> would be no trying and experimenting and that I would have 100%
> predictable results.
> 
> Now, a few hundreds or probably thousands of prints later I find 
that
> this is
> not exactly the case. On my 2100/UT7 workflow I find the following
> issues:
> 
> 1. My output from the file + Roark curves is roughly, but never
> exactly what I see on my monitor. When I look at the grayscale on my
> <a href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=1&k=flat%
20panel" onmouseover="window.status='flat panel'; return true;" 
onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">flat panel</a> the 100% 
to 0%
> steps are quite well separated, but in the uncorrected print the 
deep
> shadows (around 95%
> black) are not well resolved, 95% comes out totally
> black: So I had to make a curve that boosts the deep shadows.
> 
> 2. I often find myself having to do several prints of the same 
photo,
> because the general "look" of the print is not like on the screen, 
see
> also my other message about the foliage and trees. 
> 
> 3. The most mysterious thing is that my output seems to vary from 
time
> to time. Sometimes I find the prints too dark compared to the 
screen,
> sometimes they are slightly too light.
> 
> Finally its not that different from the darkroom, I would say
> gradually more predictable (maybe even by a large margin, but that 
is

> probably because my traditional darkroom skills are so poor).
> 
> So, do you have a 100% WYSIWYG workflow?
> 
> Thanks for your input,
> 
> Bernhard

Bernhard,

I share your frustration with respect to variables.  The papers, inks, and
printers all contribute to the issue.  One thing I think might be helping me
is to leave the printer on over night.  The warming up of the printer during
the day seems to be, in part, related to how long it has been on.  (Room
temperature, humidity, and sometimes I think phase of the moon also probably
contribute to the problem.)

The shadow compression you describe makes me think the 2100 might be like
the 1290, which prints darker than the US version (1280).  

The bottom line for me is that I rely on hard copy proof prints before
making critical prints.  This, of course, is no different than the darkroom
was -- unfortunately.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

_________________

-----Original Message-----
From: Bernie Ess [mailto:albatros-@...] 
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 3:18 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] How reliable/ precise is your b&w print workflow?



When I started b&w printing on an Epson, I thought one of the
advantages over the darkroom was that once its well set up, there
would be no trying and experimenting and that I would have 100%
predictable results.

Now, a few hundreds or probably thousands of prints later I find that
this is
not exactly the case. On my 2100/UT7 workflow I find the following
issues:

1. My output from the file + Roark curves is roughly, but never
exactly what I see on my monitor. When I look at the grayscale on my
flat panel the 100% to 0%
steps are quite well separated, but in the uncorrected print the deep
shadows (around 95%
black) are not well resolved, 95% comes out totally
black: So I had to make a curve that boosts the deep shadows.

2. I often find myself having to do several prints of the same photo,
because the general "look" of the print is not like on the screen, see
also my other message about the foliage and trees. 

3. The most mysterious thing is that my output seems to vary from time
to time. Sometimes I find the prints too dark compared to the screen,
sometimes they are slightly too light.

Finally its not that different from the darkroom, I would say
gradually more predictable (maybe even by a large margin, but that is
probably because my traditional darkroom skills are so poor).

So, do you have a 100% WYSIWYG workflow?

Thanks for your input,

Bernhard






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Carl Schofield developed a means of soft-proofing using an Eye-One which I
think is very good

> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 09:04:45 -0700
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] How reliable/ precise is your b&w print workflow?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bernhard,
> 
> I share your frustration with respect to variables.  The papers, inks, and
> printers all contribute to the issue.  One thing I think might be helping me
> is to leave the printer on over night.  The warming up of the printer during
> the day seems to be, in part, related to how long it has been on.  (Room
> temperature, humidity, and sometimes I think phase of the moon also probably
> contribute to the problem.)
> 
> The shadow compression you describe makes me think the 2100 might be like
> the 1290, which prints darker than the US version (1280).
> 
> The bottom line for me is that I rely on hard copy proof prints before
> making critical prints.  This, of course, is no different than the darkroom
> was -- unfortunately.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> _________________
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bernie Ess [mailto:albatros-@...]
> Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 3:18 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] How reliable/ precise is your b&w print workflow?
> 
> 
> 
> When I started b&w printing on an Epson, I thought one of the
> advantages over the darkroom was that once its well set up, there
> would be no trying and experimenting and that I would have 100%
> predictable results.
> 
> Now, a few hundreds or probably thousands of prints later I find that
> this is
> not exactly the case. On my 2100/UT7 workflow I find the following
> issues:
> 
> 1. My output from the file + Roark curves is roughly, but never
> exactly what I see on my monitor. When I look at the grayscale on my
> flat panel the 100% to 0%
> steps are quite well separated, but in the uncorrected print the deep
> shadows (around 95%
> black) are not well resolved, 95% comes out totally
> black: So I had to make a curve that boosts the deep shadows.
> 
> 2. I often find myself having to do several prints of the same photo,
> because the general "look" of the print is not like on the screen, see
> also my other message about the foliage and trees.
> 
> 3. The most mysterious thing is that my output seems to vary from time
> to time. Sometimes I find the prints too dark compared to the screen,
> sometimes they are slightly too light.
> 
> Finally its not that different from the darkroom, I would say
> gradually more predictable (maybe even by a large margin, but that is
> probably because my traditional darkroom skills are so poor).
> 
> So, do you have a 100% WYSIWYG workflow?
> 
> Thanks for your input,
> 
> Bernhard
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Yes, fine monochrome printing is much more difficult than fine color printing, whether 
through Epson's or in the darkroom. I think it always will be. Just like Hitchcock's films 
were far more difficult to light than the color cinema of Hollywood today. You have so 
many subtle decisions to make, and like you both just suggested you don't know until you 
see it, the screen is just a point of departure ( like the negative in the ole days.) To me the 
great advantage of inkjet output is the ability to fine tune the curves in all areas of the file 
and the amazing control over dodging and burning. I have been able to impress clients 
over and over even when just printing out of a black channel on a 10K by spending a lot of 
effort mapping out my dodging and burning for a particular image. There is no short cut 
software for that. It's all about time and experiene.

Bernie,

May I suggest that ³color management² and monitor calibration and profiling
could at least reduce the discrepancy between what you see on-screen and
what you obtain in a print even though you are working with grayscale and
not color.  I have jumped in here in part because I was just delivered
ColorVision¹s new Spyder2Pro colorimeter and software, and the resulting
calibration and profiling I am now obtaining is amazingly well-matched and
the screen gray is at a neutral balance I¹ve not seen before. And may I also
suggest that with an LCD flat panel, its grater brightness range compared to
a CRT, makes it that much more difficult to obtain screen matching in prints
as there is an inherent gamma discrepancy. CRT¹s are much closer in
brightness range and apparent gamma effect to a print density range.

Regards, David B. Brooks
Shutterbug Magazine
E-mail: fotografx@mindspring.com




On 10/15/04 4:17 AM, "Bernie Ess" <albatros-@...> wrote:

> 
> When I started b&w printing on an Epson, I thought one of the
> advantages over the darkroom was that once its well set up, there
> would be no trying and experimenting and that I would have 100%
> predictable results.
> 
> Now, a few hundreds or probably thousands of prints later I find that
> this is
> not exactly the case. On my 2100/UT7 workflow I find the following
> issues:
> 
> 1. My output from the file + Roark curves is roughly, but never
> exactly what I see on my monitor. When I look at the grayscale on my
> flat panel the 100% to 0%
> steps are quite well separated, but in the uncorrected print the deep
> shadows (around 95%
> black) are not well resolved, 95% comes out totally
> black: So I had to make a curve that boosts the deep shadows.
> 
> 2. I often find myself having to do several prints of the same photo,
> because the general "look" of the print is not like on the screen, see
> also my other message about the foliage and trees.
> 
> 3. The most mysterious thing is that my output seems to vary from time
> to time. Sometimes I find the prints too dark compared to the screen,
> sometimes they are slightly too light.
> 
> Finally its not that different from the darkroom, I would say
> gradually more predictable (maybe even by a large margin, but that is
> probably because my traditional darkroom skills are so poor).
> 
> So, do you have a 100% WYSIWYG workflow?
> 
> Thanks for your input,
> 
> Bernhard
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership
> without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the
> membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
> “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR
> TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
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> 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If you are already on top of the following, please don't be offended.
I find most of these kinds of problems have more to do with workflow
than materials variables. The papers I use seem to be remarkably
consistent, and other than the very rare exception, the inks as well.
The only ink problem that seems to come up is from pigment settling,
large format carts and CIS bottles need to be shaken once a week or
so, and with a large format printer or a CIS system that has long
lines to the heads, without consistent use they will settle out in the
lines as well, requiring moving enough ink through the lines to
refresh with good ink.
The remainder is getting a handle on color management settings and
making sure they remain consistent, making sure files are tagged and
displaying properly, a calibrated monitor (recalibrated often), driver
settings that are cast in stone and nailed down.
Then things should remain consistent. Beyond that, a good monitor to
print match requires a good soft proof method, which should be fairly
easily accomplished.
I find, even with the option of relinearizing our RIP if needed, here
things are very consistant rarely requiring a relinearization.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bernie Ess"
<albatros-@g...> wrote:

> 
> When I started b&w printing on an Epson, I thought one of the
> advantages over the darkroom was that once its well set up, there
> would be no trying and experimenting and that I would have 100%
> predictable results.
> 
> Now, a few hundreds or probably thousands of prints later I find that
> this is
> not exactly the case. On my 2100/UT7 workflow I find the following
> issues:
> 
> 1. My output from the file + Roark curves is roughly, but never
> exactly what I see on my monitor. When I look at the grayscale on my
> flat panel the 100% to 0%
> steps are quite well separated, but in the uncorrected print the deep
> shadows (around 95%
> black) are not well resolved, 95% comes out totally
> black: So I had to make a curve that boosts the deep shadows.
> 
> 2. I often find myself having to do several prints of the same photo,
> because the general "look" of the print is not like on the screen, see
> also my other message about the foliage and trees. 
> 
> 3. The most mysterious thing is that my output seems to vary from time
> to time. Sometimes I find the prints too dark compared to the screen,
> sometimes they are slightly too light.
> 
> Finally its not that different from the darkroom, I would say
> gradually more predictable (maybe even by a large margin, but that is
> probably because my traditional darkroom skills are so poor).
> 
> So, do you have a 100% WYSIWYG workflow?
> 
> Thanks for your input,
> 
> Bernhard

You should be colour calibrated anyway - it is the only way to have a
colour-managed workflow. But since B&W is largely at the moment a Same As
Source workflow rather than a colour managed one the only real way to get
output that matches the what you see on screen with B&W is to use a
soft-proofing workflow such as the one developed by Carl.  Of course for
this to work you need to be colour calibrated but one without the other is
not enough.

> From: "David B. Brooks" <fotografx@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 09:49:44 -0700
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Cc: <albatros-@gmx.net>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] How reliable/ precise is your b&w print workflow?
> 
> 
> 
> Bernie,
> 
> May I suggest that ³color management² and monitor calibration and profiling
> could at least reduce the discrepancy between what you see on-screen and
> what you obtain in a print even though you are working with grayscale and
> not color.  I have jumped in here in part because I was just delivered
> ColorVision¹s new Spyder2Pro colorimeter and software, and the resulting
> calibration and profiling I am now obtaining is amazingly well-matched and
> the screen gray is at a neutral balance I¹ve not seen before. And may I also
> suggest that with an LCD flat panel, its grater brightness range compared to
> a CRT, makes it that much more difficult to obtain screen matching in prints
> as there is an inherent gamma discrepancy. CRT¹s are much closer in
> brightness range and apparent gamma effect to a print density range.
> 
> Regards, David B. Brooks
> Shutterbug Magazine
> E-mail: fotografx@...
> 
>

David,

One would think that the flat panel LCD screen would be just the
opposite and be closer to paper than the CRT. That has been my
experience to date but perhaps I'm missing the most recent advances in
that field.

Best.
Duane




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks"
<fotografx@m...> wrote:
> 
> Bernie,
> 
> May I suggest that ³color management² and monitor calibration and
profiling
> could at least reduce the discrepancy between what you see on-screen and
> what you obtain in a print even though you are working with
grayscale and
> not color.  I have jumped in here in part because I was just delivered
> ColorVision¹s new Spyder2Pro colorimeter and software, and the resulting
> calibration and profiling I am now obtaining is amazingly
well-matched and
> the screen gray is at a neutral balance I¹ve not seen before. And
may I also
> suggest that with an LCD flat panel, its grater brightness range
compared to
> a CRT, makes it that much more difficult to obtain screen matching
in prints
> as there is an inherent gamma discrepancy. CRT¹s are much closer in
> brightness range and apparent gamma effect to a print density range.
> 
> Regards, David B. Brooks
> Shutterbug Magazine
> E-mail: fotografx@m...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/15/04 4:17 AM, "Bernie Ess" <albatros-@...> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > When I started b&w printing on an Epson, I thought one of the
> > advantages over the darkroom was that once its well set up, there
> > would be no trying and experimenting and that I would have 100%
> > predictable results.
> > 
> > Now, a few hundreds or probably thousands of prints later I find that
> > this is
> > not exactly the case. On my 2100/UT7 workflow I find the following
> > issues:
> > 
> > 1. My output from the file + Roark curves is roughly, but never
> > exactly what I see on my monitor. When I look at the grayscale on my
> > flat panel the 100% to 0%
> > steps are quite well separated, but in the uncorrected print the deep
> > shadows (around 95%
> > black) are not well resolved, 95% comes out totally
> > black: So I had to make a curve that boosts the deep shadows.
> > 
> > 2. I often find myself having to do several prints of the same photo,
> > because the general "look" of the print is not like on the screen, see
> > also my other message about the foliage and trees.
> > 
> > 3. The most mysterious thing is that my output seems to vary from time
> > to time. Sometimes I find the prints too dark compared to the screen,
> > sometimes they are slightly too light.
> > 
> > Finally its not that different from the darkroom, I would say
> > gradually more predictable (maybe even by a large margin, but that is
> > probably because my traditional darkroom skills are so poor).
> > 
> > So, do you have a 100% WYSIWYG workflow?
> > 
> > Thanks for your input,
> > 
> > Bernhard
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
resources as
> > they are often being updated.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
this same
> > page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
to keep
> > them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
flames.
> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership
> > without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of
digital B&W
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
removed from the
> > membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
Owner and
> > Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > 
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
PRINT
> > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
LIABLE TO YOU
> > FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
EXEMPLARY
> > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> > USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> > DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE
DIGITAL BW,
> > THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION
OF YOUR
> > TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD
PARTY ON THE
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER
RELATING TO THE
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >  
> >  ADVERTISEMENT
> >  
> >
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> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Bernie,

My experience has been much like yours. Like Paul Roark I think much
of it is due to printer differences from print to print. I also think
that it's nearly impossible to accurately judge each different photo
from the screen. Different tonal distributions across a picture cause
the appearance to be different. Even color mmanagement practices only
get one in the ballpark if you are being critical (much better than
nothing however). I too found compression in the shadows to be a
problem (particularly on the 1200,s I use ) requiring compensation.
Each paper needs that attention.They vary even more than silver papers
     
of the past. At the beginning , lacking anything but the photoshop
supplied moniter calibration , I worked exactly as always done in the
darkroom and relied on absolute RGB or density %s to be sure of at
least coming close enough to zero in on final prints. Now I profile
each paper I use up front , use soft proofing , still keep a close eye
on absolute numbers , spend a fair amount of time considering whether
or not I'm really seeing on screen what I think I'm seeing , and then
end up making hard proofs in most cases anyway. The only change I've
noted is that I make fewer gross mistakes and often end up with prints
and proof prints being close enough that if I hung them on different
walls , later on I might not notice any difference between them.
  I suspect that those who say 100% right out of the box are perhaps
less obsessed.
 Best.

Duane


-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bernie Ess"
<albatros-@g...> wrote:

> 
> When I started b&w printing on an Epson, I thought one of the
> advantages over the darkroom was that once its well set up, there
> would be no trying and experimenting and that I would have 100%
> predictable results.
> 
> Now, a few hundreds or probably thousands of prints later I find that
> this is
> not exactly the case. On my 2100/UT7 workflow I find the following
> issues:
> 
> 1. My output from the file + Roark curves is roughly, but never
> exactly what I see on my monitor. When I look at the grayscale on my
> flat panel the 100% to 0%
> steps are quite well separated, but in the uncorrected print the deep
> shadows (around 95%
> black) are not well resolved, 95% comes out totally
> black: So I had to make a curve that boosts the deep shadows.
> 
> 2. I often find myself having to do several prints of the same photo,
> because the general "look" of the print is not like on the screen, see
> also my other message about the foliage and trees. 
> 
> 3. The most mysterious thing is that my output seems to vary from time
> to time. Sometimes I find the prints too dark compared to the screen,
> sometimes they are slightly too light.
> 
> Finally its not that different from the darkroom, I would say
> gradually more predictable (maybe even by a large margin, but that is
> probably because my traditional darkroom skills are so poor).
> 
> So, do you have a 100% WYSIWYG workflow?
> 
> Thanks for your input,
> 
> Bernhard

Duane,

A typical LCD has a maximum luminance these days of around 250 cd/m2, but
usually adjusted for ideal photographic image display LCD¹s are choked down
to between 150 and 180 cd/m2, with a black point between 0.05 and 0.09.
CRT¹s after calibration and profiling will have a luminance range from 0.07
to 0.90.  A fine print¹s density range is much closer, ideally slightly more
measured with a densitometer than the range of a CRT, but very much less
than the range of an LCD. However, on a perceptual basis because a print is
viewed by usually less than ideal illumination (diffuse) the perceived tonal
range is even closer to that of a CRT because the CRT display is projected
rather than reflected light (unless contaminated by high levels of ambient
illumination).

Additionally the standard 2.2 gamma setting for displays produces a very
different midpoint gray value between a CRT, which closely matches a print
midpoint gray, compared to an LCD which with its longer luminance range has
a much brighter midpoint gray. So far as I know Barco is the only LCD
offered which has a gamma correction function that adjust for this midpoint
gray discrepancy.

Regards, David B. Brooks
Shutterbug Magazine
E-mail: fotografx@...




On 10/15/04 11:34 AM, "dlruckus" <dlruckus@...> wrote:

> 
> David,
> 
> One would think that the flat panel LCD screen would be just the
> opposite and be closer to paper than the CRT. That has been my
> experience to date but perhaps I'm missing the most recent advances in
> that field.
> 
> Best.
> Duane
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks"
> <fotografx@m...> wrote:
>> > 
>> > Bernie,
>> > 
>> > May I suggest that ³color management² and monitor calibration and
> profiling
>> > could at least reduce the discrepancy between what you see on-screen and
>> > what you obtain in a print even though you are working with
> grayscale and
>> > not color.  I have jumped in here in part because I was just delivered
>> > ColorVision¹s new Spyder2Pro colorimeter and software, and the resulting
>> > calibration and profiling I am now obtaining is amazingly
> well-matched and
>> > the screen gray is at a neutral balance I¹ve not seen before. And
> may I also
>> > suggest that with an LCD flat panel, its grater brightness range
> compared to
>> > a CRT, makes it that much more difficult to obtain screen matching
> in prints
>> > as there is an inherent gamma discrepancy. CRT¹s are much closer in
>> > brightness range and apparent gamma effect to a print density range.
>> > 
>> > Regards, David B. Brooks
>> > Shutterbug Magazine
>> > E-mail: fotografx@m...
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > On 10/15/04 4:17 AM, "Bernie Ess" <albatros-@...> wrote:
>> > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > When I started b&w printing on an Epson, I thought one of the
>>> > > advantages over the darkroom was that once its well set up, there
>>> > > would be no trying and experimenting and that I would have 100%
>>> > > predictable results.
>>> > > 
>>> > > Now, a few hundreds or probably thousands of prints later I find that
>>> > > this is
>>> > > not exactly the case. On my 2100/UT7 workflow I find the following
>>> > > issues:
>>> > > 
>>> > > 1. My output from the file + Roark curves is roughly, but never
>>> > > exactly what I see on my monitor. When I look at the grayscale on my
>>> > > flat panel the 100% to 0%
>>> > > steps are quite well separated, but in the uncorrected print the deep
>>> > > shadows (around 95%
>>> > > black) are not well resolved, 95% comes out totally
>>> > > black: So I had to make a curve that boosts the deep shadows.
>>> > > 
>>> > > 2. I often find myself having to do several prints of the same photo,
>>> > > because the general "look" of the print is not like on the screen, see
>>> > > also my other message about the foliage and trees.
>>> > > 
>>> > > 3. The most mysterious thing is that my output seems to vary from time
>>> > > to time. Sometimes I find the prints too dark compared to the screen,
>>> > > sometimes they are slightly too light.
>>> > > 
>>> > > Finally its not that different from the darkroom, I would say
>>> > > gradually more predictable (maybe even by a large margin, but that is
>>> > > probably because my traditional darkroom skills are so poor).
>>> > > 
>>> > > So, do you have a 100% WYSIWYG workflow?
>>> > > 
>>> > > Thanks for your input,
>>> > > 
>>> > > Bernhard
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
> resources as
>>> > > they are often being updated.
>>> > > 
>>> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>> > > 
>>> > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
> wish to
>>> > > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
> this same
>>> > > page.
>>> > > 
>>> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
> to keep
>>> > > them short.
>>> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> flames.
>>> > > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership
>>> > > without notice.
>>> > > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of
> digital B&W
>>> > > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
> removed from the
>>> > > membership.
>>> > > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
>>> > > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
> Owner and
>>> > > Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> section:
>>> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>>> > > 
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>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership
> without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the
> membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
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> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
> “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL,
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> 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Will Carl's softproofing method work only with QTR or can it work with other workflows?

