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Epson 1400, MIS UT14 inks and Epson Premium Semi Gloss paper

Epson 1400, MIS UT14 inks and Epson Premium Semi Gloss paper

2012-01-06 by Mel

I posted a similar question to this on the QTR forum

I have printed off the 21step.tif using QTR_1400_UT14_IGFS_cool and a blend of QTR_1400_UT14_IGFS_warm and QTR_1400_UT14_IGFS_cool (75% cool and 25% warm and) and find bronzing on the black end of the step wedge. This is only on the 100% patch and only seems to be noticeable in daylight. None of the other patches are affected and it isn't noticeable when viewed in artificial (incandescent) light.

I also did the same using the same profiles with Epson Premium Semi Gloss paper, with the same result.

When using Epson Premium Semi Gloss paper with the Epson 1290 and the 1290 profiles with UT2 inks there was no bronzing - alas the 1290 "gave up the ghost" and is no more.

Is there a satisfactory explanation for this and/or

1. Could UT2 inks be used with the Epson 1400.
2. Is it possible to use Epson Premium Semi Gloss paper with UT14
   inks or is there some incompatibility between ink and paper 

I favour the Epson Premium Semi Gloss paper as it is a brighter white - the Ilford Gold Silk is a creamier paper.

Re: Epson 1400, MIS UT14 inks and Epson Premium Semi Gloss paper

2012-01-06 by Paul

"Mel" <chilterns@...> wrote:
>

> I have printed off the 21step.tif using QTR_1400_UT14_IGFS_cool and a blend of QTR_1400_UT14_IGFS_warm and QTR_1400_UT14_IGFS_cool (75% cool and 25% warm and) and find bronzing on the black end of the step wedge. This is only on the 100% patch and only seems to be noticeable in daylight. None of the other patches are affected and it isn't noticeable when viewed in artificial (incandescent) light.


The 100% patches do sometimes show a different reflective character than the others.  I suspect most of it results from the large pigment load that is on the paper there. Paper type can cause this to vary.  I don't, for example, think I have had any noticeable problems with the MIS PK on Museo Silver Rag, but that is about the only pigment "glossy" printing I do now.  Due to the various pigment on glossy issues (and others) I've switched to dyes for high gloss.

 
> When using Epson Premium Semi Gloss paper with the Epson 1290 and the 1290 profiles with UT2 inks there was no bronzing - alas the 1290 "gave up the ghost" and is no more.


If you were using the UT2 as sold, with Eboni in the K position, the black was being generated by a dark midtone ink that had a much lower pigment load.  That translated into more glop (gloss optimizer is in the MIS ink base) per pigment particle.  That may account for the difference.  You might try experimenting with using the UT14 glop (Y) to see if you can accomplish the same result with that inkset.  You'll probably have to lower the K ink limit or boost as you add glop.

 
> 1. Could UT2 inks be used with the Epson 1400.


Yes, but you'd have to come up with the profiles.  The old UT2 profiles will not work as is.


> 2. Is it possible to use Epson Premium Semi Gloss paper with UT14
>    inks or is there some incompatibility between ink and paper 


I don't know of any incompatibility.


Good luck with the setup.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: Epson 1400, MIS UT14 inks and Epson Premium Semi Gloss paper

2012-01-06 by Mel

Thanks for the advice Paul. At present I'm in the middle of liearizing the UT14 IGFS profiles supplied by David Goldenberg for use on Epson Premium Semi Gloss. 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> "Mel" <chilterns@> wrote:
> >
> 
> > I have printed off the 21step.tif using QTR_1400_UT14_IGFS_cool and a blend of QTR_1400_UT14_IGFS_warm and QTR_1400_UT14_IGFS_cool (75% cool and 25% warm and) and find bronzing on the black end of the step wedge. This is only on the 100% patch and only seems to be noticeable in daylight. None of the other patches are affected and it isn't noticeable when viewed in artificial (incandescent) light.
> 
> 
> The 100% patches do sometimes show a different reflective character than the others.  I suspect most of it results from the large pigment load that is on the paper there. Paper type can cause this to vary.  I don't, for example, think I have had any noticeable problems with the MIS PK on Museo Silver Rag, but that is about the only pigment "glossy" printing I do now.  Due to the various pigment on glossy issues (and others) I've switched to dyes for high gloss.
> 
>  
> > When using Epson Premium Semi Gloss paper with the Epson 1290 and the 1290 profiles with UT2 inks there was no bronzing - alas the 1290 "gave up the ghost" and is no more.
> 
> 
> If you were using the UT2 as sold, with Eboni in the K position, the black was being generated by a dark midtone ink that had a much lower pigment load.  That translated into more glop (gloss optimizer is in the MIS ink base) per pigment particle.  That may account for the difference.  You might try experimenting with using the UT14 glop (Y) to see if you can accomplish the same result with that inkset.  You'll probably have to lower the K ink limit or boost as you add glop.
> 
>  
> > 1. Could UT2 inks be used with the Epson 1400.
> 
> 
> Yes, but you'd have to come up with the profiles.  The old UT2 profiles will not work as is.
> 
> 
> > 2. Is it possible to use Epson Premium Semi Gloss paper with UT14
> >    inks or is there some incompatibility between ink and paper 
> 
> 
> I don't know of any incompatibility.
> 
> 
> Good luck with the setup.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Re: Epson 1400, MIS UT14 inks and Epson Premium Semi Gloss paper

