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2011-10-26 by Joseph Chandler
Recently I had some prints matted and framed by a profesional framer. At a later date (three days later) I noticed that the prints were starting to "pucker" away from the back mat. Can this be prevented? Is there some archival adhesive that can be used? Is this a normal occurance? Any help will be appreciated as this is unsightly. Joseph Chandler [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2011-10-26 by David Kachel
>>> Recently I had some prints matted and framed by a profesional framer. At a later date (three days later) I noticed that the prints were starting to "pucker" away from the back mat. Can this be prevented? Is there some archival adhesive that can be used? Is this a normal occurance? Any help will be appreciated as this is unsightly. You have to supply more information than that. How is the print attached to the matte now? Never attach a print to a matte with adhesives. (The only exception: Japanese hinges.) Sounds like your "professional framer" wasn't so professional after all. Remember, you don't need to pass a test or get a license to hang a shingle as a framer, and that's exactly the qualifications most of them have. David Kachel ___________________ Artist-Photographer Fine B&W Photographs www.davidkachel.com david@... Gallery: www.reddoorfinephotographs.com director@... PO Box 1893 Alpine, TX 79831 (432) 386-5787 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2011-10-26 by ann clancy
This is not normal. Take it back and have them attempt to fix. What method was used for the mounting? ann --- On Tue, 10/25/11, Joseph Chandler <over40_98@...> wrote:
From: Joseph Chandler <over40_98@...>
Subject: [Digital BW] adhesion of print to mat
To: "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: "Joseph chandler" <JCHAND9971@...>
Date: Tuesday, October 25, 2011, 10:39 PM
Recently I had some prints matted and framed by a profesional framer. At a later date (three days later) I noticed that the prints were starting to "pucker" away from the back mat. Can this be prevented? Is there some archival adhesive that can be used? Is this a normal occurance? Any help will be appreciated as this is unsightly.
Joseph Chandler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2011-10-26 by Joseph Chandler
Thanks for the very quick reply, some other friends had the same situation, so I guess we'll try to rectify this "en massse". Josep Chandler
From: ann clancy <jaclancy1937@...> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 7:44 AM Subject: Re: [Digital BW] adhesion of print to mat This is not normal. Take it back and have them attempt to fix.  What method was used for the mounting? ann --- On Tue, 10/25/11, Joseph Chandler <over40_98@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Joseph Chandler <over40_98@...> Subject: [Digital BW] adhesion of print to mat To: "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> Cc: "Joseph chandler" <JCHAND9971@...> Date: Tuesday, October 25, 2011, 10:39 PM  Recently I had some prints matted and framed by a profesional framer. At a later date (three days later) I noticed that the prints were starting to "pucker" away from the back mat. Can this be prevented? Is there some archival adhesive that can be used? Is this a normal occurance? Any help will be appreciated as this is unsightly.   Joseph Chandler [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2011-10-26 by Joseph Chandler
Thanks for the quick response. Also thanks for the info. about NOT adhesiving a print to a mat, I kind of thought it shouldn't be done that way. I'm going to take the print(s) back to the framer and show him the outcome. Maybe he can straighten this out, these prints were special and I hate to give/sell anyone "crappy" work. Joseph Chandler
From: David Kachel <david@...> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 11:08 PM Subject: Re: [Digital BW] adhesion of print to mat >>> Recently I had some prints matted and framed by a profesional framer. At a later date (three days later) I noticed that the prints were starting to "pucker" away from the back mat. Can this be prevented? Is there some archival adhesive that can be used? Is this a normal occurance? Any help will be appreciated as this is unsightly. You have to supply more information than that. How is the print attached to the matte now? Never attach a print to a matte with adhesives. (The only exception: Japanese hinges.) Sounds like your "professional framer" wasn't so professional after all. Remember, you don't need to pass a test or get a license to hang a shingle as a framer, and that's exactly the qualifications most of them have. David Kachel ___________________ Artist-Photographer Fine B&W Photographs www.davidkachel.com david@davidkachel.com Gallery: www.reddoorfinephotographs.com director@reddoorfinephotographs.com PO Box 1893 Alpine, TX 79831 (432) 386-5787 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2011-10-26 by mrjimbo
Joseph, I think I know what your talking about.. but am a little confused with the term back matt.. Prints are often mounted to a substrate like foam core.. Their are a few materials we print on ...like Epson prem semi matt that have caused a lot of problems for artists and framers.. I doubt you'd know what adhesive was used but if you can tell me what material the image was printed on I think I can help you. jimbo
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Chandler
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Joseph chandler
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 8:39 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] adhesion of print to mat
Recently I had some prints matted and framed by a profesional framer. At a later date (three days later) I noticed that the prints were starting to "pucker" away from the back mat. Can this be prevented? Is there some archival adhesive that can be used? Is this a normal occurance? Any help will be appreciated as this is unsightly.
