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Thread
2011-02-09 by Lew
Has anyone actually experienced this? It seems to me that once the backup is burned without error, there are far fewer problems than the pundits have led us to believe. No one, on another forum, can report any failures at all regardless of the age of the media. Lew
2011-02-09 by ann clancy
I have had both fail over time. Also, since i keep 4 backup copies and external harddrives are so much cheaper these days and faster , I have stopped using them. Best practices calls for the 1-2-3 rule. three copies , two different types of media and one off site. I do keep a copy off site but no longer on a cd/dvd. Ann --- On Wed, 2/9/11, Lew <lew1716@...> wrote:
From: Lew <lew1716@...>
Subject: [Digital BW] CD/DVD failure?
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 9, 2011, 5:07 PM
Has anyone actually experienced this? It seems to me that once the backup is burned without error, there are far fewer problems than the pundits have led us to believe. No one, on another forum, can report any failures at all regardless of the age of the media.
Lew
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2011-02-09 by Patrick Carr
Yes I have. I started getting unreadable CDs from another photographer in town--they were five to six years old. He had hundreds of these backup disks and when he checked, many of those were unreadable as well. He had difficulty explaining the loss to his clients. I suggest hard drives. I have four backup drives in my studio and each backs up to another every hour. Has been working well for several years. -Patrick Carr Carr Imaging On 2/9/2011 3:07 PM, Lew wrote: > > Has anyone actually experienced this? It seems to me that once the > backup is burned without error, there are far fewer problems than the > pundits have led us to believe. No one, on another forum, can report > any failures at all regardless of the age of the media. > Lew > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2011-02-09 by Mike Finley
I had failures after a few years on CD and I think also on DVDs I no longer trust them and have transferred all onto removable hard disks. On 09/02/2011 22:07, Lew wrote: > > Has anyone actually experienced this? It seems to me that once the > backup is burned without error, there are far fewer problems than the > pundits have led us to believe. No one, on another forum, can report > any failures at all regardless of the age of the media. > Lew > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3432 - Release Date: 02/09/11 07:34:00 > -- mike finley photography fine art photography and website construction http://mypicks.efikim.co.uk http://www.mikefinley.co.uk http://www.roguegenecollective.com/Mike_Finley.html http://www.efikim.co.uk [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2011-02-10 by mrjimbo
Lew , I read your first post (backing up on line) and let it go even though I have opinions on it...not this one.. Constructively, for anyone to say that they haven't had any CD /DVD issues means .. They haven't really checked, they haven't been doing it long enough or they don't have enough of them..... no offense to anyone.. First CD's and DVD's aren't all created equally. Second the hardware is changing specs all the time.. We had a rude awakening here and it cost us dearly.. So yup you can back up data on them but will it still be there in 10 years.. You'll loose a % of it and that's what happens.. It's a cheap way out for a back up but it's not intended for mission critical backups.. The media is devoid of any forms of guarantees .. So it's your risk.. jimbo
----- Original Message -----
From: Lew
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 3:07 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] CD/DVD failure?
Has anyone actually experienced this? It seems to me that once the backup is burned without error, there are far fewer problems than the pundits have led us to believe. No one, on another forum, can report any failures at all regardless of the age of the media.
Lew
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2011-02-10 by Richard Smallfield
I've had CD/DVD failures, too. But I've also had hard drive failures that have combined with the failure of the backup program and resulted in unrecoverable data loss. I use Mirror Folder for backing up (it's rather complex) and twice I've had unreadable data on the source disc - and then found that the mirror disc has also lost not just the corrupted data, but folders of tens of GBs of data, for no apparent reason. (It was set to backup any deleted files and keep the backups for two weeks but is now set to keep such files for three months, as I now know that I might not see an error within two weeks. And I'm no longer letting it delete unmatched files.) So ... although hard drives are easier and cheaper, even with hard drives, one has to be very careful about the ramifications of the options chosen in the backup software, and have more than one backup copy. And check the program is working as intended, regularly - something it is easy to fail to find time to do. Any further suggestions would be appreciated from me, too. thanks, Richard Richard Smallfield Photography http://richardsmallfield.com
2011-02-10 by E.Neilsen
As we a mass even more digital data, the chances get greater that we'll have an issue at some point. Markers are a source of problems for CD and DVDs. Out gassing of the sleeve. bad disk. Who's running the show? the computer guys or the artist? Yes it's a PIA. Do you really have time to open all those backed up folders just to check it? Do you trust the back up program? How many people make a mirror back up and then don't use it to make sure it worked? Eric Neilsen Eric Neilsen Photography 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 Dallas, TX 75226 www.ericneilsenphotography.com skype me with ejprinter www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1 Let's Talk Photography _____
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard Smallfield Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 6:52 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Digital BW] CD/DVD failure? I've had CD/DVD failures, too. But I've also had hard drive failures that have combined with the failure of the backup program and resulted in unrecoverable data loss. I use Mirror Folder for backing up (it's rather complex) and twice I've had unreadable data on the source disc - and then found that the mirror disc has also lost not just the corrupted data, but folders of tens of GBs of data, for no apparent reason. (It was set to backup any deleted files and keep the backups for two weeks but is now set to keep such files for three months, as I now know that I might not see an error within two weeks. And I'm no longer letting it delete unmatched files.) So ... although hard drives are easier and cheaper, even with hard drives, one has to be very careful about the ramifications of the options chosen in the backup software, and have more than one backup copy. And check the program is working as intended, regularly - something it is easy to fail to find time to do. Any further suggestions would be appreciated from me, too. thanks, Richard Richard Smallfield Photography [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2011-02-10 by mrjimbo
Your issue with Mirror data is sad buy it's what occasionally happens with a software back up system.. Windows has the gift of getting drive assigments screwed up occasionally ..their are just to many possible issues with a software back up system.. Windows back up actually works pretty well especially if you figure out a good back up scheme.. I have never been able to make it a full year without some sort of issue.. You need to monitor the stuff and if you don't you get what you get.. I struggled for a long time on what I should do.. I used to work at an engineering firm and also checked out what they do at banks and ended up doing a very small partial scale set up of what they do.. SO far it has worked but nothing is flawless and I know that. We run both Mac and PC platforms here.... along with doing my own work were a service house as many here are. We have found that hardware raid systems seem to work the best.. You can get as involved in this as you want or your pocket book will allow. All of the hardware we use now it hot swap.. and on the weekends we mirror/ update the data to an added drive and that set of drives is kept off site.. We also put master files on flash drives monthly and their off site also. I think what I feel is the advantage to this methind as I see it is that if I have any issues with writing or mirroring data the hardware reacts to that issue and lets you know .. Even if tey computer is off.. AS long as teh rai unit is on it will react.. So you have to deal with it.. I also like that it is not subject to OS issues.. If the hardware side of it falters you can put the drives in another unit and move on.. The down side is that when you loose a drive while your still operatrional it like watching paint try rebuilding an array that contains 1.5 or 2 TB drives, but you can still keep working but the caution flag is up.. Nothing is perfect.. Everyone has differnet needs and different amounts of money they can throw at it. I guess the important thing is to do it and then follow up as needed to make sure that what have going is indeed doing the job. jimbo
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Smallfield
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] CD/DVD failure?