2012-01-07 by David

Mel,
   If, as Paul suggests, the bronzing is due to two much ink, re=linearizing the curves probably won't help too much.  I think you may need to go back a step and reduce the ink limits.

I've not noticed any bronzing with the UT-14 inks on glossy papers, but I also haven't really looked for it under natural light.

David

P.S. I doubt that this is very helpful given your location, but I'll make a standing offer to make UT-14 curves for any paper that someone wants to send me samples of.



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mel" <chilterns@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Thanks for the advice Paul. At present I'm in the middle of liearizing the UT14 IGFS profiles supplied by David Goldenberg for use on Epson Premium Semi Gloss. 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@> wrote:
> >
> > "Mel" <chilterns@> wrote:
> > >
> > 
> > > I have printed off the 21step.tif using QTR_1400_UT14_IGFS_cool and a blend of QTR_1400_UT14_IGFS_warm and QTR_1400_UT14_IGFS_cool (75% cool and 25% warm and) and find bronzing on the black end of the step wedge. This is only on the 100% patch and only seems to be noticeable in daylight. None of the other patches are affected and it isn't noticeable when viewed in artificial (incandescent) light.
> > 
> > 
> > The 100% patches do sometimes show a different reflective character than the others.  I suspect most of it results from the large pigment load that is on the paper there. Paper type can cause this to vary.  I don't, for example, think I have had any noticeable problems with the MIS PK on Museo Silver Rag, but that is about the only pigment "glossy" printing I do now.  Due to the various pigment on glossy issues (and others) I've switched to dyes for high gloss.
> > 
> >  
> > > When using Epson Premium Semi Gloss paper with the Epson 1290 and the 1290 profiles with UT2 inks there was no bronzing - alas the 1290 "gave up the ghost" and is no more.
> > 
> > 
> > If you were using the UT2 as sold, with Eboni in the K position, the black was being generated by a dark midtone ink that had a much lower pigment load.  That translated into more glop (gloss optimizer is in the MIS ink base) per pigment particle.  That may account for the difference.  You might try experimenting with using the UT14 glop (Y) to see if you can accomplish the same result with that inkset.  You'll probably have to lower the K ink limit or boost as you add glop.
> > 
> >  
> > > 1. Could UT2 inks be used with the Epson 1400.
> > 
> > 
> > Yes, but you'd have to come up with the profiles.  The old UT2 profiles will not work as is.
> > 
> > 
> > > 2. Is it possible to use Epson Premium Semi Gloss paper with UT14
> > >    inks or is there some incompatibility between ink and paper 
> > 
> > 
> > I don't know of any incompatibility.
> > 
> > 
> > Good luck with the setup.
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> >
>

Re: Epson 1400, MIS UT14 inks and Epson Premium Semi Gloss paper

2012-01-07 by Mel

Thanks for the advice David. I re linearized your IGFS profile for the Epson Prem Semi Gloss using an X-Rite 810. The plaque of the 810 gives a reading of 0.09 D on the white spot and 1.79 D on the black spot. These are the correct readings for this plaque's reflection standard. When reading "paper white" the 810 also reads 0.09 D, which is what I would expect.

These were the readings I got using the 810, QTR_1400_UT14_IGFS_cool and Epson Premium Semi Gloss paper.

.09
.15
.20
.25
.29
.33
.38
.43
.47
.50
.52
.58
.65
.73
.81
.90
1.01
1.19
1.34
1.53
1.81

I then opened QTR_1400_UT14_IGFS_cool in Curve Creator, cleared  Liearization and entered these figures and saved it as QTR_1400_UT14_EPSG_cool.

Looking at the curve for the result it doesn't look very linear (your curve for the IGFS is virtually a straight line).

What do you think David ?   