Joseph Chandler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2011-10-26 by David Kachel
>>> Thanks for the quick response. Also thanks for the info. about NOT adhesiving a print to a mat, I kind of thought it shouldn't be done that way. I'm going to take the print(s) back to the framer and show him the outcome. Maybe he can straighten this out, these prints were special and I hate to give/sell anyone "crappy" work. BEFORE you take them back, look to see how it was done. Your prints may be permanently damaged. You need to know exactly what has happened before you give the framer an opportunity to hide his mistake or do even more damage. If he in fact ruined your prints, he absolutely WILL NOT know what if anything can be done to rectify it. David Kachel ___________________ Artist-Photographer Fine B&W Photographs www.davidkachel.com david@... Gallery: www.reddoorfinephotographs.com director@... PO Box 1893 Alpine, TX 79831 (432) 386-5787 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2011-10-26 by David Kachel
>>> Thanks for the quick response. Also thanks for the info. about NOT adhesiving a print to a mat, I kind of thought it shouldn't be done that way. I'm going to take the print(s) back to the framer and show him the outcome. Maybe he can straighten this out, these prints were special and I hate to give/sell anyone "crappy" work. I guess I should expand more. From your description (more information is definitely needed; look inside the mattes!) it sounds as though your prints have been dry mounted or perhaps a spray adhesive has been used. In either case, your framer has destroyed your prints and there is no saving them. (Dry mounting was the "recommended" method decades ago, but is now definitely a no-no. Spray adhesives are unspeakable!) David Kachel ___________________ Artist-Photographer Fine B&W Photographs www.davidkachel.com david@... Gallery: www.reddoorfinephotographs.com director@... PO Box 1893 Alpine, TX 79831 (432) 386-5787 David Kachel ___________________ Artist-Photographer Fine B&W Photographs www.davidkachel.com david@... Gallery: www.reddoorfinephotographs.com director@... PO Box 1893 Alpine, TX 79831 (432) 386-5787 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2011-10-26 by mrjimbo
David Something is missing for me on this thread.. We don't know what material the images are printed on. Maybe I missed it... If it was a fine art paper then yes they should not be mounted as they were.. If, however , they are a photographic type material is deemed acceptable to mount them to a substrate.. That last remark being said.. Epson has come out with a couple of newer papers that have defied most of the traditional mounting methods.. I have been at public displays where an artist was literally in tears due this ...Image puckers from delamming ...Anyway I was part of a test group sometime ago working with Seal to better understand what adhesive films were causing issues and which were proper to get past the issues.. We got there..There are still many framers that are doing it the old way and scrapping prints. Anyway, If the prints are mounted and this occurs typically they are scrap.. There are a few adhesive films that can be "undone" when ran back thru the heat cycle but generally the print is damaged in the process. So does anyone know what the prints were ran on? jimbo
----- Original Message -----
From: David Kachel
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 8:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] adhesion of print to mat
>>> Thanks for the quick response. Also thanks for the info. about NOT
adhesiving a print to a mat, I kind of thought it shouldn't be done that way.
I'm going to take the print(s) back to the framer and show him the outcome.
Maybe he can straighten this out, these prints were special and I hate to
give/sell anyone "crappy" work.
BEFORE you take them back, look to see how it was done. Your prints may be
permanently damaged. You need to know exactly what has happened before you
give the framer an opportunity to hide his mistake or do even more damage.
If he in fact ruined your prints, he absolutely WILL NOT know what if
anything can be done to rectify it.
David Kachel
___________________
Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs
www.davidkachel.com
david@...
Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...
PO Box 1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2011-10-26 by David Kachel
>>> If, however , they are a photographic type material is deemed acceptable to mount them to a substrate. jimbo, good point. I tend to forget that most photographers use junk materials. If the prints were made on trash papers, then it doesn't matter if they were mounted to old Big Mac boxes using chewing gum and scotch tape. If however, they are serious prints on quality papers, then nothing sticky, no matter what 3M says, should ever be used. And foam core NEVER! Same category as Big Mac boxes. David Kachel ___________________ Artist-Photographer Fine B&W Photographs www.davidkachel.com david@... Gallery: www.reddoorfinephotographs.com director@... PO Box 1893 Alpine, TX 79831 (432) 386-5787 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2011-10-26 by Leslie Otterbein
I echo jimbo's comment. We don't know what we're talking about until the original poster gives us more details. If the paper is heavy, like the papers commonly used on this forum, I have matted heavyweight stock without adhesives and not seen any buckling. I simply tape the top of the print to the window, and let it float with a back matte attached to the front one to keep it tight. This I was taught by my local framer, since retired. However, I have seen prints done in Wallmart for instance, using very thin photographic paper, which must be kept flat in some manner, or they will get very wavy in the matte. I have seen a Club exhibition of some thirty prints with this showing, and they were done "professionally" by a local Camera store that was a major sponsor. I have a print done on one of those Kodak machines which is toast because the print got a wave that touched the glass and that spot lost its gloss. It is true there are issues with drymounting but in the case I cited above, what else can we do? Leslie Otterbein On 2011-10-26, at 7:34 AM, mrjimbo wrote: > David > Something is missing for me on this thread.. We don't know what material the images are printed on. Maybe I missed it... If it was a fine art paper then yes they should not be mounted as they were.. If, however , they are a photographic type material is deemed acceptable to mount them to a substrate.. That last remark being said.. Epson has come out with a couple of newer papers that have defied most of the traditional mounting methods.. I have been at public displays where an artist was literally in tears due this ...Image puckers from delamming ...Anyway I was part of a test group sometime ago working with Seal to better understand what adhesive films were causing issues and which were proper to get past the issues.. We got there..There are still many framers that are doing it the old way and scrapping prints. Anyway, If the prints are mounted and this occurs typically they are scrap.. There are a few adhesive films that can be "undone" when ran back thru the heat cycle but generally the print is damaged in the process. So does anyone know what the prints were ran on? > > jimbo > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Kachel > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 8:08 AM > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] adhesion of print to mat > > >>> Thanks for the quick response. Also thanks for the info. about NOT > adhesiving a print to a mat, I kind of thought it shouldn't be done that way. > I'm going to take the print(s) back to the framer and show him the outcome. > Maybe he can straighten this out, these prints were special and I hate to > give/sell anyone "crappy" work. > > BEFORE you take them back, look to see how it was done. Your prints may be > permanently damaged. You need to know exactly what has happened before you > give the framer an opportunity to hide his mistake or do even more damage. > If he in fact ruined your prints, he absolutely WILL NOT know what if > anything can be done to rectify it. > > David Kachel > > ___________________ > > Artist-Photographer > Fine B&W Photographs > > www.davidkachel.com > david@... > > Gallery: > www.reddoorfinephotographs.com > director@reddoorfinephotographs.com > > PO Box 1893 > Alpine, TX 79831 > (432) 386-5787 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2011-10-26 by David Kachel
>>> >It is true there are issues with drymounting but in the case I cited >above, what else can we do? Simple. Don't use trash papers. And if you are selling them, using junk papers is downright dishonest. David Kachel ___________________ Artist-Photographer Fine B&W Photographs www.davidkachel.com david@... Gallery: www.reddoorfinephotographs.com director@... PO Box 1893 Alpine, TX 79831 (432) 386-5787
2011-10-26 by Joseph Chandler
Thanks to all you folks for your responses. In a way I'm new to this, I've never really sold pictures before ( I shoot and give files). Anyway, I use what I think are good papers, I'm always checking various papers for their "look". The picture that buckled was on Ilford "Smooth Pearl", as were some others. Another print was on MOAB "Lasal". I'm using an EPSON 2400 and/or 1800 with Epson inks and sometimes EPSON papers. I have some MUSEO, and have tried Hannamuel (mis spelled?). I have also tried MIS Black inks. I probably should set up a MIS system, but thats later. Right now I'm trying to get around the "buckling" problem.
