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2010-04-15 by Lew Schwartz
In the old, A Adams, Minor White days, previsualization meant looking at something out there in the world and imagining how one would like a final print to look. Now we're previsualizing by looking at a scan or a monitor. Times do change. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2010-04-15 by tboleyyh
but I have to agree with Jon, though many initial large moves may be done on the monitor, the decisions that make for a print with that something extra are done by seeing how things are working out on paper. That hasn't changed... at least when it comes to printing. Tyler --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Lew Schwartz <lew1716@...> wrote:
> > In the old, A Adams, Minor White days, previsualization meant looking at > something out there in the world and imagining how one would like a final > print to look. Now we're previsualizing by looking at a scan or a monitor. > Times do change. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >
2010-04-15 by dlruckus
another here who agrees. I've often wondered how miracles could be wrought by some I've heard who claim to have so automated their workflow that there is no such thing as a "test" print, just a final print.Even with all of the controls we now have over the process I think the artistic decisions are only met by seeing the print and iteration to the point one is sick of looking at the thing and moves on to the next image ...to rinse and repeat. Duane --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:
> > but I have to agree with Jon, though many initial large moves may be done on the monitor, the decisions that make for a print with that something extra are done by seeing how things are working out on paper. That hasn't changed... at least when it comes to printing. > Tyler >
2010-04-15 by Walker Blackwell
vis a vis pre-visualization, I've actually noticed that certain changes in dev and exposure actually help the raw (positive) bw scan process. This may sound counter-intuitive, but with a general contrast scene and tmax 100 4/5 8/10 film and TMX RS developer (without the replenisher) I've actually underexposed slightly for my camera's general ISO with this film (50 to give a good contrast in dr) and over-developed at 1-9 68%. This might not work for everyone, but I've noticed that this method gives a rather thin neg with lots of shadow detail and is perfect for scanning and working with in Photoshop. Less fog the better for scanning and the tgrain and shadow detail in tmx 100 really responds well to every dig scanner I've used on it. So I do actually shoot for digital scanning now, not for darkroom . . . ------ Nice to see you're liking that ACR-LR workflow Tyler. It especially works with contact scans of rolls with multiple images all at different contrasts and exposures. You can swoop the exposure from one end to the other on-the-fly and see all the tones with the correct contrast. Pretty nifty and totally not able to be done in the darkroom. I do all my roll contacts like that now. (LR3.2b lets you invert directly in the app.) Walker
2010-04-15 by tboleyyh
Amadou and I have talked about this a lot. There are those for whom the image is all, and printing is primarily a way of reproducing that. I can see how a nailed down well color managed setup can pretty much get you right there. But then there are those who are printmakers, which I aspire to, for whom the object is the thing, the image being an inseparable essential part of it, but not all of it. With that comes the responsibilities of close investigation of materials, and process, some just have it a some don't or require certain treatment or combination with other materials to come alive. Then additionally you find some combinations, along with some images, have sweet spots, and you find yourself while evaluating tests, instinctually gravitating towards those tones, while other prints, only slightly different, just don't seem to have it. Impossible to do off the monitor only. The monitor image is not the thing, the print's the thing man. The other explanation is we're all delusional and stone cold crazy. But I saw Smith's Minimata Pieta image countless times in books, very famous, famous story. Obvioulsy the content's the thing. But then I saw an original silver in a museum, yes the image's the thing, but presented like that it's literally an overwhelimg experience. Tyler --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dlruckus" <dlruckus@...> wrote:
> > another here who agrees. I've often wondered how miracles could be wrought by some I've heard who claim to have so automated their workflow that there is no such thing as a "test" print, just a final print.Even with all of the controls we now have over the process I think the artistic decisions are only met by seeing the print and iteration to the point one is sick of looking at the thing and moves on to the next image ...to rinse and repeat. > > Duane > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "tboleyyh" <tyler@> wrote: > > > > but I have to agree with Jon, though many initial large moves may be done on the monitor, the decisions that make for a print with that something extra are done by seeing how things are working out on paper. That hasn't changed... at least when it comes to printing. > > Tyler > > >
2010-04-15 by BKPhoto@aol.com
Walker- This is an interesting observation, but one that actually corresponds to a basic Zone System principle: the whole idea is to produce the least dense negative that has the information needed to produce the previsualized print. Bill K.
-----Original Message-----
From: Walker Blackwell <forums@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, Apr 14, 2010 11:00 pm
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Is Camera Raw enough? - ironic observation
vis a vis pre-visualization, I've actually noticed that certain changes in dev and exposure actually help the raw (positive) bw scan process. This may sound counter-intuitive, but with a general contrast scene and tmax 100 4/5 8/10 film and TMX RS developer (without the replenisher) I've actually underexposed slightly for my camera's general ISO with this film (50 to give a good contrast in dr) and over-developed at 1-9 68%. This might not work for everyone, but I've noticed that this method gives a rather thin neg with lots of shadow detail and is perfect for scanning and working with in Photoshop. Less fog the better for scanning and the tgrain and shadow detail in tmx 100 really responds well to every dig scanner I've used on it.
