David, Of course you are correct in that the density range of a paper print is considerably less than the crt/lcd image can be. That's part of the purpose of doing the profiling to begin with. There is no doubt either that you cannot get any darker on a crt/lcd than the absence of light transmitted, so the appearance depends, as you said, on ambient light conditions and the physical surface characteristics of the device. I am happy to know that LCDs are advancing so greatly and presumably will be easily available soon with the gamma controls you referred to. It still seems to me that either device requires reduction in its overall density range to try to match a print on paper. At least to me the visual appearance of an image on screen-no matter how carefully calibrated- seems more luminous than the resultant print. Thats not to say that the difference is huge and unmanageable. I see from your other posts on advancements/hopes for more readily useful solutions applicable to a larger audience that you feel it is at least potentialy possible to get wysiwyg completely. One hopes for that also. In the meantime super prints can be made despite all the variables. It is still in my mind not much different than attaining order and reproducible output(fine prints not consumer) ever was in the wet darkroom. There are in fact orders of magnitude more options and choices to be made, long learning curves, and much experimentation to do, as witness the folks in this group. I come from a long ago background in the photo arts and do not need to make a living at this so am somewhat dated. The tools I require must be fairly simple and low cost to match a retired persons income. That is why I commented on skinning the cat in many ways. I believe the "workflow" is paramount and there are various possible means to an end. They are not always universal or even broadly desirable but thankfully can be workable. I didn't mean to be disputive or to question your expertise. Just an old xxxx looking for more enlightment. Best. Duane --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks" <fotografx@m...> wrote: > Duane, > > I believe you would find that it is not all relative. No matter how much > light you apply to illuminating a print, the density range of the print > remains the same. However, with an LCD the black luminance remains little > changed when you up the amount of light pushed through the screen with the > backlight, so the maximum luminance climbs producing a much greater > luminance range. In fact some LCD¹s now being sold have a contrast ratio of > 600:1. There is no possible way to obtain effective print matching with that > kind of display performance. But it does allow a stockbroker to easily read > charts and graphs even on a sunny day if he is in a corner office. > > Regards, David B. Brooks > Shutterbug Magazine > E-mail: fotografx@m... > > > > > On 10/16/04 12:17 PM, "dlruckus" <dlruckus@y...> wrote: > > > > > David, > > > > Thanks for the updating. I am aware of the low end deficiencys > > (blacks) of CRTs but I was unaware of advances in LCDs in respect to > > max illumination capabilities. That they now excede the brightest CRTs > > is interesting. The gamma info is interesting too. I'm not > > particularly surprised that it all has to be referenced to various and > > sundry adjustments,profiling etc. Your reference to reflectance versus > > luminance is what throws me. I suppose it's all relative since one can > > put as bright a light as desired on a finished print and thereby match > > the upper end of the scale with whichever screen is used. There are > > many ways to skin the cat. > > Best. > > > > Duane > > > > > > > > -- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks" > > <fotografx@m...> wrote: > >> > Duane, > >> > > >> > A typical LCD has a maximum luminance these days of around 250 > > cd/m2, but > >> > usually adjusted for ideal photographic image display LCD¹s are > > choked down > >> > to between 150 and 180 cd/m2, with a black point between 0.05 and 0.09. > >> > CRT¹s after calibration and profiling will have a luminance range > > from 0.07 > >> > to 0.90. A fine print¹s density range is much closer, ideally > > slightly more > >> > measured with a densitometer than the range of a CRT, but very much less > >> > than the range of an LCD. However, on a perceptual basis because a > > print is > >> > viewed by usually less than ideal illumination (diffuse) the > > perceived tonal > >> > range is even closer to that of a CRT because the CRT display is > > projected > >> > rather than reflected light (unless contaminated by high levels of > > ambient > >> > illumination). > >> > > >> > Additionally the standard 2.2 gamma setting for displays produces a very > >> > different midpoint gray value between a CRT, which closely matches a > > print > >> > midpoint gray, compared to an LCD which with its longer luminance > > range has > >> > a much brighter midpoint gray. So far as I know Barco is the only LCD > >> > offered which has a gamma correction function that adjust for this > > midpoint > >> > gray discrepancy. > >> > > >> > Regards, David B. Brooks > >> > Shutterbug Magazine > >> > E-mail: fotografx@m... > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On 10/15/04 11:34 AM, "dlruckus" <dlruckus@y...