Digital BW, The Print

A friend was admiring some of my BO prints at a show and asked how he could get started. I'm using an R1800 with the 3MK approach, but of course that printer is no longer available. I'm leaning toward suggesting he get a 1400. (Refurbs are now at the Epson site for $179, seems a pretty decent deal.) He wants to do BO printing and I think Paul Roark says that only one cart with Eboni is enough, that it does as well as the R1800 with three carts filled with Eboni. 

My friend also wants to do color. My question is can he fill the K slot with an Eboni inked cart and leave it there while doing color? Would he then be limited to matt paper? Or should he swap back in the OEM black cart, especially if he wants glossy color? And since Eboni is a pigment ink, would it be compatible with the OEM color inks, which I think are Claria, a dye ink?

And if he's doing BO printing, would he have to use QTR? Are there QTR profiles available for that?

Many questions!

TIA,

Paul

"Paul" <paulmwhiting@...> wrote:
>
> A friend was admiring some of my BO prints at a show and asked how he could get started. I'm using an R1800 with the 3MK approach, but of course that printer is no longer available. 

The 1900 might be about like the 1800, but not having actually tested one, I could not say.  The 1400 and 1100 are the 13" printers I now use.

>I'm leaning toward suggesting he get a 1400. (Refurbs are now at the Epson site for $179, seems a pretty decent deal.) He wants to do BO printing and I think Paul Roark says that only one cart with Eboni is enough, that it does as well as the R1800 with three carts filled with Eboni. 

I'm going to back off that now.  When my 1400 was new, it was able to produce prints that, at the time, seemed smoother than the 1800 3-MK approach.  Now I'm not so sure.  I think the 1400 shows too many defects with only one channel going.  That may be the age of the printer or some other factor.

What I found with the 1400 is that the 1800 3-MK profiling approach can be used on the 1400.  That is, the basic 1800 profiling system in the notes of the profiles for that system, works on the 1400 when 3 positions are filled with Eboni.  This, of course, would knock out the use of color in the printer also.

 
> My friend also wants to do color. My question is can he fill the K slot with an Eboni inked cart and leave it there while doing color?

I used MIS color pigs and Eboni in an R260.  I've had mixed results with mixing OEM and MIS chips.  Usually they fail to work together.


> Would he then be limited to matt paper?

With Eboni, yes.

> Or should he swap back in the OEM black cart, especially if he wants glossy color? 

I'd want to be sure OEM and MIS chips mix before spending too much money on such an approach.

> And since Eboni is a pigment ink, would it be compatible with the OEM color inks, which I think are Claria, a dye ink?

I have that Claria and/or Noritsu dyes in my 1400 with Eboni-4.  They seem chemically compatible. 

 
> And if he's doing BO printing, would he have to use QTR? Are there QTR profiles available for that?

There are QTR 1400 BO profiles.

I'm not sure there is a color + B&W approach currently that does what the 1800 setup did.  

I'd go for 2 dedicated printers -- the 1400 or 1100 for B&W, with a second color printer, maybe third party or maybe just a 1400 or smaller verion with OEM Claria inks.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:
>

> What I found with the 1400 is that the 1800 3-MK profiling approach can be used on the 1400.  That is, the basic 1800 profiling system in the notes of the profiles for that system, works on the 1400 when 3 positions are filled with Eboni.  This, of course, would knock out the use of color in the printer also.

But he could still do color on matte paper, though, right? Wouldn't the remaining five carts be OEM color, as in the R1800/3MK setup? (I use cleaning fluid in my five, tinted slightly with black so I can read my nozzle checks.)

> > Or should he swap back in the OEM black cart, especially if he wants glossy color? 
> 
> I'd want to be sure OEM and MIS chips mix before spending too much money on such an approach.

But didn't they live together comfortably with the R1800 3MK setup? I mean, there were five remaining carts, and these were presumably OEM color.
> 

> I'm not sure there is a color + B&W approach currently that does what the 1800 setup did.  

Not even the 1400?

> I'd go for 2 dedicated printers -- the 1400 or 1100 for B&W, with a second color printer, maybe third party or maybe just a 1400 or smaller verion with OEM Claria inks.

That would simplify things, for sure.

Thank you, Paul!

Paul W.

> <roark.paul@> wrote:
> > ... What I found with the 1400 is that the 1800 3-MK profiling approach can be used on the 1400.  That is, the basic 1800 profiling system in the notes of the profiles for that system, works on the 1400 when 3 positions are filled with Eboni.  This, of course, would knock out the use of color in the printer also.