Ed


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@b...> 
wrote:

> 
> Carl Schofield developed a means of soft-proofing using an Eye-One which I
> think is very good
> 
> > From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@v...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 09:04:45 -0700
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: RE: [Digital BW] How reliable/ precise is your b&w print workflow?
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Bernhard,
> > 
> > I share your frustration with respect to variables.  The papers, inks, and
> > printers all contribute to the issue.  One thing I think might be helping me
> > is to leave the printer on over night.  The warming up of the printer during
> > the day seems to be, in part, related to how long it has been on.  (Room
> > temperature, humidity, and sometimes I think phase of the moon also probably
> > contribute to the problem.)
> > 
> > The shadow compression you describe makes me think the 2100 might be like
> > the 1290, which prints darker than the US version (1280).
> > 
> > The bottom line for me is that I rely on hard copy proof prints before
> > making critical prints.  This, of course, is no different than the darkroom
> > was -- unfortunately.
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> > 
> > _________________
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bernie Ess [mailto:albatros-@...]
> > Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 3:18 AM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Digital BW] How reliable/ precise is your b&w print workflow?
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > When I started b&w printing on an Epson, I thought one of the
> > advantages over the darkroom was that once its well set up, there
> > would be no trying and experimenting and that I would have 100%
> > predictable results.
> > 
> > Now, a few hundreds or probably thousands of prints later I find that
> > this is
> > not exactly the case. On my 2100/UT7 workflow I find the following
> > issues:
> > 
> > 1. My output from the file + Roark curves is roughly, but never
> > exactly what I see on my monitor. When I look at the grayscale on my
> > flat panel the 100% to 0%
> > steps are quite well separated, but in the uncorrected print the deep
> > shadows (around 95%
> > black) are not well resolved, 95% comes out totally
> > black: So I had to make a curve that boosts the deep shadows.
> > 
> > 2. I often find myself having to do several prints of the same photo,
> > because the general "look" of the print is not like on the screen, see
> > also my other message about the foliage and trees.
> > 
> > 3. The most mysterious thing is that my output seems to vary from time
> > to time. Sometimes I find the prints too dark compared to the screen,
> > sometimes they are slightly too light.
> > 
> > Finally its not that different from the darkroom, I would say
> > gradually more predictable (maybe even by a large margin, but that is
> > probably because my traditional darkroom skills are so poor).
> > 
> > So, do you have a 100% WYSIWYG workflow?
> > 
> > Thanks for your input,
> > 
> > Bernhard
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >

SNIP>
In a message dated 10/15/2004 4:18:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
albatros-@... writes:

> So, do you have a 100% WYSIWYG workflow?
> 
Pretty close since I switched to studio print rip and linerize my printer 
paper combos myself, I had much the same experience you mentioned using A roark 
type work flow. Unfortunately those are generic printer curves and may work 
better for some than others. I never found a reliable consisitancy with a work 
flow of this type. What was great on one image was not so great on the next. 
MADDENING for someone who whats to print.
I use the Gretag eyeone to Calabrate a 21in LCD and the BW display is 
beautiful and as close as I have ever had it to the prints, x 3 generations of 
displays and work flows. If I do make a second print its a different interpretation 
all together.
I even owned the piezo pro24 rip, and its had its share of monotor print 
match issues.
Steve M.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steve,

I agree with your first sentence without reservation. However printing black
& white is not limited to a “same as” workflow. There is no reason a user
cannot convert grayscale to RGB and thereby make the workflow process
amenable to the same controls as color. Several B&W (black ink) options
employ some aspect of this strategy. For instance the MIS/Paul Roark option
is a simple one which, although it requires using a “same as” CMS profile
setting in Photoshop,  also involves a print driver setting of “no color
adjustment” .  This allows the use of RGB curve files applied to the open
image which in a broad sense functions in lieu of a profile selection in
PrintSpace, providing data going to the printer altered to linearize the
application of CcMmY ink position output.

Ideally it is technically and theoretically possible to fully utilize color
management and profiles to control B&W printing with black inks. What is
missing for users are two software components. The first is a way to drive
the printer to reproduce a standard grayscale image that would output a
print with a set of recordings resulting from that graysscale reflecting the
ink application performance for each printer ink channel.  Then the second
step would be to “read” the densities from the test chart print. This can be
accomplished with either a flatbed scanner which has the support to output
raw data, or with a photospectrometer. The key piece of need software would
allow inputting the density data read from the chart to be used to write a
profile applying preset algorithms to match ideal aim-points to control the
ink application for each ink color channel.

Obviously a user B&W calibration and profiling capability will require a
significant investment in R&D, as well as programming and marketing to bring
these utilities to market. That will happen when the potential market is
adequately recognized in size potential by those in the industry who have
the capability to take the risks to undertake this challenge. From my
perspective there are many times more photographers already with a foot in
digital who have an interest in a B&W capability (if it is reasonably easy
and affordable), than there are among those already involved and using some
kind of currently available B&W printing option.

Regards, David B. Brooks
Shutterbug Magazine
E-mail: fotografx@...

  



On 10/15/04 11:30 AM, "Steve Kale" <stevekale@...> wrote:

> You should be colour calibrated anyway - it is the only way to have a
> colour-managed workflow. But since B&W is largely at the moment a Same As
> Source workflow rather than a colour managed one the only real way to get
> output that matches the what you see on screen with B&W is to use a
> soft-proofing workflow such as the one developed by Carl.  Of course for
> this to work you need to be colour calibrated but one without the other is
> not enough.
> 
> 
>> > From: "David B. Brooks" <fotografx@...>
>> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>> > Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 09:49:44 -0700
>> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>> > Cc: <albatros-@...>
>> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] How reliable/ precise is your b&w print workflow?
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > Bernie,
>> > 
>> > May I suggest that ³color management² and monitor calibration and
>> profiling
>> > could at least reduce the discrepancy between what you see on-screen and
>> > what you obtain in a print even though you are working with grayscale and
>> > not color.  I have jumped in here in part because I was just delivered
>> > ColorVision¹s new Spyder2Pro colorimeter and software, and the resulting
>> > calibration and profiling I am now obtaining is amazingly well-matched and
>> > the screen gray is at a neutral balance I¹ve not seen before. And may I
>> also
>> > suggest that with an LCD flat panel, its grater brightness range compared
>> to
>> > a CRT, makes it that much more difficult to obtain screen matching in
>> prints
>> > as there is an inherent gamma discrepancy. CRT¹s are much closer in
>> > brightness range and apparent gamma effect to a print density range.
>> > 
>> > Regards, David B. Brooks
>> > Shutterbug Magazine
>> > E-mail: fotografx@mindspring.com
>> > 
>> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership
> without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the
> membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See ?roup Topic, Rules and Guidelines? in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE ?WNER? AND
> ?ODERATORS? OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
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> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  ?WNER? AND ?ODERATORS? OF
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR
> TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
> 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It'll work with any workflow.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "edrudolpho"
<erudolph@p...> wrote:
> 
> Will Carl's softproofing method work only with QTR or can it work
with other workflows?
> 
> Ed
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> 
> wrote:
> > 
> > Carl Schofield developed a means of soft-proofing using an Eye-One
which I
> > think is very good
> > 
> > > From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@v...>
> > > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 09:04:45 -0700
> > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: RE: [Digital BW] How reliable/ precise is your b&w
print workflow?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Bernhard,
> > > 
> > > I share your frustration with respect to variables.  The papers,
inks, and
> > > printers all contribute to the issue.  One thing I think might
be helping me
> > > is to leave the printer on over night.  The warming up of the
printer during
> > > the day seems to be, in part, related to how long it has been
on.  (Room
> > > temperature, humidity, and sometimes I think phase of the moon
also probably
> > > contribute to the problem.)
> > > 
> > > The shadow compression you describe makes me think the 2100
might be like
> > > the 1290, which prints darker than the US version (1280).
> > > 
> > > The bottom line for me is that I rely on hard copy proof prints
before
> > > making critical prints.  This, of course, is no different than
the darkroom
> > > was -- unfortunately.
> > > 
> > > Paul
> > > www.PaulRoark.com
> > > 
> > > _________________
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Bernie Ess [mailto:albatros-@...]
> > > Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 3:18 AM
> > > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [Digital BW] How reliable/ precise is your b&w print
workflow?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > When I started b&w printing on an Epson, I thought one of the
> > > advantages over the darkroom was that once its well set up, there
> > > would be no trying and experimenting and that I would have 100%
> > > predictable results.
> > > 
> > > Now, a few hundreds or probably thousands of prints later I find
that
> > > this is
> > > not exactly the case. On my 2100/UT7 workflow I find the following
> > > issues:
> > > 
> > > 1. My output from the file + Roark curves is roughly, but never
> > > exactly what I see on my monitor. When I look at the grayscale on my
> > > flat panel the 100% to 0%
> > > steps are quite well separated, but in the uncorrected print the
deep
> > > shadows (around 95%
> > > black) are not well resolved, 95% comes out totally
> > > black: So I had to make a curve that boosts the deep shadows.
> > > 
> > > 2. I often find myself having to do several prints of the same
photo,
> > > because the general "look" of the print is not like on the
screen, see
> > > also my other message about the foliage and trees.
> > > 
> > > 3. The most mysterious thing is that my output seems to vary
from time
> > > to time. Sometimes I find the prints too dark compared to the
screen,
> > > sometimes they are slightly too light.
> > > 
> > > Finally its not that different from the darkroom, I would say
> > > gradually more predictable (maybe even by a large margin, but
that is

> > > probably because my traditional darkroom skills are so poor).
> > > 
> > > So, do you have a 100% WYSIWYG workflow?
> > > 
> > > Thanks for your input,
> > > 
> > > Bernhard
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >

David, I agree with all 3 of your paragraphs 100% ;0  I can only add 
' affordable, and easy" are pretty subjective. Many ways to skin a cat so to 
speak, and I have tried them all from the cheapest to most expensive. If easy 
means using someone else's rgb curves on YOUR printer and monitior than its no 
wonder there are inconsistencies all over. I'm a big fan of easy and 
consistancy, so my point is, you have to do it yourself. Printing out patches and 
measuring with the eyeone is a breeze, no fuss no muss, just plain and simple 
linerized greyscale. What a great place to start.
For users who don't have a handle on color management or the knowledge to 
write there own perfect RGB curves for conversion, what could be easier? Those 
expensive options pay for themselves rather quickly.
I lost my taste for the epson driver along time ago, fourtunately I only use 
wide format machines now. People think this is too expensive? buts its really 
a money saver and easier in so many ways.
Steve M.

In a message dated 10/15/2004 7:31:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
fotografx@... writes:

> Steve,
> 
> I agree with your first sentence without reservation. However printing black
> &white is not limited to a “same as” workflow. There is no reason a user
> cannot convert grayscale to RGB and thereby make the workflow process
> amenable to the same controls as color. Several B&W (black ink) options
> employ some aspect of this strategy. For instance the MIS/Paul Roark option
> is a simple one which, although it requires using a “same as” CMS profile
> setting in Photoshop,  also involves a print driver setting of “no color
> adjustment” .  This allows the use of RGB curve files applied to the open
> image which in a broad sense functions in lieu of a profile selection in
> PrintSpace, providing data going to the printer altered to linearize the
> application of CcMmY ink position output.
> Snip >>>>>>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tyler

Your The Man..:)

Hope alll is well out west!!
Jim

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Tyler Boley [mailto:tyler@...]
  Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 10:56 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] How reliable/ precise is your b&w print
workflow?



  It'll work with any workflow.
  Tyler

  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "edrudolpho"
  <erudolph@p...> wrote:
  >
  > Will Carl's softproofing method work only with QTR or can it work
  with other workflows?
  >
  > Ed
  >
  >
  > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
  <stevekale@b...>
  > wrote:
  > >
  > > Carl Schofield developed a means of soft-proofing using an Eye-One
  which I
  > > think is very good
  > >
  > > > From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@v...>
  > > > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
  > > > Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 09:04:45 -0700
  > > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
  > > > Subject: RE: [Digital BW] How reliable/ precise is your b&w
  print workflow?
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > Bernhard,
  > > >
  > > > I share your frustration with respect to variables.  The papers,
  inks, and
  > > > printers all contribute to the issue.  One thing I think might
  be helping me
  > > > is to leave the printer on over night.  The warming up of the
  printer during
  > > > the day seems to be, in part, related to how long it has been
  on.  (Room
  > > > temperature, humidity, and sometimes I think phase of the moon
  also probably
  > > > contribute to the problem.)
  > > >
  > > > The shadow compression you describe makes me think the 2100
  might be like
  > > > the 1290, which prints darker than the US version (1280).
  > > >
  > > > The bottom line for me is that I rely on hard copy proof prints
  before
  > > > making critical prints.  This, of course, is no different than
  the darkroom
  > > > was -- unfortunately.
  > > >
  > > > Paul
  > > > www.PaulRoark.com
  > > >
  > > > _________________
  > > >
  > > > -----Original Message-----
  > > > From: Bernie Ess [mailto:albatros-@...]
  > > > Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 3:18 AM
  > > > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  > > > Subject: [Digital BW] How reliable/ precise is your b&w print
  workflow?
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > When I started b&w printing on an Epson, I thought one of the
  > > > advantages over the darkroom was that once its well set up, there
  > > > would be no trying and experimenting and that I would have 100%
  > > > predictable results.
  > > >
  > > > Now, a few hundreds or probably thousands of prints later I find
  that
  > > > this is
  > > > not exactly the case. On my 2100/UT7 workflow I find the following
  > > > issues:
  > > >
  > > > 1. My output from the file + Roark curves is roughly, but never
  > > > exactly what I see on my monitor. When I look at the grayscale on my
  > > > flat panel the 100% to 0%
  > > > steps are quite well separated, but in the uncorrected print the
  deep
  > > > shadows (around 95%
  > > > black) are not well resolved, 95% comes out totally
  > > > black: So I had to make a curve that boosts the deep shadows.
  > > >
  > > > 2. I often find myself having to do several prints of the same
  photo,
  > > > because the general "look" of the print is not like on the
  screen, see
  > > > also my other message about the foliage and trees.
  > > >
  > > > 3. The most mysterious thing is that my output seems to vary
  from time
  > > > to time. Sometimes I find the prints too dark compared to the
  screen,
  > > > sometimes they are slightly too light.
  > > >
  > > > Finally its not that different from the darkroom, I would say
  > > > gradually more predictable (maybe even by a large margin, but
  that is
  > > > probably because my traditional darkroom skills are so poor).
  > > >
  > > > So, do you have a 100% WYSIWYG workflow?
  > > >
  > > > Thanks for your input,
  > > >
  > > > Bernhard
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steve

Your Knocking my socks off this is way over my head..heheheheh

Hope all Is well In Quite Seattle

Jim

  -----Original Message-----
  From: sdmey4@... [mailto:sdmey4@...]
  Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 11:01 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] How reliable/ precise is your b&w print workflow?


  David, I agree with all 3 of your paragraphs 100% ;0  I can only add 
  ' affordable, and easy" are pretty subjective. Many ways to skin a cat so to 
  speak, and I have tried them all from the cheapest to most expensive. If easy 
  means using someone else's rgb curves on YOUR printer and monitior than its no 
  wonder there are inconsistencies all over. I'm a big fan of easy and 
  consistancy, so my point is, you have to do it yourself. Printing out patches and 
  measuring with the eyeone is a breeze, no fuss no muss, just plain and simple 
  linerized greyscale. What a great place to start.
  For users who don't have a handle on color management or the knowledge to 
  write there own perfect RGB curves for conversion, what could be easier? Those 
  expensive options pay for themselves rather quickly.
  I lost my taste for the epson driver along time ago, fourtunately I only use 
  wide format machines now. People think this is too expensive? buts its really 
  a money saver and easier in so many ways.
  Steve M.

  In a message dated 10/15/2004 7:31:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
  fotografx@... writes:

  > Steve,
  > 
  > I agree with your first sentence without reservation. However printing black
  > &white is not limited to a “same as” workflow. There is no reason a user
  > cannot convert grayscale to RGB and thereby make the workflow process
  > amenable to the same controls as color. Several B&W (black ink) options
  > employ some aspect of this strategy. For instance the MIS/Paul Roark option
  > is a simple one which, although it requires using a “same as” CMS profile
  > setting in Photoshop,  also involves a print driver setting of “no color
  > adjustment” .  This allows the use of RGB curve files applied to the open
  > image which in a broad sense functions in lieu of a profile selection in
  > PrintSpace, providing data going to the printer altered to linearize the
  > application of CcMmY ink position output.
  > Snip >>>>>>
  > 



  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See ?Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines? in the Files section:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE ?OWNER? AND ?MODERATORS? OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  ?OWNER? AND ?MODERATORS? OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks"
<fotografx@m...> wrote:
> Steve,
snip...
> Ideally it is technically and theoretically possible to fully
utilize color
> management and profiles to control B&W printing with black inks.

This has been long known. I've made hacked profiles that not only
would soft proof but partition, as did Dan Culbertson way back when.
I'm sure there were and are others less vocal. Cone is doing it now,
no doubt much better than we did.

> What is
> missing for users are two software components. The first is a way to
drive
> the printer to reproduce a standard grayscale image that would output a
> print with a set of recordings resulting from that graysscale
reflecting the
> ink application performance for each printer ink channel.

Yes, but that can also be built into the profile if the driver/RIP has
no built in way of accomplishing it.

snip...

> Obviously a user B&W calibration and profiling capability will require a
> significant investment in R&D, as well as programming and marketing
to bring
> these utilities to market.

I'm sure Jon Cone would agree wholeheartedly <G>.

> That will happen when the potential market is
> adequately recognized in size potential by those in the industry who
have
> the capability to take the risks to undertake this challenge....