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dpgoldenberg33@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Mel,
>    If, as Paul suggests, the bronzing is due to two much ink, re=linearizing the curves probably won't help too much.  I think you may need to go back a step and reduce the ink limits.
> 
> I've not noticed any bronzing with the UT-14 inks on glossy papers, but I also haven't really looked for it under natural light.
> 
> David
> 
> P.S. I doubt that this is very helpful given your location, but I'll make a standing offer to make UT-14 curves for any paper that someone wants to send me samples of.
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mel" <chilterns@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for the advice Paul. At present I'm in the middle of liearizing the UT14 IGFS profiles supplied by David Goldenberg for use on Epson Premium Semi Gloss. 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@> wrote:
> > >
> > > "Mel" <chilterns@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > 
> > > > I have printed off the 21step.tif using QTR_1400_UT14_IGFS_cool and a blend of QTR_1400_UT14_IGFS_warm and QTR_1400_UT14_IGFS_cool (75% cool and 25% warm and) and find bronzing on the black end of the step wedge. This is only on the 100% patch and only seems to be noticeable in daylight. None of the other patches are affected and it isn't noticeable when viewed in artificial (incandescent) light.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > The 100% patches do sometimes show a different reflective character than the others.  I suspect most of it results from the large pigment load that is on the paper there. Paper type can cause this to vary.  I don't, for example, think I have had any noticeable problems with the MIS PK on Museo Silver Rag, but that is about the only pigment "glossy" printing I do now.  Due to the various pigment on glossy issues (and others) I've switched to dyes for high gloss.
> > > 
> > >  
> > > > When using Epson Premium Semi Gloss paper with the Epson 1290 and the 1290 profiles with UT2 inks there was no bronzing - alas the 1290 "gave up the ghost" and is no more.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > If you were using the UT2 as sold, with Eboni in the K position, the black was being generated by a dark midtone ink that had a much lower pigment load.  That translated into more glop (gloss optimizer is in the MIS ink base) per pigment particle.  That may account for the difference.  You might try experimenting with using the UT14 glop (Y) to see if you can accomplish the same result with that inkset.  You'll probably have to lower the K ink limit or boost as you add glop.
> > > 
> > >  
> > > > 1. Could UT2 inks be used with the Epson 1400.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Yes, but you'd have to come up with the profiles.  The old UT2 profiles will not work as is.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > 2. Is it possible to use Epson Premium Semi Gloss paper with UT14
> > > >    inks or is there some incompatibility between ink and paper 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I don't know of any incompatibility.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Good luck with the setup.
> > > 
> > > Paul
> > > www.PaulRoark.com
> > >
> >
>

Re: Epson 1400, MIS UT14 inks and Epson Premium Semi Gloss paper

2012-01-07 by Mel

Continuing where I left off with QTR_1400_UT14_EPSG_cool not producing a very straight "curve" I printed a further 21step.tif with this file, remeasured the steps and entered these measurements into the Linearization Values of Curve Creator. I then saved this as QTR_1400_UT14_EPSG_cool1. When I clicked on Show Curve, to my amazement I got a nearly straight line - just a slight wave in the middle.

I did the same with QTR_1400_UT14_EPSG_warm and called it warm1 and got a good straight line, identical to David's QTR_1400_UT14_IGFS_warm. As this was a better curve than the QTR_1400_UT14_EPSG_cool1 I replaced the cool1 values with the warm1 values to produce the same straight curve and called it cool2.

If the object of the exercise is to produce a straight line "curve", have I, in using this method achieved the right result ?      

