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looking at unwanted tints in B/W

looking at unwanted tints in B/W

2011-01-11 by keith

Whilst checking a recent B/W print (iPF8300) under dim tungsten lighting I noticed a very slight magenta tint.

Nothing uncommon here, I remembered the effect very well from some of my earliest B/W inkjet prints (8-10 yrs ago), and indeed have one on the wall (Lyson SG inks) that shows the effect very much more (yet no-one ever commented ;-) )

I decided to have a look at the effect on our new Canon iPF8300 in a number of print modes and lighting conditions.

I've written up some notes on the tests that may be of interest?

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/bw_printing/issues_with_grey.html

I do have a copy of True black and white for the 8300, which I'll have to test as well, once I've linearised it for the papers I was looking at.

As an aside, I was also looking for B/W ink sets in the UK, does anyone know of any current UK distributors/suppliers? (Note: UK suppliers, not US ones that ship)

Re: looking at unwanted tints in B/W

2011-01-11 by Paul

"keith" <yg_1@...> wrote:

> ... I was also looking for B/W ink sets in the UK, does anyone know of any current UK distributors/suppliers? (Note: UK suppliers, not US ones that ship)


Image Specialists, MIS's supplier, does have European distributors, but that would be for bulk ink, I assume.  See http://www.image-specialists.com/about_us_global_dis.aspx#netherlands

Of course, my answer to ink supplies, costs, unwanted color, etc. is to buy the MIS "Eboni" (IS MK) and mix my own -- http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Ink-Mixing.pdf.  But, of course, I know this is a not something most want to mess with.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] looking at unwanted tints in B/W

2011-01-12 by Mike Finley

On 11/01/2011 15:09, keith wrote:
>
> ...
> As an aside, I was also looking for B/W ink sets in the UK, does 
> anyone know of any current UK distributors/suppliers? (Note: UK 
> suppliers, not US ones that ship)
>
I couldn't find one when I looked, and have given up at present - I'm 
not sure there's enough life left in my Epson R2400 anyway!

-- 
mike finley photography
http://www.mikefinley.co.uk




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: looking at unwanted tints in B/W

2011-01-12 by keith

> Of course, my answer to ink supplies, costs, unwanted color, etc. is to buy the MIS "Eboni" (IS MK) and mix my own -- http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Ink-Mixing.pdf.  But, of course, I know this is a not something most want to mess with.

Thanks - I'm not finding anything available 'ready to go' in the UK.

I know that two previous suppliers dropped such products citing 'lack of demand'. I guess that with better Mono printing from OEM ink sets it's unlikely to become a profitable product line any time soon...

Re: looking at unwanted tints in B/W

2011-01-12 by Paul

"keith" <yg_1@...> wrote:
>
> ...I'm not finding anything available 'ready to go' in the UK.
> 
> I know that two previous suppliers dropped such products citing 'lack of demand'. I guess that with better Mono printing from OEM ink sets it's unlikely to become a profitable product line any time soon...


I think that may be the reality of the market.  When I made UT2 it became MIS's best selling product the first week out.  But there was no serious OEM B&W competition at the time.  With the K3 systems, it's a different world. Most people are going to buy a single printer that can do it all and stop there.  So, the "market" for the ink related things like I do is more like the "alternative process" niche in the wet darkroom B&W end of the field -- rather small, but a lot more fun from my perspective.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Re: looking at unwanted tints in B/W

2011-01-12 by Ernst Dinkla

Op 12-1-2011 19:17, Paul schreef:
> "keith"<yg_1@...>  wrote:
>>
>> ...I'm not finding anything available 'ready to go' in the UK.
>>
>> I know that two previous suppliers dropped such products citing
>> 'lack of demand'. I guess that with better Mono printing from OEM
>> ink sets it's unlikely to become a profitable product line any time
>> soon...
>
>
> I think that may be the reality of the market.  When I made UT2 it
> became MIS's best selling product the first week out.  But there was
> no serious OEM B&W competition at the time.  With the K3 systems,
> it's a different world. Most people are going to buy a single printer
> that can do it all and stop there.  So, the "market" for the ink
> related things like I do is more like the "alternative process" niche
> in the wet darkroom B&W end of the field -- rather small, but a lot
> more fun from my perspective.
>
> Paul www.PaulRoark.com

That change in the market can be an opportunity too, 3 to 4  greys are
everywhere available from the OEM ink distributors. In quantities from
28 to 700 ML. With Paul's recipes for mixing the price can still be
acceptable.

That said Gemini-Colours.com  in the Netherlands shouild distribute
Image Specialists inks and Eboni should be available that way in the EU.
Robert Grafton sometimes wrote in lists like this one.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

[Digital BW] Re: looking at unwanted tints in B/W

2011-01-12 by Paul

Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:

> ... 3 to 4  greys are
> everywhere available from the OEM ink distributors. ...
> With Paul's recipes for mixing the price can still be
> acceptable.

The truth is that even HP PK blended down to LK density is about the same price as MIS bulk LK.

By the way, I received a call from one of the Noritsu distributors I'd purchased from. I was pleased to hear that they had received no communications from Noritsu or Epson regarding selling to none photo finishers.  This distributor sees ink as simply a commodity in a competitive market.  So far, the advanced dye B&W inkset mixing seems to be wide open.  I'll have test samples of that along side samples of the MIS EZ neutral ink I'm working on when it comes time for me to stick them in the fader -- should be an interesting comparison.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Re: looking at unwanted tints in B/W

2011-01-13 by Ernst Dinkla

Op 12-1-2011 21:31, Paul schreef:
   I'll have test samples of that along side samples
> of the MIS EZ neutral ink I'm working on when it comes time for me to
> stick them in the fader -- should be an interesting comparison.
>
> Paul www.PaulRoark.com

Paul, Mark if he is around,

For a week now I try to find some logic in what keeps the paper white of 
some RC papers lasting while other RC papers fail on that in time. 
Aardenburg pages. Low FBA content is a pro but not the only thing. It 
looks like the dye ink compatible papers score nice on this and I wonder 
if that is related to a swellable coating (gelatine, PVA) on top of the 
RC base but a paper of the Ilford Classic category fails as well.

Any thoughts on that?

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

[Digital BW] Re: looking at unwanted tints in B/W

2011-01-13 by Mark

I believe there are several factors that influence OBA burnout and media white point stability. Here are some of the key variables.

1) concentration of OBAs, ie.  how much does the initial media color depend on the incorporated OBAs. If very little, then total burnout produces only slight effect. If a lot, then total burnout produces large effect.

2). Location of OBAs. When located in top microporous coatings, the OBAs are extremely sensitive to oxidation (just like other dyes). The oxidation can be photochemically induced, but even more so due to ozone induced oxidation. The OBA's are more protected when located in subbing layers and paper core.  Many RC papers, for example, have subbing layers below the top ink receptor layer and above the PE/TiO2 layer where the manufacturer can include some OBAs.

3). Molecular structure of the OBA and interaction with the layer(s) in which they are embedded. For example, swellable polymers will indeed protect them more from oxidation, which in part explains why OBAs in traditional darkroom type photo papers have not gotten as bad a reputation (although some problems have been experienced in the field with traditional photo papers as well).

4) As a corrollary to item 3), the pore size of the micro/nano porous silcates used in the inkjet paper probably plays a role as it can also affect the oxygen penetration rates to the OBAs as well as the final physical shape of the OBA molecular chain structure due to electronic charge influences from the silicates distorting the bonds in the dye molecule.

5) Inclusion of additional tinting pigments in the paper size/coatings to achieve cooler media white point thus lessening the need for higher OBA concentrations.  Typically you will see lower L* values for papers that add some cool-white hue with tinting additives, and UV-cut spectral data should still show blue wavelength region effects due to the added colorant.

There's undoubtedly other variables as well, but these are some key variables that affect OBA fading impact on media white point stability.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Op 12-1-2011 21:31, Paul schreef:
>    I'll have test samples of that along side samples
> > of the MIS EZ neutral ink I'm working on when it comes time for me to
> > stick them in the fader -- should be an interesting comparison.
> >
> > Paul www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> Paul, Mark if he is around,
> 
> For a week now I try to find some logic in what keeps the paper white of 
> some RC papers lasting while other RC papers fail on that in time. 
> Aardenburg pages. Low FBA content is a pro but not the only thing. It 
> looks like the dye ink compatible papers score nice on this and I wonder 
> if that is related to a swellable coating (gelatine, PVA) on top of the 
> RC base but a paper of the Ilford Classic category fails as well.
> 
> Any thoughts on that?
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst
> 
> Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
> 
> |      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
> |         www.pigment-print.com        |
> |                 ( unvollendet )                 |
>

Which printer for B&W?