Well, see the above.
Tyler

Not sure my girlfriend would agree.
All is well, other than still being in the studio at 8pm on Friday
night, which get's back to the girlfriend thing...
Hope so for you too.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Doyle"
<jdoyle1713@c...> wrote:
> Tyler
> 
> Your The Man..:)
> 
> Hope alll is well out west!!
> Jim
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: Tyler Boley [mailto:tyler@t...]
>   Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 10:56 PM
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] How reliable/ precise is your b&w print
> workflow?
> 
> 
> 
>   It'll work with any workflow.
>   Tyler
> 
>   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "edrudolpho"
>   <erudolph@p...> wrote:
>   >
>   > Will Carl's softproofing method work only with QTR or can it work
>   with other workflows?
>   >
>   > Ed
>   >
>   >
>   > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
>   <stevekale@b...>
>   > wrote:
>   > >
>   > > Carl Schofield developed a means of soft-proofing using an Eye-One
>   which I
>   > > think is very good
>   > >
>   > > > From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@v...>
>   > > > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>   > > > Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 09:04:45 -0700
>   > > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>   > > > Subject: RE: [Digital BW] How reliable/ precise is your b&w
>   print workflow?
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > > Bernhard,
>   > > >
>   > > > I share your frustration with respect to variables.  The papers,
>   inks, and
>   > > > printers all contribute to the issue.  One thing I think might
>   be helping me
>   > > > is to leave the printer on over night.  The warming up of the
>   printer during
>   > > > the day seems to be, in part, related to how long it has been
>   on.  (Room
>   > > > temperature, humidity, and sometimes I think phase of the moon
>   also probably
>   > > > contribute to the problem.)
>   > > >
>   > > > The shadow compression you describe makes me think the 2100
>   might be like
>   > > > the 1290, which prints darker than the US version (1280).
>   > > >
>   > > > The bottom line for me is that I rely on hard copy proof prints
>   before
>   > > > making critical prints.  This, of course, is no different than
>   the darkroom
>   > > > was -- unfortunately.
>   > > >
>   > > > Paul
>   > > > www.PaulRoark.com
>   > > >
>   > > > _________________
>   > > >
>   > > > -----Original Message-----
>   > > > From: Bernie Ess [mailto:albatros-@...]
>   > > > Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 3:18 AM
>   > > > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   > > > Subject: [Digital BW] How reliable/ precise is your b&w print
>   workflow?
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > > When I started b&w printing on an Epson, I thought one of the
>   > > > advantages over the darkroom was that once its well set up,
there
>   > > > would be no trying and experimenting and that I would have 100%
>   > > > predictable results.
>   > > >
>   > > > Now, a few hundreds or probably thousands of prints later I find
>   that
>   > > > this is
>   > > > not exactly the case. On my 2100/UT7 workflow I find the
following
>   > > > issues:
>   > > >
>   > > > 1. My output from the file + Roark curves is roughly, but never
>   > > > exactly what I see on my monitor. When I look at the
grayscale on my
>   > > > flat panel the 100% to 0%
>   > > > steps are quite well separated, but in the uncorrected print the
>   deep
>   > > > shadows (around 95%
>   > > > black) are not well resolved, 95% comes out totally
>   > > > black: So I had to make a curve that boosts the deep shadows.
>   > > >
>   > > > 2. I often find myself having to do several prints of the same
>   photo,
>   > > > because the general "look" of the print is not like on the
>   screen, see
>   > > > also my other message about the foliage and trees.
>   > > >
>   > > > 3. The most mysterious thing is that my output seems to vary
>   from time
>   > > > to time. Sometimes I find the prints too dark compared to the
>   screen,
>   > > > sometimes they are slightly too light.
>   > > >
>   > > > Finally its not that different from the darkroom, I would say
>   > > > gradually more predictable (maybe even by a large margin, but
>   that is
>   > > > probably because my traditional darkroom skills are so poor).
>   > > >
>   > > > So, do you have a 100% WYSIWYG workflow?
>   > > >
>   > > > Thanks for your input,
>   > > >
>   > > > Bernhard
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
>   If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
this same
> page.
> 
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
to keep
> them short.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
>   - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of
digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed
from
> the membership.
>   - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
Owner and
> Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
section:
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
>   BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
> GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED
OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE
INABILITY
> TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED
ACCESS TO OR
> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR
CONDUCT OF ANY
> THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
> 
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>               ADVERTISEMENT
> 
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> 
> 
> 
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>   Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
>     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
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> 
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Service.

> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

David, your statement below? isn't this  exactly what Ergosofts Studio print 
and Eyeone Photospectrometer do.
Priceless for consistancy!
Tyler, Am I mis reading david's statement?
Steve M.
Snip>
In a message dated 10/15/2004 7:31:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
fotografx@... writes:

> Ideally it is technically and theoretically possible to fully utilize color
> management and profiles to control B&W printing with black inks. What is
> missing for users are two software components. The first is a way to drive
> the printer to reproduce a standard grayscale image that would output a
> print with a set of recordings resulting from that graysscale reflecting the
> ink application performance for each printer ink channel.  Then the second
> step would be to “read” the densities from the test chart print. This can 
> be
> accomplished with either a flatbed scanner which has the support to output
> raw data, or with a photospectrometer. The key piece of need software would
> allow inputting the density data read from the chart to be used to write a
> profile applying preset algorithms to match ideal aim-points to control the
> ink application for each ink color channel.
> Snip>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tyler,
Oh Well The Girlfriend Thing.. At Least They Cant Spend Your Money..Like a
Wife Can...

and Its 11:11 Here In Jersey..and I'm just catchin Up!

Lets all have a Great weekend!

Jim

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Tyler Boley [mailto:tyler@...]
  Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 11:10 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] How reliable/ precise is your b&w print
workflow?



  Not sure my girlfriend would agree.
  All is well, other than still being in the studio at 8pm on Friday
  night, which get's back to the girlfriend thing...
  Hope so for you too.
  Tyler

  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Doyle"
  <jdoyle1713@c...> wrote:
  > Tyler
  >
  > Your The Man..:)
  >
  > Hope alll is well out west!!
  > Jim
  >   -----Original Message-----


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, sdmey4@a... wrote:
> David, your statement below? isn't this  exactly what Ergosofts
Studio print 
> and Eyeone Photospectrometer do.
> Priceless for consistancy!
> Tyler, Am I mis reading david's statement?

Sort of, but not exactly. What StudioPrint, QTR, and I think IJC do is
hardware linearize. Basically density adjustments. I'd describe it as
a 2 dimensional mapping, not what a color managed icc conversion does,
which is a 3 dimensional color mapping, and done so by the icc
standards. For example our SP density files can't be utilized by icc
aware apps.

In terms of repeatable consistancy, via accurate hardware
measurements, for grayscale output, in a sense it amounts to the same
thing.
How's that for confusing?
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Doyle"
<jdoyle1713@c...> wrote:
> Tyler,
> Oh Well The Girlfriend Thing.. At Least They Cant Spend Your
Money..Like a
> Wife Can...

You're kidding! Someone could have stepped up and informed me of that
years ago, and they call themselves friends?!
Jim, bag it. You've got all weekend to catch up with quieter phones.
I'm outa here.
Tyler

In a message dated 10/15/2004 8:31:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
tyler@... writes:

> Sort of, but not exactly. What StudioPrint, QTR, and I think IJC do is
> hardware linearize. Basically density adjustments. I'd describe it as
> a 2 dimensional mapping, not what a color managed icc conversion does,
> which is a 3 dimensional color mapping, and done so by the icc
> standards. For example our SP density files can't be utilized by icc
> aware apps.
> 
> In terms of repeatable consistancy, via accurate hardware
> measurements, for grayscale output, in a sense it amounts to the same
> thing.
> How's that for confusing?
> Tyler
> The later it gets the more sense you make, not confusing at all.
Steve M.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steve M.,

Not according to the documentation that is published in the Ergosoft web
site.  They state specifically that it is not ICC compliant. As far as I can
establish all of the available, commercial RIPS for black and white printing
are intentionally proprietary, except of course for the Linux GIMP based
solution. From my perspective it is a technical solution dictated by a
business model. That model essentially assumes a delimited market potential,
in part reflected by the printers supported, and which offers limited user
control or independence. It¹s the Polaroid philosophy now perpetuated as
much as they can by Epson.

I am not being critical in terms of what it does, or for that matter what
several other competitors also do. What I am suggesting is that it does not
parallel for instance what color management companies do like Monaco,
Gretag-Macbeth or ColorVision, which is base their solutions on a standard
which interfaces seamlessly with  OS based CMS¹s¹ supporting full user
independence after purchasing the software/hardware.

Regards, David B. Brooks
Shutterbug Magazine
E-mail: fotografx@mindspring.com




On 10/15/04 8:11 PM, "sdmey4@..." <sdmey4@...> wrote:

> David, your statement below? isn't this  exactly what Ergosofts Studio print
> and Eyeone Photospectrometer do.
> Priceless for consistancy!
> Tyler, Am I mis reading david's statement?
> Steve M.
> Snip>
> In a message dated 10/15/2004 7:31:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> fotografx@mindspring.com writes:
> 
>> > Ideally it is technically and theoretically possible to fully utilize color
>> > management and profiles to control B&W printing with black inks. What is
>> > missing for users are two software components. The first is a way to drive
>> > the printer to reproduce a standard grayscale image that would output a
>> > print with a set of recordings resulting from that graysscale reflecting >>
the
>> > ink application performance for each printer ink channel.  Then the second
>> > step would be to ³read² the densities from the test chart print. This can
>> > be
>> > accomplished with either a flatbed scanner which has the support to output
>> > raw data, or with a photospectrometer. The key piece of need software would
>> > allow inputting the density data read from the chart to be used to write a
>> > profile applying preset algorithms to match ideal aim-points to control the
>> > ink application for each ink color channel.
>> > Snip>
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>>Cone is doing it now, no doubt much better than we did.<<

Tyler,

ICQ is not ICC compliant. As I mentioned in another post on this issue the
RIP¹s and plugin solutions that are available are all proprietary, excepting
of course the Linux based GIMP RIP.

What I was suggesting is a system truly parallel to ICC based color
management tools which will support calibration/characterization that will
generate ICC compliant profiles which require no special proprietary PS
plugins, special drivers or RIP¹s.  What I am envisioning is an entirely
independent user facilitated adjunct to the present color management
standard that will interface seamlessly, and does not tie the user to any
particular brand of inkset or printer model.

I think this will be essential for full acceptance by the prosumer
marketplace. What the current situation in B&W printing solution reminds me
of was when Agfa released FotoTune 1.0 some 15 years ago. It only worked
with a full complement of Agfa hardware and software.

Regards, David B. Brooks
Shutterbug Magazine
E-mail: fotografx@...




On 10/15/04 8:04 PM, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@...> wrote:

> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks"
> <fotografx@m...> wrote:
>> > Steve,
> snip...
>> > Ideally it is technically and theoretically possible to fully
> utilize color
>> > management and profiles to control B&W printing with black inks.
> 
> This has been long known. I've made hacked profiles that not only
> would soft proof but partition, as did Dan Culbertson way back when.
> I'm sure there were and are others less vocal. Cone is doing it now,
> no doubt much better than we did.
> 
>> > What is
>> > missing for users are two software components. The first is a way to
> drive
>> > the printer to reproduce a standard grayscale image that would output a
>> > print with a set of recordings resulting from that graysscale
> reflecting the
>> > ink application performance for each printer ink channel.
> 
> Yes, but that can also be built into the profile if the driver/RIP has
> no built in way of accomplishing it.
> 
> snip...
> 
>> > Obviously a user B&W calibration and profiling capability will require a
>> > significant investment in R&D, as well as programming and marketing
> to bring
>> > these utilities to market.
> 
> I'm sure Jon Cone would agree wholeheartedly <G>.
> 
>> > That will happen when the potential market is
>> > adequately recognized in size potential by those in the industry who
> have
>> > the capability to take the risks to undertake this challenge....
> 
> Well, see the above.
> Tyler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
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> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks"
<fotografx@m...> wrote:
> >>Cone is doing it now, no doubt much better than we did.<<
> 
> Tyler,
> 
> ICQ is not ICC compliant.

David, ICQ is way old news, not what Cone is doing now. The new
profiles are fully icc compliant profiles, used with the Epson RGB
driver. Of course that does not satisfy your other interests below, as
they will probably not profile competitor's inksets, and they do it in
house, not offering the profiling system for sale.
Regarding the rest, I'll answer in a bit to your previous post with a
long and boring reply <G>.
Tyler

> As I mentioned in another post on this issue the
> RIP¹s and plugin solutions that are available are all proprietary,
excepting
> of course the Linux based GIMP RIP.
> 
> What I was suggesting is a system truly parallel to ICC based color
> management tools which will support calibration/characterization
that will
> generate ICC compliant profiles which require no special proprietary PS
> plugins, special drivers or RIP¹s.  What I am envisioning is an entirely
> independent user facilitated adjunct to the present color management
> standard that will interface seamlessly, and does not tie the user
to any
> particular brand of inkset or printer model.
> 
> I think this will be essential for full acceptance by the prosumer
> marketplace. What the current situation in B&W printing solution
reminds me

> of was when Agfa released FotoTune 1.0 some 15 years ago. It only worked
> with a full complement of Agfa hardware and software.
> 
> Regards, David B. Brooks
> Shutterbug Magazine
> E-mail: fotografx@m...
>

Steve M.,

I get the picture of where you are coming from, and I have no reason to
dispute your perspective. However, I know there are a lot of serious
photographers out there (I get piles of e-mail from them) who are interested
and would become involved but need to see a flat boulevard instead of a
narrow, steep path in front of them. I think B&W printing today is analogous
to being into computers in the mid 80¹s working from a command line, and it
will take the equivalent of a GUI to get them to dive in.

Why do I care, simply because of the advantage of numbers. I realize I would
not have had much of the pro equipment I have worked with over the years if
it weren¹t for all of the enthusiast doctors and lawyers buying 10, 20, 30,
a 100 times as much product as we pro¹s used.  Unless the enthusiasts are
into this in the numbers that are possible the market size will limit
development and keep costs higher than they would be otherwise, and a lot of
neat innovative stuff will never get developed.

Regards, David B. Brooks
Shutterbug Magazine
E-mail: fotografx@...




On 10/15/04 8:00 PM, "sdmey4@..." <sdmey4@...> wrote:

> David, I agree with all 3 of your paragraphs 100% ;0  I can only add
> ' affordable, and easy" are pretty subjective. Many ways to skin a cat so to
> speak, and I have tried them all from the cheapest to most expensive. If easy
> means using someone else's rgb curves on YOUR printer and monitior than its no
> wonder there are inconsistencies all over. I'm a big fan of easy and
> consistancy, so my point is, you have to do it yourself. Printing out patches
> and 
> measuring with the eyeone is a breeze, no fuss no muss, just plain and simple
> linerized greyscale. What a great place to start.
> For users who don't have a handle on color management or the knowledge to
> write there own perfect RGB curves for conversion, what could be easier? Those
> expensive options pay for themselves rather quickly.
> I lost my taste for the epson driver along time ago, fourtunately I only use
> wide format machines now. People think this is too expensive? buts its really
> a money saver and easier in so many ways.
> Steve M.
> 
> In a message dated 10/15/2004 7:31:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> fotografx@... writes:
> 
>> > Steve,
>> > 
>> > I agree with your first sentence without reservation. However printing
>> black
>> > &white is not limited to a ³same as² workflow. There is no reason a user
>> > cannot convert grayscale to RGB and thereby make the workflow process
>> > amenable to the same controls as color. Several B&W (black ink) options
>> > employ some aspect of this strategy. For instance the MIS/Paul Roark option
>> > is a simple one which, although it requires using a ³same as² CMS profile
>> > setting in Photoshop,  also involves a print driver setting of ³no color
>> > adjustment² .  This allows the use of RGB curve files applied to the open
>> > image which in a broad sense functions in lieu of a profile selection in
>> > PrintSpace, providing data going to the printer altered to linearize the
>> > application of CcMmY ink position output.
>> > Snip >>>>>>
>> > 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership
> without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the
> membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See ?Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines? in the Files section:
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> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
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> 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks"
<fotografx@m...> wrote:
> Steve M.,
> 
> Not according to the documentation that is published in the Ergosoft web
> site.  They state specifically that it is not ICC compliant. As far
as I can
> establish all of the available, commercial RIPS for black and white
printing
> are intentionally proprietary, except of course for the Linux GIMP based
> solution. From my perspective it is a technical solution dictated by a
> business model. That model essentially assumes a delimited market
potential,
> in part reflected by the printers supported, and which offers
limited user
> control or independence. It¹s the Polaroid philosophy now perpetuated as
> much as they can by Epson.

This requires some clarification, which might effect some of your
views. What StudioPrint does for quads is really just an extremely
well executed expansion of features expected in any good RIP. All
these drivers, even the OEM ones, have the ability to partition. They
do it from light cyan to cyan, light magenta to magenta, and with the
UC printers light K to K as well. The good RIPs offer more user
control, not less, by giving the user options in controling those
partitions and other controls as well. All good RIPs offer the user
the ability to linearize each channel, including those made up of a
light and dark component. This is simply density tuning of the driver
per channel, not in the icc data path, also a user control not part of
OEM drivers. ICC profiling is done AFTER the RIP is tuned in this
manner for the particular printer, inkset, and paper being used.
All StudioPrint did was add a user selectable monochrome mode, and add
two more (for now) partitions, a very light black and a very very
light black. And of course like any good RIP, this channel is also
hardware linearizable. This has little to do with any color management
yet. It can be compared to the K only mode in the Epson driver, but
with that K channel partitionable into multiple inks. As you know,
when you select K only in the Epson driver, color management in the
driver is disabled, only gamma adjustments are offered. This makes
sense as the entire data path is single channel.
So actually, all that has been done is an expansion of features
already expected in good RIPs, perhaps what is proprietory is how well
it has been implemented.
In fact, the whole system is so user adjustable, it can be made to
work with practically any inkset on any supported printer. You could
even, in CMYK mode, used a 4 part quad inkset for K, and still have C,
M, and Y, inks for toning in a 7 ink printer, or the same with a 3
part K in a 6 ink printer. All kinds of things are possible, and all
icc compatable in multichannel modes. It couldn't be more open.
These are not confinements dictated by a business model, we expect
these features from all good RIPs. The one that is a bit of a black
box with little user control, and a lot of secret "magic", is
ImagePrint, but it's users are quite happy and not complaining, and
even it is fully icc compliant.

> I am not being critical in terms of what it does, or for that matter
what
> several other competitors also do. What I am suggesting is that it
does not
> parallel for instance what color management companies do like Monaco,
> Gretag-Macbeth or ColorVision, which is base their solutions on a
standard
> which interfaces seamlessly with  OS based CMS¹s¹ supporting full user
> independence after purchasing the software/hardware.

Actually David, these companies are what are standing in our way of
placing color management in our single channel monochromatic data
path. They offer no way of building single channel luminosity only
profiling. Single channel icc compliant profiles are possible, but not
yet a feature of these apps. I have one obscure app that will make
them, but the printed percentage curves have to be entered by hand,
not measured in. It will also make what it calls a rich black profile
from measured color profiles, paper white, K point, the whole deal,
but this is not what we need.
As soon as one of these profiling apps allows us to build single
channel icc profiles made with our measurement devices, we can profile
any grayscale output device/driver/inkset/paper/etc., and if outputing
from photoshop, select it as our printer profile and be on our way. If
printing to a RIP, not out of an app, we'd simply have to convert and
save before printing, if the RIP or driver is in a currentaly non-icc
compliant single channel mode, as most of these special monochrome
drivers are, or SP in quad mode.
I hope all that makes sense, and if I have misunderstood and gone off
on a tangent, please accept my apology in advance.
Tyler

I am sure that the next stage of B&W printing will be to allow a colour
managed workflow that includes accurate control over the inks but I suspect
this is not an easy exercise (otherwise I am sure it would be much more
prevalent today) and will likely take some time.  The solutions that exist
along these lines today are expensive and inflexible (they don't transport
to new inks for example).  I have not used Paul's workflow but I understand
it involves the application of curves to an RGB file to alter the colour
composition of the file in order to manipulate the inks via a colour driver.
Hardly a what you see is what you get workflow.  My point was that there
exists today an easy way to get quite a good softproof from any B&W
workflow.  It is available to anyone with an Eye-One Photo.  I have found
that this has taken a lot of the trial and error out of my B&W workflow.  I
can simply work on an image and then soft proof for the paper I intend to
use and then apply an adjustment curve so that it then matches my original
file.  Easy. No more too light/too dark vs screen. Now obviously if my
display were not correctly calibrated and I have not built soft proof files
(with Carl's workflow) for my B&W printer output then I would again be
shooting in the dark.