From: mrjimbo <mrjimbo@...> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [Digital BW] adhesion of print to mat Joseph, I think I know what your talking about.. but am a little confused with the term back matt.. Prints are often mounted to a substrate like foam core.. Their are a few materials we print on ...like Epson prem semi matt that have caused a lot of problems for artists and framers.. I doubt you'd know what adhesive was used but if you can tell me what material the image was printed on I think I can help you. jimbo ----- Original Message ----- From: Joseph Chandler To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Cc: Joseph chandler Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 8:39 PM Subject: [Digital BW] adhesion of print to mat Recently I had some prints matted and framed by a profesional framer. At a later date (three days later) I noticed that the prints were starting to "pucker" away from the back mat. Can this be prevented? Is there some archival adhesive that can be used? Is this a normal occurance? Any help will be appreciated as this is unsightly. Joseph Chandler [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2011-10-26 by mrjimbo
Ooooooh, David your being brutal...:-))... Hopefully your not suggesting that Say Epson's Photo paper line ..ie Prem Glossy, Prem Luster or the newer Prem Semui matte are junk papers.. Their not in my opinion ...just used in instances where one wants to emulate a traditional photograph. Fine art papers which compare more to water color type materials are a different duck and should be treated that way.. I duley respect your take on this and it indicates your position in the prints you market.. That's a good thing.. This is a B&W group.. which is specific to that process and not necessarily just fine art on higher end fine art papers. Anyway I like your position and concur personally but as a service provider I realize that art is in the eye of the beholder so I feel it appropriate to respect our differences. jimbo
----- Original Message -----
From: David Kachel
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] adhesion of print to mat
>>> If, however , they are a photographic type material is deemed acceptable to
mount them to a substrate.
jimbo, good point. I tend to forget that most photographers use junk
materials.
If the prints were made on trash papers, then it doesn't matter if they were
mounted to old Big Mac boxes using chewing gum and scotch tape.
If however, they are serious prints on quality papers, then nothing sticky,
no matter what 3M says, should ever be used.
And foam coreS NEVER! Same category as Big Mac boxes.
David Kachel
___________________
Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs
www.davidkachel.com
david@...
Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...
PO Box 1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2011-10-26 by Joseph Chandler
Lets try this: what papers are best for printing Matte as well as "glossy type"? Are Ilford or MOAB seen as "junk" papers? The majority of my work is of musicians doing live shows, and often the purchasers are looking for a glossy type of print. This all started in my quest to find out about framig pictures and has evolved into what type of paper is used. Joseph Chandler
From: mrjimbo <mrjimbo@...> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 12:24 PM Subject: Re: [Digital BW] adhesion of print to mat Ooooooh, David your being brutal...:-))... Hopefully your not suggesting that Say Epson's Photo paper line ..ie Prem Glossy, Prem Luster or the newer Prem Semui matte are junk papers.. Their not in my opinion ...just used in instances where one wants to emulate a traditional photograph. Fine art papers which compare more to water color type materials are a different duck and should be treated that way.. I duley respect your take on this and it indicates your position in the prints you market.. That's a good thing.. This is a B&W group.. which is specific to that process and not necessarily just fine art on higher end fine art papers. Anyway I like your position and concur personally but as a service provider I realize that art is in the eye of the beholder so I feel it appropriate to respect our differences. jimbo ----- Original Message ----- From: David Kachel To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 9:08 AM Subject: Re: [Digital BW] adhesion of print to mat >>> If, however , they are a photographic type material is deemed acceptable to mount them to a substrate. jimbo, good point. I tend to forget that most photographers use junk materials. If the prints were made on trash papers, then it doesn't matter if they were mounted to old Big Mac boxes using chewing gum and scotch tape. If however, they are serious prints on quality papers, then nothing sticky, no matter what 3M says, should ever be used. And foam coreS NEVER! Same category as Big Mac boxes. David Kachel ___________________ Artist-Photographer Fine B&W Photographs www.davidkachel.com david@... Gallery: www.reddoorfinephotographs.com director@... PO Box 1893 Alpine, TX 79831 (432) 386-5787 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2011-10-26 by jerryhadam
> Recently I had some prints matted and framed by a profesional framer. At a later date (three days later) I noticed that the prints were starting to "pucker" away from the back mat. Can this be prevented? Is there some archival adhesive that can be used? Is this a normal occurance? Any help will be appreciated as this is unsightly. > > > Joseph Chandler > Not sure I understand you issue mats will sometimes ripple and warp with changing moisture and temperature. Also 4 ply mats on very large images can do that. Or is it foamcore backing that is pulling away from the image. Also if a large mat is fitted to a frame without the 'standard allowance' the differing rates of expansion and contraction of the involved materials can cause mat or mounting substrate buckling issues. Give some details on how it was mounted, size and type of mounting and matting materials used and I can give some good suggestions. I tend to spot glue my mats to the backing or mounting substrate for precise alignment on the image and to eliminate the chance of mat buckling. With 6 or 8 ply this is much less necessary. Just a guy who hung a shingle after 30 years of mounting and matting my own work. FWIW I have doing framing full time for the last 8 years and taken about 120 hours of classes in that time as well as read every professional manual, magazine and video I could get my hands on. Not all framers put in the research and work to become proficient. There are lots of ways to do it 'wrong', and usually only a few ways to do it right. The very first thing you should do is return the piece to the framer. I offer a satisfaction guarantee on every piece of work I put out and ask my clients to Please do me the favor of returning any work to me that is not acceptable or shows any issues at all. I even offer to go pick it up and return it to them. There are only three things I can think of in that time and those were limited edition photos that were hinged and the clients decided to dry mount them. After seeing the slight inevitable rippling that a large hinged print will show. Ok back to work for me. Good luck and get them fixed. It is hard to have confidence in your work being displayed when you don't like some aspect of the way they look. Jerry http://www.saddletreegallery.com/ >Sounds like your "professional framer" wasn't so professional after all. >Remember, you don't need to pass a test or get a license to hang a shingle >as a framer, and that's exactly the qualifications most of them have. >David Kachel David - there are many reasons that could cause this issue and a few, at least, that may not be the framers 'fault'. At least completely. No need to disparage a whole profession from one marginal result.