2011-01-13 by schlett istvan

Hi folks,


I am a black and white enthusiast photographer and I would like to buy a printer that produces very good B&W prints. For the start I must say that I am not a professional photographer, I don`t live from photography, its just a hobby. So the idea is that I would use the printer monthly or weekly, it depends of the photos I take. I would like to print A3 format, so for me, the choices are Canon PIXMA 9500 MARK 2, or the Epson R2880. Or HP?

I read several tests and in the most of them, the Canon is considered a better printer. What is your opinion? Also, the Epson is a bit more expensive. 

My questions are the following:

1. Taking in consideration that they work with pigment based ink, will clogging be a real problem? Please note that I tend to use the printers for my best pictures, lets say few times a month (inks is expensive).I found out that the Canon has a clog preventing mechanism, a sort of prin thead cleaning. Is it effective? Does the Epson have something similar? Taking in consideration the worst scenario, how much expensive is the change of the print head for Canon and Epson?

2. The Canon has 10 inks, the Epson has 8. While I am not very interested in the color inks, I discovered that the Canon has 3 black cartriges, while the Epson has 2. (which must be changed manually in the detriment of precious ink. Do you consider that the Epson produces better B&W photo quality?

3. Running costs. I heard that the Epson consumes the the ink more quickly. Is this true? Which of them is more economical. Because I don`t intend to pay for a small fortune, this is a big issue for me. For how much A3 B&W prints shall last the cartridges for the Epson? And for the Canon?

4. I intend to use them with the better quality photo papers, like photo rag. What kind of photo papers do you recommend for them?

Thank you for you for your answers!

István




 



  






      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Re: looking at unwanted tints in B/W

2011-01-13 by Tom Mallonee

My understanding is that it's a white pigment - unless someone knows
differently. 
 
Tom Mallonee
www.ovimaging.com
  

What is the non oba whitening agent that Canson is now using? It certainly
looks good from here without producing metamerism apparently.

john



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?

2011-01-13 by Mark Savoia

This sounds like not too often. Why not just let somebody on the group make you prints when needed, it might save you plenty of time and money.

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Jan 13, 2011, at 3:17 PM, schlett istvan wrote:

> So the idea is that I would use the printer monthly or weekly, it depends of the photos I take.

Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?

2011-01-13 by schlett istvan

Hi Mark,

The idea is that I would like the learn more about digital B&W printing and control myself the whole process. 

--- On Thu, 1/13/11, Mark Savoia <mark@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Mark Savoia <mark@stillrivereditions.com>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 11:29 PM







 



  


    
      
      
      This sounds like not too often. Why not just let somebody on the group make you prints when needed, it might save you plenty of time and money.



Mark

http://www.stillrivereditions.com



On Jan 13, 2011, at 3:17 PM, schlett istvan wrote:



> So the idea is that I would use the printer monthly or weekly, it depends of the photos I take.





    
     

    
    


 



  






      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?

2011-01-13 by Mark Savoia

It sounded like you had concerns about costs. If you do not print very often your printer will not run well, inks expire, head clogs, etc. There is also a learning curve which is not an overnight process.

I did not mean to discourage you, I was just offering my advice. 

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Jan 13, 2011, at 4:33 PM, schlett istvan wrote:

> Hi Mark,
> 
> The idea is that I would like the learn more about digital B&W printing and control myself the whole process. 
> 
> --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Mark Savoia <mark@...> wrote:
> 
> From: Mark Savoia <mark@stillrivereditions.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 11:29 PM
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See „Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines‰ in the Files section:
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> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
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Re: Which printer for B&W?

2011-01-13 by pglombick

Hi Istvan,

You probably don't want to hear this, but to make good prints, it will cost you a small fortune, especially if you consider price-per-print if you print low volume, no matter which printer you buy. If you want to make prints once and while, then perhaps you should consider sending your prints to a commercial lab. That is, unless you want to get into print-making as a hobby. Which is a whole other issue, but I warn you, depsite your best intentions, it will likely cost you a small fortune and a lot of time to make good prints yourself. 

Regards,

Paul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, schlett istvan <istvanschlett@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> Hi folks,
> 
> 
> I am a black and white enthusiast photographer and I would like to buy a printer that produces very good B&W prints. For the start I must say that I am not a professional photographer, I don`t live from photography, its just a hobby. So the idea is that I would use the printer monthly or weekly, it depends of the photos I take. I would like to print A3 format, so for me, the choices are Canon PIXMA 9500 MARK 2, or the Epson R2880. Or HP?
> 
> I read several tests and in the most of them, the Canon is considered a better printer. What is your opinion? Also, the Epson is a bit more expensive. 
> 
> My questions are the following:
> 
> 1. Taking in consideration that they work with pigment based ink, will clogging be a real problem? Please note that I tend to use the printers for my best pictures, lets say few times a month (inks is expensive).I found out that the Canon has a clog preventing mechanism, a sort of prin thead cleaning. Is it effective? Does the Epson have something similar? Taking in consideration the worst scenario, how much expensive is the change of the print head for Canon and Epson?
> 
> 2. The Canon has 10 inks, the Epson has 8. While I am not very interested in the color inks, I discovered that the Canon has 3 black cartriges, while the Epson has 2. (which must be changed manually in the detriment of precious ink. Do you consider that the Epson produces better B&W photo quality?
> 
> 3. Running costs. I heard that the Epson consumes the the ink more quickly. Is this true? Which of them is more economical. Because I don`t intend to pay for a small fortune, this is a big issue for me. For how much A3 B&W prints shall last the cartridges for the Epson? And for the Canon?
> 
> 4. I intend to use them with the better quality photo papers, like photo rag. What kind of photo papers do you recommend for them?
> 
> Thank you for you for your answers!
> 
> István
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>       
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?

2011-01-13 by Mike Finley

If I were doing colour prints, I'd look very closely at the Canon. For 
black and white I'm happy with Epson. The 2880 has three black 
cartridges in use at a time - full black (either for matt paper or for 
for glossy - these are the two which must be swapped) and light black 
and light light black which are used with both types of paper. If you're 
just using one type of paper you won't be swapping the black.

There's lots of information on using Epson printers for monochrome 
printing - more than for other printers. Do a search for Paul Roark (a 
lot of good advice and also a developer of custom monochrome ink sets). 
Also there's an affordable monochrome RIP available for some Epson 
printers (including the R2880) - search for QuadToneRip or Roy Harrington.

Any way of printing your images at low volume will be expensive compared 
with getting it done commercially ... even if you ignore the cost of the 
printer. Quality paper and ink are both expensive in low volumes - 
especially ink!

On 13/01/2011 20:17, schlett istvan wrote:
>
>
>
> 2. The Canon has 10 inks, the Epson has 8. While I am not very 
> interested in the color inks, I discovered that the Canon has 3 black 
> cartriges, while the Epson has 2. (which must be changed manually in 
> the detriment of precious ink. Do you consider that the Epson produces 
> better B&W photo quality?
>

-- 
mike finley photography
fine art photography and website construction
http://mypicks.efikim.co.uk
http://www.mikefinley.co.uk
http://www.roguegenecollective.com/Mike_Finley.html
http://www.efikim.co.uk



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Which printer for B&W?

2011-01-14 by Paul

schlett istvan <istvanschlett@...> wrote:

> I am a black and white enthusiast photographer and I would like to buy a printer that produces very good B&W prints. ...

I recommend you buy an Epson 1400 and use dedicated B&W inksets. 

I discuss my preferred B&W approaches at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/  Jon Cone also has inksets for the 1400.


If the 1400 and third party inks are not an option in your area currently, then I'd still stay with Epson, so that you'll have QTR available and have the option of moving to other inksets. 

The Epson piezo head gives those printers an advantage in the extent to which third parties support them.

I often go more than a week between printing jobs on my 7800, and it does not have to be that much of a problem.  Not all pigment inks clog.  I use Carbon-6 in the 7800 to hold costs down.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?

2011-01-14 by Sylvain

If you do not plan to make colour prints but only fine art BW prints, then the Epson 1400 with a dedicated BW ink set (see Paul Roark's solutions like EB6 ou EB1400) is probably the best solution to learn the real digital BW process and make wonderful prints.
Regarding costs, the 1400 and the kits are very affordable.