> From: "David B. Brooks" <fotografx@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 19:29:37 -0700
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Cc: <stevekale@btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] How reliable/ precise is your b&w print workflow?
> 
> 
> Steve,
> 
> I agree with your first sentence without reservation. However printing black
> & white is not limited to a ³same as² workflow. There is no reason a user
> cannot convert grayscale to RGB and thereby make the workflow process
> amenable to the same controls as color. Several B&W (black ink) options
> employ some aspect of this strategy. For instance the MIS/Paul Roark option
> is a simple one which, although it requires using a ³same as² CMS profile
> setting in Photoshop,  also involves a print driver setting of ³no color
> adjustment² .  This allows the use of RGB curve files applied to the open
> image which in a broad sense functions in lieu of a profile selection in
> PrintSpace, providing data going to the printer altered to linearize the
> application of CcMmY ink position output.
> 
> Ideally it is technically and theoretically possible to fully utilize color
> management and profiles to control B&W printing with black inks. What is
> missing for users are two software components. The first is a way to drive
> the printer to reproduce a standard grayscale image that would output a
> print with a set of recordings resulting from that graysscale reflecting the
> ink application performance for each printer ink channel.  Then the second
> step would be to ³read² the densities from the test chart print. This can be
> accomplished with either a flatbed scanner which has the support to output
> raw data, or with a photospectrometer. The key piece of need software would
> allow inputting the density data read from the chart to be used to write a
> profile applying preset algorithms to match ideal aim-points to control the
> ink application for each ink color channel.
> 
> Obviously a user B&W calibration and profiling capability will require a
> significant investment in R&D, as well as programming and marketing to bring
> these utilities to market. That will happen when the potential market is
> adequately recognized in size potential by those in the industry who have
> the capability to take the risks to undertake this challenge. From my
> perspective there are many times more photographers already with a foot in
> digital who have an interest in a B&W capability (if it is reasonably easy
> and affordable), than there are among those already involved and using some
> kind of currently available B&W printing option.
> 
> Regards, David B. Brooks
> Shutterbug Magazine
> E-mail: fotografx@...
> 
>   
>

One more quick comment, I was also able to test ColorVision¹s new
Spyder2Pro colorimeter and software, and was very impressed. I've used
and tested a few different hardware calibration apps/devices, and this
seems very good.
Also, I just wanted to add that it's nice to you posting on this list,
David. Hope I haven't chased you off.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks"
<fotografx@m...> wrote:
> 
> Bernie,
> 
> May I suggest that ³color management² and monitor calibration and
profiling
> could at least reduce the discrepancy between what you see on-screen and
> what you obtain in a print even though you are working with
grayscale and
> not color.  I have jumped in here in part because I was just delivered
> ColorVision¹s new Spyder2Pro colorimeter and software, and the resulting
> calibration and profiling I am now obtaining is amazingly
well-matched and
> the screen gray is at a neutral balance I¹ve not seen before. And
may I also
> suggest that with an LCD flat panel, its grater brightness range
compared to
> a CRT, makes it that much more difficult to obtain screen matching
in prints
> as there is an inherent gamma discrepancy. CRT¹s are much closer in
> brightness range and apparent gamma effect to a print density range.
> 
> Regards, David B. Brooks
> Shutterbug Magazine
> E-mail: fotografx@m...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/15/04 4:17 AM, "Bernie Ess" <albatros-@...> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > When I started b&w printing on an Epson, I thought one of the
> > advantages over the darkroom was that once its well set up, there
> > would be no trying and experimenting and that I would have 100%
> > predictable results.
> > 
> > Now, a few hundreds or probably thousands of prints later I find that
> > this is
> > not exactly the case. On my 2100/UT7 workflow I find the following
> > issues:
> > 
> > 1. My output from the file + Roark curves is roughly, but never
> > exactly what I see on my monitor. When I look at the grayscale on my
> > flat panel the 100% to 0%
> > steps are quite well separated, but in the uncorrected print the deep
> > shadows (around 95%
> > black) are not well resolved, 95% comes out totally
> > black: So I had to make a curve that boosts the deep shadows.
> > 
> > 2. I often find myself having to do several prints of the same photo,
> > because the general "look" of the print is not like on the screen, see
> > also my other message about the foliage and trees.
> > 
> > 3. The most mysterious thing is that my output seems to vary from time
> > to time. Sometimes I find the prints too dark compared to the screen,
> > sometimes they are slightly too light.
> > 
> > Finally its not that different from the darkroom, I would say
> > gradually more predictable (maybe even by a large margin, but that is
> > probably because my traditional darkroom skills are so poor).
> > 
> > So, do you have a 100% WYSIWYG workflow?
> > 
> > Thanks for your input,
> > 
> > Bernhard
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
resources as
> > they are often being updated.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
this same
> > page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
to keep
> > them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
flames.
> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership
> > without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of
digital B&W
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
removed from the
> > membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
Owner and
> > Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > 
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
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> > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
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> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tyler,

One of the reasons I am encouraged there is a possibility a B&W photo
printing solution could become much more than any today  is and obtain
commercial support that¹s easily effective and affordable is from observing
what ColorVision has accomplished with their Spyder monitor calibration and
profiling product over the last two years or so.

Usually it is I who leaves because I tend to a rather persistent gadfly and
wear out my welcome<S>.

Regards, David B. Brooks
Shutterbug Magazine
E-mail: fotografx@mindspring.com




On 10/16/04 9:00 AM, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@...> wrote:

> 
> One more quick comment, I was also able to test ColorVision¹s new
> Spyder2Pro colorimeter and software, and was very impressed. I've used
> and tested a few different hardware calibration apps/devices, and this
> seems very good.
> Also, I just wanted to add that it's nice to you posting on this list,
> David. Hope I haven't chased you off.
> Tyler
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks"
> <fotografx@m...> wrote:
>> > 
>> > Bernie,
>> > 
>> > May I suggest that ³color management² and monitor calibration and
> profiling
>> > could at least reduce the discrepancy between what you see on-screen and
>> > what you obtain in a print even though you are working with
> grayscale and
>> > not color.  I have jumped in here in part because I was just delivered
>> > ColorVision¹s new Spyder2Pro colorimeter and software, and the resulting
>> > calibration and profiling I am now obtaining is amazingly
> well-matched and
>> > the screen gray is at a neutral balance I¹ve not seen before. And
> may I also
>> > suggest that with an LCD flat panel, its grater brightness range
> compared to
>> > a CRT, makes it that much more difficult to obtain screen matching
> in prints
>> > as there is an inherent gamma discrepancy. CRT¹s are much closer in
>> > brightness range and apparent gamma effect to a print density range.
>> > 
>> > Regards, David B. Brooks
>> > Shutterbug Magazine
>> > E-mail: fotografx@m...
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > On 10/15/04 4:17 AM, "Bernie Ess" <albatros-@...> wrote:
>> > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > When I started b&w printing on an Epson, I thought one of the
>>> > > advantages over the darkroom was that once its well set up, there
>>> > > would be no trying and experimenting and that I would have 100%
>>> > > predictable results.
>>> > > 
>>> > > Now, a few hundreds or probably thousands of prints later I find that
>>> > > this is
>>> > > not exactly the case. On my 2100/UT7 workflow I find the following
>>> > > issues:
>>> > > 
>>> > > 1. My output from the file + Roark curves is roughly, but never
>>> > > exactly what I see on my monitor. When I look at the grayscale on my
>>> > > flat panel the 100% to 0%
>>> > > steps are quite well separated, but in the uncorrected print the deep
>>> > > shadows (around 95%
>>> > > black) are not well resolved, 95% comes out totally
>>> > > black: So I had to make a curve that boosts the deep shadows.
>>> > > 
>>> > > 2. I often find myself having to do several prints of the same photo,
>>> > > because the general "look" of the print is not like on the screen, see
>>> > > also my other message about the foliage and trees.
>>> > > 
>>> > > 3. The most mysterious thing is that my output seems to vary from time
>>> > > to time. Sometimes I find the prints too dark compared to the screen,
>>> > > sometimes they are slightly too light.
>>> > > 
>>> > > Finally its not that different from the darkroom, I would say
>>> > > gradually more predictable (maybe even by a large margin, but that is
>>> > > probably because my traditional darkroom skills are so poor).
>>> > > 
>>> > > So, do you have a 100% WYSIWYG workflow?
>>> > > 
>>> > > Thanks for your input,
>>> > > 
>>> > > Bernhard
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
> resources as
>>> > > they are often being updated.
>>> > > 
>>> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>> > > 
>>> > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
> wish to
>>> > > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
> this same
>>> > > page.
>>> > > 
>>> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
> to keep
>>> > > them short.
>>> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> flames.
>>> > > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership
>>> > > without notice.
>>> > > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of
> digital B&W
>>> > > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
> removed from the
>>> > > membership.
>>> > > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
>>> > > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
> Owner and
>>> > > Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> section:
>>> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>>> > > 
>>> > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT
>>> > > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
>>> > > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
> LIABLE TO YOU
>>> > > FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY
>>> > > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL,
>>> > > USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF
>>> > > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
>>> > > DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE
> DIGITAL BW,
>>> > > THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION
> OF YOUR
>>> > > TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD
> PARTY ON THE
>>> > > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER
> RELATING TO THE
>>> > > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>>> > >  
>>> > >  ADVERTISEMENT
>>> > >  
>>> > >
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>>> > >
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>>> > > hardbank.com/hcs/hcsapplication?pf=PLApply&media=EMYHNL40F21004SS>
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
>>> > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
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>>> > > scribe> 
>>> > > *  
>>> > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
>>> > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>>> > > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership
> without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the
> membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
> “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR
> TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
> 
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>  
>  ADVERTISEMENT
>  
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> 
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> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
> *  
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> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
> 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

David,

Thanks for the updating. I am aware of the low end deficiencys
(blacks) of CRTs but I was unaware of advances in LCDs in respect to
max illumination capabilities. That they now excede the brightest CRTs
is interesting. The gamma info is interesting too. I'm not
particularly surprised that it all has to be referenced to various and
sundry adjustments,profiling etc. Your reference to reflectance versus
luminance is what throws me. I suppose it's all relative since one can
put as bright a light as desired on a finished print and thereby match
the upper end of the scale with whichever screen is used. There are
many ways to skin the cat. 
Best.

Duane



-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks"
<fotografx@m...> wrote:
> Duane,
> 
> A typical LCD has a maximum luminance these days of around 250
cd/m2, but
> usually adjusted for ideal photographic image display LCD¹s are
choked down
> to between 150 and 180 cd/m2, with a black point between 0.05 and 0.09.
> CRT¹s after calibration and profiling will have a luminance range
from 0.07
> to 0.90.  A fine print¹s density range is much closer, ideally
slightly more
> measured with a densitometer than the range of a CRT, but very much less
> than the range of an LCD. However, on a perceptual basis because a
print is
> viewed by usually less than ideal illumination (diffuse) the
perceived tonal
> range is even closer to that of a CRT because the CRT display is
projected
> rather than reflected light (unless contaminated by high levels of
ambient
> illumination).
> 
> Additionally the standard 2.2 gamma setting for displays produces a very
> different midpoint gray value between a CRT, which closely matches a
print
> midpoint gray, compared to an LCD which with its longer luminance
range has
> a much brighter midpoint gray. So far as I know Barco is the only LCD
> offered which has a gamma correction function that adjust for this
midpoint
> gray discrepancy.
> 
> Regards, David B. Brooks
> Shutterbug Magazine
> E-mail: fotografx@m...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/15/04 11:34 AM, "dlruckus" <dlruckus@y...> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > David,
> > 
> > One would think that the flat panel LCD screen would be just the
> > opposite and be closer to paper than the CRT. That has been my
> > experience to date but perhaps I'm missing the most recent advances in
> > that field.
> > 
> > Best.
> > Duane
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks"
> > <fotografx@m...> wrote:
> >> > 
> >> > Bernie,
> >> > 
> >> > May I suggest that ³color management² and monitor calibration and
> > profiling
> >> > could at least reduce the discrepancy between what you see
on-screen and
> >> > what you obtain in a print even though you are working with
> > grayscale and
> >> > not color.  I have jumped in here in part because I was just
delivered
> >> > ColorVision¹s new Spyder2Pro colorimeter and software, and the
resulting
> >> > calibration and profiling I am now obtaining is amazingly
> > well-matched and
> >> > the screen gray is at a neutral balance I¹ve not seen before. And
> > may I also
> >> > suggest that with an LCD flat panel, its grater brightness range
> > compared to
> >> > a CRT, makes it that much more difficult to obtain screen matching
> > in prints
> >> > as there is an inherent gamma discrepancy. CRT¹s are much closer in
> >> > brightness range and apparent gamma effect to a print density
range.
> >> > 
> >> > Regards, David B. Brooks
> >> > Shutterbug Magazine
> >> > E-mail: fotografx@m...
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > On 10/15/04 4:17 AM, "Bernie Ess" <albatros-@...> wrote:
> >> > 
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > When I started b&w printing on an Epson, I thought one of the
> >>> > > advantages over the darkroom was that once its well set up,
there
> >>> > > would be no trying and experimenting and that I would have 100%
> >>> > > predictable results.
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > Now, a few hundreds or probably thousands of prints later I
find that
> >>> > > this is
> >>> > > not exactly the case. On my 2100/UT7 workflow I find the
following
> >>> > > issues:
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > 1. My output from the file + Roark curves is roughly, but never
> >>> > > exactly what I see on my monitor. When I look at the
grayscale on my
> >>> > > flat panel the 100% to 0%
> >>> > > steps are quite well separated, but in the uncorrected print
the deep
> >>> > > shadows (around 95%
> >>> > > black) are not well resolved, 95% comes out totally
> >>> > > black: So I had to make a curve that boosts the deep shadows.
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > 2. I often find myself having to do several prints of the
same photo,
> >>> > > because the general "look" of the print is not like on the
screen, see
> >>> > > also my other message about the foliage and trees.
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > 3. The most mysterious thing is that my output seems to vary
from time
> >>> > > to time. Sometimes I find the prints too dark compared to
the screen,
> >>> > > sometimes they are slightly too light.
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > Finally its not that different from the darkroom, I would say
> >>> > > gradually more predictable (maybe even by a large margin,
but that is
> >>> > > probably because my traditional darkroom skills are so poor).
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > So, do you have a 100% WYSIWYG workflow?
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > Thanks for your input,
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > Bernhard
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
> > resources as
> >>> > > they are often being updated.
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
> > wish to
> >>> > > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
> > this same
> >>> > > page.
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >>> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
messages
> > to keep
> >>> > > them short.
> >>> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > flames.
> >>> > > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed
from the
> > membership
> >>> > > without notice.
> >>> > > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of
> > digital B&W
> >>> > > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
> > removed from the
> >>> > > membership.
> >>> > > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group
rules and
> >>> > > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the
group
> > Owner and
> >>> > > Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> > section:
> >>> > >
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL
BW, THE
> > PRINT
> >>> > > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE
"OWNER" AND
> >>> > > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
> > LIABLE TO YOU
> >>> > > FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> > EXEMPLARY
> >>> > > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> > PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> >>> > > USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
> > "MODERATORS" OF
> >>> > > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
> > POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> >>> > > DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO
USE THE
> > DIGITAL BW,
> >>> > > THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION
> > OF YOUR
> >>> > > TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD
> > PARTY ON THE
> >>> > > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER
> > RELATING TO THE
> >>> > > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >>> > >  
> >>> > >  ADVERTISEMENT
> >>> > >  
> >>> > >
> >
<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129jjh7kv/M=315388.5497957.6576270.3001176/D=grou
> >>> > >
> >
ps/S=1705019182:HM/EXP=1097925477/A=2372354/R=0/SIG=12id813k2/*https://www.orc
> >>> > >
hardbank.com/hcs/hcsapplication?pf=PLApply&media=EMYHNL40F21004SS>
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>> > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
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> >>> > > scribe> 
> >>> > > *  
> >>> > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of Service
> >>> > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
> >>> > > 
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
resources as
> > they are often being updated.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
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wish to
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> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership
> > without notice.
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> > TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD
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> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-

Note:

Sorry about all the trailing stuff in previous message. My apology to
group.

Duane








-- In Di<dlruckus@y...> wrote:

> 
> David,
> 
> Thanks for the updating. I am aware of the low end deficiencys
> (blacks) of CRTs but I was unaware of advances in LCDs in respect to
> max illumination capabilities. That they now excede the brightest CRTs
> is interesting. The gamma info is interesting too. I'm not
> particularly surprised that it all has to be referenced to various and
> sundry adjustments,profiling etc. Your reference to reflectance versus
> luminance is what throws me. I suppose it's all relative since one can
> put as bright a light as desired on a finished print and thereby match
> the upper end of the scale with whichever screen is used. There are
> many ways to skin the cat. 
> Best.
> 
> Duane
> 
> 
>

Duane,

I believe you would find that it is not all relative. No matter how much
light you apply to illuminating a print, the density range of the print
remains the same. However, with an LCD the black luminance remains little
changed when you up the amount of light pushed through the screen with the
backlight, so the maximum luminance climbs producing a much greater
luminance range. In fact some LCD¹s now being sold have a contrast ratio of
600:1. There is no possible way to obtain effective print matching with that
kind of display performance. But it does allow a stockbroker to easily read
charts and graphs even on a sunny day if he is in a corner office.

Regards, David B. Brooks
Shutterbug Magazine
E-mail: fotografx@...

 


On 10/16/04 12:17 PM, "dlruckus" <dlruckus@...> wrote:

> 
> David,
> 
> Thanks for the updating. I am aware of the low end deficiencys
> (blacks) of CRTs but I was unaware of advances in LCDs in respect to
> max illumination capabilities. That they now excede the brightest CRTs
> is interesting. The gamma info is interesting too. I'm not
> particularly surprised that it all has to be referenced to various and
> sundry adjustments,profiling etc. Your reference to reflectance versus
> luminance is what throws me. I suppose it's all relative since one can
> put as bright a light as desired on a finished print and thereby match
> the upper end of the scale with whichever screen is used. There are
> many ways to skin the cat.
> Best.
> 
> Duane
> 
> 
> 
> -- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks"
> <fotografx@m...> wrote:
>> > Duane,
>> > 
>> > A typical LCD has a maximum luminance these days of around 250
> cd/m2, but
>> > usually adjusted for ideal photographic image display LCD¹s are
> choked down
>> > to between 150 and 180 cd/m2, with a black point between 0.05 and 0.09.
>> > CRT¹s after calibration and profiling will have a luminance range
> from 0.07
>> > to 0.90.  A fine print¹s density range is much closer, ideally
> slightly more
>> > measured with a densitometer than the range of a CRT, but very much less
>> > than the range of an LCD. However, on a perceptual basis because a
> print is
>> > viewed by usually less than ideal illumination (diffuse) the
> perceived tonal
>> > range is even closer to that of a CRT because the CRT display is
> projected
>> > rather than reflected light (unless contaminated by high levels of
> ambient
>> > illumination).
>> > 
>> > Additionally the standard 2.2 gamma setting for displays produces a very
>> > different midpoint gray value between a CRT, which closely matches a
> print
>> > midpoint gray, compared to an LCD which with its longer luminance
> range has
>> > a much brighter midpoint gray. So far as I know Barco is the only LCD
>> > offered which has a gamma correction function that adjust for this
> midpoint
>> > gray discrepancy.
>> > 
>> > Regards, David B. Brooks
>> > Shutterbug Magazine
>> > E-mail: fotografx@m...
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > On 10/15/04 11:34 AM, "dlruckus" <dlruckus@y...> wrote:
>> > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > David,
>>> > > 
>>> > > One would think that the flat panel LCD screen would be just the
>>> > > opposite and be closer to paper than the CRT. That has been my
>>> > > experience to date but perhaps I'm missing the most recent advances in
>>> > > that field.
>>> > > 
>>> > > Best.
>>> > > Duane
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks"
>>> > > <fotografx@m...> wrote:
>>>>> > >> > 
>>>>> > >> > Bernie,
>>>>> > >> > 
>>>>> > >> > May I suggest that ³color management² and monitor calibration and
>>> > > profiling
>>>>> > >> > could at least reduce the discrepancy between what you see
> on-screen and
>>>>> > >> > what you obtain in a print even though you are working with
>>> > > grayscale and
>>>>> > >> > not color.  I have jumped in here in part because I was just
> delivered
>>>>> > >> > ColorVision¹s new Spyder2Pro colorimeter and software, and the
> resulting
>>>>> > >> > calibration and profiling I am now obtaining is amazingly
>>> > > well-matched and
>>>>> > >> > the screen gray is at a neutral balance I¹ve not seen before. And
>>> > > may I also
>>>>> > >> > suggest that with an LCD flat panel, its grater brightness range
>>> > > compared to
>>>>> > >> > a CRT, makes it that much more difficult to obtain screen matching
>>> > > in prints
>>>>> > >> > as there is an inherent gamma discrepancy. CRT¹s are much closer in
>>>>> > >> > brightness range and apparent gamma effect to a print density
> range.
>>>>> > >> > 
>>>>> > >> > Regards, David B. Brooks
>>>>> > >> > Shutterbug Magazine
>>>>> > >> > E-mail: fotografx@m...
>>>>> > >> > 
>>>>> > >> > 
>>>>> > >> > 
>>>>> > >> > 
>>>>> > >> > On 10/15/04 4:17 AM, "Bernie Ess" <albatros-@...> wrote:
>>>>> > >> > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > When I started b&w printing on an Epson, I thought one of the
>>>>>>> > >>> > > advantages over the darkroom was that once its well set up,
> there
>>>>>>> > >>> > > would be no trying and experimenting and that I would have
100%
>>>>>>> > >>> > > predictable results.
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > Now, a few hundreds or probably thousands of prints later I
> find that
>>>>>>> > >>> > > this is
>>>>>>> > >>> > > not exactly the case. On my 2100/UT7 workflow I find the
> following
>>>>>>> > >>> > > issues:
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 1. My output from the file + Roark curves is roughly, but
never
>>>>>>> > >>> > > exactly what I see on my monitor. When I look at the
> grayscale on my
>>>>>>> > >>> > > flat panel the 100% to 0%
>>>>>>> > >>> > > steps are quite well separated, but in the uncorrected print
> the deep
>>>>>>> > >>> > > shadows (around 95%
>>>>>>> > >>> > > black) are not well resolved, 95% comes out totally
>>>>>>> > >>> > > black: So I had to make a curve that boosts the deep shadows.
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 2. I often find myself having to do several prints of the
> same photo,
>>>>>>> > >>> > > because the general "look" of the print is not like on the
> screen, see
>>>>>>> > >>> > > also my other message about the foliage and trees.
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 3. The most mysterious thing is that my output seems to vary
> from time
>>>>>>> > >>> > > to time. Sometimes I find the prints too dark compared to
> the screen,
>>>>>>> > >>> > > sometimes they are slightly too light.
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > Finally its not that different from the darkroom, I would say
>>>>>>> > >>> > > gradually more predictable (maybe even by a large margin,
> but that is
>>>>>>> > >>> > > probably because my traditional darkroom skills are so poor).
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > So, do you have a 100% WYSIWYG workflow?
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > Thanks for your input,
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > Bernhard
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
>>> > > resources as
>>>>>>> > >>> > > they are often being updated.
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
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you
>>> > > wish to
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>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>> > >> > 
>>>>> > >> > 
>>>>> > >> > 
>>>>> > >> > 
>>>>> > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
> resources as
>>> > > they are often being updated.
>>> > > 
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>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the
> membership.
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> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
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> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
> 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