2011-10-26 by David Kachel
>>> Ooooooh, David your being brutal...:-))... Don't shoot the messenger. This isn't breaking news and I'm not the investigative reporter. Sadly, it seems that in recent years newcomer photographers have decided not to learn anything from those who went before and so they are having to learn the hard way not to use junk materials. When it comes to papers, it is very simple: ACIDIC = BAD, NO ACID = GOOD 100% cotton rag papers contain no acid Best The newer "Baryta" papers have been de-acidified and presumably buffered Good, but not best Everything else contains acid and is bad. (With the exception of some Japanese and other similar material/process papers, which despite claims, DO TEST POSITIVE FOR ACIDS, are nonetheless considered acceptable by many.) Hint: When paper sellers want to disguise their junk papers they generally fancy up the names; the longer and more elegant the name, the poorer the paper. They especially like 'magic' words, like "deluxe", and "special". Another Hint: Makers of acid-free papers want to make damn sure you notice it. "100% cotton" and/or "acid-free" is plastered all over the box the paper comes in. If the box doesn't say it, it isn't. Instead the box says "super wonderful paper". ;-) David Kachel ___________________ Artist-Photographer Fine B&W Photographs www.davidkachel.com david@... Gallery: www.reddoorfinephotographs.com director@reddoorfinephotographs.com PO Box 1893 Alpine, TX 79831 (432) 386-5787 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2011-10-26 by mrjimbo
Hi Joseph, I got what your up to now...Thanks for getting back you've cleared it up I think.. Ok type of product you going after is just fine.. .. and in truth your material choices will be driven largely by personal preferences.. Epson's material works fine as does many other manufactures including those you suggested.. So my response to you would be to pick one that makes the best statement for you that your trying to make and you just like it.. Many here can an will offer suggestions for you to consider.. Now that I know what your using here is what headed south for your framer.. many of the newer papers offered by some suppliers are basically all synthetic.. The one that really brought down the walls all over was Epson's Prem semi matt.. their are still lawsuits going on over it. Anyway some of the newer materials just don't work with the traditional photo adhesive films that we've been using for ages...like photomount to name one.. The more it gets exposed to heat the crazier it gets.. So a framer that is used to using say Photomount is guaranteed to brake when he mounts a print made from Prem Semi Matt.. What also makes it difficult is that Epson is not doing anything to educate users of their materials in this area.. As a side note the mounted prints can't be saved..the framer will try to reheat and apply vacuum an dit might look ok for a day or so but they come apart again.. So the answer is simply to use a different adhesive film and the issue is solved.. but the framer needs to know this and know what to use.. so it's not business as usual anymore.. In all fairness to a framer.. when you bring a gloss print in he doesn't really understand any of this.. to him it's just a photo.. So he's doing what he knows works.. To help him do a better job tell him the specific material being used and if you can provide specific product info that would be great.. he can then check with his adhesive supplier to get the right product for the job.. The issue is totally focused on getting educated in my opinion. A photographer friend of mine in another state had (24) 20 x 30 prints made on Epson's Prem Semi Matt. Then took them to a framer to get them mounted and framed for a special one man showing.. The show was supposed to last for a month.. they pulled it after two weeks as every print in the show was coming off the substrate.. He's still trying to live that one down.. jimbo
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Chandler
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] adhesion of print to mat
Lets try this: what papers are best for printing Matte as well as "glossy type"? Are Ilford or MOAB seen as "junk" papers? The majority of my work is of musicians doing live shows, and often the purchasers are looking for a glossy type of print. This all started in my quest to find out about framig pictures and has evolved into what type of paper is used.
Joseph Chandler
From: mrjimbo <mrjimbo@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] adhesion of print to mat
Ooooooh, David your being brutal...:-))... Hopefully your not suggesting that Say Epson's Photo paper line ..ie Prem Glossy, Prem Luster or the newer Prem Semui matte are junk papers.. Their not in my opinion ...just used in instances where one wants to emulate a traditional photograph. Fine art papers which compare more to water color type materials are a different duck and should be treated that way.. I duley respect your take on this and it indicates your position in the prints you market.. That's a good thing.. This is a B&W group.. which is specific to that process and not necessarily just fine art on higher end fine art papers. Anyway I like your position and concur personally but as a service provider I realize that art is in the eye of the beholder so I feel it appropriate to respect our differences.
jimbo
----- Original Message -----
From: David Kachel
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] adhesion of print to mat
>>> If, however , they are a photographic type material is deemed acceptable to
mount them to a substrate.
jimbo, good point. I tend to forget that most photographers use junk
materials.