I've had CD/DVD failures, too. But I've also had hard drive failures that have combined with the failure of the backup program and resulted in unrecoverable data loss.
I use Mirror Folder for backing up (it's rather complex) and twice I've had unreadable data on the source disc - and then found that the mirror disc has also lost not just the corrupted data, but folders of tens of GBs of data, for no apparent reason. (It was set to backup any deleted files and keep the backups for two weeks but is now set to keep such files for three months, as I now know that I might not see an error within two weeks. And I'm no longer letting it delete unmatched files.)
So ... although hard drives are easier and cheaper, even with hard drives, one has to be very careful about the ramifications of the options chosen in the backup software, and have more than one backup copy. And check the program is working as intended, regularly - something it is easy to fail to find time to do.
Any further suggestions would be appreciated from me, too.
thanks,
Richard
Richard Smallfield Photography
http://richardsmallfield.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2011-02-10 by rick.b
The media is the answer. (nod to that 60's canadian guy) TAPE is the storage media for 50+ years, with evidence from the world. There are digital tape files that are 50+. Other thoughts: on-line, may not last since ONLINE is a company and you are just a customer bound by their terms which may mean you can't transfer the contents (even upon your death). This paper indicates that the longest term storage media is "paper" http://media.longnow.org/files/2/very_long_term_backup.pdf richard. tejas ----------------------remember---------------------------- things like gravitational acceleration cannot be adjusted in the real world no matter what the math looks like. --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "E.Neilsen" <e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
> > As we a mass even more digital data, the chances get greater that we'll have > an issue at some point. Markers are a source of problems for CD and DVDs. > Out gassing of the sleeve. bad disk. > > > > Who's running the show? the computer guys or the artist? Yes it's a PIA. Do > you really have time to open all those backed up folders just to check it? > Do you trust the back up program? How many people make a mirror back up and > then don't use it to make sure it worked? > > > > > > > > Eric Neilsen > > Eric Neilsen Photography > > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 > > Dallas, TX 75226 > > > > www.ericneilsenphotography.com > > skype me with ejprinter > > www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1 > > Let's Talk Photography > > > > _____ > > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m] On Behalf Of Richard > Smallfield > Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 6:52 PM > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] CD/DVD failure? > > > > > > I've had CD/DVD failures, too. But I've also had hard drive failures that > have combined with the failure of the backup program and resulted in > unrecoverable data loss. > > I use Mirror Folder for backing up (it's rather complex) and twice I've had > unreadable data on the source disc - and then found that the mirror disc has > also lost not just the corrupted data, but folders of tens of GBs of data, > for no apparent reason. (It was set to backup any deleted files and keep the > backups for two weeks but is now set to keep such files for three months, as > I now know that I might not see an error within two weeks. And I'm no longer > letting it delete unmatched files.) > > So ... although hard drives are easier and cheaper, even with hard drives, > one has to be very careful about the ramifications of the options chosen in > the backup software, and have more than one backup copy. And check the > program is working as intended, regularly - something it is easy to fail to > find time to do. > > Any further suggestions would be appreciated from me, too. > > thanks, > Richard > > Richard Smallfield Photography > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >
2011-02-10 by Jeff
I use both DVD (now Blu-ray) and hard drive backup. I also backup between two of my systems so I have four online copies and an occassional blu-ray. The easiest to use program for Windows is free. Microsoft has something called SyncToy http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/en/details.aspx?familyid=C26EFA36-98E0-4EE9-A7C5-98D0592D8C52&displaylang=en#Top I use the Echo policy (changes made on my working disk are reflected on the backup copy but not the other way around). There are many other options. I have tasks scheduled every night on each machine. Doing it this way means I don't have to worry about proprietary backup formats and my external drives are readable anywhere. Technically I also have an extra copy since my working drive is a RAID1 set, but I won't be doing that much longer. For DVD I use whatever came with my drive (currently Cyberlink but I've used Nero as well). I get a little under 25GB on a drive and it was surprisingly fast. Then I store those disks offsite (currently in my car). I think about offline storage but even as an amateur I have over 500GB between video and photo. As was pointed out hard drives can and will fail with alarming frequency, even a drive sitting around unplugged. I guess I should try reading my old DVDs while I can still make a copy. --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "E.Neilsen" <e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