David,

Of course you are correct in that the density range of a paper print
is considerably less than the crt/lcd image can be. That's part of the
purpose of doing the profiling to begin with. There is no doubt either
that you cannot get any darker on a crt/lcd than the absence of light
transmitted, so the appearance depends, as you said, on ambient light
conditions and the physical surface characteristics of the device. I
am happy to know that LCDs are advancing so greatly and presumably
will be easily available soon with the gamma controls you referred to.
It still seems to me that either device requires reduction in its
overall  density range to try to match a print on paper. At least to
me the visual appearance of an image on screen-no matter how carefully
calibrated- seems more luminous than the resultant print. Thats not to
say that the difference is huge and unmanageable.
I see from your other posts on advancements/hopes for more readily
useful solutions applicable to a larger audience that you feel it is
at least potentialy possible to get wysiwyg completely. One hopes for
that also. In the meantime super prints can be made despite all the
variables. It is still in my mind not much different than attaining
order and reproducible output(fine prints not consumer) ever was in
the wet darkroom. There are in fact orders of magnitude more options
and choices to be made, long learning curves, and much experimentation
to do, as witness the folks in this group.
I come from a long ago background in the photo arts and do not need to
make a living at this so am somewhat dated. The tools I require must
be fairly simple and low cost to match a retired persons income. That
is why I commented on skinning the cat in many ways. I believe the
"workflow" is paramount and there are various possible means to an
end. They are not always universal or even broadly desirable but
thankfully can be workable.
I didn't mean to be disputive or to question your expertise. Just an
old xxxx looking for more enlightment.
Best.
Duane



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks"
<fotografx@m...> wrote:
> Duane,
> 
> I believe you would find that it is not all relative. No matter how much
> light you apply to illuminating a print, the density range of the print
> remains the same. However, with an LCD the black luminance remains
little
> changed when you up the amount of light pushed through the screen
with the
> backlight, so the maximum luminance climbs producing a much greater
> luminance range. In fact some LCD¹s now being sold have a contrast
ratio of
> 600:1. There is no possible way to obtain effective print matching
with that
> kind of display performance. But it does allow a stockbroker to
easily read
> charts and graphs even on a sunny day if he is in a corner office.
> 
> Regards, David B. Brooks
> Shutterbug Magazine
> E-mail: fotografx@m...
> 
>  
> 
> 
> On 10/16/04 12:17 PM, "dlruckus" <dlruckus@y...> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > David,
> > 
> > Thanks for the updating. I am aware of the low end deficiencys
> > (blacks) of CRTs but I was unaware of advances in LCDs in respect to
> > max illumination capabilities. That they now excede the brightest CRTs
> > is interesting. The gamma info is interesting too. I'm not
> > particularly surprised that it all has to be referenced to various and
> > sundry adjustments,profiling etc. Your reference to reflectance versus
> > luminance is what throws me. I suppose it's all relative since one can
> > put as bright a light as desired on a finished print and thereby match
> > the upper end of the scale with whichever screen is used. There are
> > many ways to skin the cat.
> > Best.
> > 
> > Duane
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks"
> > <fotografx@m...> wrote:
> >> > Duane,
> >> > 
> >> > A typical LCD has a maximum luminance these days of around 250
> > cd/m2, but
> >> > usually adjusted for ideal photographic image display LCD¹s are
> > choked down
> >> > to between 150 and 180 cd/m2, with a black point between 0.05
and 0.09.
> >> > CRT¹s after calibration and profiling will have a luminance range
> > from 0.07
> >> > to 0.90.  A fine print¹s density range is much closer, ideally
> > slightly more
> >> > measured with a densitometer than the range of a CRT, but very
much less
> >> > than the range of an LCD. However, on a perceptual basis because a
> > print is
> >> > viewed by usually less than ideal illumination (diffuse) the
> > perceived tonal
> >> > range is even closer to that of a CRT because the CRT display is
> > projected
> >> > rather than reflected light (unless contaminated by high levels of
> > ambient
> >> > illumination).
> >> > 
> >> > Additionally the standard 2.2 gamma setting for displays
produces a very
> >> > different midpoint gray value between a CRT, which closely
matches a
> > print
> >> > midpoint gray, compared to an LCD which with its longer luminance
> > range has
> >> > a much brighter midpoint gray. So far as I know Barco is the
only LCD
> >> > offered which has a gamma correction function that adjust for this
> > midpoint
> >> > gray discrepancy.
> >> > 
> >> > Regards, David B. Brooks
> >> > Shutterbug Magazine
> >> > E-mail: fotografx@m...
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > On 10/15/04 11:34 AM, "dlruckus" <dlruckus@y...> wrote:
> >> > 
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > David,
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > One would think that the flat panel LCD screen would be just the
> >>> > > opposite and be closer to paper than the CRT. That has been my
> >>> > > experience to date but perhaps I'm missing the most recent
advances in
> >>> > > that field.
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > Best.
> >>> > > Duane
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David
B. Brooks"
> >>> > > <fotografx@m...> wrote:
> >>>>> > >> > 
> >>>>> > >> > Bernie,
> >>>>> > >> > 
> >>>>> > >> > May I suggest that ³color management² and monitor
calibration and
> >>> > > profiling
> >>>>> > >> > could at least reduce the discrepancy between what you see
> > on-screen and
> >>>>> > >> > what you obtain in a print even though you are working with
> >>> > > grayscale and
> >>>>> > >> > not color.  I have jumped in here in part because I was
just
> > delivered
> >>>>> > >> > ColorVision¹s new Spyder2Pro colorimeter and software,
and the
> > resulting
> >>>>> > >> > calibration and profiling I am now obtaining is amazingly
> >>> > > well-matched and
> >>>>> > >> > the screen gray is at a neutral balance I¹ve not seen
before. And
> >>> > > may I also
> >>>>> > >> > suggest that with an LCD flat panel, its grater
brightness range
> >>> > > compared to
> >>>>> > >> > a CRT, makes it that much more difficult to obtain
screen matching
> >>> > > in prints
> >>>>> > >> > as there is an inherent gamma discrepancy. CRT¹s are
much closer in
> >>>>> > >> > brightness range and apparent gamma effect to a print
density
> > range.
> >>>>> > >> > 
> >>>>> > >> > Regards, David B. Brooks
> >>>>> > >> > Shutterbug Magazine
> >>>>> > >> > E-mail: fotografx@m...
> >>>>> > >> > 
> >>>>> > >> > 
> >>>>> > >> > 
> >>>>> > >> > 
> >>>>> > >> > On 10/15/04 4:17 AM, "Bernie Ess" <albatros-@...>
wrote:
> >>>>> > >> > 
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > 
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > When I started b&w printing on an Epson, I thought
one of the
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > advantages over the darkroom was that once its
well set up,
> > there
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > would be no trying and experimenting and that I
would have
> 100%
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > predictable results.
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > 
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > Now, a few hundreds or probably thousands of
prints later I
> > find that
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > this is
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > not exactly the case. On my 2100/UT7 workflow I
find the
> > following
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > issues:
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > 
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > 1. My output from the file + Roark curves is
roughly, but
> never
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > exactly what I see on my monitor. When I look at the
> > grayscale on my
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > flat panel the 100% to 0%
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > steps are quite well separated, but in the
uncorrected print
> > the deep
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > shadows (around 95%
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > black) are not well resolved, 95% comes out totally
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > black: So I had to make a curve that boosts the
deep shadows.
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > 
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > 2. I often find myself having to do several prints
of the
> > same photo,
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > because the general "look" of the print is not
like on the
> > screen, see
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > also my other message about the foliage and trees.
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > 
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > 3. The most mysterious thing is that my output
seems to vary
> > from time
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > to time. Sometimes I find the prints too dark
compared to
> > the screen,
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > sometimes they are slightly too light.
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > 
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > Finally its not that different from the darkroom,
I would say
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > gradually more predictable (maybe even by a large
margin,
> > but that is
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > probably because my traditional darkroom skills
are so poor).
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > 
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > So, do you have a 100% WYSIWYG workflow?
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > 
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > Thanks for your input,
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > 
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > Bernhard
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > 
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > 
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > 
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > 
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > 
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the
Files, and other
> >>> > > resources as
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > they are often being updated.
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > 
> >>>>>>> > >>> > >
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >>>>>>> > >>> > > 
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> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
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OF YOUR
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tyler,

Thanks for filling me in on StudioPrint RIP. I had sent e-mail to Robert
Eversole asking for documentation, but never obtained a response. I
appreciate your perspectives.

I keep pretty close tabs on what is happening in color management and I
don¹t think the companies are being obstructionist at all, they just have
their plates full to meet the demand for color solutions and try to get a
leg up on the competition.

Unfortunately I do not see the B&W RIP solutions as being particularly
viable for the prosumer market, at least as they are presently configured.
Nor do I see  what a RIP supports as a viable solution to extending CM
capabilities to cover B&W printing. That¹s not because I don¹t believe what
you say about how it can be done. It has more to do with inherent
limitations which inhibit growth to a critical mass of consumers that would
allow a price structure that won¹t inhibit sales growth.

I also have a bit of personal inhibition, considering StudioPrint only
supports Windoze. I was exclusively Windows for almost 10 years myself, even
was founding editor of PC Graphics & Video magazine which was produced on
Windows in a publishing house with 13 other magazines all produced on Macs!
After Redmond released Windows 2000 without the planned ICM 3.0 upgrade I
soon became so frustrated I bought my first Mac.  My shop now has just one
lone, seldom used IBM graphics system and five Macs.

Regards, David B. Brooks
Shutterbug Magazine
E-mail: fotografx@mindspring.com






On 10/15/04 11:02 PM, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@...> wrote:

> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks"
> <fotografx@m...> wrote:
>> > Steve M.,
>> > 
>> > Not according to the documentation that is published in the Ergosoft web
>> > site.  They state specifically that it is not ICC compliant. As far
> as I can
>> > establish all of the available, commercial RIPS for black and white
> printing
>> > are intentionally proprietary, except of course for the Linux GIMP based
>> > solution. From my perspective it is a technical solution dictated by a
>> > business model. That model essentially assumes a delimited market
> potential,
>> > in part reflected by the printers supported, and which offers
> limited user
>> > control or independence. It¹s the Polaroid philosophy now perpetuated as
>> > much as they can by Epson.
> 
> This requires some clarification, which might effect some of your
> views. What StudioPrint does for quads is really just an extremely
> well executed expansion of features expected in any good RIP. All
> these drivers, even the OEM ones, have the ability to partition. They
> do it from light cyan to cyan, light magenta to magenta, and with the
> UC printers light K to K as well. The good RIPs offer more user
> control, not less, by giving the user options in controling those
> partitions and other controls as well. All good RIPs offer the user
> the ability to linearize each channel, including those made up of a
> light and dark component. This is simply density tuning of the driver
> per channel, not in the icc data path, also a user control not part of
> OEM drivers. ICC profiling is done AFTER the RIP is tuned in this
> manner for the particular printer, inkset, and paper being used.
> All StudioPrint did was add a user selectable monochrome mode, and add
> two more (for now) partitions, a very light black and a very very
> light black. And of course like any good RIP, this channel is also
> hardware linearizable. This has little to do with any color management
> yet. It can be compared to the K only mode in the Epson driver, but
> with that K channel partitionable into multiple inks. As you know,
> when you select K only in the Epson driver, color management in the
> driver is disabled, only gamma adjustments are offered. This makes
> sense as the entire data path is single channel.
> So actually, all that has been done is an expansion of features
> already expected in good RIPs, perhaps what is proprietory is how well
> it has been implemented.
> In fact, the whole system is so user adjustable, it can be made to
> work with practically any inkset on any supported printer. You could
> even, in CMYK mode, used a 4 part quad inkset for K, and still have C,
> M, and Y, inks for toning in a 7 ink printer, or the same with a 3
> part K in a 6 ink printer. All kinds of things are possible, and all
> icc compatable in multichannel modes. It couldn't be more open.
> These are not confinements dictated by a business model, we expect
> these features from all good RIPs. The one that is a bit of a black
> box with little user control, and a lot of secret "magic", is
> ImagePrint, but it's users are quite happy and not complaining, and
> even it is fully icc compliant.
> 
>> > I am not being critical in terms of what it does, or for that matter
> what
>> > several other competitors also do. What I am suggesting is that it
> does not
>> > parallel for instance what color management companies do like Monaco,
>> > Gretag-Macbeth or ColorVision, which is base their solutions on a
> standard
>> > which interfaces seamlessly with  OS based CMS¹s¹ supporting full user
>> > independence after purchasing the software/hardware.
> 
> Actually David, these companies are what are standing in our way of
> placing color management in our single channel monochromatic data
> path. They offer no way of building single channel luminosity only
> profiling. Single channel icc compliant profiles are possible, but not
> yet a feature of these apps. I have one obscure app that will make
> them, but the printed percentage curves have to be entered by hand,
> not measured in. It will also make what it calls a rich black profile
> from measured color profiles, paper white, K point, the whole deal,
> but this is not what we need.
> As soon as one of these profiling apps allows us to build single
> channel icc profiles made with our measurement devices, we can profile
> any grayscale output device/driver/inkset/paper/etc., and if outputing
> from photoshop, select it as our printer profile and be on our way. If
> printing to a RIP, not out of an app, we'd simply have to convert and
> save before printing, if the RIP or driver is in a currentaly non-icc
> compliant single channel mode, as most of these special monochrome
> drivers are, or SP in quad mode.
> I hope all that makes sense, and if I have misunderstood and gone off
> on a tangent, please accept my apology in advance.
> Tyler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership
> without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the
> membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks"
<fotografx@m...> wrote:
> Tyler,
> 
> Thanks for filling me in on StudioPrint RIP. I had sent e-mail to Robert
> Eversole asking for documentation, but never obtained a response. I
> appreciate your perspectives.
> 
> I keep pretty close tabs on what is happening in color management and I
> don¹t think the companies are being obstructionist at all, they just
have
> their plates full to meet the demand for color solutions and try to
get a
> leg up on the competition.

Yes, I didn't mean to imply there was any agenda.

> Unfortunately I do not see the B&W RIP solutions as being particularly
> viable for the prosumer market...

I realize that it is not a solution geared toward that market. Of
course I am printing for others, attempting to make sense of the cost,
as well as using it for my own work. There are artists like Steve
though, who are successful enough with their work to justify the cost.
In his position he needs something very reliable and tinker free, and
doesn't waste materials, so you can see the application for artists
like him.

> I also have a bit of personal inhibition, considering StudioPrint only
> supports Windoze...

Believe me, I'm with you on that one. I've been on Macs from the
beginning, this is the 1st PC I've owned, all it does is drive the
printer. I've been working with quads for a long time, when this
product came out and we wanted to gear up, it was the only tool that
had the capability to do everything I had always wanted to do, so the
PC just came along for the ride. Obviously it's not for the masses,
and I'm not here singing it's praises or attempting to talk anyone
into it...
...and Robert should know better <G>.
Tyler

Steve,

I must agree emphatically with your assumption ³this is not an easy exercise
(otherwise I am sure it would be much more
prevalent today) and will likely take some time.² In fact I have had some
conversations with some people deeply involved in color management solutions
on the subject, and it has become obvious it will require the combined
effort of a top-flight color scientist and graphics software programmer to
develop an effective user friendly set of calibration and profiling tools.
What it will take is the recognition the potential is a lot bigger than the
minor niche market it is today. I have no doubts about this potential
sitting in the cat-bird¹s seat I have relegated myself to occupy.

The concept and function of Œsoft proofing¹ was to be able to emulate what a
publication document would look like printed on an offset press before the
fact on a computer screen. It really would have no purpose if a black and
white digital file could be managed  for direct output in the same way color
is managed. You would with a fully calibrated and profiled system
automatically achieve screen to print matching through a Photoshop workflow.

The interesting thing I have just recently experienced with a converted to
B&W 2000P using curves supplied by Paul Roark, that if I open two copies of
a grayscale image on screen in Photoshop, apply the PR curve to one and
print it, there is an excellent print match with the unaltered copy of the
image on screen. Sometimes the K.I.S.S. solution has its advantages.

Regards, David B. Brooks
Shutterbug Magazine
E-mail: fotografx@...




On 10/16/04 4:16 AM, "Steve Kale" <stevekale@...> wrote:

> I am sure that the next stage of B&W printing will be to allow a colour
> managed workflow that includes accurate control over the inks but I suspect
> this is not an easy exercise (otherwise I am sure it would be much more
> prevalent today) and will likely take some time.  The solutions that exist
> along these lines today are expensive and inflexible (they don't transport
> to new inks for example).  I have not used Paul's workflow but I understand
> it involves the application of curves to an RGB file to alter the colour
> composition of the file in order to manipulate the inks via a colour driver.
> Hardly a what you see is what you get workflow.  My point was that there
> exists today an easy way to get quite a good softproof from any B&W
> workflow.  It is available to anyone with an Eye-One Photo.  I have found
> that this has taken a lot of the trial and error out of my B&W workflow.  I
> can simply work on an image and then soft proof for the paper I intend to
> use and then apply an adjustment curve so that it then matches my original
> file.  Easy. No more too light/too dark vs screen. Now obviously if my
> display were not correctly calibrated and I have not built soft proof files
> (with Carl's workflow) for my B&W printer output then I would again be
> shooting in the dark.
> 
> 
>> > From: "David B. Brooks" <fotografx@...>
>> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>> > Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 19:29:37 -0700
>> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>> > Cc: <stevekale@...>
>> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] How reliable/ precise is your b&w print workflow?
>> > 
>> > 
>> > Steve,
>> > 
>> > I agree with your first sentence without reservation. However printing
>> black
>> > & white is not limited to a ³same as² workflow. There is no reason a user
>> > cannot convert grayscale to RGB and thereby make the workflow process
>> > amenable to the same controls as color. Several B&W (black ink) options
>> > employ some aspect of this strategy. For instance the MIS/Paul Roark option
>> > is a simple one which, although it requires using a ³same as² CMS profile
>> > setting in Photoshop,  also involves a print driver setting of ³no color
>> > adjustment² .  This allows the use of RGB curve files applied to the open
>> > image which in a broad sense functions in lieu of a profile selection in
>> > PrintSpace, providing data going to the printer altered to linearize the
>> > application of CcMmY ink position output.
>> > 
>> > Ideally it is technically and theoretically possible to fully utilize color
>> > management and profiles to control B&W printing with black inks. What is
>> > missing for users are two software components. The first is a way to drive
>> > the printer to reproduce a standard grayscale image that would output a
>> > print with a set of recordings resulting from that graysscale reflecting >>
the
>> > ink application performance for each printer ink channel.  Then the second
>> > step would be to ³read² the densities from the test chart print. This can
>> be
>> > accomplished with either a flatbed scanner which has the support to output
>> > raw data, or with a photospectrometer. The key piece of need software would
>> > allow inputting the density data read from the chart to be used to write a
>> > profile applying preset algorithms to match ideal aim-points to control the
>> > ink application for each ink color channel.
>> > 
>> > Obviously a user B&W calibration and profiling capability will require a
>> > significant investment in R&D, as well as programming and marketing to
>> bring
>> > these utilities to market. That will happen when the potential market is
>> > adequately recognized in size potential by those in the industry who have
>> > the capability to take the risks to undertake this challenge. From my
>> > perspective there are many times more photographers already with a foot in
>> > digital who have an interest in a B&W capability (if it is reasonably easy
>> > and affordable), than there are among those already involved and using some
>> > kind of currently available B&W printing option.
>> > 
>> > Regards, David B. Brooks
>> > Shutterbug Magazine
>> > E-mail: fotografx@...
>> > 
>> >   
>> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Duane,

I began my professional photo career in 1952 so I am probably a bit more the
cantankerous old f..., as well as having an inclination to be a gadfly.