Sylvain.

 Le jeu 13/01/11 21:17, schlett istvan istvanschlett@... a écrit:
> 
> Hi folks,
> 
> 
> I am a black and white enthusiast photographer and I would like to buy a
> printer that produces very good B&W prints. For the start I must say that I
> am not a professional photographer, I don`t live from photography, its just
> a hobby. So the idea is that I would use the printer monthly or weekly, it
> depends of the photos I take. I would like to print A3 format, so for me,
> the choices are Canon PIXMA 9500 MARK 2, or the Epson R2880. Or HP?
> I read several tests and in the most of them, the Canon is considered a
> better printer. What is your opinion? Also, the Epson is a bit more
> expensive. 
> My questions are the following:
> 
> 1. Taking in consideration that they work with pigment based ink, will
> clogging be a real problem? Please note that I tend to use the printers for
> my best pictures, lets say few times a month (inks is expensive).I found
> out that the Canon has a clog preventing mechanism, a sort of prin thead
> cleaning. Is it effective? Does the Epson have something similar? Taking in
> consideration the worst scenario, how much expensive is the change of the
> print head for Canon and Epson?
> 2. The Canon has 10 inks, the Epson has 8. While I am not very interested
> in the color inks, I discovered that the Canon has 3 black cartriges, while
> the Epson has 2. (which must be changed manually in the detriment of
> precious ink. Do you consider that the Epson produces better B&W photo
> quality?
> 3. Running costs. I heard that the Epson consumes the the ink more quickly.
> Is this true? Which of them is more economical. Because I don`t intend to
> pay for a small fortune, this is a big issue for me. For how much A3 B&W
> prints shall last the cartridges for the Epson? And for the Canon?
> 4. I intend to use them with the better quality photo papers, like photo
> rag. What kind of photo papers do you recommend for them?
> Thank you for you for your answers!
> 
> István
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files
> section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/file
> s/
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
> “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE 
> “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR
> THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
> GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
> GROUP.
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Re: [Digital BW] Re: looking at unwanted tints in B/W

2011-01-14 by Ernst Dinkla

Op 13-1-2011 21:41, john schreef:
>
> What is the non oba whitening agent that Canson is now using? It certainly looks good from here without producing metamerism apparently.
>
> john
>
>

There are endless varieties of whitening agent mixes and strategies to 
use them and without a really good scientific radiospectrometer around, 
speculation is the only option:

More a mix of several components is my guess, clean cotton fibers, and a 
mix of some TiO2 with more Baryta throughout paper and coating,. little 
addition of calcium carbonate, kaolin, etc whitening agents as they are 
less effective. I do not see the typical drop at the UV side of FBAs or 
TiO2. Moab Entrada Natural is almost alike but shows that little drop of 
TiO2 at the UV end.

Baryta while having better spectral white reflectance than TiO2 is not 
as opaque as TiO2.so if your paper base isn't that white already you 
would use TiO2 to compensate that. Baryta is a better combination with 
FBAs as it is less opaque and doesn't cut UV light. FBAs are used to 
make a cooler paper or as a cheap way to  compensate a cheap, warm paper 
base. EEM for example.

BTW, Epson, Canon, Tecco qualities are added to SpectrumViz. The last 
will be extended (proofing papers mainly) and Red River paper samples 
will arrive soon. I still need more Epson and Canon qualities. An 
interesting Canon RC paper is the Canon Heavyweight Satin Photographic 
Paper 300gsm that scored so good in Aardenburg testing but isn't in my 
collection. Paper white could have been preserved better but it was a 
very good combination with the Lucia pigment inks. HP's Prof Satin is 
then a poor competitor.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

New: Spectral plots of +220 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Which printer for B&W?

2011-01-14 by Steve Woolfenden

I will likely be in a similar situation soonish , but the 1400 just isn't
available here - which of the others will do the best job in A3 for B&W out
the box [getting inks from other side of world to expensive and too much
hassle]? 
Steve
 
schlett istvan <istvanschlett@...> wrote:

> I am a black and white enthusiast photographer and I would like to buy a
printer that produces very good B&W prints. ...

I recommend you buy an Epson 1400 and use dedicated B&W inksets. 

I discuss my preferred B&W approaches at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/
Jon Cone also has inksets for the 1400.

If the 1400 and third party inks are not an option in your area currently,
then I'd still stay with Epson, so that you'll have QTR available and have
the option of moving to other inksets. 

The Epson piezo head gives those printers an advantage in the extent to
which third parties support them.

I often go more than a week between printing jobs on my 7800, and it does
not have to be that much of a problem. Not all pigment inks clog. I use
Carbon-6 in the 7800 to hold costs down.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: looking at unwanted tints in B/W

2011-01-14 by Ernst Dinkla

Op 13-1-2011 16:17, Mark schreef:

> I believe there are several factors that influence OBA burnout and
> media white point stability. Here are some of the key variables.
>
> 1) concentration of OBAs, ie.  how much does the initial media color
> depend on the incorporated OBAs. If very little, then total burnout
> produces only slight effect. If a lot, then total burnout produces
> large effect.
>
> 2). Location of OBAs. When located in top microporous coatings, the
> OBAs are extremely sensitive to oxidation (just like other dyes). The
> oxidation can be photochemically induced, but even more so due to
> ozone induced oxidation. The OBA's are more protected when located in
> subbing layers and paper core.  Many RC papers, for example, have
> subbing layers below the top ink receptor layer and above the PE/TiO2
> layer where the manufacturer can include some OBAs.
>
> 3). Molecular structure of the OBA and interaction with the layer(s)
> in which they are embedded. For example, swellable polymers will
> indeed protect them more from oxidation, which in part explains why
> OBAs in traditional darkroom type photo papers have not gotten as bad
> a reputation (although some problems have been experienced in the
> field with traditional photo papers as well).
>
> 4) As a corrollary to item 3), the pore size of the micro/nano porous
> silcates used in the inkjet paper probably plays a role as it can
> also affect the oxygen penetration rates to the OBAs as well as the
> final physical shape of the OBA molecular chain structure due to
> electronic charge influences from the silicates distorting the bonds
> in the dye molecule.
>
> 5) Inclusion of additional tinting pigments in the paper
> size/coatings to achieve cooler media white point thus lessening the
> need for higher OBA concentrations.  Typically you will see lower L*
> values for papers that add some cool-white hue with tinting
> additives, and UV-cut spectral data should still show blue wavelength
> region effects due to the added colorant.
>
> There's undoubtedly other variables as well, but these are some key
> variables that affect OBA fading impact on media white point
> stability.
>
> cheers, Mark http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

Mark, thank you.

Printed it out  to remind me of all the variables, some I knew, the
other ones about the silicates structure escaped me. For example the HP
Advanced Photo Paper Glossy scored well on keeping its white but has a
micro poreus layer suitable for both dye and pigment inks so I guess
with no additional swellable coating at the top. HP


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

Re: [Digital BW] Re: looking at unwanted tints in B/W

2011-01-14 by Ernst Dinkla

Op 13-1-2011 21:41, john schreef:
>
> What is the non oba whitening agent that Canson is now using? It certainly looks good from here without producing metamerism apparently.
>
> john

What I wrote was based on the Canson Rag Photographique spectral plots. 
There are Canson qualities that resemble spectral plots of other brands 
and not all have that nice white balance CRP has.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?

2011-01-14 by schlett istvan

Hi Mark,

Well that was the idea...Before buying anything, first I was thinking to ask your advices. 

--- On Thu, 1/13/11, Mark Savoia <mark@stillrivereditions.com> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Mark Savoia <mark@...>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 11:39 PM

It sounded like you had concerns about costs. If you do not print very often your printer will not run well, inks expire, head clogs, etc. There is also a learning curve which is not an overnight process.

I did not mean to discourage you, I was just offering my advice. 

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Jan 13, 2011, at 4:33 PM, schlett istvan wrote:

> Hi Mark,
> 
> The idea is that I would like the learn more about digital B&W printing and control myself the whole process. 
> 
> --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Mark Savoia <mark@stillrivereditions.com> wrote:
> 
> From: Mark Savoia <mark@stillrivereditions.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 11:29 PM
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See „Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines‰ in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 



------------------------------------

Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
Yahoo! Groups Links






      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?