> > As we a mass even more digital data, the chances get greater that we'll have > an issue at some point. Markers are a source of problems for CD and DVDs. > Out gassing of the sleeve. bad disk. > > > > Who's running the show? the computer guys or the artist? Yes it's a PIA. Do > you really have time to open all those backed up folders just to check it? > Do you trust the back up program? How many people make a mirror back up and > then don't use it to make sure it worked? > > > > > > > > Eric Neilsen > > Eric Neilsen Photography > > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 > > Dallas, TX 75226 > > > > www.ericneilsenphotography.com > > skype me with ejprinter > > www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1 > > Let's Talk Photography > > > > _____ > > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard > Smallfield > Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 6:52 PM > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] CD/DVD failure? > > > > > > I've had CD/DVD failures, too. But I've also had hard drive failures that > have combined with the failure of the backup program and resulted in > unrecoverable data loss. > > I use Mirror Folder for backing up (it's rather complex) and twice I've had > unreadable data on the source disc - and then found that the mirror disc has > also lost not just the corrupted data, but folders of tens of GBs of data, > for no apparent reason. (It was set to backup any deleted files and keep the > backups for two weeks but is now set to keep such files for three months, as > I now know that I might not see an error within two weeks. And I'm no longer > letting it delete unmatched files.) > > So ... although hard drives are easier and cheaper, even with hard drives, > one has to be very careful about the ramifications of the options chosen in > the backup software, and have more than one backup copy. And check the > program is working as intended, regularly - something it is easy to fail to > find time to do. > > Any further suggestions would be appreciated from me, too. > > thanks, > Richard > > Richard Smallfield Photography > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >
2011-02-10 by ben
This was a topic I looked into years ago. Then, I learned that all CDs were not equal. That the gold CDs were better in archiving data. But it has become hard to find the gold ones. I also learned that it is better to write a CD slowly. That fast writing does not make as good an image on the CD which fading will ruin quicker. That slow writing will make a more distinctive image, and be read longer. I also learned not to write on a CD! At least on the silvered, or gold part. That most pens have ink that can damage the image on the CD. There is only a thin layer of lacquer protecting the silver or gold on the CD. That lacquer can be damaged by the pens ink. I only write on the hub, clear part, of the CD. I also sleeve, or case all my CDs and DVDs. I am also careful to handle them only by the edges, or center, never touching the image area. I too keep the CDs, and DVDs in a cool dry, dark place. CDs are written by light, so why couldn't they be damaged by light? Common sense? I just dug out some CDs written in 2003 to reprint some images. Even though these were on silver CDs, I had no problem reading them. I have recently opened CDs I wrote in the 1990s and they worked. Are you that had CD failures taking these precautions? Ben
2011-02-10 by Lew
What's "paper"? Lew
-----Original Message----- From: "rick.b" <ric_kb@...> Sender: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 14:44:21 To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Digital BW] CD/DVD failure? The media is the answer. (nod to that 60's canadian guy) TAPE is the storage media for 50+ years, with evidence from the world. There are digital tape files that are 50+. Other thoughts: on-line, may not last since ONLINE is a company and you are just a customer bound by their terms which may mean you can't transfer the contents (even upon your death). This paper indicates that the longest term storage media is "paper" http://media.longnow.org/files/2/very_long_term_backup.pdf richard. tejas ----------------------remember---------------------------- things like gravitational acceleration cannot be adjusted in the real world no matter what the math looks like. --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "E.Neilsen" <e.neilsen2@...> wrote: > > As we a mass even more digital data, the chances get greater that we'll have > an issue at some point. Markers are a source of problems for CD and DVDs. > Out gassing of the sleeve. bad disk. > > > > Who's running the show? the computer guys or the artist? Yes it's a PIA. Do > you really have time to open all those backed up folders just to check it? > Do you trust the back up program? How many people make a mirror back up and > then don't use it to make sure it worked? > > > > > > > > Eric Neilsen > > Eric Neilsen Photography > > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 > > Dallas, TX 75226 > > > > www.ericneilsenphotography.com > > skype me with ejprinter > > www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1 > > Let's Talk Photography > > > >_____ > > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard > Smallfield > Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 6:52 PM > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] CD/DVD failure? > > > > > > I've had CD/DVD failures, too. But I've also had hard drive failures that > have combined with the failure of the backup program and resulted in > unrecoverable data loss. > > I use Mirror Folder for backing up (it's rather complex) and twice I've had > unreadable data on the source disc - and then found that the mirror disc has > also lost not just the corrupted data, but folders of tens of GBs of data, > for no apparent reason. (It was set to backup any deleted files and keep the > backups for two weeks but is now set to keep such files for three months, as > I now know that I might not see an error within two weeks. And I'm no longer > letting it delete unmatched files.) > > So ... although hard drives are easier and cheaper, even with hard drives, > one has to be very careful about the ramifications of the options chosen in > the backup software, and have more than one backup copy. And check the > program is working as intended, regularly - something it is easy to fail to > find time to do. > > Any further suggestions would be appreciated from me, too. > > thanks, > Richard > > Richard Smallfield Photography > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2011-02-10 by Paul