>>It still seems to me that either device requires reduction in its overall
density range to try to match a print on paper. At least to
> me the visual appearance of an image on screen-no matter how carefully
> calibrated- seems more luminous than the resultant print.<<

Even if the print density range and the luminance range of a display is the
same, and with a CRT it is very close, the perceptual effect of light
reflected from a print image compared to an image transmitted by light will
never seem perceptually equivalent. This is a topic that was researched and
discussed at some length in Todd Zakia¹s book on Vision and Perception For
Photographers published by RIT Press. It was also analyzed and discussed in
depth from another perspective by Marshall McLuhan in Understanding Media.

Interestingly, about a dozen years ago there were high quality monochrome
portrait CRT monitors made primarily for the DTP market which had a white
background with a black image (text) which displayed B&W photographs very
Œrealistically². It is maybe too bad these monitors are no longer made<S>.

The real beauty with digital is that you can fine-tune the image file to a
high degree of precision and restructure its characteristic curve ideally,
as well as do all of the image manipulation you would do with burning and
dodging, before ever clicking the Print button. Then it should be relatively
easy to obtain in ink and paper exactly what you expect in your mind¹s eye.
Other than the limitation imposed by color inks, I think maybe we might be
making the solution harder to attain than it needs to be. I know Paul Roark
sees it somewhat from that perspective. However, there is a lot of trial and
error experience and the craft skill that derives from that in what he does.

Regards, David B. Brooks
Shutterbug Magazine
E-mail: fotografx@...




On 10/16/04 7:01 PM, "dlruckus" <dlruckus@...> wrote:

> 
> David,
> 
> Of course you are correct in that the density range of a paper print
> is considerably less than the crt/lcd image can be. That's part of the
> purpose of doing the profiling to begin with. There is no doubt either
> that you cannot get any darker on a crt/lcd than the absence of light
> transmitted, so the appearance depends, as you said, on ambient light
> conditions and the physical surface characteristics of the device. I
> am happy to know that LCDs are advancing so greatly and presumably
> will be easily available soon with the gamma controls you referred to.
> It still seems to me that either device requires reduction in its
> overall  density range to try to match a print on paper. At least to
> me the visual appearance of an image on screen-no matter how carefully
> calibrated- seems more luminous than the resultant print. Thats not to
> say that the difference is huge and unmanageable.
> I see from your other posts on advancements/hopes for more readily
> useful solutions applicable to a larger audience that you feel it is
> at least potentialy possible to get wysiwyg completely. One hopes for
> that also. In the meantime super prints can be made despite all the
> variables. It is still in my mind not much different than attaining
> order and reproducible output(fine prints not consumer) ever was in
> the wet darkroom. There are in fact orders of magnitude more options
> and choices to be made, long learning curves, and much experimentation
> to do, as witness the folks in this group.
> I come from a long ago background in the photo arts and do not need to
> make a living at this so am somewhat dated. The tools I require must
> be fairly simple and low cost to match a retired persons income. That
> is why I commented on skinning the cat in many ways. I believe the
> "workflow" is paramount and there are various possible means to an
> end. They are not always universal or even broadly desirable but
> thankfully can be workable.
> I didn't mean to be disputive or to question your expertise. Just an
> old xxxx looking for more enlightment.
> Best.
> Duane
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks"
> <fotografx@m...> wrote:
>> > Duane,
>> > 
>> > I believe you would find that it is not all relative. No matter how much
>> > light you apply to illuminating a print, the density range of the print
>> > remains the same. However, with an LCD the black luminance remains
> little
>> > changed when you up the amount of light pushed through the screen
> with the
>> > backlight, so the maximum luminance climbs producing a much greater
>> > luminance range. In fact some LCD¹s now being sold have a contrast
> ratio of
>> > 600:1. There is no possible way to obtain effective print matching
> with that
>> > kind of display performance. But it does allow a stockbroker to
> easily read
>> > charts and graphs even on a sunny day if he is in a corner office.
>> > 
>> > Regards, David B. Brooks
>> > Shutterbug Magazine
>> > E-mail: fotografx@m...
>> > 
>> >  
>> > 
>> > 
>> > On 10/16/04 12:17 PM, "dlruckus" <dlruckus@y...> wrote:
>> > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > David,
>>> > > 
>>> > > Thanks for the updating. I am aware of the low end deficiencys
>>> > > (blacks) of CRTs but I was unaware of advances in LCDs in respect to
>>> > > max illumination capabilities. That they now excede the brightest CRTs
>>> > > is interesting. The gamma info is interesting too. I'm not
>>> > > particularly surprised that it all has to be referenced to various and
>>> > > sundry adjustments,profiling etc. Your reference to reflectance versus
>>> > > luminance is what throws me. I suppose it's all relative since one can
>>> > > put as bright a light as desired on a finished print and thereby match
>>> > > the upper end of the scale with whichever screen is used. There are
>>> > > many ways to skin the cat.
>>> > > Best.
>>> > > 
>>> > > Duane
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > -- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks"
>>> > > <fotografx@m...> wrote:
>>>>> > >> > Duane,
>>>>> > >> > 
>>>>> > >> > A typical LCD has a maximum luminance these days of around 250
>>> > > cd/m2, but
>>>>> > >> > usually adjusted for ideal photographic image display LCD¹s are
>>> > > choked down
>>>>> > >> > to between 150 and 180 cd/m2, with a black point between 0.05
> and 0.09.
>>>>> > >> > CRT¹s after calibration and profiling will have a luminance range
>>> > > from 0.07
>>>>> > >> > to 0.90.  A fine print¹s density range is much closer, ideally
>>> > > slightly more
>>>>> > >> > measured with a densitometer than the range of a CRT, but very
> much less
>>>>> > >> > than the range of an LCD. However, on a perceptual basis because a
>>> > > print is
>>>>> > >> > viewed by usually less than ideal illumination (diffuse) the
>>> > > perceived tonal
>>>>> > >> > range is even closer to that of a CRT because the CRT display is
>>> > > projected
>>>>> > >> > rather than reflected light (unless contaminated by high levels of
>>> > > ambient
>>>>> > >> > illumination).
>>>>> > >> > 
>>>>> > >> > Additionally the standard 2.2 gamma setting for displays
> produces a very
>>>>> > >> > different midpoint gray value between a CRT, which closely
> matches a
>>> > > print
>>>>> > >> > midpoint gray, compared to an LCD which with its longer luminance
>>> > > range has
>>>>> > >> > a much brighter midpoint gray. So far as I know Barco is the
> only LCD
>>>>> > >> > offered which has a gamma correction function that adjust for this
>>> > > midpoint
>>>>> > >> > gray discrepancy.
>>>>> > >> > 
>>>>> > >> > Regards, David B. Brooks
>>>>> > >> > Shutterbug Magazine
>>>>> > >> > E-mail: fotografx@m...
>>>>> > >> > 
>>>>> > >> > 
>>>>> > >> > 
>>>>> > >> > 
>>>>> > >> > On 10/15/04 11:34 AM, "dlruckus" <dlruckus@y...> wrote:
>>>>> > >> > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > David,
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > One would think that the flat panel LCD screen would be just
the
>>>>>>> > >>> > > opposite and be closer to paper than the CRT. That has been my
>>>>>>> > >>> > > experience to date but perhaps I'm missing the most recent
> advances in
>>>>>>> > >>> > > that field.
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > Best.
>>>>>>> > >>> > > Duane
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David
> B. Brooks"
>>>>>>> > >>> > > <fotografx@m...> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > Bernie,
>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > May I suggest that ³color management² and monitor
> calibration and
>>>>>>> > >>> > > profiling
>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > could at least reduce the discrepancy between what
you see
>>> > > on-screen and
>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > what you obtain in a print even though you are
working with
>>>>>>> > >>> > > grayscale and
>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > not color.  I have jumped in here in part because I
was
> just
>>> > > delivered
>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > ColorVision¹s new Spyder2Pro colorimeter and
software,
> and the
>>> > > resulting
>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > calibration and profiling I am now obtaining is
amazingly
>>>>>>> > >>> > > well-matched and
>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > the screen gray is at a neutral balance I¹ve not seen
> before. And
>>>>>>> > >>> > > may I also
>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > suggest that with an LCD flat panel, its grater
> brightness range
>>>>>>> > >>> > > compared to
>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > a CRT, makes it that much more difficult to obtain
> screen matching
>>>>>>> > >>> > > in prints
>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > as there is an inherent gamma discrepancy. CRT¹s are
> much closer in
>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > brightness range and apparent gamma effect to a print
> density
>>> > > range.
>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > Regards, David B. Brooks
>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > Shutterbug Magazine
>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > E-mail: fotografx@m...
>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > On 10/15/04 4:17 AM, "Bernie Ess" <albatros-@...>
> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > When I started b&w printing on an Epson, I
thought
> one of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > advantages over the darkroom was that once
its
> well set up,
>>> > > there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > would be no trying and experimenting and
that I
> would have
>> > 100%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > predictable results.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Now, a few hundreds or probably thousands of
> prints later I
>>> > > find that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > this is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > not exactly the case. On my 2100/UT7
workflow I
> find the
>>> > > following
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > issues:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > 1. My output from the file + Roark curves is
> roughly, but
>> > never
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > exactly what I see on my monitor. When I
look at the
>>> > > grayscale on my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > flat panel the 100% to 0%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > steps are quite well separated, but in the
> uncorrected print
>>> > > the deep
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > shadows (around 95%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > black) are not well resolved, 95% comes out
totally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > black: So I had to make a curve that boosts
the
> deep shadows.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > 2. I often find myself having to do several
prints
> of the
>>> > > same photo,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > because the general "look" of the print is
not
> like on the
>>> > > screen, see
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > also my other message about the foliage and
trees.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > 3. The most mysterious thing is that my
output
> seems to vary
>>> > > from time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > to time. Sometimes I find the prints too
dark
> compared to
>>> > > the screen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > sometimes they are slightly too light.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Finally its not that different from the
darkroom,
> I would say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > gradually more predictable (maybe even by a
large
> margin,
>>> > > but that is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > probably because my traditional darkroom
skills
> are so poor).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > So, do you have a 100% WYSIWYG workflow?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Thanks for your input,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Bernhard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the
> Files, and other
>>>>>>> > >>> > > resources as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > they are often being updated.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a
daily
> digest, or
>> > you
>>>>>>> > >>> > > wish to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership
> preferences by
>> > visiting
>>>>>>> > >>> > > this same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > page.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess
portions of
> earlier
>>> > > messages
>>>>>>> > >>> > > to keep
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > them short.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No
> personal attacks
>> > or
>>>>>>> > >>> > > flames.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users
may be
> removed
>>> > > from the
>>>>>>> > >>> > > membership
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > without notice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > - Keep your posts and threads related to the
group
> topic of
>>>>>>> > >>> > > digital B&W
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > printing. Users who persistently make
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IF THE
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
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> INABILITY TO
>>> > > USE THE
>>>>>>> > >>> > > DIGITAL BW,
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> OR >>>>>>>
>> > ALTERATION
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>>>>>>> > >>> > > PARTY ON THE
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ANY
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ALTERATION
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THIRD
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>>>>> > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
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> "MODERATORS" OF
>>> > > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
>>> > > DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE
> DIGITAL BW,
>>> > > THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION
> OF YOUR
>>> > > TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD
> PARTY ON THE
>>> > > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER
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>> > 
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the
> membership.
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> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
> “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR
> TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
> 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

David B. Brooks wrote:

> Even if the print density range and the luminance range of a display is the
> same, and with a CRT it is very close, the perceptual effect of light
> reflected from a print image compared to an image transmitted by light will
> never seem perceptually equivalent. 

With the flexible, reflective displays like "electronic paper" 
now in development we will get closer to that final look of the 
print. On the other hand it may even replace the print on the 
wall. Ironically there's often a special inkjet printer involved 
in the production of the displays.

http://www.eink.com/news/releases/pr70.html

http://www.i4u.com/article1070.html

A friend of my son told me yesterday that he was working on a 
related project with organic displays at Philips Nat Lab, that's 
what reminded me of the possibilities.

Ernst

David B. Brooks wrote:

> Tyler,
> 
> Thanks for filling me in on StudioPrint RIP. I had sent e-mail to Robert
> Eversole asking for documentation, but never obtained a response. I
> appreciate your perspectives.
> 
> I keep pretty close tabs on what is happening in color management and I
> don\ufffdt think the companies are being obstructionist at all, they just have
> their plates full to meet the demand for color solutions and try to get a
> leg up on the competition.
> 
> Unfortunately I do not see the B&W RIP solutions as being particularly
> viable for the prosumer market, at least as they are presently configured.
> Nor do I see  what a RIP supports as a viable solution to extending CM
> capabilities to cover B&W printing. That\ufffds not because I don\ufffdt believe what
> you say about how it can be done. It has more to do with inherent
> limitations which inhibit growth to a critical mass of consumers that would
> allow a price structure that won\ufffdt inhibit sales growth.
> 
> I also have a bit of personal inhibition, considering StudioPrint only
> supports Windoze. I was exclusively Windows for almost 10 years myself, even
> was founding editor of PC Graphics & Video magazine which was produced on
> Windows in a publishing house with 13 other magazines all produced on Macs!
> After Redmond released Windows 2000 without the planned ICM 3.0 upgrade I
> soon became so frustrated I bought my first Mac.  My shop now has just one
> lone, seldom used IBM graphics system and five Macs.


It is unlikely that Epson will bring a dedicated B&W solution. On 
the other hand Epson did improve the B&W quality of the printers 
over the last 3-4 years both in consumer and pro models. The 
smaller droplet sizes, the extra grey ink, more nozzles for 
better weaving, the better longevity of the prints which is even 
more expressed in the B&W prints than in the color prints.

ICC solutions are available for more neutral B&W prints but the 
RGB profiling of the Epson driver limits the use of those 
solutions. For consistency it is nice to have the linearising of 
ink channels possible in most RIPs, the ink limitation settings 
per channel gives another advantage not found in the Epson driver 
yet.  That could change if someone at Epson would add some extra 
paper settings in the printer menus that are not there to 
increase the gamut as usual but to get consistency in B&W 
printing with the color inkset. A longer black generation, ink 
limitation that increases Dmax for black but limits the yellow 
for less metamerism, grey ink addition to black for boost and 
evenness.  On that a generic RGB B&W profile could be added that 
the prosumer can replace with a custom profile. I don't think 
that an addition like that would make costs much higher on a 
prosumer color inkjet printer. (5 extra paper settings in the 
driver are available for the 10000CF printer that are not made 
for specific papers but were made in view of unspecified papers 
and textiles that would appear on the market one day). There's a 
much larger market for B&W + Color inkjet printers than for B&W 
printers only. R800 technique with the 1.5 droplet but 1 extra 
grey ink will be good enough in hardware for the best B&W prints. 
Three main printer menu choices: color, black and white, black 
only. Not a B&W RIP but like the Epson color driver it could be 
as functional as a RIP in most cases.

QTR on the Mac isn't an ICC solution but its basics are almost 
exactly the same as the B&W ICC solutions on more expensive RIPs. 
I see no reason why one should implement ICC profiles in that 
case as the overhead of colour engine links doesn't improve the 
B&W printing itself and makes custom linearising + profiling more 
complicated and expensive and generic profiles not better.  ICC 
profiling could be used with P2P in Photoshop on the images 
before QTR takes it over but I have tried similar approaches with 
a RIP and do not see the advantage.

RIP solutions for Macs have been limited till OSX appeared, since 
then it has changed somewhat. PCs had a lousy color engine 
implementation not so long ago, that was possibly one of the 
reasons that RIPs with a better color management were made for 
that platform, there were other reasons too. Your inhibition with 
PCs may have been triggered by bad experience in the past, it now 
deprives you of some nice print solutions like Qimage. I do not 
share your view on Vuescan either.  As cheap as Qimage, both 
programs are very capable pieces of software that may differ in 
concept from the expensive ones but on many aspects are equal or 
even better. This based on experience with both, some experience 
with Silverfast and having the Wasatch SoftRip. My requests for 
better B&W solutions for that RIP were ignored by Wasatch Inc, it 
looks like they prefer to make yet another screen pattern for 
silkscreen films, wonder which of the two will be a growing 
market :-)

Ernst

I've been reading this thread without understanding some of ithe technical
stuff but the basic gist seems to be complaints about the difficulty in
getting a first print to match a monitor, thus sometimes requiring that a
second print be made.

I'm perhaps coming from a different perspective than some participants
because I don't photograph or print for a living but the notion that this is
a problem surprises me. It wasn't unusual at all for me to go through ten or
fifteen iterations in a darkroom to get my final print. For my first try at
printing a negative in my darkroom my usual output for a print I planned to
exhibit was roughly one final print per three to four hour darkroom session,
sometimes  longer. And most of that time was spent doing drudge work like
setting up the chemicals, jiggling trays, moving dodging and burning tools
around, washing, toning, drying, cleaning up, etc. Of the three or four
hours, maybe a half hour at the most was spent doing anything creative, the
rest of the time was manual labor any idiot could have done if properly
instructed.

So I'm supposed to be concerned that after maybe a half hour to an hour of
creative work on the computer to get the image to look right on the monitor,
I sometimes have to push the print button twice to get a final digital
print?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David B. Brooks" <fotografx@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: <dlruckus@...>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 12:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] How reliable/ precise is your b&w print workflow?



Duane,

I began my professional photo career in 1952 so I am probably a bit more the
cantankerous old f..., as well as having an inclination to be a gadfly.

>>It still seems to me that either device requires reduction in its overall
density range to try to match a print on paper. At least to
> me the visual appearance of an image on screen-no matter how carefully
> calibrated- seems more luminous than the resultant print.<<

Even if the print density range and the luminance range of a display is the
same, and with a CRT it is very close, the perceptual effect of light
reflected from a print image compared to an image transmitted by light will
never seem perceptually equivalent. This is a topic that was researched and
discussed at some length in Todd Zakia\ufffds book on Vision and Perception For
Photographers published by RIT Press. It was also analyzed and discussed in
depth from another perspective by Marshall McLuhan in Understanding Media.

Interestingly, about a dozen years ago there were high quality monochrome
portrait CRT monitors made primarily for the DTP market which had a white
background with a black image (text) which displayed B&W photographs very
Orealistically\ufffd. It is maybe too bad these monitors are no longer made<S>.

The real beauty with digital is that you can fine-tune the image file to a
high degree of precision and restructure its characteristic curve ideally,
as well as do all of the image manipulation you would do with burning and
dodging, before ever clicking the Print button. Then it should be relatively
easy to obtain in ink and paper exactly what you expect in your mind\ufffds eye.
Other than the limitation imposed by color inks, I think maybe we might be
making the solution harder to attain than it needs to be. I know Paul Roark
sees it somewhat from that perspective. However, there is a lot of trial and
error experience and the craft skill that derives from that in what he does.

Regards, David B. Brooks
Shutterbug Magazine
E-mail: fotografx@...

(remainder of thread deleted in the interest of brevity)

I think you would be rather surprised as to the number of prosumers or even
consumers who monitor this list and use a well-priced RIP such as QTR.  The
expansion of QTR to the Windows platform will likely see this usage expand
rapidly. It would be very interesting indeed for the Moderators to conduct
an online survey of the Group's participants to better understand it's
demographics.

PS:  Please trim your posts

> From: "David B. Brooks" <fotografx@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 20:01:03 -0700
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] StudioPrint, mono color management etc. was How
> reliable
> 
> 
> Tyler,
> 
> Thanks for filling me in on StudioPrint RIP. I had sent e-mail to Robert
> Eversole asking for documentation, but never obtained a response. I
> appreciate your perspectives.
> 
> I keep pretty close tabs on what is happening in color management and I
> don¹t think the companies are being obstructionist at all, they just have
> their plates full to meet the demand for color solutions and try to get a
> leg up on the competition.
> 
> Unfortunately I do not see the B&W RIP solutions as being particularly
> viable for the prosumer market, at least as they are presently configured.
> Nor do I see  what a RIP supports as a viable solution to extending CM
> capabilities to cover B&W printing. That¹s not because I don¹t believe what
> you say about how it can be done. It has more to do with inherent
> limitations which inhibit growth to a critical mass of consumers that would
> allow a price structure that won¹t inhibit sales growth.
> 
> I also have a bit of personal inhibition, considering StudioPrint only
> supports Windoze. I was exclusively Windows for almost 10 years myself, even
> was founding editor of PC Graphics & Video magazine which was produced on
> Windows in a publishing house with 13 other magazines all produced on Macs!
> After Redmond released Windows 2000 without the planned ICM 3.0 upgrade I
> soon became so frustrated I bought my first Mac.  My shop now has just one
> lone, seldom used IBM graphics system and five Macs.
> 
> Regards, David B. Brooks
> Shutterbug Magazine
> E-mail: fotografx@...
> 
> 
>

All I can say is that this list has constantly witnessed the frustration of
people using a B&W workflow which is not colour managed (because an
effective and colour managed workflow does not exist short of moving to a
VERY expensive RIP like Imageprint) and finding that their prints don't
match the image on the screen.  Well surprise surprise.  As you quite
rightly note a display is capable of producing a broader colour gamut than
today's inks on paper and some tonal compression must occur.  (And this
would be also be evident in a colour managed B&W workflow - if only because
ink and paper can't produce the dMax of the display.)  Until Carl (and
previously Tyler) came up with an easy method for soft-proofing, the answer
was trial and error. Now at least, for any selected curve/ink/paper/printer
combination one can get an accurate soft-proof.  It's not colur managed per
se but it achieves the same goal - readily and easily for anyone who has the
equipment to calibrate their monitor and printer.