If the prints were made on trash papers, then it doesn't matter if they were
mounted to old Big Mac boxes using chewing gum and scotch tape.
If however, they are serious prints on quality papers, then nothing sticky,
no matter what 3M says, should ever be used.
And foam coreS NEVER! Same category as Big Mac boxes.
David Kachel
___________________
Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs
www.davidkachel.com
david@...
Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...
PO Box 1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2011-10-26 by Joseph Chandler
Good information. Thanks loads. Now; I'm going to PDN either tomorrow or Saturday, is there anything special I should say to the paper makers, or should I leave it be? Personally I'm not the trouble making kind of a guy, I just want results, and the truth don't hurt! I like to print up to 13 X 19 size for my own collection (I shoot musicians, 'caus I love music). I printed out David Kachel' "Matting and Framing Your Photographs" and maybe this can guide me in the right direction. I'd like to think that my photos will be here long after I'm gone. Anyway, thanks again. Joseph Chandler
From: mrjimbo <mrjimbo@...> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 2:25 PM Subject: Re: [Digital BW] adhesion of print to mat Hi Joseph, I got what your up to now...Thanks for getting back you've cleared it up I think.. Ok type of product you going after is just fine.. .. and in truth your material choices will be driven largely by personal preferences.. Epson's material works fine as does many other manufactures including those you suggested.. So my response to you would be to pick one that makes the best statement for you that your trying to make and you just like it.. Many here can an will offer suggestions for you to consider.. Now that I know what your using here is what headed south for your framer.. many of the newer papers offered by some suppliers are basically all synthetic.. The one that really brought down the walls all over was Epson's Prem semi matt.. their are still lawsuits going on over it. Anyway some of the newer materials just don't work with the traditional photo adhesive films that we've been using for ages...like photomount to name one.. The more it gets exposed to heat the crazier it gets.. So a framer that is used to using say Photomount is guaranteed to brake when he mounts a print made from Prem Semi Matt.. What also makes it difficult is that Epson is not doing anything to educate users of their materials in this area.. As a side note the mounted prints can't be saved..the framer will try to reheat and apply vacuum an dit might look ok for a day or so but they come apart again.. So the answer is simply to use a different adhesive film and the issue is solved.. but the framer needs to know this and know what to use.. so it's not business as usual anymore.. In all fairness to a framer.. when you bring a gloss print in he doesn't really understand any of this.. to him it's just a photo.. So he's doing what he knows works.. To help him do a better job tell him the specific material being used and if you can provide specific product info that would be great.. he can then check with his adhesive supplier to get the right product for the job.. The issue is totally focused on getting educated in my opinion. A photographer friend of mine in another state had (24) 20 x 30 prints made on Epson's Prem Semi Matt. Then took them to a framer to get them mounted and framed for a special one man showing.. The show was supposed to last for a month.. they pulled it after two weeks as every print in the show was coming off the substrate.. He's still trying to live that one down.. jimbo ----- Original Message ----- From: Joseph Chandler To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [Digital BW] adhesion of print to mat Lets try this: what papers are best for printing Matte as well as "glossy type"? Are Ilford or MOAB seen as "junk" papers? The majority of my work is of musicians doing live shows, and often the purchasers are looking for a glossy type of print. This all started in my quest to find out about framig pictures and has evolved into what type of paper is used. Joseph Chandler From: mrjimbo <mrjimbo@...> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 12:24 PM Subject: Re: [Digital BW] adhesion of print to mat Ooooooh, David your being brutal...:-))... Hopefully your not suggesting that Say Epson's Photo paper line ..ie Prem Glossy, Prem Luster or the newer Prem Semui matte are junk papers.. Their not in my opinion ...just used in instances where one wants to emulate a traditional photograph. Fine art papers which compare more to water color type materials are a different duck and should be treated that way.. I duley respect your take on this and it indicates your position in the prints you market.. That's a good thing.. This is a B&W group.. which is specific to that process and not necessarily just fine art on higher end fine art papers. Anyway I like your position and concur personally but as a service provider I realize that art is in the eye of the beholder so I feel it appropriate to respect our differences. jimbo ----- Original Message ----- From: David Kachel To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 9:08 AM Subject: Re: [Digital BW] adhesion of print to mat >>> If, however , they are a photographic type material is deemed acceptable to mount them to a substrate. jimbo, good point. I tend to forget that most photographers use junk materials. If the prints were made on trash papers, then it doesn't matter if they were mounted to old Big Mac boxes using chewing gum and scotch tape. If however, they are serious prints on quality papers, then nothing sticky, no matter what 3M says, should ever be used. And foam coreS NEVER! Same category as Big Mac boxes. David Kachel ___________________ Artist-Photographer Fine B&W Photographs www.davidkachel.com david@... Gallery: www.reddoorfinephotographs.com director@... PO Box 1893 Alpine, TX 79831 (432) 386-5787 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2011-10-26 by David Kachel
>>> is there anything special I should say to the paper makers, or should I leave it be? I'm the kind who usually can¹t keep his mouth shut, but it won't do any good. The only thing they pay attention to is what you buy, or don't buy. B&W photographers have been screaming at Epson for years about what we need and they pay no attention either. Eventually the competition will get strong enough that voting with dollars will have a bigger effect. David Kachel ___________________ Artist-Photographer Fine B&W Photographs www.davidkachel.com david@... Gallery: www.reddoorfinephotographs.com director@... PO Box 1893 Alpine, TX 79831 (432) 386-5787 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2011-10-26 by mrjimbo
Hi Joseph, Their are paper suppliers i.e. Shades of Paper that could provide you with sample packs to try out. You should be able to get these from all the prime paper guys so they should be available somewhere... You'll have to pay for them but I would highly advise it if your not that familiar with papers.. Also , constructively.. I realize your emulating photographs but David's position is very well founded.. If your doing a little testing you may want to include a little of that ....you just may be surprised.. In the end the choice is yours.. We all speak from our space which just may not be where you want to go.. Have it be fun.. I guess a last word of advise.. when we collaborate with a framer.. it might be just buying a service but if you look at it like a partnership of sorts ..go the extra mile to help them do their best for you.. I find not many "Mistrakes" happen that way....:-)).. jimbo
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Chandler
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 1:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] adhesion of print to mat
Good information. Thanks loads. Now; I'm going to PDN either tomorrow or Saturday, is there anything special I should say to the paper makers, or should I leave it be? Personally I'm not the trouble making kind of a guy, I just want results, and the truth don't hurt! I like to print up to 13 X 19 size for my own collection (I shoot musicians, 'caus I love music). I printed out David Kachel' "Matting and Framing Your Photographs" and maybe this can guide me in the right direction. I'd like to think that my photos will be here long after I'm gone.