Glad to hear you mention gold CD's, but I haven't had trouble locating them. I got them on-line, sorry I don't have that source handy right now. I also use gold DVD's for backing up valuable videotapes. When I submitted photos to the National Register, they specify they want the files on a gold CD. All that said, I'm sure they're not perfect either. Another issue is how long will we have CD drives around? I had some valuable files on a 5 1/4" floppy and had trouble finding someone with a working drive. Now it's my understanding computers don't come with 3 1/2" drives and not even CD drives. Are solid drives the next wave? By that I mean large capacity flash drives... seems I've heard that somewhere. But even then, what new format files will be on the horizon... something other than jpg or even tiff? As the line from "Fiddler on the Roof" goes, "asking questions that would cross a rabbi's eyes"! On the other hand I have some valuable family photos on box camera negatives, from 620 or even 116 film. And I can still use them by scanning them... I should think some way to read physical negatives will always be around. Paul --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ben" <benjschneider2@...> wrote:
> > > This was a topic I looked into years ago. Then, I learned that all CDs were not equal. That the gold CDs were better in archiving data. But it has become hard to find the gold ones. > > I also learned that it is better to write a CD slowly. That fast writing does not make as good an image on the CD which fading will ruin quicker. That slow writing will make a more distinctive image, and be read longer. > > I also learned not to write on a CD! At least on the silvered, or gold part. That most pens have ink that can damage the image on the CD. There is only a thin layer of lacquer protecting the silver or gold on the CD. That lacquer can be damaged by the pens ink. I only write on the hub, clear part, of the CD. > > I also sleeve, or case all my CDs and DVDs. I am also careful to handle them only by the edges, or center, never touching the image area. > > I too keep the CDs, and DVDs in a cool dry, dark place. CDs are written by light, so why couldn't they be damaged by light? Common sense? > > I just dug out some CDs written in 2003 to reprint some images. Even though these were on silver CDs, I had no problem reading them. I have recently opened CDs I wrote in the 1990s and they worked. Are you that had CD failures taking these precautions? > > Ben >
2011-02-10 by edward wiseman
Hi.. The "master source" for the gold CD's/DVD's is MAMA, which stands for MITSUI AMERICA..I've been using their products for years w/o any problems..They have a couple of distributors in the USA..Do a GOOGLE, and you find them.. Eddie
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2011 12:27 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: CD/DVD failure?
Glad to hear you mention gold CD's, but I haven't had trouble locating them. I got them on-line, sorry I don't have that source handy right now. I also use gold DVD's for backing up valuable videotapes.
When I submitted photos to the National Register, they specify they want the files on a gold CD.
All that said, I'm sure they're not perfect either. Another issue is how long will we have CD drives around? I had some valuable files on a 5 1/4" floppy and had trouble finding someone with a working drive. Now it's my understanding computers don't come with 3 1/2" drives and not even CD drives.
Are solid drives the next wave? By that I mean large capacity flash drives... seems I've heard that somewhere. But even then, what new format files will be on the horizon... something other than jpg or even tiff?
As the line from "Fiddler on the Roof" goes, "asking questions that would cross a rabbi's eyes"!
On the other hand I have some valuable family photos on box camera negatives, from 620 or even 116 film. And I can still use them by scanning them... I should think some way to read physical negatives will always be around.
Paul
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ben" <benjschneider2@...> wrote:
>
>
> This was a topic I looked into years ago. Then, I learned that all CDs were not equal. That the gold CDs were better in archiving data. But it has become hard to find the gold ones.
>
> I also learned that it is better to write a CD slowly. That fast writing does not make as good an image on the CD which fading will ruin quicker. That slow writing will make a more distinctive image, and be read longer.
>
> I also learned not to write on a CD! At least on the silvered, or gold part. That most pens have ink that can damage the image on the CD. There is only a thin layer of lacquer protecting the silver or gold on the CD. That lacquer can be damaged by the pens ink. I only write on the hub, clear part, of the CD.
>
> I also sleeve, or case all my CDs and DVDs. I am also careful to handle them only by the edges, or center, never touching the image area.
>
> I too keep the CDs, and DVDs in a cool dry, dark place. CDs are written by light, so why couldn't they be damaged by light? Common sense?
>
> I just dug out some CDs written in 2003 to reprint some images. Even though these were on silver CDs, I had no problem reading them. I have recently opened CDs I wrote in the 1990s and they worked. Are you that had CD failures taking these precautions?
>
> Ben
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2011-02-10 by Paul
Yes, thank you, Eddie... that's it, that's the brand. Couldn't think of it right off hand! Paul --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "edward wiseman" <pahts@...> wrote:
> > Hi.. > > The "master source" for the gold CD's/DVD's is MAMA, which stands for MITSUI AMERICA..I've been using their products for years w/o any problems..They have a couple of distributors in the USA..Do a GOOGLE, and you find them.. > > Eddie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Paul > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2011 12:27 PM > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: CD/DVD failure? > > > > > > Glad to hear you mention gold CD's, but I haven't had trouble locating them. I got them on-line, sorry I don't have that source handy right now. I also use gold DVD's for backing up valuable videotapes. > > When I submitted photos to the National Register, they specify they want the files on a gold CD. > > All that said, I'm sure they're not perfect either. Another issue is how long will we have CD drives around? I had some valuable files on a 5 1/4" floppy and had trouble finding someone with a working drive. Now it's my understanding computers don't come with 3 1/2" drives and not even CD drives. > > Are solid drives the next wave? By that I mean large capacity flash drives... seems I've heard that somewhere. But even then, what new format files will be on the horizon... something other than jpg or even tiff? > > As the line from "Fiddler on