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mel" <chilterns@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Thanks for the advice David. I re linearized your IGFS profile for the Epson Prem Semi Gloss using an X-Rite 810. The plaque of the 810 gives a reading of 0.09 D on the white spot and 1.79 D on the black spot. These are the correct readings for this plaque's reflection standard. When reading "paper white" the 810 also reads 0.09 D, which is what I would expect.
> 
> These were the readings I got using the 810, QTR_1400_UT14_IGFS_cool and Epson Premium Semi Gloss paper.
> 
> .09
> .15
> .20
> .25
> .29
> .33
> .38
> .43
> .47
> .50
> .52
> .58
> .65
> .73
> .81
> .90
> 1.01
> 1.19
> 1.34
> 1.53
> 1.81
> 
> I then opened QTR_1400_UT14_IGFS_cool in Curve Creator, cleared  Liearization and entered these figures and saved it as QTR_1400_UT14_EPSG_cool.
> 
> Looking at the curve for the result it doesn't look very linear (your curve for the IGFS is virtually a straight line).
> 
> What do you think David ?   
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dpgoldenberg33@> wrote:
> >
> > Mel,
> >    If, as Paul suggests, the bronzing is due to two much ink, re=linearizing the curves probably won't help too much.  I think you may need to go back a step and reduce the ink limits.
> > 
> > I've not noticed any bronzing with the UT-14 inks on glossy papers, but I also haven't really looked for it under natural light.
> > 
> > David
> > 
> > P.S. I doubt that this is very helpful given your location, but I'll make a standing offer to make UT-14 curves for any paper that someone wants to send me samples of.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mel" <chilterns@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks for the advice Paul. At present I'm in the middle of liearizing the UT14 IGFS profiles supplied by David Goldenberg for use on Epson Premium Semi Gloss. 
> > > 
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "Mel" <chilterns@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > > I have printed off the 21step.tif using QTR_1400_UT14_IGFS_cool and a blend of QTR_1400_UT14_IGFS_warm and QTR_1400_UT14_IGFS_cool (75% cool and 25% warm and) and find bronzing on the black end of the step wedge. This is only on the 100% patch and only seems to be noticeable in daylight. None of the other patches are affected and it isn't noticeable when viewed in artificial (incandescent) light.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > The 100% patches do sometimes show a different reflective character than the others.  I suspect most of it results from the large pigment load that is on the paper there. Paper type can cause this to vary.  I don't, for example, think I have had any noticeable problems with the MIS PK on Museo Silver Rag, but that is about the only pigment "glossy" printing I do now.  Due to the various pigment on glossy issues (and others) I've switched to dyes for high gloss.
> > > > 
> > > >  
> > > > > When using Epson Premium Semi Gloss paper with the Epson 1290 and the 1290 profiles with UT2 inks there was no bronzing - alas the 1290 "gave up the ghost" and is no more.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > If you were using the UT2 as sold, with Eboni in the K position, the black was being generated by a dark midtone ink that had a much lower pigment load.  That translated into more glop (gloss optimizer is in the MIS ink base) per pigment particle.  That may account for the difference.  You might try experimenting with using the UT14 glop (Y) to see if you can accomplish the same result with that inkset.  You'll probably have to lower the K ink limit or boost as you add glop.
> > > > 
> > > >  
> > > > > 1. Could UT2 inks be used with the Epson 1400.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Yes, but you'd have to come up with the profiles.  The old UT2 profiles will not work as is.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > 2. Is it possible to use Epson Premium Semi Gloss paper with UT14
> > > > >    inks or is there some incompatibility between ink and paper 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > I don't know of any incompatibility.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Good luck with the setup.
> > > > 
> > > > Paul
> > > > www.PaulRoark.com
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: Epson 1400, MIS UT14 inks and Epson Premium Semi Gloss paper

2012-01-08 by Mel

Further to,

>I favour the Epson Premium Semi Gloss paper as it is a brighter white - the Ilford Gold Silk is a creamier paper.

I have revised my comments made above. Although the IGFS is a "creamier" paper, compared with either the EPSG or EPL it seems to produce better, brighter whites than the other two and a warmer/neutral print for the same ink settings. I would suggest adjusting the ratio of cold/warm ink settings for the Epson papers to 60%/40% if you required a warmer "look" to your prints than 75%/25% produces. 

The EPSG and EPL papers are a "colder" blue grey white, giving a reading of 0.09 D (the plaque standard on my X-Rite 810), whereas the IGFS gives a reading of .04 D - more reflection and a brighter white.

So I think on balance I now prefer the IGFS paper and by the way, it is heavier, 310gsm, compared with EPSG, at 251gsm and EPL at 250gsm.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mel" <chilterns@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I posted a similar question to this on the QTR forum
> 
> I have printed off the 21step.tif using QTR_1400_UT14_IGFS_cool and a blend of QTR_1400_UT14_IGFS_warm and QTR_1400_UT14_IGFS_cool (75% cool and 25% warm and) and find bronzing on the black end of the step wedge. This is only on the 100% patch and only seems to be noticeable in daylight. None of the other patches are affected and it isn't noticeable when viewed in artificial (incandescent) light.
> 
> I also did the same using the same profiles with Epson Premium Semi Gloss paper, with the same result.
> 
> When using Epson Premium Semi Gloss paper with the Epson 1290 and the 1290 profiles with UT2 inks there was no bronzing - alas the 1290 "gave up the ghost" and is no more.
> 
> Is there a satisfactory explanation for this and/or
> 
> 1. Could UT2 inks be used with the Epson 1400.
> 2. Is it possible to use Epson Premium Semi Gloss paper with UT14
>    inks or is there some incompatibility between ink and paper 
> 
> I favour the Epson Premium Semi Gloss paper as it is a brighter white - the Ilford Gold Silk is a creamier paper.
>

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