So I do actually shoot for digital scanning now, not for darkroom . . .
------
Nice to see you're liking that ACR-LR workflow Tyler. It especially works with contact scans of rolls with multiple images all at different contrasts and exposures. You can swoop the exposure from one end to the other on-the-fly and see all the tones with the correct contrast. Pretty nifty and totally not able to be done in the darkroom. I do all my roll contacts like that now. (LR3.2b lets you invert directly in the app.)
Walker
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2010-04-15 by tboleyyh
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Walker Blackwell <forums@...> wrote: > >...Pretty nifty and totally not able to be done in the darkroom. I do all my roll contacts like that now. (LR3.2b lets you invert directly in the app.) > OT but I have to ask.. how about color neg? Tyler
2010-04-15 by Terry Ritz
On 14/04/10 10:34 PM, "tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote: > But then there are those who are printmakers, which I aspire to, for whom the > object is the thing, the image being an inseparable essential part of it, but > not all of it. > The monitor image is not the thing, the > print's the thing man. > The other explanation is we're all delusional and stone cold crazy. Photography came alive for me in the black and white darkroom. For a period of about 10 years, after moving into a very small house, I did not have space for a darkroom and I stopped taking photographs. There seemed no point. What started me up again was digital. Being able to edit and print images brought photography back to life for me. I've heard it said that the print is your voice. Everything leading up to the print (image capture and editing) are all in service of the print. That makes a lot of sense to me. Terry.
2010-04-15 by Ernst Dinkla
Walker Blackwell schreef: > vis a vis pre-visualization, I've actually noticed that certain > changes in dev and exposure actually help the raw (positive) bw scan > process. This may sound counter-intuitive, but with a general > contrast scene and tmax 100 4/5 8/10 film and TMX RS developer > (without the replenisher) I've actually underexposed slightly for my > camera's general ISO with this film (50 to give a good contrast in > dr) and over-developed at 1-9 68%. This might not work for everyone, > but I've noticed that this method gives a rather thin neg with lots > of shadow detail and is perfect for scanning and working with in > Photoshop. Less fog the better for scanning and the tgrain and shadow > detail in tmx 100 really responds well to every dig scanner I've used > on it. > > So I do actually shoot for digital scanning now, not for darkroom . . > . > > ------ > > Nice to see you're liking that ACR-LR workflow Tyler. It especially > works with contact scans of rolls with multiple images all at > different contrasts and exposures. You can swoop the exposure from > one end to the other on-the-fly and see all the tones with the > correct contrast. Pretty nifty and totally not able to be done in the > darkroom. I do all my roll contacts like that now. (LR3.2b lets you > invert directly in the app.) > > Walker Thin B&W negatives do not scan well on the Nikon 8000 with wet mounting in my experience. While they give an acceptable scan on the Epson V700 so I usually set 50-75% of the ISO value of the film, overexpose and process accordingly for a denser but lower contrast negative. I'm using a not so fancy B&W development in a Jobo Auto processor with a Rodinal dilution. Consistent but not optimal. Scan with Vuescan and one of the B&W development profiles that give the right histogram, 64 bit Tiff output. Tried a RAW route but do not see much gain that way. Tyler, Does the Bruce Lindbloom application work well with any B&W (aliased) grain ? -- Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ | Dinkla Grafische Techniek | | www.pigment-print.com | | ( unvollendet ) |
2010-04-15 by C D Tobie
On Apr 15, 2010, at 2:23 AM, Terry Ritz wrote: > I've heard it said that the print is your voice. Everything leading > up to > the print (image capture and editing) are all in service of the > print. That > makes a lot of sense to me. The print is your voice, and everything before it is your unvoiced thoughts... C. David Tobie Global Product Technology Manager Digital Imaging & Home Theater CDTobie@... ---------- Datacolor www.datacolor.com/Spyder3 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2010-04-15 by Lew
I guess this makes your clients, if you do this commercially, your invoiced.