the Roof" goes, "asking questions that would cross a rabbi's eyes"! > > On the other hand I have some valuable family photos on box camera negatives, from 620 or even 116 film. And I can still use them by scanning them... I should think some way to read physical negatives will always be around. > > Paul > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ben" <benjschneider2@> wrote: > > > > > > This was a topic I looked into years ago. Then, I learned that all CDs were not equal. That the gold CDs were better in archiving data. But it has become hard to find the gold ones. > > > > I also learned that it is better to write a CD slowly. That fast writing does not make as good an image on the CD which fading will ruin quicker. That slow writing will make a more distinctive image, and be read longer. > > > > I also learned not to write on a CD! At least on the silvered, or gold part. That most pens have ink that can damage the image on the CD. There is only a thin layer of lacquer protecting the silver or gold on the CD. That lacquer can be damaged by the pens ink. I only write on the hub, clear part, of the CD. > > > > I also sleeve, or case all my CDs and DVDs. I am also careful to handle them only by the edges, or center, never touching the image area. > > > > I too keep the CDs, and DVDs in a cool dry, dark place. CDs are written by light, so why couldn't they be damaged by light? Common sense? > > > > I just dug out some CDs written in 2003 to reprint some images. Even though these were on silver CDs, I had no problem reading them. I have recently opened CDs I wrote in the 1990s and they worked. Are you that had CD failures taking these precautions? > > > > Ben > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >
2011-02-10 by Dick Rawson
Sure have. I, also, have switched to hard drives for data archives. So far, the hard-drive vendors have kept up with my photo library. All I have still fits on a single drive; now, that's a 2 TB (2000 GB, nominal) drive. I simply buy a new external (or internal) drive, copy everything to it, and store it somewhere. When I've bought photographic services that delivered files, I copied the files to an online drive, and they also are archived in due course. I have not reused the older drives, so by now I have many copies of everything. One external hard drive did fail; it wasn't holding backups - it was my main library disk. A recovery service couldn't salvage anything (and so they charged nothing). Now I put my eggs in more baskets. An external drive comes formatted (in most cases - pay attention if you care), but may have idiosyncratic software included, weighs more, and is bulkier to store. I bought an external docking station for SATA hard drives, and have started buying an internal SATA drive for each archive. I now need to store only the bare drive each cycle. The big downside is that my PC spends hours formatting the drive before I can start backups (which take over a day). Separate from the above stuff, I have a backup program that automatically backs up files shortly after they have changed. It writes to another external disk. (At the moment, that's a Buffalo TerraStation storage server, but when it fails, I'll replace it with a plain external USB-connected hard drive.) Dick --- "Lew" <lew1716@...> wrote: > > Has anyone actually experienced this?
2011-02-10 by ben
Another practice I have been doing over the last ten years, is to start new file hard drives for each year. I never use large ones; the all the eggs in one basket scenario, but use smaller ones. I am now using 500gb drives. Five years ago they were only 160 or 120gb drives. What I do is to install a new drive in the internal drive dock on my G5 at the end of the year. The removed old drive is put in an external housing, and label it for that year. I also format the new drives naming them for the year which they will be used. I have three work stations; one for the studio, one for my graphics, and one for my field work. So the new studio drive is labeled Studio 2011 for this year. I will hook the last years drive to the computer because the work will overlap. But drives going back two years are mothballed in plastic tupper ware type containers, and not used unless the files are needed. Often used files are copied to the new drives for convince. That also make for multiple backups of important files. The mothballed drives are kept in a dark, cool storage unit. I never write files to the drive where my aps are. I never use a computer with important files on it, on the internet. I lost the neutral leg of my three phase electrical service last year. My line voltage went up to 148 volts. I lost five hard drives, plus lots of other equipment because of the electric company's mistake. So sh*t happens, and through no fault of your own, hard drives can be killed. I was lucky that I was able to retrieve most all of my important files, and smart not to have all my file drives hooked up the the electrical system. Having files in many places, on smaller drives saved most of my important files. Hard drives have a service life as well. Any dive in use over three years is on borrowed time. By taking them offline in two years, I increase their lives, and cut the chance of them failing. About not having a CD or DVD player in the future. Keep a good quality spare on hand for that future need. I have a Sony external player with USB and FireWire interface in storage, Just in case I may need it some day. I also have floppy drives, M/O, and Syquest drives in storage. Remember Syquest. The final line is, all files die with time. The amount of time varies depending on the type of media. I had to reprint a negative from 1972 last month. The 4x5 color negative was store in a dark, cool filing cabinet, and it was a real b*tch to scan. The dies had faded just enough to make a color cross over problem; Green/magenta! Tape has a problem where the magnetic data on one layer, transfers to the layer above and below it. Then sometimes the data layer comes unglued from the base. Even wire recorders have this transfer problem. Black and white negatives are subject to air pollution contamination. In the end, if you lose a file through no fault of your own, and have taken the precautions to preserve it, known at that time, go on making new images. Too often we put too much value in old work. The new work should be what is important to us.