> From: "David B. Brooks" <fotografx@mindspring.com>
> 
> The concept and function of Œsoft proofing¹ was to be able to emulate what a
> publication document would look like printed on an offset press before the
> fact on a computer screen. It really would have no purpose if a black and
> white digital file could be managed  for direct output in the same way color
> is managed. You would with a fully calibrated and profiled system
> automatically achieve screen to print matching through a Photoshop workflow.
> 

I don't believe this is true.  A soft proof would be required because the
(colour) gamut of the printer/ink combination is significantly less than
that of the display given today's inks and papers.  You would only get a
print matching your monitor if you had Proof Colours checked with the
correct ICC profile.  In colour prints this is less noticeable and we
typically have a better printer colour gamut in relation to the image at
hand. 

But it also leads to the discussion I began with Roy awhile back as to how
B&W "gamut compression" should be handled.  The classic complaint is that
(non soft-proofed) images print lighter than on screen.  A result of the
lower dMax of the ink/paper and a shift of the tonal composition of the
image by the RIP.  I am no expert in this area (and may be talking through a
hole in my head) but it seems to me that linearisation provides a distorted
smoothed compression into the tighter gamut (higher dMin, lower dMax) and
every pixel in an image gets shifted - except maybe the midpoint.  I often
wonder whether a clipping approach would be better (or some balance in
between).  I question whether raising the brightness of the image overall
(mid point may stay unchanged but the others are affected) to achieve "good
separation in the shadows" is the right approach (presumable the opposite is
occurring in the highlights). I find that when I soft proof an image for QTR
output I end up applying an S curve to try to get back my overall tonal
balance - accentuating the near blacks and near whites.  I may be wrong but
I suspect this is really undoing part of what was done at the linearisation
stage.

Regards

Steve

Put another way, colour management has developed sophisticated systems for
dealing with out-of-gamut colours.  ICC-based colour management engines know
the gamut limitations of the printer/paper combination and can deal with out
of gamut colours (eg a very dark black) according to the selected method.  I
am not even sure whether a B&W RIP such as QTR "knows" the gamut of the
selected printer/paper combination but this is measured and recorded in the
linearization process and entered into the curve descriptor file.  The
question then becomes how does the RIP map the image pixels to the output.
I really do think that this area requires some extra thought from people far
brighter than me - I am just an unemployed investment banker who used to
read his reports on an LCD screen in a sunny corner office ;-)

> From: Steve Kale <stevekale@...>

> 
> But it also leads to the discussion I began with Roy awhile back as to how
> B&W "gamut compression" should be handled.  The classic complaint is that
> (non soft-proofed) images print lighter than on screen.  A result of the
> lower dMax of the ink/paper and a shift of the tonal composition of the
> image by the RIP.  I am no expert in this area (and may be talking through a
> hole in my head) but it seems to me that linearisation provides a distorted
> smoothed compression into the tighter gamut (higher dMin, lower dMax) and
> every pixel in an image gets shifted - except maybe the midpoint.  I often
> wonder whether a clipping approach would be better (or some balance in
> between).  I question whether raising the brightness of the image overall
> (mid point may stay unchanged but the others are affected) to achieve "good
> separation in the shadows" is the right approach (presumable the opposite is
> occurring in the highlights). I find that when I soft proof an image for QTR
> output I end up applying an S curve to try to get back my overall tonal
> balance - accentuating the near blacks and near whites.  I may be wrong but
> I suspect this is really undoing part of what was done at the linearisation
> stage.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Tyler,

Do you think QTR is a reliable alternative now for what you do? In 
the area of clean output and hue tonable ability with the Piezzo inks?

John

Tyler,

Unfortunately if easier and less costly solutions for black and white
printing are found it may diadvantage people like yourself ho are now
printing for others, as some of those other will begin to do it for
themselves.

Regards, David B. Brooks
Shutterbug Magazine
E-mail: fotografx@mindspring.com




On 10/16/04 9:08 PM, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@...> wrote:

> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks"
> <fotografx@m...> wrote:
>> > Tyler,
>> > 
>> > Thanks for filling me in on StudioPrint RIP. I had sent e-mail to Robert
>> > Eversole asking for documentation, but never obtained a response. I
>> > appreciate your perspectives.
>> > 
>> > I keep pretty close tabs on what is happening in color management and I
>> > don¹t think the companies are being obstructionist at all, they just
> have
>> > their plates full to meet the demand for color solutions and try to
> get a
>> > leg up on the competition.
> 
> Yes, I didn't mean to imply there was any agenda.
> 
>> > Unfortunately I do not see the B&W RIP solutions as being particularly
>> > viable for the prosumer market...
> 
> I realize that it is not a solution geared toward that market. Of
> course I am printing for others, attempting to make sense of the cost,
> as well as using it for my own work. There are artists like Steve
> though, who are successful enough with their work to justify the cost.
> In his position he needs something very reliable and tinker free, and
> doesn't waste materials, so you can see the application for artists
> like him.
> 
>> > I also have a bit of personal inhibition, considering StudioPrint only
>> > supports Windoze...
> 
> Believe me, I'm with you on that one. I've been on Macs from the
> beginning, this is the 1st PC I've owned, all it does is drive the
> printer. I've been working with quads for a long time, when this
> product came out and we wanted to gear up, it was the only tool that
> had the capability to do everything I had always wanted to do, so the
> PC just came along for the ride. Obviously it's not for the masses,
> and I'm not here singing it's praises or attempting to talk anyone
> into it...
> ...and Robert should know better <G>.
> Tyler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ernst,

I just wonder how long this fledgling development will remain monochromatic.
The marketing establishment I am sure will demand color because they think
it has to be color to sell.

Interestingly the ³appearance² as described of the e-paper display I believe
is not that different than the DTP black on white CRT displays that were
available some years ago. But until the true potential of the B&W niche is
recognized by the mega-corporate entities in the business, I doubt we will
see any products that are truly ideal the B&W photography criteria.

Regards, David B. Brooks
Shutterbug Magazine
E-mail: fotografx@...




On 10/17/04 3:14 AM, "Ernst Dinkla" <E.Dinkla@...> wrote:

> David B. Brooks wrote:
> 
>> > Even if the print density range and the luminance range of a display is the
>> > same, and with a CRT it is very close, the perceptual effect of light
>> > reflected from a print image compared to an image transmitted by light will
>> > never seem perceptually equivalent.
> 
> With the flexible, reflective displays like "electronic paper"
> now in development we will get closer to that final look of the
> print. On the other hand it may even replace the print on the
> wall. Ironically there's often a special inkjet printer involved
> in the production of the displays.
> 
> http://www.eink.com/news/releases/pr70.html
> 
> http://www.i4u.com/article1070.html
> 
> A friend of my son told me yesterday that he was working on a
> related project with organic displays at Philips Nat Lab, that's
> what reminded me of the possibilities.
> 
> Ernst
> 
> 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "B. Campbell"
<bellis60@v...> wrote:
> I've been reading this thread without understanding some of ithe
technical
> So I'm supposed to be concerned that after maybe a half hour to an
>hour of creative work on the computer to get the image to look right
>on the monitor, I sometimes have to push the print button twice to
get a final digital print?

Well not quite I think . First if you just press the button twice you
will probably get the same result once again - so you have to tweak
curves. But, whereas in the darkroom the reasons for having to try
several times is very clear, I (as the initiator of this thread) dont
understand why in an all digital- workflow its not really
controllable. It has been at least a dozen times that I tweaked and
re- tweaked my correction curves in the last weeks, and I dont really
like when I dont understand why and how I have to change things. 

If you dont mind trying twice or 3 times before you get the result you
wish, thats fine, I 'd prefer not having to throw away half of my
prints (= sheets of photo paper).

greetings, Bernie

Ernst,

With the development effort that went into the Pro 4000 Epson put a lot of
effort toward refining gray balance functioning that would assure neutral
gray prints using the color Ultrachrome inks. I believe the feedback
response may be similar to my own in a sufficient degree they may  have to
seriously reconsider that gray balance is a less serious detriment than
metamerism. We¹ll see. I don¹t think Epson will leave any stone unturned. It
is just that their perspective on photography has been limited, which is
evident by the particular photographers who have been chosen by Epson to
provide advise and consultation.

I agree with you about the Epson R-800. However, from my tests I don¹t think
the Light Black ink is in play when Black only is selected in the driver to
print grayscale images. In fact the Light Black ink is a very warm black ink
if you paint some of the ink on a paper sample. But it is an interesting
possibility if a very fine droplet size and enough nozzles with variable
droplet technology were applied to making a B&W printer. The ³simple
elegance² of such a solution could be revolutionary ­ why not have just one
ink for black and white printing?????

I think if you look into the color management plans for ³longhorn² that have
been published on the Microsoft web site you might want to reconsider.
Redmond is up to their old tricks assuming they can dictate international
standards. 800 pound gorilla¹s don¹t do much but damage when let loose in a
china shop.

Regards, David B. Brooks
Shutterbug Magazine
E-mail: fotografx@...




On 10/17/04 4:43 AM, "Ernst Dinkla" <E.Dinkla@chello.nl> wrote:

> David B. Brooks wrote:
> 
>> > Tyler,
>> > 
>> > Thanks for filling me in on StudioPrint RIP. I had sent e-mail to Robert
>> > Eversole asking for documentation, but never obtained a response. I
>> > appreciate your perspectives.
>> > 
>> > I keep pretty close tabs on what is happening in color management and I
>> > don¹t think the companies are being obstructionist at all, they just have
>> > their plates full to meet the demand for color solutions and try to get a
>> > leg up on the competition.
>> > 
>> > Unfortunately I do not see the B&W RIP solutions as being particularly
>> > viable for the prosumer market, at least as they are presently configured.
>> > Nor do I see  what a RIP supports as a viable solution to extending CM
>> > capabilities to cover B&W printing. That¹s not because I don¹t believe what
>> > you say about how it can be done. It has more to do with inherent
>> > limitations which inhibit growth to a critical mass of consumers that would
>> > allow a price structure that won¹t inhibit sales growth.
>> > 
>> > I also have a bit of personal inhibition, considering StudioPrint only
>> > supports Windoze. I was exclusively Windows for almost 10 years myself,
>> even
>> > was founding editor of PC Graphics & Video magazine which was produced on
>> > Windows in a publishing house with 13 other magazines all produced on Macs!
>> > After Redmond released Windows 2000 without the planned ICM 3.0 upgrade I
>> > soon became so frustrated I bought my first Mac.  My shop now has just one
>> > lone, seldom used IBM graphics system and five Macs.
> 
> 
> It is unlikely that Epson will bring a dedicated B&W solution. On
> the other hand Epson did improve the B&W quality of the printers
> over the last 3-4 years both in consumer and pro models. The
> smaller droplet sizes, the extra grey ink, more nozzles for
> better weaving, the better longevity of the prints which is even
> more expressed in the B&W prints than in the color prints.
> 
> ICC solutions are available for more neutral B&W prints but the
> RGB profiling of the Epson driver limits the use of those
> solutions. For consistency it is nice to have the linearising of
> ink channels possible in most RIPs, the ink limitation settings
> per channel gives another advantage not found in the Epson driver
> yet.  That could change if someone at Epson would add some extra
> paper settings in the printer menus that are not there to
> increase the gamut as usual but to get consistency in B&W
> printing with the color inkset. A longer black generation, ink
> limitation that increases Dmax for black but limits the yellow
> for less metamerism, grey ink addition to black for boost and
> evenness.  On that a generic RGB B&W profile could be added that
> the prosumer can replace with a custom profile. I don't think
> that an addition like that would make costs much higher on a
> prosumer color inkjet printer. (5 extra paper settings in the
> driver are available for the 10000CF printer that are not made
> for specific papers but were made in view of unspecified papers
> and textiles that would appear on the market one day). There's a
> much larger market for B&W + Color inkjet printers than for B&W
> printers only. R800 technique with the 1.5 droplet but 1 extra
> grey ink will be good enough in hardware for the best B&W prints.
> Three main printer menu choices: color, black and white, black
> only. Not a B&W RIP but like the Epson color driver it could be
> as functional as a RIP in most cases.
> 
> QTR on the Mac isn't an ICC solution but its basics are almost
> exactly the same as the B&W ICC solutions on more expensive RIPs.
> I see no reason why one should implement ICC profiles in that
> case as the overhead of colour engine links doesn't improve the
> B&W printing itself and makes custom linearising + profiling more
> complicated and expensive and generic profiles not better.  ICC
> profiling could be used with P2P in Photoshop on the images
> before QTR takes it over but I have tried similar approaches with
> a RIP and do not see the advantage.
> 
> RIP solutions for Macs have been limited till OSX appeared, since
> then it has changed somewhat. PCs had a lousy color engine
> implementation not so long ago, that was possibly one of the
> reasons that RIPs with a better color management were made for
> that platform, there were other reasons too. Your inhibition with
> PCs may have been triggered by bad experience in the past, it now
> deprives you of some nice print solutions like Qimage. I do not
> share your view on Vuescan either.  As cheap as Qimage, both
> programs are very capable pieces of software that may differ in
> concept from the expensive ones but on many aspects are equal or
> even better. This based on experience with both, some experience
> with Silverfast and having the Wasatch SoftRip. My requests for
> better B&W solutions for that RIP were ignored by Wasatch Inc, it
> looks like they prefer to make yet another screen pattern for
> silkscreen films, wonder which of the two will be a growing
> market :-)
> 
> Ernst
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I believe the answer to your perspective, which is a quite reasonable one by
the way, is that our expectations should be greater because of technology.
We were capable of putting a man on the moon a long time ago and digital
printing is surely not as demanding a challenge as Œrocket science¹.

In color printing today you can obtain the expectation of prints that match
the image on screen to a reasonable extent, so why not for black and white
prints? Although with color, missing the mark is sometimes the case because
of the inherent perceptual difference between a reflective print and the
transmitted light image of a display.

The solution to the challenge is how the system transmits the data that is
displayed to the printer. That is a problem because we are not printing with
black and white printers, but color printers. Maybe we need to direct our
attention more to getting a true monochrome black and white printer instead
of trying to make a horse out of a zebra?

Regards, David B. Brooks
Shutterbug Magazine
E-mail: fotografx@mindspring.com




On 10/17/04 5:11 AM, "B. Campbell" <bellis60@...> wrote:

> I've been reading this thread without understanding some of ithe technical
> stuff but the basic gist seems to be complaints about the difficulty in
> getting a first print to match a monitor, thus sometimes requiring that a
> second print be made.
> 
> I'm perhaps coming from a different perspective than some participants
> because I don't photograph or print for a living but the notion that this is
> a problem surprises me. It wasn't unusual at all for me to go through ten or
> fifteen iterations in a darkroom to get my final print. For my first try at
> printing a negative in my darkroom my usual output for a print I planned to
> exhibit was roughly one final print per three to four hour darkroom session,
> sometimes  longer. And most of that time was spent doing drudge work like
> setting up the chemicals, jiggling trays, moving dodging and burning tools
> around, washing, toning, drying, cleaning up, etc. Of the three or four
> hours, maybe a half hour at the most was spent doing anything creative, the
> rest of the time was manual labor any idiot could have done if properly
> instructed.
> 
> So I'm supposed to be concerned that after maybe a half hour to an hour of
> creative work on the computer to get the image to look right on the monitor,
> I sometimes have to push the print button twice to get a final digital
> print?
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David B. Brooks" <fotografx@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Cc: <dlruckus@...>
> Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 12:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] How reliable/ precise is your b&w print workflow?
> 
> 
> 
> Duane,
> 
> I began my professional photo career in 1952 so I am probably a bit more the
> cantankerous old f..., as well as having an inclination to be a gadfly.
> 
>>> >>It still seems to me that either device requires reduction in its overall
> density range to try to match a print on paper. At least to
>> > me the visual appearance of an image on screen-no matter how carefully
>> > calibrated- seems more luminous than the resultant print.<<
> 
> Even if the print density range and the luminance range of a display is the
> same, and with a CRT it is very close, the perceptual effect of light
> reflected from a print image compared to an image transmitted by light will
> never seem perceptually equivalent. This is a topic that was researched and
> discussed at some length in Todd Zakia¹s book on Vision and Perception For
> Photographers published by RIT Press. It was also analyzed and discussed in
> depth from another perspective by Marshall McLuhan in Understanding Media.
> 
> Interestingly, about a dozen years ago there were high quality monochrome
> portrait CRT monitors made primarily for the DTP market which had a white
> background with a black image (text) which displayed B&W photographs very
> Orealistically². It is maybe too bad these monitors are no longer made<S>.
> 
> The real beauty with digital is that you can fine-tune the image file to a
> high degree of precision and restructure its characteristic curve ideally,
> as well as do all of the image manipulation you would do with burning and
> dodging, before ever clicking the Print button. Then it should be relatively
> easy to obtain in ink and paper exactly what you expect in your mind¹s eye.
> Other than the limitation imposed by color inks, I think maybe we might be
> making the solution harder to attain than it needs to be. I know Paul Roark
> sees it somewhat from that perspective. However, there is a lot of trial and
> error experience and the craft skill that derives from that in what he does.
> 
> Regards, David B. Brooks
> Shutterbug Magazine
> E-mail: fotografx@...m
> 
> (remainder of thread deleted in the interest of brevity)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It would be unfair of me to comment in depth, as there have been many
QTR updates since the beta version I briefly tested. At that time I
did not have a printer that could take advantage of the options you
mention. From what I saw at the time, I would say yes. I would qualify
that by adding that learning as much as possible about the nature of
quad printing and the tools availbe in QTR, and adding a creative
attitude in how to bend those tools to your advantage, would put one
in a very good position to do many great things with it.
What tends to happen on these lists is that when people find tools and
methods that begin to work well they go off and get to work, posting
rarely. One example is IJC/OPM, we hear little about it here, so I
suspect it works very well. So there may be people doing exactly what
you want to do with QTR and the PTones, but they are off printing.
Sorry I can't be more specific.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:

> 
> Tyler,
> 
> Do you think QTR is a reliable alternative now for what you do? In 
> the area of clean output and hue tonable ability with the Piezzo inks?
> 
> John

Unfortunately I can't answer directly without hyping what myself and
other shops have to offer. I feel that would compromise my ability to
be a valid member of this list.
I hope these solutions do continue to come along, I've always thought
it was a bit of a shame that photography has a high entry fee compared
to many other arts. Any advances help us all, at all levels.
There will always be those that do it for themselves, I am one of
them, those people don't need me and never will.
Even at the highest artistic level, for example, I hope to never see a
Paul Caponigro printed by someone else.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks"
<fotografx@m...> wrote:

> Tyler,
> 
> Unfortunately if easier and less costly solutions for black and white
> printing are found it may diadvantage people like yourself ho are now
> printing for others, as some of those other will begin to do it for
> themselves.
> 
> Regards, David B. Brooks
> Shutterbug Magazine
> E-mail: fotografx@m...
> 
>

In a message dated 10/17/2004 12:04:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
albatros-@... writes:
Snip>>
> But, whereas in the darkroom the reasons for having to try
> several times is very clear, I (as the initiator of this thread) dont
> understand why in an all digital- workflow its not really
> controllable. It has been at least a dozen times that I tweaked and
> re- tweaked my correction curves in the last weeks, and I dont really
> like when I dont understand why and how I have to change things. 
> 
> If you dont mind trying twice or 3 times before you get the result you
> wish, thats fine, I 'd prefer not having to throw away half of my
> prints (= sheets of photo paper).
> 
> greetings, Bernie
> snip>>
Hum, A good example of the cheap and easy method , not being cheap or easy.
Correction curves? are you talking about Roark type curves or photoshop curve 
adjsutments to your greyscale file?
If you have a 21 step greyscale or equivalent, up on you screen and you can 
see it all, one curve to adjust for printing it out properly should be all that 
is needed.
If thats not working than the curves are not proper for the setup being used.
Its all very controllable with the right tools. Piezography in the can from 
inkjetmall comes to mind.
Buy it and start printing I believe is how it works.
Steve M.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

David B. Brooks wrote:
> Ernst,
> 
> I just wonder how long this fledgling development will remain monochromatic.
> The marketing establishment I am sure will demand color because they think
> it has to be color to sell.