Anyway, thanks again.
Joseph Chandler
From: mrjimbo <mrjimbo@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] adhesion of print to mat
Hi Joseph,
I got what your up to now...Thanks for getting back you've cleared it up I think..
Ok type of product you going after is just fine.. .. and in truth your material choices will be driven largely by personal preferences.. Epson's material works fine as does many other manufactures including those you suggested.. So my response to you would be to pick one that makes the best statement for you that your trying to make and you just like it.. Many here can an will offer suggestions for you to consider..
Now that I know what your using here is what headed south for your framer.. many of the newer papers offered by some suppliers are basically all synthetic.. The one that really brought down the walls all over was Epson's Prem semi matt.. their are still lawsuits going on over it. Anyway some of the newer materials just don't work with the traditional photo adhesive films that we've been using for ages...like photomount to name one.. The more it gets exposed to heat the crazier it gets.. So a framer that is used to using say Photomount is guaranteed to brake when he mounts a print made from Prem Semi Matt.. What also makes it difficult is that Epson is not doing anything to educate users of their materials in this area.. As a side note the mounted prints can't be saved..the framer will try to reheat and apply vacuum an dit might look ok for a day or so but they come apart again..
So the answer is simply to use a different adhesive film and the issue is solved.. but the framer needs to know this and know what to use.. so it's not business as usual anymore.. In all fairness to a framer.. when you bring a gloss print in he doesn't really understand any of this.. to him it's just a photo.. So he's doing what he knows works.. To help him do a better job tell him the specific material being used and if you can provide specific product info that would be great.. he can then check with his adhesive supplier to get the right product for the job.. The issue is totally focused on getting educated in my opinion.
A photographer friend of mine in another state had (24) 20 x 30 prints made on Epson's Prem Semi Matt. Then took them to a framer to get them mounted and framed for a special one man showing.. The show was supposed to last for a month.. they pulled it after two weeks as every print in the show was coming off the substrate.. He's still trying to live that one down..
jimbo
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Chandler
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] adhesion of print to mat
Lets try this: what papers are best for printing Matte as well as "glossy type"? Are Ilford or MOAB seen as "junk" papers? The majority of my work is of musicians doing live shows, and often the purchasers are looking for a glossy type of print. This all started in my quest to find out about framig pictures and has evolved into what type of paper is used.
Joseph Chandler
From: mrjimbo <mrjimbo@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] adhesion of print to mat
Ooooooh, David your being brutal...:-))... Hopefully your not suggesting that Say Epson's Photo paper line ..ie Prem Glossy, Prem Luster or the newer Prem Semui matte are junk papers.. Their not in my opinion ...just used in instances where one wants to emulate a traditional photograph. Fine art papers which compare more to water color type materials are a different duck and should be treated that way.. I duley respect your take on this and it indicates your position in the prints you market.. That's a good thing.. This is a B&W group.. which is specific to that process and not necessarily just fine art on higher end fine art papers. Anyway I like your position and concur personally but as a service provider I realize that art is in the eye of the beholder so I feel it appropriate to respect our differences.
jimbo
----- Original Message -----
From: David Kachel
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] adhesion of print to mat
>>> If, however , they are a photographic type material is deemed acceptable to
mount them to a substrate.
jimbo, good point. I tend to forget that most photographers use junk
materials.
If the prints were made on trash papers, then it doesn't matter if they were
mounted to old Big Mac boxes using chewing gum and scotch tape.
If however, they are serious prints on quality papers, then nothing sticky,
no matter what 3M says, should ever be used.
And foam coreS NEVER! Same category as Big Mac boxes.
David Kachel
___________________
Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs
www.davidkachel.com
david@...
Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...