2011-02-10 by jacquescrn
If your using hard drives as backups (like I do plus gold cd's) don't forget that they have to be turned on, let's say each six months at least. I've had hard drives that would not spin back after a long "non-working" gap. I think that there is a probability of some gripping in the drives motor... so get them rolling once in a while. --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ben" <benjschneider2@...> wrote:
> > Another practice I have been doing over the last ten years, is to start new file hard drives for each year. I never use large ones; the all the eggs in one basket scenario, but use smaller ones. I am now using 500gb drives. Five years ago they were only 160 or 120gb drives. > > What I do is to install a new drive in the internal drive dock on my G5 at the end of the year. The removed old drive is put in an external housing, and label it for that year. I also format the new drives naming them for the year which they will be used. I have three work stations; one for the studio, one for my graphics, and one for my field work. So the new studio drive is labeled Studio 2011 for this year. > > I will hook the last years drive to the computer because the work will overlap. But drives going back two years are mothballed in plastic tupper ware type containers, and not used unless the files are needed. Often used files are copied to the new drives for convince. That also make for multiple backups of important files. The mothballed drives are kept in a dark, cool storage unit. > > I never write files to the drive where my aps are. I never use a computer with important files on it, on the internet. > > I lost the neutral leg of my three phase electrical service last year. My line voltage went up to 148 volts. I lost five hard drives, plus lots of other equipment because of the electric company's mistake. So sh*t happens, and through no fault of your own, hard drives can be killed. I was lucky that I was able to retrieve most all of my important files, and smart not to have all my file drives hooked up the the electrical system. > > Having files in many places, on smaller drives saved most of my important files. > > Hard drives have a service life as well. Any dive in use over three years is on borrowed time. By taking them offline in two years, I increase their lives, and cut the chance of them failing. > > About not having a CD or DVD player in the future. Keep a good quality spare on hand for that future need. I have a Sony external player with USB and FireWire interface in storage, Just in case I may need it some day. I also have floppy drives, M/O, and Syquest drives in storage. Remember Syquest. > > The final line is, all files die with time. The amount of time varies depending on the type of media. I had to reprint a negative from 1972 last month. The 4x5 color negative was store in a dark, cool filing cabinet, and it was a real b*tch to scan. The dies had faded just enough to make a color cross over problem; Green/magenta! Tape has a problem where the magnetic data on one layer, transfers to the layer above and below it. Then sometimes the data layer comes unglued from the base. Even wire recorders have this transfer problem. Black and white negatives are subject to air pollution contamination. > > In the end, if you lose a file through no fault of your own, and have taken the precautions to preserve it, known at that time, go on making new images. Too often we put too much value in old work. The new work should be what is important to us. >
2011-02-11 by Brubaker family
The most permanent CD/DVDs are "gold" and use a special long lasting dye (I can't remember the chemical name right now). All CD/DVDs have a dye layer which is what the laser "burns." The usually gold or silver layer you see is a protective coating on the dye layer, and gold (real gold) is the best and expensive, but provides the best protection for the dye layer. So the longest lasting CD/DVDs have a best dye layer and a best protective layer. The long discontinued Kodak gold CD-Rs were some of the best and much sought after and expensive. inljetart.com used to carry CD/DVDs similar to the Kodak ones, but a quick look at their web site doesn't show them any more. I had some music CD-Rs I burned on cheap disks and within a year they were junk with the sound all garbled. Fortunately I stocked up on 50 of the Inkjet Art CD-Rs to use instead! --- On Wed, 2/9/11, Patrick Carr <patcarr@...> wrote:
From: Patrick Carr <patcarr@...>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] CD/DVD failure?
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 9, 2011, 6:09 PM
Yes I have. I started getting unreadable CDs from another photographer
in town--they were five to six years old. He had hundreds of these
backup disks and when he checked, many of those were unreadable as well.
He had difficulty explaining the loss to his clients.
I suggest hard drives. I have four backup drives in my studio and each
backs up to another every hour. Has been working well for several years.
-Patrick Carr
Carr Imaging
On 2/9/2011 3:07 PM, Lew wrote:
>
> Has anyone actually experienced this? It seems to me that once the
> backup is burned without error, there are far fewer problems than the
> pundits have led us to believe. No one, on another forum, can report
> any failures at all regardless of the age of the media.
> Lew
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2011-02-11 by jacquescrn
Actually there is still the Delkin products; they are making CD's and DVD's with gold and a special anti-scratch armour that must be of some help. I bought a lot of those and they are readable up to know (some of them are more than 5 years old) Good luck --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Brubaker family <brubaker_family@...> wrote:
> > The most permanent CD/DVDs are "gold" and use a special long lasting dye (I can't remember the chemical name right now). Â All CD/DVDs have a dye layer which is what the laser "burns." Â The usually gold or silver layer you see is a protective coating on the dye layer, and gold (real gold) is the best and expensive, but provides the best protection for the dye layer. Â So the longest lasting CD/DVDs have a best dye layer and a best protective layer. Â The long discontinued Kodak gold CD-Rs were some of the best and much sought after and expensive. Â inljetart.com used to carry CD/DVDs similar to the Kodak ones, but a quick look at their web site doesn't show them any more. Â I had some music CD-Rs I burned on cheap disks and within a year they were junk with the sound all garbled. Fortunately I stocked up on 50 of the Inkjet Art CD-Rs to use instead! > > --- On Wed, 2/9/11, Patrick Carr <patcarr@...> wrote: > > From: Patrick Carr <patcarr@...> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] CD/DVD failure? > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, February 9, 2011, 6:09 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â > > > > > > > > > > Yes I have. I started getting unreadable CDs from another photographer > > in town--they were five to six years old. He had hundreds of these > > backup disks and when he checked, many of those were unreadable as well. > > He had difficulty explaining the loss to his clients. > > > > I suggest hard drives. I have four backup drives in my studio and each > > backs up to another every hour. Has been working well for several years. > > > > -Patrick Carr > > > > Carr Imaging > > > > On 2/9/2011 3:07 PM, Lew wrote: > > > > > > Has anyone actually experienced this? It seems to me that once the > > > backup is burned without error, there are far fewer problems than the > > > pundits have led us to believe. No one, on another forum, can report > > > any failures at all regardless of the age of the media. > > > Lew > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >
2011-02-11 by Barrett Benton
From a freelance IT tech's perspective: - Hard disks simply don't last as long as they used to. This may be a byproduct of both vastly-increased capacity of current HDs combined with their commodity status, where one can buy a 1TB internal HD for under $100, and the fact that profit margins on HDs are nowhere near what they once were (the "real" money is in SSDs now). CDs and DVDs, in fact, *aren't* all the same. I've settled on using Verbatim DataLife Plus CD-R/DVD-R media, which hasn't failed me yet after years of disk burning. - Barrett
2011-02-11 by mrjimbo
Barrett, That is very true about the drives today.. I have attempted to do a fair amount of homework in these areas as for me I've chosen to use hard drives as my back up choice.. but in reality it goes deeper then that. Here we have chosen to go with Seagate drives.. I'm not suggesting that they are the best drives but for me they have worked out to be a partner.. We are still using SCSI , a little IDE but mostly SATA these days.. We have a lot of them.. The fact is the new larger content drives do represent more wear and tear on a drive also .. If we look at how we are with data today versus say 5 years ago it's very different. Many are literally adding GB's of info on a monthly basis.. plus we're accessing it much more.. Seagate has reduced their warranty period from the previous 5 years to what it is now. Drives are just getting used more.. They were never designed to be permanent.. they have always been an expendable item. On the plus side they are incredibly inexpensive today so storage cost is literally peanuts as far as I'm concerned. The key is that we just have to be responsible and realize that these things are subject to failure.. It's not about if their going to fail it's about when.. How many here have a 3 year old computer that is still very active and have not replaced the drive just because they should do that.. Not many I'll bet. Today we should think different, it's time to get over the new infatuation with the computer and start getting that it's merely a tool and it's wears out so some level of maintainence is necessary. Most or many computers today can be ordered with a built in raid and dual drives mirrored.. It'll cost about 200 extra but that is an incredible start on the right path to a viable future in data redundancy.. I have a small slick little oh God I'm going to say the bad word... "HP" media center ( I'm not an HP fan) At any rate this thing has been a disaster with video cards but it still going and doing a job.. It has mirrored drives.. about three weeks after it's third birth day.. the little RAID cop inside informed me that I'd lost a drive.. So I ripped it apart and replaced the bad drive.. By the next day the canary was singing.. I have a new second drive in standby now but will wait until the traffic cop says to switch it... Constructively, that process just seems to work. What's more it makes sense.. jimbo
----- Original Message -----
From: Barrett Benton
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 1:06 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: CD/DVD failure?
From a freelance IT tech's perspective:
- Hard disks simply don't last as long as they used to. This may be a
byproduct of both vastly-increased capacity of current HDs combined
with their commodity status, where one can buy a 1TB internal HD for
under $100, and the fact that profit margins on HDs are nowhere near
what they once were (the "real" money is in SSDs now).
CDs and DVDs, in fact, *aren't* all the same. I've settled on using
Verbatim DataLife Plus CD-R/DVD-R media, which hasn't failed me yet
after years of disk burning.
- Barrett
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2011-02-11 by arlenelove3@aol.com
I'm storing my images on archival gold discs - (supposedly good for 300
years) and also on hard drives. The old slides are useless, even though they
were kept in archival hanging slide pages. The colors have gone weird, and
they need a lot of cleaning up.
As I scan and repair each group of slides and store them on discs and hd,
the slides go right in the trash can. I think it's all a craps shoot -
except for paper.
Arlene
Arlene Love
arlenelove3@...
_www.arlenelove.com_ (http://www.arlenelove.com/)
Tel: 215 923 2363
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2011-02-11 by mrjimbo
Arlene, Wow.. That's a pretty hard line approach.. I'm not suggesting that you stop what your doing but I would just like to toss a few considerations out there for you to just look at. I do a fair amount of work for museums and I have been exposed at one time or other to pretty much everything. Anyway first things first.. the slides that you haven't scanned yet.. If their in slide pages that are exposed to light as in a note book that out.. change that to dark storage.. Also some of the slide pages were done with not appropriate materials .. and they outgas ..right on your film.. Might be worth checking out. I have been shooting slides and film for over 40 years and it's always been kept in a dry dark room in the basement.. I have in excess of 300k slides and even the old kodachrome still looks fairly good all things considered. As far as cd's or DVD's lasting 300 years and our being able to count on that.. simply put "when pigs fly" I say.. Someone needs to prove it.. and they can't. Further , by then the technology will be obsolete. As far as the slides your pitching.. Digital technology is still changing so fast it's scary.. I have software today that does an incredible job restoring old faded and screwed up images.. five years ago this stuff was just not available.. What I'm trying to say is that as time goes on more software with much improved analytical ability will be developed.. So what we have today is not as far as we can go.. So possibly just hanging on to those slides, at least the cream of them, might not be a bad way to go. Just store them differently. Note all the old black and white movies that have been colorized.. They looked exactly like they were hand painted or something back when.. The ones done in the past year actually are pretty awesome.. Technology is still moving pretty fast.. Anyway just thoughts.. jimbo
----- Original Message -----
From: arlenelove3@...
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 10:41 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: CD/DVD failure?
I'm storing my images on archival gold discs - (supposedly good for 300
years) and also on hard drives. The old slides are useless, even though they
were kept in archival hanging slide pages. The colors have gone weird, and
they need a lot of cleaning up.
As I scan and repair each group of slides and store them on discs and hd,
the slides go right in the trash can. I think it's all a craps shoot -
except for paper.
Arlene
Arlene Love
arlenelove3@...