-----Original Message----- From: C D Tobie <CDTobie@...> Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 09:25:48 To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Is Camera Raw enough? - ironic observation On Apr 15, 2010, at 2:23 AM, Terry Ritz wrote: > I've heard it said that the print is your voice. Everything leading > up to > the print (image capture and editing) are all in service of the > print. That > makes a lot of sense to me. The print is your voice, and everything before it is your unvoiced thoughts... C. David Tobie Global Product Technology Manager Digital Imaging & Home Theater CDTobie@... ---------- Datacolor www.datacolor.com/Spyder3 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2010-04-15 by C D Tobie
On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:31 AM, Lew wrote: > I guess this makes your clients, if you do this commercially, your > invoiced. Yes, the voices in your head, that you can't make go away... C. David Tobie Global Product Technology Manager Digital Imaging & Home Theater CDTobie@... ---------- Datacolor www.datacolor.com/Spyder3 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2010-04-15 by Walker Blackwell
Tyler, I'm working on a c-neg setup. It involves shooting gretag targets with film. Scanning raw (positive) c-neg and inverting in ACR. Then building the camera icc for that film to get the color-transitions correct with correct WP, etc. I hope it works because this would mean that I can do really great raw scans for c-neg. I hate doing the transitions in scanner software. Walker On Apr 15, 2010, at 1:13 AM, tboleyyh wrote: > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Walker Blackwell <forums@...> wrote: > > > >...Pretty nifty and totally not able to be done in the darkroom. I do all my roll contacts like that now. (LR3.2b lets you invert directly in the app.) > > > > OT but I have to ask.. how about color neg? > Tyler > > Walker Blackwell 802.821.4451 www.walkerblackwell.com aim: greendirtblues wblackwell@... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2010-04-15 by E.Neilsen
"Impossible to do off the monitor only. The monitor image is not the thing, the print's the thing man. The other explanation is we're all delusional and stone cold crazy." can I quote you on that Tyler ; ) And you can pre visualize all day long, sometimes you just can not move the sun, change the color of the rock and how your film sees it and the relationship to the other colors. Eric Neilsen Eric Neilsen Photography 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 Dallas, TX 75226 www.ericneilsenphotography.com skype me with ejprinter www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1 Let's Talk Photography [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2010-04-15 by Paul Grant
I would imagine shooting the McBeth color chart on film then saving as a DNG and using the profile editor with the DNG profile editor would be slick. I use this all the time with my Canon 5d Mark II but had not thought about using it for film. I will have to give it a try. By the way for those that have not looked at the camera profiles in the Lightroom Calibration TAB your in for a treat. And creating your own camera profiles using the DNG editor really helps. Paul
On Apr 15, 2010, at 6:50 AM, Walker Blackwell wrote: > Tyler, > > I'm working on a c-neg setup. It involves shooting gretag targets with film. Scanning raw (positive) c-neg and inverting in ACR. Then building the camera icc for that film to get the color-transitions correct with correct WP, etc. I hope it works because this would mean that I can do really great raw scans for c-neg. I hate doing the transitions in scanner software. > > Walker > > > On Apr 15, 2010, at 1:13 AM, tboleyyh wrote: > >> >> >> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Walker Blackwell <forums@...> wrote: >>> >>> ...Pretty nifty and totally not able to be done in the darkroom. I do all my roll contacts like that now. (LR3.2b lets you invert directly in the app.) >>> >> >> OT but I have to ask.. how about color neg? >> Tyler >> >> > > Walker Blackwell > 802.821.4451 > www.walkerblackwell.com > aim: greendirtblues > wblackwell@googlewave.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See „Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines‰ in the Files section: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >
2010-04-15 by Walker Blackwell
I also use the xrite colorchecker passport . . . But yeah. I'm exited about ACR 6/LR noise reduction as well vis a vis film. If I can pull from a raw scan and work on noise etc all in ACR, this may very well up the anti in archival film scanning not just dslr pics. Then this can be opened in Photoshop as a smart object (adding full layer adjustments etc). In otherwords, it's almost possible to never actually manipulate a pixel on the base scan of a straight photo besides basic dust-busting. Walker On Apr 15, 2010, at 5:12 PM, Paul Grant wrote: > I would imagine shooting the McBeth color chart on film then saving as a DNG and using the profile editor with the DNG profile editor would be slick. I use this all the time with my Canon 5d Mark II but had not thought about using it for film. I will have to give it a try. > > By the way for those that have not looked at the camera profiles in the Lightroom Calibration TAB your in for a treat. And creating your own camera profiles using the DNG editor really helps. > > Paul > On Apr 15, 2010, at 6:50 AM, Walker Blackwell wrote: > >> Tyler, >> >> I'm working on a c-neg setup. It involves shooting gretag targets with film. Scanning raw (positive) c-neg and inverting in ACR. Then building the camera icc for that film to get the color-transitions correct with correct WP, etc. I hope it works because this would mean that I can do really great raw scans for c-neg. I hate doing the transitions in scanner software. >> >> Walker >> >> >> On Apr 15, 2010, at 1:13 AM, tboleyyh wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Walker Blackwell <forums@...> wrote: >>>> >>>> ...Pretty nifty and totally not able to be done in the darkroom. I do all my roll contacts like that now. (LR3.2b lets you invert directly in the app.) >>>> >>> >>> OT but I have to ask.. how about color neg? >>> Tyler >>> >>> >> >> Walker Blackwell >> 802.821.4451 >> www.walkerblackwell.com >> aim: greendirtblues >> wblackwell@googlewave.com >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. >> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint >> >> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. >> >> Please follow these basic guidelines: >> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. >> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. >> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. >> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See „Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines‰ in the Files section: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ >> >> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > Walker Blackwell 802.821.4451 www.walkerblackwell.com aim: greendirtblues wblackwell@...
2010-04-16 by dlruckus
LOL,, I've been disillusioned many times in my life so I guess the delusional thing fits. Duane --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:
> > The other explanation is we're all delusional and stone cold crazy. > Tyler