2011-01-14 by Sylvain

I started with my Epson 1400+Eb1400 kit as a rookie. Never printed photos, since I was a darkroom guy. It took me a few days to read docs, discuss with Paul to understand the main topics, and then I bought the system. 2 hours after installation the first print went out, and it was already absolutely great.
Regarding printing often or not: I printed last WE for the first time since 2 months: no head clog. I just had to gently shake the cartridges to mix carbon inks. Nothing really hard.

My2c

 Le ven 14/01/11 14:50, schlett istvan istvanschlett@... a écrit:
> Hi Mark,
> 
> Well that was the idea...Before buying anything, first I was thinking to
> ask your advices. 
> --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Mark Savoia <m
> ark@...m> wrote:
> From: Mark Savoia <m
> ark@...>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yah
> oogroups.com
Date: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 11:39 PM
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> It sounded like you had concerns about costs. If you do not print very
> often your printer will not run well, inks expire, head clogs, etc. There
> is also a learning curve which is not an overnight process.
> I did not mean to discourage you, I was just offering my advice. 
> 
> Mark
> http://www.stillrivereditions.com
> On Jan 13, 2011, at 4:33 PM, schlett istvan wrote:
> 
> > Hi Mark,
> > 
> > The idea is that I would like the learn more about
> digital B&W printing and control myself the whole process. 
> 
> > --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Mark Savoia <m
> ark@...> wrote:
> 
> > From: Mark Savoia <m
> ark@...>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for
> B&W?
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yah
> oogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 11:29
> PM
> 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> 
> > 
> >

Re: Which printer for B&W?

2011-01-14 by ben

Istv�n,

Why not one printer for B&W and color?

I have been using an Epson R1800 for several years, for both 3K B&W printing, and color printing.  The only fault is that it needs to be on matte surface papers, unless you want to change ink in the PK and GO channels which is not hard to do.

The problem is finding a good R1800 printer.  They have not been made for five years.  It is the best printer for the 3k printing process because of the very tiny ink drop size.

This printer works extremely well with the Epson Hot Press Papers.  But is limited to only 13 inches wide.

Ben

[Digital BW] Re: looking at unwanted tints in B/W

2011-01-14 by Paul

"Mark" <mark@...> wrote:

> I believe there are several factors that influence OBA burnout ...
> 
> 2)... When located in top microporous coatings, the OBAs are extremely sensitive to oxidation (just like other dyes)...

Mark, do you have any tests or information that indicates whether the use of MIS or other "glop" (glossy optimizer) seals the paper well enough to influence this oxidation rate?

With respect to the sprays there has been some speculation that part of the benefit comes from sealing the micro porous coatings, which presumably slows the oxidation rate.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?

2011-01-14 by schlett istvan

That`s great news. Unfortunately the only Epson option still available for me in the stores is the R2800 or the R1900. 

How big is the ink cartrige? For how many A3 B&W papers will last approximately?  

--- On Fri, 1/14/11, Sylvain <sylvain@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Sylvain <sylvain@grainsdefolie.net>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, January 14, 2011, 4:51 PM







 



  


    
      
      
      I started with my Epson 1400+Eb1400 kit as a rookie. Never printed photos, since I was a darkroom guy. It took me a few days to read docs, discuss with Paul to understand the main topics, and then I bought the system. 2 hours after installation the first print went out, and it was already absolutely great.

Regarding printing often or not: I printed last WE for the first time since 2 months: no head clog. I just had to gently shake the cartridges to mix carbon inks. Nothing really hard.



My2c



Le ven 14/01/11 14:50, schlett istvan istvanschlett@... a écrit:

> Hi Mark,

> 

> Well that was the idea...Before buying anything, first I was thinking to

> ask your advices. 

> --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Mark Savoia <m

> ark@...> wrote:

> From: Mark Savoia <m

> ark@...>

Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?

> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yah

> oogroups.com

Date: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 11:39 PM

> 

> It sounded like you had concerns about costs. If you do not print very

> often your printer will not run well, inks expire, head clogs, etc. There

> is also a learning curve which is not an overnight process.

> I did not mean to discourage you, I was just offering my advice. 

> 

> Mark

> http://www.stillrivereditions.com

> On Jan 13, 2011, at 4:33 PM, schlett istvan wrote:

> 

> > Hi Mark,

> > 

> > The idea is that I would like the learn more about

> digital B&W printing and control myself the whole process. 

> 

> > --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Mark Savoia <m

> ark@...> wrote:

> 

> > From: Mark Savoia <m

> ark@...>

> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for

> B&W?

> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yah

> oogroups.com

> Date: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 11:29

> PM

> 

> > 

> > 

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

> 

> > 

> > 





    
     

    
    


 



  






      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?

2011-01-14 by Brubaker family

Read the articles at Clayton Jones' web site claytonjones.com .  He is very happy with the ABW capability of the more recent Epson pigment printers (which the R2800 supports) and going this way will let you print in both color and B&W with the OEM Epson inks and without switching ink carts.  The only downside I can see is that the ABW prints are most likely less archival than the Eboni 6/Carbon 6 inks on cotton, but this is probably isn't that much of an issue for someone just starting out in B&W printing.
Mike Brubaker 

--- On Fri, 1/14/11, schlett istvan <istvanschlett@yahoo.com> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: schlett istvan <istvanschlett@...>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, January 14, 2011, 2:38 PM















 
 



  


    
      
      
      That`s great news. Unfortunately the only Epson option still available for me in the stores is the R2800 or the R1900. 



How big is the ink cartrige? For how many A3 B&W papers will last approximately?  



--- On Fri, 1/14/11, Sylvain <sylvain@grainsdefolie.net> wrote:



From: Sylvain <sylvain@...>

Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?

To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com

Date: Friday, January 14, 2011, 4:51 PM



 



I started with my Epson 1400+Eb1400 kit as a rookie. Never printed photos, since I was a darkroom guy. It took me a few days to read docs, discuss with Paul to understand the main topics, and then I bought the system. 2 hours after installation the first print went out, and it was already absolutely great.



Regarding printing often or not: I printed last WE for the first time since 2 months: no head clog. I just had to gently shake the cartridges to mix carbon inks. Nothing really hard.



My2c



Le ven 14/01/11 14:50, schlett istvan istvanschlett@... a écrit:



> Hi Mark,



> 



> Well that was the idea...Before buying anything, first I was thinking to



> ask your advices. 



> --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Mark Savoia <m



> ark@...> wrote:



> From: Mark Savoia <m



> ark@...>



Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?



> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yah



> oogroups.com



Date: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 11:39 PM



> 



> It sounded like you had concerns about costs. If you do not print very



> often your printer will not run well, inks expire, head clogs, etc. There



> is also a learning curve which is not an overnight process.



> I did not mean to discourage you, I was just offering my advice. 



> 



> Mark



> http://www.stillrivereditions.com



> On Jan 13, 2011, at 4:33 PM, schlett istvan wrote:



> 



> > Hi Mark,



> > 



> > The idea is that I would like the learn more about



> digital B&W printing and control myself the whole process. 



> 



> > --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Mark Savoia <m



> ark@stillrivereditions.com> wrote:



> 



> > From: Mark Savoia <m



> ark@stillrivereditions.com>



> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for



> B&W?



> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yah



> oogroups.com



> Date: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 11:29



> PM



> 



> > 



> > 



> > [Non-text portions of this message have been



> removed]



> 



> > 



> > 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





    
     

    
    


 



  











      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: looking at unwanted tints in B/W

2011-01-14 by Mark

Paul,

Look at the figure on page 9 in this article on my website (the link is public).

http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/cgi-bin/mrk/_4569ZGxkLzBeMjAwMDAwMDAwMTIzNDU2Nzg5LyoxMzM=

It shows a real world example of the Epson R1800 GLOP in retarding gas fade of the OBAs in an inkjet paper. There are also several side-by-side spray versus uncoated sample test now in progress in the AaI&A database. You can search/sort the coating/laminate column to find some coated samples, then check for corresponding AaI sample numbers that have the same beginning code sequence in order to find the uncoated comparison samples. Also, Batch J that just recently started test,  I believe has some second pass MIS Glop coated samples with some Piezography inks.  May not be on high level OBA media. Hover, some coating tests are already confirming improvements even to the pigmented ink light fastness.  

My general conclusion from all the research I've seen is that unless one laminates or uses very heavy "varnishes" the coating thicknesses are too thin to appreciably block UV. The primary benefit of these thin spray coatings like Premier Print Shield, although often attributed to UV blocking effects, is actually due to the coating's retardation of the oxidation. In other words, sealing the micropores is helping to impede the oxidation effects and those effects can be caused both by gas fading and by light induced photo oxidation reactions. That said, the sealing is far from complete.  Again, the polymer coatings are too thin to be a perfect oxygen barrier.  Considerable permeability remains, yet it is reduced somewhat and thus the testing reveals a lightfastness benefit to many post coatings.