"Paul" <paulmwhiting@...> wrote:

> But he could still do color on matte paper, though, right? Wouldn't the remaining five carts be OEM color, as in the R1800/3MK setup?

No, I was talking about having 3 1400 positions be Eboni.  So, it would be a 3-MK setup in a hextone printer,leaving only 3 other spots available.

>...
> 
> But didn't they [OEM and MIS chips] live together comfortably with the R1800 3MK setup? 

No, we used MIS colors in the color positions. 


> 
> > I'm not sure there is a color + B&W approach currently that does what the 1800 setup did.  
> 
> Not even the 1400?

Well, you're apparently having good luck with the BO 1400.  I did at first, but less so after the printer got older.  Granted, my 1400 is a veteran of multiple mule trips into the High Sierras, so it's probably no longer a good judge of 1400 quality.  (Actually, it's a credit to Epson the printer works at all.)  So, if he and you are comfortable with the 1400 Black Only approach, then go with it.  I just feel I have to be rather conservative in my recommendations.  I don't want to oversell a black only solution that, on my printer, is no longer what I'd consider top notch printing.  

On the other hand, if one looks closely enough, almost all of the inkjet prints have flaws.  That's why I'm now inclined to post 400 dpi scans of test strips so that people can judge for themselves.  Everything is a compromise.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

"Paul" <paulmwhiting@...> wrote:
>
> A friend was admiring some of my BO prints at a show and asked how he could get started. I'm using an R1800 with the 3MK approach, but of course that printer is no longer available. I'm leaning toward suggesting he get a 1400. (Refurbs are now at the Epson site for $179, seems a pretty decent deal.) He wants to do BO printing ...

> My friend also wants to do color. ...

I printed a Black Only test strip with my rather aged 1400.  This was with a profile that ships with QTR, Eboni MK, and Ultra Premium Presentation Matte paper.  It was scanned at 400 dpi.  Also relevant, it had a 1.5" margin at top.  The 1400, like many modern Epson desktop printers, really needs both rollers to be engaged for the best smoothness.

The scanned 21-step test strip is at 
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/1400-BO-UPPM.jpg

Frankly, it's probably going to be quite acceptable for someone who is just beginning and is OK with the level of "grain" in an 1800 3-MK print.  If it's not, the option of 2 printers is still there and one of those 2 would probably be a 1400; so it's hard to see where there would be any significant loss.

Again, I don't know about the Epson-MIS chip compatibility if the concept is to use the OEM Claria dyes with MIS Eboni in the black position.  MIS color pigments will work in a 1400, but the built-in profiles will not be close.  I used MIS color pigs in a 260 for years and had a curves set that made very acceptable colors for snapshots, but I don't consider them pro-quality at all.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:
 
> "Paul" <paulmwhiting@> wrote:
> 
> > But he could still do color on matte paper, though, right? Wouldn't the remaining five carts be OEM color, as in the R1800/3MK setup?

> No, I was talking about having 3 1400 positions be Eboni.  So, it would be a 3-MK setup in a hextone printer,leaving only 3 other spots available.

Ah, my bad. I thought the 1400 had the same number of color slots as the 1800.

> > But didn't they [OEM and MIS chips] live together comfortably with the R1800 3MK setup? 
> 
> No, we used MIS colors in the color positions.

I didn't know that either... thanks!

As you say, compromise seems to be necessary at many points in the game. Thank you for the clarifications!

Paul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

> I printed a Black Only test strip with my rather aged 1400.  This was with a profile that ships with QTR, Eboni MK, and Ultra Premium Presentation Matte paper.  It was scanned at 400 dpi.  Also relevant, it had a 1.5" margin at top.  The 1400, like many modern Epson desktop printers, really needs both rollers to be engaged for the best smoothness.
> 
> The scanned 21-step test strip is at 
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/1400-BO-UPPM.jpg

Very impressive!
 
> Frankly, it's probably going to be quite acceptable for someone who is just beginning and is OK with the level of "grain" in an 1800 3-MK print.

My friend and I are old (literally) film guys, used to Tri-X. I used Tri-X at a 1:3 dilution of D-76 which gave me very fine grain but still grainy. I was happy with results and many thought my prints were from medium format negs even though I was using 35mm. So the "grain" in 1800 3MK is way better than what I'm used to!

If it's not, the option of 2 printers is still there and one of those 2 would probably be a 1400; so it's hard to see where there would be any significant loss.

More and more, the two-printer solution may be the best way to go. I don't know about my friend's budget... we'll have to work on that option.

Many thanks,

Paul