PO Box 1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2011-10-26 by David Kachel
I should have thought to mention this if you are paper shopping Most papers are coated on only one side. For me that is an immediate rejection. Such papers cost you twice as much money in test prints as those coated on both sides. David Kachel ___________________ Artist-Photographer Fine B&W Photographs www.davidkachel.com david@... Gallery: www.reddoorfinephotographs.com director@... PO Box 1893 Alpine, TX 79831 (432) 386-5787 David Kachel ___________________ Artist-Photographer Fine B&W Photographs www.davidkachel.com david@... Gallery: www.reddoorfinephotographs.com director@... PO Box 1893 Alpine, TX 79831 (432) 386-5787 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2011-10-26 by Joseph Chandler
Good point, I'll remember that. Joseph Chandler
From: David Kachel <david@...> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 4:18 PM Subject: Re: [Digital BW] adhesion of print to mat I should have thought to mention this if you are paper shoppingŠ Most papers are coated on only one side. For me that is an immediate rejection. Such papers cost you twice as much money in test prints as those coated on both sides. David Kachel ___________________ Artist-Photographer Fine B&W Photographs www.davidkachel.com david@davidkachel.com Gallery: www.reddoorfinephotographs.com director@reddoorfinephotographs.com PO Box 1893 Alpine, TX 79831 (432) 386-5787 David Kachel ___________________ Artist-Photographer Fine B&W Photographs www.davidkachel.com david@... Gallery: www.reddoorfinephotographs.com director@reddoorfinephotographs.com PO Box 1893 Alpine, TX 79831 (432) 386-5787 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2011-10-26 by Joseph Chandler
Once again good information. I read Davids article which was loaded with very good info. In fact, I called one of the photographers who had a similar problem are read him some sections from the article. I'm going to get this right sooner or later. Joseph Chandler
From: mrjimbo <mrjimbo@...> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 4:10 PM Subject: Re: [Digital BW] adhesion of print to mat Hi Joseph, Their are paper suppliers i.e. Shades of Paper that could provide you with sample packs to try out. You should be able to get these from all the prime paper guys so they should be available somewhere... You'll have to pay for them but I would highly advise it if your not that familiar with papers.. Also , constructively.. I realize your emulating photographs but David's position is very well founded.. If your doing a little testing you may want to include a little of that ....you just may be surprised.. In the end the choice is yours.. We all speak from our space which just may not be where you want to go.. Have it be fun.. I guess a last word of advise.. when we collaborate with a framer.. it might be just buying a service but if you look at it like a partnership of sorts ..go the extra mile to help them do their best for you.. I find not many "Mistrakes" happen that way....:-)).. jimbo ----- Original Message ----- From: Joseph Chandler To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 1:48 PM Subject: Re: [Digital BW] adhesion of print to mat Good information. Thanks loads. Now; I'm going to PDN either tomorrow or Saturday, is there anything special I should say to the paper makers, or should I leave it be? Personally I'm not the trouble making kind of a guy, I just want results, and the truth don't hurt! I like to print up to 13 X 19 size for my own collection (I shoot musicians, 'caus I love music). I printed out David Kachel' "Matting and Framing Your Photographs" and maybe this can guide me in the right direction. I'd like to think that my photos will be here long after I'm gone. Anyway, thanks again. Joseph Chandler From: mrjimbo <mrjimbo@...> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 2:25 PM Subject: Re: [Digital BW] adhesion of print to mat Hi Joseph, I got what your up to now...Thanks for getting back you've cleared it up I think.. Ok type of product you going after is just fine.. .. and in truth your material choices will be driven largely by personal preferences.. Epson's material works fine as does many other manufactures including those you suggested.. So my response to you would be to pick one that makes the best statement for you that your trying to make and you just like it.. Many here can an will offer suggestions for you to consider.. Now that I know what your using here is what headed south for your framer.. many of the newer papers offered by some suppliers are basically all synthetic.. The one that really brought down the walls all over was Epson's Prem semi matt.. their are still lawsuits going on over it. Anyway some of the newer materials just don't work with the traditional photo adhesive films that we've been using for ages...like photomount to name one.. The more it gets exposed to heat the crazier it gets.. So a framer that is used to using say Photomount is guaranteed to brake when he mounts a print made from Prem Semi Matt.. What also makes it difficult is that Epson is not doing anything to educate users of their materials in this area.. As a side note the mounted prints can't be saved..the framer will try to reheat and apply vacuum an dit might look ok for a day or so but they come apart again.. So the answer is simply to use a different adhesive film and the issue is solved.. but the framer needs to know this and know what to use.. so it's not business as usual anymore.. In all fairness to a framer.. when you bring a gloss print in he doesn't really understand any of this.. to him it's just a photo.. So he's doing what he knows works.. To help him do a better job tell him the specific material being used and if you can provide specific product info that would be great.. he can then check with his adhesive supplier to get the right product for the job.. The issue is totally focused on getting educated in my opinion. A photographer friend of mine in another state had (24) 20 x 30 prints made on Epson's Prem Semi Matt. Then took them to a framer to get them mounted and framed for a special one man showing.. The show was supposed to last for a month.. they pulled it after two weeks as every print in the show was coming off the substrate.. He's still trying to live that one down.. jimbo ----- Original Message ----- From: Joseph Chandler To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [Digital BW] adhesion of print to mat Lets try this: what papers are best for printing Matte as well as "glossy type"? Are Ilford or MOAB seen as "junk" papers? The majority of my work is of musicians doing live shows, and often the purchasers are looking for a glossy type of print. This all started in my quest to find out about framig pictures and has evolved into what type of paper is used. Joseph Chandler From: mrjimbo <mrjimbo@...> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 12:24 PM Subject: Re: [Digital BW] adhesion of print to mat Ooooooh, David your being brutal...:-))... Hopefully your not suggesting that Say Epson's Photo paper line ..ie Prem Glossy, Prem Luster or the newer Prem Semui matte are junk papers.. Their not in my opinion ...just used in instances where one wants to emulate a traditional photograph. Fine art papers which compare more to water color type materials are a different duck and should be treated that way.. I duley respect your take on this and it indicates your position in the prints you market.. That's a good thing.. This is a B&W group.. which is specific to that process and not necessarily just fine art on higher end fine art papers. Anyway I like your position and concur personally but as a service provider I realize that art is in the eye of the beholder so I feel it appropriate to respect our differences. jimbo ----- Original Message ----- From: David Kachel To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 9:08 AM Subject: Re: [Digital BW] adhesion of print to mat >>> If, however , they are a photographic type material is deemed acceptable to mount them to a substrate. jimbo, good point. I tend to forget that most photographers use junk materials. If the prints were made on trash papers, then it doesn't matter if they were mounted to old Big Mac boxes using chewing gum and scotch tape. If however, they are serious prints on quality papers, then nothing sticky, no matter what 3M says, should ever be used. And foam coreS NEVER! Same category as Big Mac boxes. David Kachel ___________________ Artist-Photographer Fine B&W Photographs www.davidkachel.com david@... Gallery: www.reddoorfinephotographs.com director@... PO Box 1893 Alpine, TX 79831 (432) 386-5787 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2011-10-26 by Joseph Chandler
'Nuf said here. The power of the dollar (or Lire, Pound, Frank or whatever). Joseph Chandler
From: David Kachel <david@davidkachel.com> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 4:09 PM Subject: Re: [Digital BW] adhesion of print to mat >>> is there anything special I should say to the paper makers, or should I leave it be? I'm the kind who usually can¹t keep his mouth shut, but it won't do any good. The only thing they pay attention to is what you buy, or don't buy. B&W photographers have been screaming at Epson for years about what we need and they pay no attention either. Eventually the competition will get strong enough that voting with dollars will have a bigger effect. David Kachel ___________________ Artist-Photographer Fine B&W Photographs www.davidkachel.com david@... Gallery: www.reddoorfinephotographs.com director@... PO Box 1893 Alpine, TX 79831 (432) 386-5787 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2011-10-27 by faeofavalon
That was funny :D Be careful what you post here, David. The Starn Twins might steal your ideas ;) -AnnMarie Tornabene --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, David Kachel <david@...> wrote:
> > >>> If, however , they are a photographic type material is deemed acceptable to > mount them to a substrate. > > jimbo, good point. I tend to forget that most photographers use junk > materials. > If the prints were made on trash papers, then it doesn't matter if they were > mounted to old Big Mac boxes using chewing gum and scotch tape. > If however, they are serious prints on quality papers, then nothing sticky, > no matter what 3M says, should ever be used. > And foam core NEVER! Same category as Big Mac boxes. > > David Kachel
2011-10-27 by Mark Savoia
They always do. Mark http://www.stillrivereditions.com On Oct 27, 2011, at 9:58 AM, faeofavalon wrote: > The Starn Twins might steal your ideas ;) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2011-10-27 by Paul
"mrjimbo" <mrjimbo@...> wrote: > > ... > A photographer friend of mine in another state had (24) 20 x 30 prints made on Epson's Prem Semi Matt. Then took them to a framer to get them mounted and framed ... > every print in the show was coming off the substrate.. I'm just getting around to reading this very good thread and wanted to second this experience. My first "glossy" type prints made for the local museum were on Epson Premium Semi Matte. The adhesives the framer used will not hold it to the substrate (supposedly acid-free foam core in this case). My current approach when the museum wants "glossy" types for "glass-less" display has been my "sepia" workflow -- MIS PK, LK, LLK 100% carbon on Museo Silver Rag -- and they've been doing very well so far. Samy's mounted them on Gatorboard (pre-treated with some type of adhesive) with a roller press they have. It'll be interesting to see how they look after a few years. I might add that purchasers of copies of the images in the local centennial historic photo display have opted for the sepia style prints over the neutral matte paper option. On the other hand the museum director, who has taken classes in issues of archival materials and storage, wants a set of matte paper prints for long term storage. Paul www.PaulRoark.com
2011-10-27 by mrjimbo
Many people across the country hit a wall with Epson's Prem Semi Matt.. Actually their are several other materials out there by various manufactures that had issues with the synthetic materials.. Actually I think I didn't mention what the solution was .. Their are two ways.. The photomount spray adhesive for those doing home mounting of small prints works just fine.. The mounting film I use is Beinfang's Ragmount.. That stuff will hold down a greased snake...:-)). It has been thoroughly tested with all the newer materials and works like a charm. Other manufacturers have equivalents of Rag mount...non of teh typical photomount adhesives work as they were designed for different materials.. David close your eyes for this next part ok? Also for those that are bent on mounting what we call fine art materials permanently.. Rag mount works for that also.. Ok lastly....Paul...you may want to do a little homework on Gator board.. We use it a lot here.. but it can screw up your prints over time.. It contains formaldehyde which never gets totally released and it requires a barrier if you want a truly archival mount. It was designed for signage so it's not an issue there.. The museum approved barrier methods are a good coat of Gesso or laminating a piece of acid free matt to the gator followed by mounting the print on that.. The later is the preferred method. I've heard of mounting film sthat work too but have never went their as they wern't listed in approved processes when I was digging into this. jimbo
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 9:56 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: adhesion of print to mat
"mrjimbo" <mrjimbo@...> wrote:
>
> ...
> A photographer friend of mine in another state had (24) 20 x 30 prints made on Epson's Prem Semi Matt. Then took them to a framer to get them mounted and framed ...
> every print in the show was coming off the substrate..
I'm just getting around to reading this very good thread and wanted to second this experience. My first "glossy" type prints made for the local museum were on Epson Premium Semi Matte. The adhesives the framer used will not hold it to the substrate (supposedly acid-free foam core in this case).
My current approach when the museum wants "glossy" types for "glass-less" display has been my "sepia" workflow -- MIS PK, LK, LLK 100% carbon on Museo Silver Rag -- and they've been doing very well so far. Samy's mounted them on Gatorboard (pre-treated with some type of adhesive) with a roller press they have. It'll be interesting to see how they look after a few years.
I might add that purchasers of copies of the images in the local centennial historic photo display have opted for the sepia style prints over the neutral matte paper option. On the other hand the museum director, who has taken classes in issues of archival materials and storage, wants a set of matte paper prints for long term storage.
Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]