I do have some concerns about the aqueous based acrylic polymer coatings. These formulas typically smell of ammonia to me so the acrylic emulsions aren't just comprised of water and polymer.  I've seen some serious compatibility issues with canvas inkjet materials coated with HVLP spray guns and roller coatings sent to me by conservators, printmakers, etc., who witnessed real failures of these coated inkjet canvases in the field. But it's not a universal problem, so I don't want to leave anyone with the impression the water based varnishes are categorically bad. They often work exceptionally well by imparting decorative properties as well as increased durability, but there's a wildcard in there somewhere.  Much more research is needed with these types of coatings and various inkjet media.

kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> "Mark" <mark@> wrote:
> 
> > I believe there are several factors that influence OBA burnout ...
> > 
> > 2)... When located in top microporous coatings, the OBAs are extremely sensitive to oxidation (just like other dyes)...
> 
> Mark, do you have any tests or information that indicates whether the use of MIS or other "glop" (glossy optimizer) seals the paper well enough to influence this oxidation rate?
> 
> With respect to the sprays there has been some speculation that part of the benefit comes from sealing the micro porous coatings, which presumably slows the oxidation rate.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

[Digital BW] Re: looking at unwanted tints in B/W

2011-01-14 by Mark

Ernst,

Oops, I forgot one variable in my list.  It's a biggie, too. The manufacturers can also add anti-oxidants. In fact anti-oxidant technology was first deployed to solve the early PE cracking issue in RC prints. In the early days, field failures tipped the RC paper manufacturers off to a problem that was caused by the switch to TiO2 whiteners.  When exposed to light TiO2 can generate free radicals that leads to peroxide formation and subsequent embrittlement/cracking of the PE layers (as well as severe silver tarnish in silver gelatin RC B&W prints. Anti-oxidants greatly reduced these problems, and I believe anti oxidants were once again enlisted to help control the ozone attack of the dyes in microporous inkjet papers (recall, the Epson 1270 era "orange fade" problem).

Your spectral plot database is growing!  Very cool.

kind regards,
Mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Op 13-1-2011 16:17, Mark schreef:
> 
> > I believe there are several factors that influence OBA burnout and
> > media white point stability. Here are some of the key variables.
> >
> > 1) concentration of OBAs, ie.  how much does the initial media color
> > depend on the incorporated OBAs. If very little, then total burnout
> > produces only slight effect. If a lot, then total burnout produces
> > large effect.
> >
> > 2). Location of OBAs. When located in top microporous coatings, the
> > OBAs are extremely sensitive to oxidation (just like other dyes). The
> > oxidation can be photochemically induced, but even more so due to
> > ozone induced oxidation. The OBA's are more protected when located in
> > subbing layers and paper core.  Many RC papers, for example, have
> > subbing layers below the top ink receptor layer and above the PE/TiO2
> > layer where the manufacturer can include some OBAs.
> >
> > 3). Molecular structure of the OBA and interaction with the layer(s)
> > in which they are embedded. For example, swellable polymers will
> > indeed protect them more from oxidation, which in part explains why
> > OBAs in traditional darkroom type photo papers have not gotten as bad
> > a reputation (although some problems have been experienced in the
> > field with traditional photo papers as well).
> >
> > 4) As a corrollary to item 3), the pore size of the micro/nano porous
> > silcates used in the inkjet paper probably plays a role as it can
> > also affect the oxygen penetration rates to the OBAs as well as the
> > final physical shape of the OBA molecular chain structure due to
> > electronic charge influences from the silicates distorting the bonds
> > in the dye molecule.
> >
> > 5) Inclusion of additional tinting pigments in the paper
> > size/coatings to achieve cooler media white point thus lessening the
> > need for higher OBA concentrations.  Typically you will see lower L*
> > values for papers that add some cool-white hue with tinting
> > additives, and UV-cut spectral data should still show blue wavelength
> > region effects due to the added colorant.
> >
> > There's undoubtedly other variables as well, but these are some key
> > variables that affect OBA fading impact on media white point
> > stability.
> >
> > cheers, Mark http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
> 
> Mark, thank you.
> 
> Printed it out  to remind me of all the variables, some I knew, the
> other ones about the silicates structure escaped me. For example the HP
> Advanced Photo Paper Glossy scored well on keeping its white but has a
> micro poreus layer suitable for both dye and pigment inks so I guess
> with no additional swellable coating at the top. HP
> 
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst
> 
> Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
> 
> |      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
> |         www.pigment-print.com        |
> |                 ( unvollendet )                 |
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: looking at unwanted tints in B/W

2011-01-15 by Ernst Dinkla

Op 15-1-2011 0:42, Mark schreef:
> Ernst,
>
> Oops, I forgot one variable in my list.  It's a biggie, too. The
> manufacturers can also add anti-oxidants. In fact anti-oxidant
> technology was first deployed to solve the early PE cracking issue in
> RC prints. In the early days, field failures tipped the RC paper
> manufacturers off to a problem that was caused by the switch to TiO2
> whiteners.  When exposed to light TiO2 can generate free radicals
> that leads to peroxide formation and subsequent
> embrittlement/cracking of the PE layers (as well as severe silver
> tarnish in silver gelatin RC B&W prints. Anti-oxidants greatly
> reduced these problems, and I believe anti oxidants were once again
> enlisted to help control the ozone attack of the dyes in microporous
> inkjet papers (recall, the Epson 1270 era "orange fade" problem).
>
> Your spectral plot database is growing!  Very cool.
>
> kind regards, Mark

What I recollect of that problem was a switch to a different structure
of TiO2 rutile>anatase or the other way around.to get better results
with TiO2 whitened polyethylene barriers.. And the addition of extra
plasticisers in the paperbase that could migrate to the barriers in time
to compensate their structural hardening . Anti-oxidants fit in well but
I wonder whether the construction of the paper hasn't changed more
since, the TiO2 whiteners added to the base and the polyethylene (more
complex polymers now) kept transparent.

I am reading again parts of Wilhelm's book  The Permanence .... and it
is fantastic in its totality and detail but gas fading has escaped his
attention more or less. There are tests and results that could be better
explained with gas fading than what was seen as the cause and effect then.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?

2011-01-15 by schlett istvan

I can`t access the site because its password protected...

--- On Fri, 1/14/11, Brubaker family <brubaker_family@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Brubaker family <brubaker_family@...>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, January 14, 2011, 11:25 PM







 



  


    
      
      
      Read the articles at Clayton Jones' web site claytonjones.com . Â He is very happy with the ABW capability of the more recent Epson pigment printers (which the R2800 supports) and going this way will let you print in both color and B&W with the OEM Epson inks and without switching ink carts. Â The only downside I can see is that the ABW prints are most likely less archival than the Eboni 6/Carbon 6 inks on cotton, but this is probably isn't that much of an issue for someone just starting out in B&W printing.

Mike Brubaker 



--- On Fri, 1/14/11, schlett istvan <istvanschlett@...> wrote:



From: schlett istvan <istvanschlett@...>

Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?

To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com

Date: Friday, January 14, 2011, 2:38 PM



 



That`s great news. Unfortunately the only Epson option still available for me in the stores is the R2800 or the R1900. 



How big is the ink cartrige? For how many A3 B&W papers will last approximately?  



--- On Fri, 1/14/11, Sylvain <sylvain@grainsdefolie.net> wrote:



From: Sylvain <sylvain@...>



Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?



To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com



Date: Friday, January 14, 2011, 4:51 PM



 



I started with my Epson 1400+Eb1400 kit as a rookie. Never printed photos, since I was a darkroom guy. It took me a few days to read docs, discuss with Paul to understand the main topics, and then I bought the system. 2 hours after installation the first print went out, and it was already absolutely great.



Regarding printing often or not: I printed last WE for the first time since 2 months: no head clog. I just had to gently shake the cartridges to mix carbon inks. Nothing really hard.



My2c



Le ven 14/01/11 14:50, schlett istvan istvanschlett@... a écrit:



> Hi Mark,



> 



> Well that was the idea...Before buying anything, first I was thinking to



> ask your advices. 



> --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Mark Savoia <m



> ark@stillrivereditions.com> wrote:



> From: Mark Savoia <m



> ark@stillrivereditions.com>



Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?



> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yah



> oogroups.com



Date: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 11:39 PM



> 



> It sounded like you had concerns about costs. If you do not print very



> often your printer will not run well, inks expire, head clogs, etc. There



> is also a learning curve which is not an overnight process.



> I did not mean to discourage you, I was just offering my advice. 



> 



> Mark



> http://www.stillrivereditions.com



> On Jan 13, 2011, at 4:33 PM, schlett istvan wrote:



> 



> > Hi Mark,



> > 



> > The idea is that I would like the learn more about



> digital B&W printing and control myself the whole process. 



> 



> > --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Mark Savoia <m



> ark@...> wrote:



> 



> > From: Mark Savoia <m



> ark@...>



> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for



> B&W?



> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yah



> oogroups.com



> Date: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 11:29



> PM



> 



> > 



> > 



> > [Non-text portions of this message have been



> removed]



> 



> > 



> > 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





    
     

    
    


 



  






      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?

2011-01-15 by Mike Finley

try http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn9.htm and his other articles on 
that site. They're a bit dated now, but those relating to the 2400 are 
probably still relevant for the 2880

On 15/01/2011 11:43, schlett istvan wrote:
>
> I can`t access the site because its password protected...
>
> --- On Fri, 1/14/11, Brubaker family <brubaker_family@... 
> <mailto:brubaker_family%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
> Read the articles at Clayton Jones' web site claytonjones.com . Â He 
> is very happy with the ABW capability of the more recent Epson pigment 
> printers (which the R2800 supports) and going this way will let you 
> print in both color and B&W with the OEM Epson inks and without 
> switching ink carts. Â The only downside I can see is that the ABW 
> prints are most likely less archival than the Eboni 6/Carbon 6 inks on 
> cotton, but this is probably isn't that much of an issue for someone 
> just starting out in B&W printing.
>

-- 
mike finley photography
http://www.mikefinley.co.uk
http://www.roguegenecollective.com/Mike_Finley.html




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?

2011-01-15 by HarryB

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, it was written:
>
>He is very happy with the ABW capability of the more recent Epson >pigment printers 

I'm currently printing B/W on a 3800 and I love it.  Printed remarkably well right out of the box with ABW.  Dunno what the life of the prints is but I'm hoping for 10 years as I'm 80 and that's probably a lifetime for me. <g> 

Harry

Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?

2011-01-15 by Brubaker family

Sorry - I assumed I knew the correct URL from memory, but didn't.  The correct URL is:
www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
Read especially Article 9, but you will enjoy many of the others too.
Mike Brubaker

--- On Sat, 1/15/11, schlett istvan <istvanschlett@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: schlett istvan <istvanschlett@...>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, January 15, 2011, 6:43 AM















 
 



  


    
      
      
      I can`t access the site because its password protected...



--- On Fri, 1/14/11, Brubaker family <brubaker_family@...> wrote:



From: Brubaker family <brubaker_family@...>

Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?

To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com

Date: Friday, January 14, 2011, 11:25 PM



 



Read the articles at Clayton Jones' web site claytonjones.com .  He is very happy with the ABW capability of the more recent Epson pigment printers (which the R2800 supports) and going this way will let you print in both color and B&W with the OEM Epson inks and without switching ink carts.  The only downside I can see is that the ABW prints are most likely less archival than the Eboni 6/Carbon 6 inks on cotton, but this is probably isn't that much of an issue for someone just starting out in B&W printing.



Mike Brubaker 



--- On Fri, 1/14/11, schlett istvan <istvanschlett@...> wrote:



From: schlett istvan <istvanschlett@...>



Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?



To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com



Date: Friday, January 14, 2011, 2:38 PM



 



That`s great news. Unfortunately the only Epson option still available for me in the stores is the R2800 or the R1900. 



How big is the ink cartrige? For how many A3 B&W papers will last approximately?  



--- On Fri, 1/14/11, Sylvain <sylvain@grainsdefolie.net> wrote:



From: Sylvain <sylvain@...>



Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?



To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com



Date: Friday, January 14, 2011, 4:51 PM



 



I started with my Epson 1400+Eb1400 kit as a rookie. Never printed photos, since I was a darkroom guy. It took me a few days to read docs, discuss with Paul to understand the main topics, and then I bought the system. 2 hours after installation the first print went out, and it was already absolutely great.



Regarding printing often or not: I printed last WE for the first time since 2 months: no head clog. I just had to gently shake the cartridges to mix carbon inks. Nothing really hard.



My2c



Le ven 14/01/11 14:50, schlett istvan istvanschlett@... a écrit:



> Hi Mark,



> 



> Well that was the idea...Before buying anything, first I was thinking to



> ask your advices. 



> --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Mark Savoia <m



> ark@...> wrote:



> From: Mark Savoia <m



> ark@...>



Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?



> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yah



> oogroups.com



Date: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 11:39 PM



> 



> It sounded like you had concerns about costs. If you do not print very



> often your printer will not run well, inks expire, head clogs, etc. There



> is also a learning curve which is not an overnight process.



> I did not mean to discourage you, I was just offering my advice. 



> 



> Mark



> http://www.stillrivereditions.com



> On Jan 13, 2011, at 4:33 PM, schlett istvan wrote:



> 



> > Hi Mark,



> > 



> > The idea is that I would like the learn more about



> digital B&W printing and control myself the whole process. 



> 



> > --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Mark Savoia <m



> ark@stillrivereditions.com> wrote:



> 



> > From: Mark Savoia <m



> ark@stillrivereditions.com>



> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for



> B&W?



> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yah



> oogroups.com



> Date: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 11:29



> PM



> 



> > 



> > 



> > [Non-text portions of this message have been



> removed]



> 



> > 



> > 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





    
     

    
    


 



  











      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?

2011-01-16 by schlett istvan

Thanks!

--- On Sun, 1/16/11, Brubaker family <brubaker_family@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Brubaker family <brubaker_family@...>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, January 16, 2011, 12:12 AM







 



  


    
      
      
      Sorry - I assumed I knew the correct URL from memory, but didn't. Â The correct URL is:

www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Read especially Article 9, but you will enjoy many of the others too.

Mike Brubaker



--- On Sat, 1/15/11, schlett istvan <istvanschlett@...> wrote:



From: schlett istvan <istvanschlett@...>

Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?

To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com

Date: Saturday, January 15, 2011, 6:43 AM



 



I can`t access the site because its password protected...



--- On Fri, 1/14/11, Brubaker family <brubaker_family@...> wrote:



From: Brubaker family <brubaker_family@...>



Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?



To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com



Date: Friday, January 14, 2011, 11:25 PM



 



Read the articles at Clayton Jones' web site claytonjones.com .  He is very happy with the ABW capability of the more recent Epson pigment printers (which the R2800 supports) and going this way will let you print in both color and B&W with the OEM Epson inks and without switching ink carts.  The only downside I can see is that the ABW prints are most likely less archival than the Eboni 6/Carbon 6 inks on cotton, but this is probably isn't that much of an issue for someone just starting out in B&W printing.



Mike Brubaker 



--- On Fri, 1/14/11, schlett istvan <istvanschlett@...> wrote:



From: schlett istvan <istvanschlett@...>



Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?



To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com



Date: Friday, January 14, 2011, 2:38 PM



 



That`s great news. Unfortunately the only Epson option still available for me in the stores is the R2800 or the R1900. 



How big is the ink cartrige? For how many A3 B&W papers will last approximately?  



--- On Fri, 1/14/11, Sylvain <sylvain@grainsdefolie.net> wrote:



From: Sylvain <sylvain@...>



Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?



To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com



Date: Friday, January 14, 2011, 4:51 PM



 



I started with my Epson 1400+Eb1400 kit as a rookie. Never printed photos, since I was a darkroom guy. It took me a few days to read docs, discuss with Paul to understand the main topics, and then I bought the system. 2 hours after installation the first print went out, and it was already absolutely great.



Regarding printing often or not: I printed last WE for the first time since 2 months: no head clog. I just had to gently shake the cartridges to mix carbon inks. Nothing really hard.



My2c



Le ven 14/01/11 14:50, schlett istvan istvanschlett@yahoo.com a écrit:



> Hi Mark,



> 



> Well that was the idea...Before buying anything, first I was thinking to



> ask your advices. 



> --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Mark Savoia <m



> ark@...> wrote:



> From: Mark Savoia <m



> ark@...>



Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?



> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yah



> oogroups.com



Date: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 11:39 PM



> 



> It sounded like you had concerns about costs. If you do not print very



> often your printer will not run well, inks expire, head clogs, etc. There



> is also a learning curve which is not an overnight process.



> I did not mean to discourage you, I was just offering my advice. 



> 



> Mark



> http://www.stillrivereditions.com



> On Jan 13, 2011, at 4:33 PM, schlett istvan wrote:



> 



> > Hi Mark,



> > 



> > The idea is that I would like the learn more about



> digital B&W printing and control myself the whole process. 



> 



> > --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Mark Savoia <m



> ark@stillrivereditions.com> wrote:



> 



> > From: Mark Savoia <m



> ark@stillrivereditions.com>



> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for



> B&W?



> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yah



> oogroups.com



> Date: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 11:29



> PM



> 



> > 



> > 



> > [Non-text portions of this message have been



> removed]



> 



> > 



> > 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





    
     

    
    


 



  






      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?

2011-01-16 by Mike Johnston

You can still buy a 1400 from Epson.

Mike Johnston

 

 

  _____
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of schlett
istvan
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 12:38 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?

 

  

That`s great news. Unfortunately the only Epson option still available for
me in the stores is the R2800 or the R1900. 

How big is the ink cartrige? For how many A3 B&W papers will last
approximately?  

--- On Fri, 1/14/11, Sylvain <sylvain@grainsdefolie.net
<mailto:sylvain%40grainsdefolie.net> > wrote:

From: Sylvain <sylvain@...
<mailto:sylvain%40grainsdefolie.net> >
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com> 
Date: Friday, January 14, 2011, 4:51 PM

 

I started with my Epson 1400+Eb1400 kit as a rookie. Never printed photos,
since I was a darkroom guy. It took me a few days to read docs, discuss with
Paul to understand the main topics, and then I bought the system. 2 hours
after installation the first print went out, and it was already absolutely
great.

Regarding printing often or not: I printed last WE for the first time since
2 months: no head clog. I just had to gently shake the cartridges to mix
carbon inks. Nothing really hard.

My2c

Le ven 14/01/11 14:50, schlett istvan istvanschlett@...
<mailto:istvanschlett%40yahoo.com>  a écrit:

> Hi Mark,

> 

> Well that was the idea...Before buying anything, first I was thinking to

> ask your advices. 

> --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Mark Savoia <m

> ark@stillrivereditions.com <mailto:ark%40stillrivereditions.com> > wrote:

> From: Mark Savoia <m

> ark@... <mailto:ark%40stillrivereditions.com> >

Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?

> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yah

> oogroups.com

Date: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 11:39 PM

> 

> It sounded like you had concerns about costs. If you do not print very

> often your printer will not run well, inks expire, head clogs, etc. There

> is also a learning curve which is not an overnight process.

> I did not mean to discourage you, I was just offering my advice. 

> 

> Mark

> http://www.stillrivereditions.com

> On Jan 13, 2011, at 4:33 PM, schlett istvan wrote:

> 

> > Hi Mark,

> > 

> > The idea is that I would like the learn more about

> digital B&W printing and control myself the whole process. 

> 

> > --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Mark Savoia <m

> ark@stillrivereditions.com <mailto:ark%40stillrivereditions.com> > wrote:

> 

> > From: Mark Savoia <m

> ark@... <mailto:ark%40stillrivereditions.com> >

> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for

> B&W?

> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yah

> oogroups.com

> Date: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 11:29

> PM






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?

2011-01-16 by Sam McCandless

On Jan 16, 2011, at 9:15 AM, Mike Johnston wrote:

> You can still buy a 1400 from Epson.
>
> Mike Johnston
>
>
>
>
>
>  _____
>
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of  
> schlett
> istvan
> Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 12:38 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?
>
>
>
>
>
> That`s great news. Unfortunately the only Epson option still  
> available for
> me in the stores is the R2800 or the R1900.
>
> How big is the ink cartrige? For how many A3 B&W papers will last
> approximately?
>
> --- On Fri, 1/14/11, Sylvain <sylvain@...
> <mailto:sylvain%40grainsdefolie.net> > wrote:
>
> From: Sylvain <sylvain@...
> <mailto:sylvain%40grainsdefolie.net> >
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Friday, January 14, 2011, 4:51 PM
>
>
>
> I started with my Epson 1400+Eb1400 kit as a rookie. Never printed  
> photos,
> since I was a darkroom guy. It took me a few days to read docs,  
> discuss with
> Paul to understand the main topics, and then I bought the system. 2  
> hours
> after installation the first print went out, and it was already  
> absolutely
> great.
>
> Regarding printing often or not: I printed last WE for the first  
> time since
> 2 months: no head clog. I just had to gently shake the cartridges to  
> mix
> carbon inks. Nothing really hard.
>
> My2c
>
> Le ven 14/01/11 14:50, schlett istvan istvanschlett@...
> <mailto:istvanschlett%40yahoo.com>  a écrit:
>
>> Hi Mark,
>
>>
>
>> Well that was the idea...Before buying anything, first I was  
>> thinking to
>
>> ask your advices.
>
>> --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Mark Savoia <m
>
>> ark@... <mailto:ark%40stillrivereditions.com> >  
>> wrote:
>
>> From: Mark Savoia <m
>
>> ark@... <mailto:ark%40stillrivereditions.com> >
>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?
>
>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yah
>
>> oogroups.com
>
> Date: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 11:39 PM
>
>>
>
>> It sounded like you had concerns about costs. If you do not print  
>> very
>
>> often your printer will not run well, inks expire, head clogs, etc.  
>> There
>
>> is also a learning curve which is not an overnight process.
>
>> I did not mean to discourage you, I was just offering my advice.
>
>>
>
>> Mark
>
>> http://www.stillrivereditions.com
>
>> On Jan 13, 2011, at 4:33 PM, schlett istvan wrote:
>
>>
>
>>> Hi Mark,
>
>>>
>
>>> The idea is that I would like the learn more about
>
>> digital B&W printing and control myself the whole process.
>
>>
>
>>> --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Mark Savoia <m
>
>> ark@...m <mailto:ark%40stillrivereditions.com> >  
>> wrote:
>
>>
>
>>> From: Mark Savoia <m
>
>> ark@... <mailto:ark%40stillrivereditions.com> >
>
>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for
>
>> B&W?
>
>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yah
>
>> oogroups.com
>
>> Date: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 11:29
>
>> PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
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> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH  
> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE  
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR  
> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR  
> CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP;  
> OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO  
> GROUP.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?

2011-01-16 by photoarts@rocketmail.com

I have a question about the Epson 1400 with the eboni pigment ink. Does this combination offer B&W of more quality that other more professional printers like the Epson r2880 or Epson 3880?

On the other hand, has the Epson 1400 many head clogs with this pigment ink?