The CMYK (yes, CMYK) version of electronic paper is already in 
development

Ernst

David B. Brooks wrote:


> I agree with you about the Epson R-800. However, from my tests I don\ufffdt think
> the Light Black ink is in play when Black only is selected in the driver to
> print grayscale images. In fact the Light Black ink is a very warm black ink
> if you paint some of the ink on a paper sample. But it is an interesting
> possibility if a very fine droplet size and enough nozzles with variable
> droplet technology were applied to making a B&W printer. The \ufffdsimple
> elegance\ufffd of such a solution could be revolutionary \ufffd why not have just one
> ink for black and white printing?????


Black Only doesn't use the grey ink in Epson drivers.  I don't 
think it would be better either to add only grey to the black but 
adapting the color mode to black and white printing in a third 
choice of the driver could deliver better B&W prints than what is 
possible now. Using slight addition of color to get the 
neutrality and/or "toning" of the B&W print like QTR and 
ImagePrint do today.

Few conventional printing techniques could deliver the density, 
detail and smoothness with just one ink tone. Photogravure and 
collotype comes to mind as giving the best results but not all of 
it. More often an offset (or even collotype) duotone was used to 
get closer to the ideal. I agree that BO has an appeal but the 
smaller droplet size also introduces a less consistent dotgain, 
the Epson pro printers relied on a bigger but more consistent 
droplet formation. Humidity and temperature have an effect on 
dotgain that is less controllable with finer droplets.  To 
control that is not an easy task. However I advocated the use of 
more heads = nozzles for BO printing while reducing the ink load 
per head. The 4000 has the 10000 head technology with 180 nozzles 
per color, I don't think the smaller printers come near. The 180 
nozzles are however used for speed instead of quality but in the 
8 pass mode of the 10000 (and 4000 ?).

The Epson 950 had a dual black head. Where they both used in BO 
and was the quality better ?

Ernst

Mr. Campbell described an experience very similar to mine.  Printing 
these days is SO much easier than what we used to have to do.  Even 
so, I find that even though my prints always come very close to what 
my monitor leads me to expect, I often need to print 1,2, or three 
more times to arrive at what I really want.  Looking at an image on a 
monitor is just so different from looking at that image on paper.  
Maybe the fact that I was well into my 50's before switching from 
chemicals will forever prevent me from achieving the one print and 
done workflow that seems to be current ideal.

I might add that following Mr. Brooks' instructions in Shutterbug 
some years ago for adjusting my monitor, and making some rather minor 
use of Color Controls in the Epson driver, are all I've ever needed 
to get my old, but very good Viewsonic to accurately predict my 
print.  For me at least, spending hundreds of dollars for various 
hardware and software to "calibrate" my workflow has not been 
necessary.

eric perkins


-
-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "B. Campbell" 
<bellis60@v...> wrote:
> I've been reading this thread without understanding some of ithe 
technical
> stuff but the basic gist seems to be complaints about the 
difficulty in
> getting a first print to match a monitor, thus sometimes requiring 
that a
> second print be made.
> 
> I'm perhaps coming from a different perspective than some 
participants
> because I don't photograph or print for a living but the notion 
that this is
> a problem surprises me. It wasn't unusual at all for me to go 
through ten or
> fifteen iterations in a darkroom to get my final print. For my 
first try at
> printing a negative in my darkroom my usual output for a print I 
planned to
> exhibit was roughly one final print per three to four hour darkroom 
session,
> sometimes  longer. And most of that time was spent doing drudge 
work like
> setting up the chemicals, jiggling trays, moving dodging and 
burning tools
> around, washing, toning, drying, cleaning up, etc. Of the three or 
four
> hours, maybe a half hour at the most was spent doing anything 
creative, the
> rest of the time was manual labor any idiot could have done if 
properly
> instructed.
> 
> So I'm supposed to be concerned that after maybe a half hour to an 
hour of
> creative work on the computer to get the image to look right on the 
monitor,
> I sometimes have to push the print button twice to get a final 
digital
> print?
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David B. Brooks" <fotografx@m...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Cc: <dlruckus@y...>
> Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 12:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] How reliable/ precise is your b&w print 
workflow?

> 
> 
>

Let me try to put a more positive spin on all of this. This could get
real long real quick, each topic deserves an entire thread in itself.
I'll try to be brief.
First of all, a printer is dedicated B&W or color simply by the nature
of the installed inks. I would argue that as soon as mono inks are
installed, you have a dedicated B&W printer. As we all know several
mono inksets are available, so I would say dedicated B&W printers are
available. There have been fits and starts to the viability of some of
these inks, but right now things seem pretty good indeed. The printer
is further defined by the software that comes with it. That the
drivers are optimized for the intended color output is an obstacle,
but it has been successfully addressed by various ways for quite a while.

Either the driver is forced to do what you want by manipulating RGB
data going in, or you use a dedicated driver more suited to these
needs. Good options for doing so are available all the way from free
RGB curves, $50 shareware, icc profiles, to expensive full featured
RIPs. What would have been un-dreampt of even a few years ago, is that
even some of the most affordable of these options are capable of being
hardware linearized. If you can't afford the hardware yourself,
someone can do it for you easily, or for a nominal fee. There are many
people happily printing using any and all of the options above. There
is a learning curve to everything including the darkroom, and and if
you have yet to be able to print using one of the available options,
there is a flaw somewhere that requires further effort. Of course, you
could be one of those faced with a problem with materials or  workflow
bug beyond your best perfect efforts. We've all been there and feel
your pain, but I'd say you are in the minority, and most of this stuff
works very well these days. Remember, this is all pretty new.

Soft-proofing, this has also been successfully addressed and evolving
for some time. A soft-proof method for any B&W output system can be
visually performed by doing this-

http://f4.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/QM9yQQcyMSI_x0pM_l1qzJJREDiLfw9JxQn1uhD61kZ-q_R8CBdCsyoFcxvh2vFj_p6553skticgw2wMln0cxZb4I7NcSw/Image%20Processing/Matching%20Your%20Monitor%20view%20to%20Your%20Prints.pdf

That this write-up bears my name is a bit silly, it's simply a summary
of well known procedures using Photoshop  features. It's also sorely
in need of a version update, someone?
THis method is not really fully icc compliant, but it works. True icc
softproofing has also been addressed for years, initially through the
creativity of Dan Culbertson., who logically realized any output
system including quads can be characterized (hence predicted and
soft-proofed) with profiling tools.
http://f4.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/QM9yQcm57zs_x0pMWloqSxffpfvVoQW1xyjmLuJTz3ZmPH02gFV2vaq5OEG-Ca5SgaIBRe1W8BvwuP5tHfey5uvoLJYYcw/Image%20Processing/RGB_Softproof_Quad.pdf

An example of this is some work I did with Martin Wesley some time
ago, with an MIS inkset. He was quite happy with the results and
posted here several times about it. This approach has been further
refined and brought back to the limelight by the creative efforts af
Carl Schofield. These methods do not result in output printing
profiles, but successfully characterize and preview any output method,
including tint, paper white and ink black, and are fully icc
compliant. I even use this method with StudioPrint, to hand off
preview profiles to clients wanting to use them while optimizing their
files for our output. I should also add that some of these output
systems are tuned well enough to not require an icc softproof method,
as evidenced by David Brooks comments about good monitor to print
match with Paul's curves (I assume, from a specific gray space
properly displayed), and a good match here from 20% gray space files
here matching well to Studio Print's linearized to 20% DG output.
Personally for both color and B&W, I love using PS softproof including
using paper white and ink black. The dilemma expressed in this thread
seems very well addressed by these features.
Hopefully without hyping the product, Cone's system and profiles
deserve mention. You have a dedicated B&W printer by nature of
installing the inks, you have icc profiles that softproof and print
directly from a grayscale file. If you are willing to use the Epson
driver's color management, you can print even from any application.
Does this not precisely fulfill the requirements expressed by this thread?
I'm not here to recommend this product, but I'm not sure the
significance of it's development has been fully acknowledged in the
community. I have friends with no experience with any of the other
methods we are all aware of here, and they are up and printing,
soft-prooing, etc., with no problems. This is just the first of such
products, and may inspire more to come from others.
That it all doesn't come in a neat package directly from Epson for
$59.99 seems to be the only thing that doesn't fit with what has been
asked for here.
The problem seems to be that information comes and goes, past
accomplishments are buried by history, new accomplishments come from
different factions. In my opinion, given the wealth of materials
available, the advances put forth by various parties including those
mentioned here, that a workflow can be put together that satisfies all
of the expressed needs in this thread, with your materials of choice.
Admittedly, this may take some work, and other than Cone it doesn't
all come prepackaged for you. But hey, it's only the beginning. It was
always work, consider this today's equivalent of a Picker newsletter.

Tyler

--- That was an extrememly well thought out response Tyler. Exactly,...... whenever you 
combine one persons printer technology with another person's ink advancements along 
with a third persons software advancements there are bound to be glitches to overcome. I 
some stranfge way I actually like the fact that one megacorporation doesn't have control of 
it all. Everyone should print out what you just said and put it on their wall. And, it is 
getting better.

Sorry, one more point. I've completely ignored options using OEM inks,
like the ImagePrint approach. This requires no dedicated printer,
yeilds results many are happy with.
Even more interesting, the exact same approach can be set up with QTR
and even hardware linearized (not available in ImagePrint). I'm sure a
soft proof approach from the previous post could easily be utilized if
needed.
For $50, OEM inks, cross platform, what more can we ask for?

Assuming it works of course <G>

OK, I'm done.
Tyler

You aren't "done." You da man!
--
Hogarth Hughes


Tyler Boley wrote:

>Sorry, one more point. I've completely ignored options using OEM inks,
>like the ImagePrint approach. This requires no dedicated printer,
>yeilds results many are happy with.
>Even more interesting, the exact same approach can be set up with QTR
>and even hardware linearized (not available in ImagePrint). I'm sure a
>soft proof approach from the previous post could easily be utilized if
>needed.
>For $50, OEM inks, cross platform, what more can we ask for?
>
>Assuming it works of course <G>
>
>OK, I'm done.
>Tyler
>
>
>  
>

Related to the subject:

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3753886.stm

Ernst

Hi All,

Great information in this exchange! I upped this question on the
Imageprint Group quite a few weeks ago and didn't receice an answer --
since it's kind of "on topic" with this thread, thought I'd ask the
resident experts of this group...

I have a multi-license IP RIP that I use for my 9600 and 9000/7000
printers. Yes, the B&W output with the 9600 and Ultrachromes is pretty
darn good -- but it just doesn't compare (in my humble opinion) to the
Piezotones and new MIS/UT inks for many images. Before the Piezotones
and new MIS Ultratones came out I was getting some good output using
the few "quad-tone" profiles available with IP, but the formulations
have changed, papers have changed and IP is not interested in
supporting "quad-tone" ink sets any longer.

Now to the question -- I spoke with John almost a year ago about
using my Eye-One to create my own "quad-tone profiles". He mentioned
that it could be done as an end-user process in a manner similar to
StudioPrint, and he would let me know how to linearize the output to
the new ink formulations and changing paper landscape (pun intended).

However, that was just about the time that ColorByte was starting
their push to release Version 6, so I never heard from John on this
again and haven't been able to find out how linearization of IP might
be accomplished.

I've used StudioPrint enough to appreciate the improvements that 
linearization provides with the new quad ink formulations but just
can't quite justify adding another RIP to my collection. Since I'm PC
based I can't yet take advantage of the contols available to Mac users
on Roy's QTR.

So... Has anyone learned how to linearize the IP RIP for Piezo or UT
inks using the Eye-One? If so, I'd sure appreciate a knowledge
transfer...

Thanks very much!
Richard
   

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
<tyler@t...> wrote:
> 
> Sorry, one more point. I've completely ignored options using OEM
inks,
> like the ImagePrint approach. This requires no dedicated printer,
> yeilds results many are happy with.
> Even more interesting, the exact same approach can be set up with
QTR
> and even hardware linearized (not available in ImagePrint). I'm
sure a
> soft proof approach from the previous post could easily be utilized
if

> needed.
> For $50, OEM inks, cross platform, what more can we ask for?
> 
> Assuming it works of course <G>
> 
> OK, I'm done.
> Tyler

Think again. QTR now runs on windoze platforms, and you can linearize it.
--
Hogarth Hughes


richard_h95050 wrote:

>I've used StudioPrint enough to appreciate the improvements that 
>linearization provides with the new quad ink formulations but just
>can't quite justify adding another RIP to my collection. Since I'm PC
>based I can't yet take advantage of the contols available to Mac users
>on Roy's QTR.
>
>Thanks very much!
>Richard
>   
>
>  
>

Hogarth,
> Think again. QTR now runs on windoze platforms, and you can 
linearize it.

Pardon my ignorance but how does one linearize the QTR output? I've 
seen this mentioned several times but the methodology for 
linearization has never been clear to me.

Thanks,

Don Bryant

Hogarth,

Thanks for your reply. Yes, I have spent some time in the past
chatting with Roy and installed the Beta on a Win2K machine the first
day it was released. Made some beautiful UltraChrome B&W prints on my
2200, and know that he is working generously on adding printers,
profiles and functionality for QTR on all platforms.

However, to my knowledge the linerarization interface provided for the
Mac version has not yet been ported to Windows. Admittedly, the
operative term here is "...to my knowledge" -- so if you and/or Roy or
anyone else has indeed worked out a way to linearize QTR output on
Windows, I would be a most appreciative recipient of the information.

Still very interested in the same process for IP as well...

Kind regards,
Richard


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Hogarth Hughes
<hogarth@s...> wrote:
> Think again. QTR now runs on windoze platforms, and you can
linearize it.
> --
> Hogarth Hughes
> 
> 
> richard_h95050 wrote:
> 
> >I've used StudioPrint enough to appreciate the improvements that 
> >linearization provides with the new quad ink formulations but just
> >can't quite justify adding another RIP to my collection. Since I'm
PC
> >based I can't yet take advantage of the contols available to Mac
users

> >on Roy's QTR.
> >
> >Thanks very much!
> >Richard
> >   
> >
> >  
> >

I had read, on this list I think, that linearization was in the latest 
releases of QTR. I'm a StudioPrint user, so have no direct experience 
with QTR. Roy is the expert, and his website is the authority. If it's 
not in the windoze version, then I mislead you and I apologize.

I haven't seen anything that says you can linearize ImagePrint either. 
StudioPrint, OTOH, does have functionality for linearization built in.
--
Hogarth Hughes


richard_h95050 wrote:

>Hogarth,
>
>Thanks for your reply. Yes, I have spent some time in the past
>chatting with Roy and installed the Beta on a Win2K machine the first
>day it was released. Made some beautiful UltraChrome B&W prints on my
>2200, and know that he is working generously on adding printers,
>profiles and functionality for QTR on all platforms.
>
>However, to my knowledge the linerarization interface provided for the
>Mac version has not yet been ported to Windows. Admittedly, the
>operative term here is "...to my knowledge" -- so if you and/or Roy or
>anyone else has indeed worked out a way to linearize QTR output on
>Windows, I would be a most appreciative recipient of the information.
>
>Still very interested in the same process for IP as well...
>
>Kind regards,
>Richard
>
>
>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Hogarth Hughes
><hogarth@s...> wrote:
>  
>
>>Think again. QTR now runs on windoze platforms, and you can
>>    
>>
>linearize it.
>  
>
>>--
>>Hogarth Hughes
>>
>>
>>richard_h95050 wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>I've used StudioPrint enough to appreciate the improvements that 
>>>linearization provides with the new quad ink formulations but just
>>>can't quite justify adding another RIP to my collection. Since I'm
>>>      
>>>
>PC
>  
>
>>>based I can't yet take advantage of the contols available to Mac
>>>      
>>>
>users
>  
>
>>>on Roy's QTR.
>>>
>>>Thanks very much!
>>>Richard
>>>  
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Hogarth,

No apologies are necessary, please. I appreciate your response and
will send Roy an email directly just to confirm.

Colorbyte doesn't advertise linearization, but when I was talking with
John Pannozzo before making my decision to go with a multiple license
version of Imageprint or buy StudioPrint, he was the one who said I
could linearize for quadtone inksets and paper combinations. Since he
is the President of Colorbyte, I thought the information was accurate
and would be made accessible to me. 

I worked with Peter Supry at Studioprint and got my linearization
"trail by fire" with his kind assistance on a 14 day demo. Once
understood, it certainly is a straighforward and elegantly simple
process. However, at the time I did want the UltraChrome B&W
capability (not initially offered by SP) and I got a price I couldn't
refuse on an IP package thinking I'd also have the ability to perform
linearization of quadtones as well. Still thinking on that one ;>)

Since I have several wide-format printers now running IP (and a 7000
using R9/BWPro), the thought of dropping another $2K+ into StudioPrint
is just a bit more than I can justify. But then, Xmas is just around
the corner and it's amazing what you can justify with a little eggnog,
brandy and a credit card ;>)

I'm sure Roy and all the fine folks supporting QTR will continue to
deliver more functionality for the Windoze contingent -- so I guess I
could just wait a bit or maybe just break down and buy a Mac... nah!

I've also been running Paul's UT formulations and curves through my
desktop machines and had excellent results. In fact, most of my
smaller prints are done with UTs, but I prefer the controls and RIP
dithering for the wide format Epsons -- tend to have fewer problems
with micro-banding.

Just curious what kind of inks (and machines) you're running with SP?
My "demo" time was spent on 7000/9000 machines with Jon's WT and NT
Piezotones. Absolutely beautiful tonality after a couple of passes
with the Eye-One...

Thanks again, Hogarth.

Cheers!

Richard

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Hogarth Hughes
<hogarth@s...> wrote:
> I had read, on this list I think, that linearization was in the
latest 
> releases of QTR. I'm a StudioPrint user, so have no direct
experience 
> with QTR. Roy is the expert, and his website is the authority. If
it's 
> not in the windoze version, then I mislead you and I apologize.
> 
> I haven't seen anything that says you can linearize ImagePrint
either. 
> StudioPrint, OTOH, does have functionality for linearization built
in.
> --
> Hogarth Hughes
> 
> 
> richard_h95050 wrote:
> 
> >Hogarth,
> >
> >Thanks for your reply. Yes, I have spent some time in the past
> >chatting with Roy and installed the Beta on a Win2K machine the
first
> >day it was released. Made some beautiful UltraChrome B&W prints on
my
> >2200, and know that he is working generously on adding printers,
> >profiles and functionality for QTR on all platforms.
> >
> >However, to my knowledge the linerarization interface provided for
the
> >Mac version has not yet been ported to Windows. Admittedly, the
> >operative term here is "...to my knowledge" -- so if you and/or
Roy or
> >anyone else has indeed worked out a way to linearize QTR output on
> >Windows, I would be a most appreciative recipient of the
information.

> >
> >Still very interested in the same process for IP as well...
> >
> >Kind regards,
> >Richard
> >
> >
> >--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Hogarth Hughes
> ><hogarth@s...> wrote:
> >  
> >
> >>Think again. QTR now runs on windoze platforms, and you can
> >>    
> >>
> >linearize it.
> >  
> >
> >>--
> >>Hogarth Hughes
> >>
> >>
 >

richard_h95050 wrote:

>Hogarth,
>
>
>Just curious what kind of inks (and machines) you're running with SP?
>My "demo" time was spent on 7000/9000 machines with Jon's WT and NT
>Piezotones. Absolutely beautiful tonality after a couple of passes
>with the Eye-One...
>
>Thanks again, Hogarth.
>
>Cheers!
>
>Richard
>
>  
>
I'm using Cone's selenium Piezotones in an Epson 7600, mostly on 
Hahnemuhle Photo Rag. Today anyway.
--
Hogarth Hughes

David,
Sorry for delayed response.Been away.

> Interestingly, about a dozen years ago there were high quality
monochrome
> portrait CRT monitors made primarily for the DTP market which had a
white
> background with a black image (text) which displayed B&W photographs
very
> Œrealistically².<S>.
>

I worked for a company manufactoring DTP systems using the crts-page
at a time-like this. Market interest in color systems and competitive
forces drove their demise.


> Other than the limitation imposed by color inks, I think maybe we
might be
> making the solution harder to attain than it needs to be. I know
Paul Roark
> sees it somewhat from that perspective. However, there is a lot of
trial and
> error experience and the craft skill that derives from that in what
he does.


Yes,that was pretty much my point earlier. For now, at least, the
process is very much craft driven. I am delighted with the ability to
squeeze the utmost from a negative or transparency via digital means.
It puts those capabilitys in the hands of mere mortals as well as
large high budget concerns.In the past, masking for tonal changes,
sharpness via unsharp masks etc required special skills and gear. ie:
significant time and money.It was/is certainly doable by ordinary
people but not easily or at low cost.

Best,
Duane