_www.arlenelove.com_ (http://www.arlenelove.com/)
Tel: 215 923 2363
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2011-02-12 by Mark
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, arlenelove3@... wrote: > > I'm storing my images on archival gold discs - (supposedly good for 300 > years) and also on hard drives. The old slides are useless, even though they > were kept in archival hanging slide pages. The colors have gone weird, and > they need a lot of cleaning up. > As I scan and repair each group of slides and store them on discs and hd, > the slides go right in the trash can. I think it's all a craps shoot - > except for paper. > Arlene > Don't throw the originals out. Keep them and freeze them! Better technologies will extract more information from them as time goes by. To stop film degradation in it's tracks, you need to freeze the slides or negatives. Although it takes some thoughtful effort, it's not as hard as it sounds. Check out the freezer storage kit available from Hollinger Metal Edge corporation: http://www.hollingermetaledge.com/modules/store/index.html?dept=21&cat=48&search\ name=freezer&searchid=&searchtype=C&cart=1297475351689658 And an article on cold storage packaging of film at: http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/cgi-bin/mrk/_4261ZGxkLzBeMTAwMDAwMDAwMTIzNDU2N\ zg5LyoyMg== The point is that you can keep original films in a state of "suspended animation" and digitize with superior results as new methods become available for better and better results. kind regards, Mark http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
2011-02-12 by Mark Savoia
The Walt Disney method? He can keep on eye on them. Mark http://www.stillrivereditions.com
On Feb 11, 2011, at 9:03 PM, Mark wrote: > Don't throw the originals out. Keep them and freeze them! Better technologies > will extract more information from them as time goes by. To stop film > degradation in it's tracks, you need to freeze the slides or negatives. Although > it takes some thoughtful effort, it's not as hard as it sounds. Check out the > freezer storage kit available from Hollinger Metal Edge corporation: > http://www.hollingermetaledge.com/modules/store/index.html?dept=21&cat=48&search\ > name=freezer&searchid=&searchtype=C&cart=1297475351689658 > > And an article on cold storage packaging of film at: > > http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/cgi-bin/mrk/_4261ZGxkLzBeMTAwMDAwMDAwMTIzNDU2N\ > zg5LyoyMg== > > The point is that you can keep original films in a state of "suspended > animation" and digitize with superior results as new methods become available > for better and better results. > > kind regards, > Mark > http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
2011-02-12 by mrgs1001
CD/DVD care, handling and storage guide from Institute of Standards and Technology: http://ow.ly/3VbgR CD/DVD's are not used for storage by back up companies because they fade over time due to oxidation. You can slow the process down with proper care, and some types will last longer than others, but you can't stop the process any more than you can stop a photograph from fading. Tape and Hard drives are used because magnetic storage media last much longer. You still have to be concerned about mechanical failure which is why a backup company will use RAID. Cheers, Mark http://www.framedestination.com/ --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Lew" <lew1716@...> wrote:
> > Has anyone actually experienced this? It seems to me that once the backup is burned without error, there are far fewer problems than the pundits have led us to believe. No one, on another forum, can report any failures at all regardless of the age of the media. > Lew >
2011-02-12 by kwalsh74
I haven't because I've refused to use them for any long term data retention. I know they are a disaster waiting to happen for that application. My wife has directly experienced this, to great loss. She and a collaborator did an expensive observing run in Chile. Bandwidth was low from the observatory, so they used DVD media to bring it home. They burned two separate DVDs and checked both copies were functional. Some of the data was copied over back at home for analysis, the rest of the observing run left on the disk and put on the shelf. About six months later they wanted to reduce the rest of the data. Gone, from both DVDs. Sent out to expensive recovery services. No luck, the dye had faded. They had to re-observe those targets the following year, and time on telescopes of this size is rare and difficult to get. The largest problem with CD/DVD and image files is that it is a pain to migrate the data. Digital data that you care about should be migrated and refreshed every few years. With hard drives this takes a few minutes, unattended. With disks you have to slowly migrate them all. As others pointed out, there is media which *should* be better. But only if your drive burns the CD/DVD properly. The integrity of the data is based not just on the material of the disk and the dye, but also on the dye being properly exposed and fixed by the drive. Take a 300 yr disk and put in a drive not functioning properly and you'll get a disk that will fade in just a few months. How will you know? You won't, until you go back for your data and it is gone. Multiple copies, multiple locations, migrated with reasonable frequency. CD/DVD is just a poor format for implementing that... Ken
2011-02-12 by jacquescrn
I don't know exactly with what kind of burner your wife did the DVD's but... with an exoensive trip like the one she had, I would go for CD first. Gold Archival ones. Even with a slow bandwith, she should have tried to do the backups so to preserve the images. Second I would not rely only on CD's or DVD's alone (you're right, sometimes they fade - but gold ones do better); better still, never leave home without some external devices - be it a computer, USB keys or portable hard disks. I've beeen taking pictures for thirty years now (digital and non-digital - scanned ones too) and, crossing my fingers, never had a problem. One copy on regular DVD for cheap back-up, gold CD's (DVD's are a bit too soft) and most importantly on external hard drives (firing them up once a month to keep them in shape and be assured that they still hold the data). My collection of CD's, DVD's is still readable; when new ways of doing secure backups arrive, I will be transferring everything. --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "kwalsh74" <kwalsh74@...> wrote:
> > > I haven't because I've refused to use them for any long term data retention. I know they are a disaster waiting to happen for that application. > > My wife has directly experienced this, to great loss. She and a collaborator did an expensive observing run in Chile. Bandwidth was low from the observatory, so they used DVD media to bring it home. They burned two separate DVDs and checked both copies were functional. Some of the data was copied over back at home for analysis, the rest of the observing run left on the disk and put on the shelf. About six months later they wanted to reduce the rest of the data. Gone, from both DVDs. Sent out to expensive recovery services. No luck, the dye had faded. They had to re-observe those targets the following year, and time on telescopes of this size is rare and difficult to get. > > The largest problem with CD/DVD and image files is that it is a pain to migrate the data. Digital data that you care about should be migrated and refreshed every few years. With hard drives this takes a few minutes, unattended. With disks you have to slowly migrate them all. > > As others pointed out, there is media which *should* be better. But only if your drive burns the CD/DVD properly. The integrity of the data is based not just on the material of the disk and the dye, but also on the dye being properly exposed and fixed by the drive. Take a 300 yr disk and put in a drive not functioning properly and you'll get a disk that will fade in just a few months. How will you know? You won't, until you go back for your data and it is gone. > > Multiple copies, multiple locations, migrated with reasonable frequency. CD/DVD is just a poor format for implementing that... > > Ken >