Kind regards

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Sam McCandless <samcc@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> On Jan 16, 2011, at 9:15 AM, Mike Johnston wrote:
> 
> > You can still buy a 1400 from Epson.
> >
> > Mike Johnston
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  _____
> >
> > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of  
> > schlett
> > istvan
> > Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 12:38 PM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > That`s great news. Unfortunately the only Epson option still  
> > available for
> > me in the stores is the R2800 or the R1900.
> >
> > How big is the ink cartrige? For how many A3 B&W papers will last
> > approximately?
> >
> > --- On Fri, 1/14/11, Sylvain <sylvain@...
> > <mailto:sylvain%40grainsdefolie.net> > wrote:
> >
> > From: Sylvain <sylvain@...
> > <mailto:sylvain%40grainsdefolie.net> >
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Friday, January 14, 2011, 4:51 PM
> >
> >
> >
> > I started with my Epson 1400+Eb1400 kit as a rookie. Never printed  
> > photos,
> > since I was a darkroom guy. It took me a few days to read docs,  
> > discuss with
> > Paul to understand the main topics, and then I bought the system. 2  
> > hours
> > after installation the first print went out, and it was already  
> > absolutely
> > great.
> >
> > Regarding printing often or not: I printed last WE for the first  
> > time since
> > 2 months: no head clog. I just had to gently shake the cartridges to  
> > mix
> > carbon inks. Nothing really hard.
> >
> > My2c
> >
> > Le ven 14/01/11 14:50, schlett istvan istvanschlett@...
> > <mailto:istvanschlett%40yahoo.com>  a écrit:
> >
> >> Hi Mark,
> >
> >>
> >
> >> Well that was the idea...Before buying anything, first I was  
> >> thinking to
> >
> >> ask your advices.
> >
> >> --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Mark Savoia <m
> >
> >> ark@... <mailto:ark%40stillrivereditions.com> >  
> >> wrote:
> >
> >> From: Mark Savoia <m
> >
> >> ark@... <mailto:ark%40stillrivereditions.com> >
> >
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?
> >
> >> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yah
> >
> >> oogroups.com
> >
> > Date: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 11:39 PM
> >
> >>
> >
> >> It sounded like you had concerns about costs. If you do not print  
> >> very
> >
> >> often your printer will not run well, inks expire, head clogs, etc.  
> >> There
> >
> >> is also a learning curve which is not an overnight process.
> >
> >> I did not mean to discourage you, I was just offering my advice.
> >
> >>
> >
> >> Mark
> >
> >> http://www.stillrivereditions.com
> >
> >> On Jan 13, 2011, at 4:33 PM, schlett istvan wrote:
> >
> >>
> >
> >>> Hi Mark,
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> The idea is that I would like the learn more about
> >
> >> digital B&W printing and control myself the whole process.
> >
> >>
> >
> >>> --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Mark Savoia <m
> >
> >> ark@... <mailto:ark%40stillrivereditions.com> >  
> >> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >
> >>> From: Mark Savoia <m
> >
> >> ark@... <mailto:ark%40stillrivereditions.com> >
> >
> >> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for
> >
> >> B&W?
> >
> >> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yah
> >
> >> oogroups.com
> >
> >> Date: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 11:29
> >
> >> PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> > resources as they are often being updated.
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
> > to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting  
> > this same page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
> > to keep them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> > flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
> > from the membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> > B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> > removed from the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and  
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group  
> > Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the  
> > Files section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> >
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> > PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE  
> > "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL  
> > NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> > CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,  
> > DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE  
> > LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE  
> > PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH  
> > DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE  
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR  
> > ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR  
> > CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP;  
> > OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO  
> > GROUP.
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?

2011-01-16 by edward wiseman

I have NEVER had a clog with this Epson 1400  printer using MIS B&W pigs that couldn't be cleared with just one or two cleaning cycles.. It's very trouble-free! My print quality has been excellent utilizing UT-14 inks and Paul Roark's curves....It's kind of a "no-brainer" IMHO..

Eddie
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: photoarts@... 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2011 2:36 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?


    
  I have a question about the Epson 1400 with the eboni pigment ink. Does this combination offer B&W of more quality that other more professional printers like the Epson r2880 or Epson 3880?

  On the other hand, has the Epson 1400 many head clogs with this pigment ink?

  Kind regards

  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Sam McCandless <samcc@...> wrote:
  >
  > 
  > On Jan 16, 2011, at 9:15 AM, Mike Johnston wrote:
  > 
  > > You can still buy a 1400 from Epson.
  > >
  > > Mike Johnston
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > _____
  > >
  > > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m
  > > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
  > > schlett
  > > istvan
  > > Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 12:38 PM
  > > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > That`s great news. Unfortunately the only Epson option still 
  > > available for
  > > me in the stores is the R2800 or the R1900.
  > >
  > > How big is the ink cartrige? For how many A3 B&W papers will last
  > > approximately?
  > >
  > > --- On Fri, 1/14/11, Sylvain <sylvain@...
  > > <mailto:sylvain%40grainsdefolie.net> > wrote:
  > >
  > > From: Sylvain <sylvain@...
  > > <mailto:sylvain%40grainsdefolie.net> >
  > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?
  > > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  > > <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
  > > Date: Friday, January 14, 2011, 4:51 PM
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > I started with my Epson 1400+Eb1400 kit as a rookie. Never printed 
  > > photos,
  > > since I was a darkroom guy. It took me a few days to read docs, 
  > > discuss with
  > > Paul to understand the main topics, and then I bought the system. 2 
  > > hours
  > > after installation the first print went out, and it was already 
  > > absolutely
  > > great.
  > >
  > > Regarding printing often or not: I printed last WE for the first 
  > > time since
  > > 2 months: no head clog. I just had to gently shake the cartridges to 
  > > mix
  > > carbon inks. Nothing really hard.
  > >
  > > My2c
  > >
  > > Le ven 14/01/11 14:50, schlett istvan istvanschlett@...
  > > <mailto:istvanschlett%40yahoo.com> a écrit:
  > >
  > >> Hi Mark,
  > >
  > >>
  > >
  > >> Well that was the idea...Before buying anything, first I was 
  > >> thinking to
  > >
  > >> ask your advices.
  > >
  > >> --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Mark Savoia <m
  > >
  > >> ark@... <mailto:ark%40stillrivereditions.com> > 
  > >> wrote:
  > >
  > >> From: Mark Savoia <m
  > >
  > >> ark@... <mailto:ark%40stillrivereditions.com> >
  > >
  > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for B&W?
  > >
  > >> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yah
  > >
  > >> oogroups.com
  > >
  > > Date: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 11:39 PM
  > >
  > >>
  > >
  > >> It sounded like you had concerns about costs. If you do not print 
  > >> very
  > >
  > >> often your printer will not run well, inks expire, head clogs, etc. 
  > >> There
  > >
  > >> is also a learning curve which is not an overnight process.
  > >
  > >> I did not mean to discourage you, I was just offering my advice.
  > >
  > >>
  > >
  > >> Mark
  > >
  > >> http://www.stillrivereditions.com
  > >
  > >> On Jan 13, 2011, at 4:33 PM, schlett istvan wrote:
  > >
  > >>
  > >
  > >>> Hi Mark,
  > >
  > >>>
  > >
  > >>> The idea is that I would like the learn more about
  > >
  > >> digital B&W printing and control myself the whole process.
  > >
  > >>
  > >
  > >>> --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Mark Savoia <m
  > >
  > >> ark@... <mailto:ark%40stillrivereditions.com> > 
  > >> wrote:
  > >
  > >>
  > >
  > >>> From: Mark Savoia <m
  > >
  > >> ark@... <mailto:ark%40stillrivereditions.com> >
  > >
  > >> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which printer for
  > >
  > >> B&W?
  > >
  > >> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yah
  > >
  > >> oogroups.com
  > >
  > >> Date: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 11:29
  > >
  > >> PM
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > ------------------------------------
  > >
  > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
  > > resources as they are often being updated.
  > >
  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
  > >
  > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
  > > to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
  > > this same page.
  > >
  > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
  > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
  > > to keep them short.
  > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
  > > flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed 
  > > from the membership without notice.
  > > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
  > > B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
  > > removed from the membership.
  > > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
  > > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
  > > Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the 
  > > Files section:
  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
  > >
  > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
  > > PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE 
  > > "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL 
  > > NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
  > > CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
  > > DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
  > > LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE 
  > > PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH 
  > > DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE 
  > > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR 
  > > ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR 
  > > CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; 
  > > OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO 
  > > GROUP.
  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  >



  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Which printer for B&W?

2011-01-17 by Paul

"photoarts@..." <photoarts@...> wrote:
>
> I have a question about the Epson 1400 with the eboni pigment ink. Does this combination offer B&W of more quality that other more professional printers like the Epson r2880 or Epson 3880?


If by "Eboni" you mean a single black only channel, then it would  not be as smooth as the full 2880 or 3880 prints at their best quality, particularly if there were areas of smooth sky. Even the 1.5 picoliter drop of  the 1400 is not up to the best image quality if only one channel is used.  Small small, high contrast, or other types  of  images  may hide the quality limitations  of the  single channel  black only printing, however.

If by "Eboni" you mean the full Eboni-6 inkset, or even the Eboni-4 that I use in the 1400 (using the 2 other positions for a neutral glossy ink like the Noritsu-Epson advanced dyes), then I'd say the Eboni-based inks are smoother.

In any case, the Eboni inks will be more lightfast, with no differential fading or color shifts and no metamerism.  The Eboni inks will  also be much less expensive.  Of course, the Eboni inks will not print on glossy paper and the tones will be limited since the Eboni inks are 100% carbon.

So, the issue depends on what Eboni approach you're thinking of and how you define "quality."  I think Eboni/Carbon-6 (or even 4 channels) gives me better quality that can be obtained with Epson inks when my target is a fine art display print.

Eboni almost never clogs in the 1400. The 1400 is the best printer in that regard I've ever had, and dilute eboni is the best ink in that regard that I've ever used in any printer (though I have high hopes for the Noritsu-Epson dyes with regard to clogging also -- we'll see).

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

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