> wrote: > >> > > >>> > > > >>> > > David, > >>> > > > >>> > > One would think that the flat panel LCD screen would be just the > >>> > > opposite and be closer to paper than the CRT. That has been my > >>> > > experience to date but perhaps I'm missing the most recent advances in > >>> > > that field. > >>> > > > >>> > > Best. > >>> > > Duane > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks" > >>> > > <fotografx@m...> wrote: > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > Bernie, > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > May I suggest that ³color management² and monitor calibration and > >>> > > profiling > >>>>> > >> > could at least reduce the discrepancy between what you see > > on-screen and > >>>>> > >> > what you obtain in a print even though you are working with > >>> > > grayscale and > >>>>> > >> > not color. I have jumped in here in part because I was just > > delivered > >>>>> > >> > ColorVision¹s new Spyder2Pro colorimeter and software, and the > > resulting > >>>>> > >> > calibration and profiling I am now obtaining is amazingly > >>> > > well-matched and > >>>>> > >> > the screen gray is at a neutral balance I¹ve not seen before. And > >>> > > may I also > >>>>> > >> > suggest that with an LCD flat panel, its grater brightness range > >>> > > compared to > >>>>> > >> > a CRT, makes it that much more difficult to obtain screen matching > >>> > > in prints > >>>>> > >> > as there is an inherent gamma discrepancy. CRT¹s are much closer in > >>>>> > >> > brightness range and apparent gamma effect to a print density > > range. > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > Regards, David B. Brooks > >>>>> > >> > Shutterbug Magazine > >>>>> > >> > E-mail: fotografx@m... > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > On 10/15/04 4:17 AM, "Bernie Ess" <albatros-@...> wrote: > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > When I started b&w printing on an Epson, I thought one of the > >>>>>>> > >>> > > advantages over the darkroom was that once its well set up, > > there > >>>>>>> > >>> > > would be no trying and experimenting and that I would have > 100% > >>>>>>> > >>> > > predictable results. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Now, a few hundreds or probably thousands of prints later I > > find that > >>>>>>> > >>> > > this is > >>>>>>> > >>> > > not exactly the case. On my 2100/UT7 workflow I find the > > following > >>>>>>> > >>> > > issues: > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > 1. My output from the file + Roark curves is roughly, but > never > >>>>>>> > >>> > > exactly what I see on my monitor. When I look at the > > grayscale on my > >>>>>>> > >>> > > flat panel the 100% to 0% > >>>>>>> > >>> > > steps are quite well separated, but in the uncorrected print > > the deep > >>>>>>> > >>> > > shadows (around 95% > >>>>>>> > >>> > > black) are not well resolved, 95% comes out totally > >>>>>>> > >>> > > black: So I had to make a curve that boosts the deep shadows. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > 2. I often find myself having to do several prints of the > > same photo, > >>>>>>> > >>> > > because the general "look" of the print is not like on the > > screen, see > >>>>>>> > >>> > > also my other message about the foliage and trees. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > 3. The most mysterious thing is that my output seems to vary > > from time > >>>>>>> > >>> > > to time. Sometimes I find the prints too dark compared to > > the screen, > >>>>>>> > >>> > > sometimes they are slightly too light. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Finally its not that different from the darkroom, I would say > >>>>>>> > >>> > > gradually more predictable (maybe even by a large margin, > > but that is > >>>>>>> > >>> > > probably because my traditional darkroom skills are so poor). > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > So, do you have a 100% WYSIWYG workflow? > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Thanks for your input, > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Bernhard > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other > >>> > > resources as > >>>>>>> > >>> > > they are often being updated. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or > you > >>> > > wish to > >>>>>>> > >>> > > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by > visiting > >>> > > this same > >>>>>>> > >>> > > page. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > >>>>>>> > >>> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier > > messages > >>> > > to keep > >>>>>>> > >>> > > them short. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > - Good manners are required at all time. 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Message
Re: [Digital BW] How reliable/ precise is your b&w print workflow?
2004-10-17 by dlruckus