Digital BW, The Print

I'm considering setting up a gloss printer, and I'd prefer neutral to mildly warmish tones.  In looking at Aardenburg tests, the piezography MPS don't seem to be doing all that well. As a result, I'm thinking about using HP PK as the basis of the inkset, as it's done very well in Aardenburg's tests.

As Paul's tests awhile show, the HP PK inks bronze quite a bit without special treatment.  The main options seem to be:

A.  Use MIS PK, which has less of a bronzing problem than the HP PK, and use glop to dilute the HP PK.  This would give warmish blacks with the rest of the tonal range being pretty neutral.

B.  Use all HP PK, and dilutions thereof, and use a second run through the printer to apply glop.

(Another option would be to use a spray sealer on the prints, but I don't have the space to make a spray booth.)

The HP PK is available in the HP 771 cartridge, product # CE043A.  It's a 775ml cartridge that sells for around $263.

A. would be the less expensive option, as the HP PK would only be used diluted.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Peter <pdesmidt@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> I'm considering setting up a gloss printer, and I'd prefer neutral to
> mildly warmish tones. In looking at Aardenburg tests, the piezography MPS
> don't seem to be doing all that well. As a result, I'm thinking about using
> HP PK as the basis of the inkset, as it's done very well in Aardenburg's
> tests.
>
> As Paul's tests awhile show, the HP PK inks bronze quite a bit without
> special treatment. The main options seem to be:
>
> A. Use MIS PK, which has less of a bronzing problem than the HP PK, and
> use glop to dilute the HP PK. This would give warmish blacks with the rest
> of the tonal range being pretty neutral.
>

Glop warms the HP PK a bit more than the generic base or the tone of the HP
Gray -- on the order of one Lab b unit, I believe (from memory).


>
> B. Use all HP PK, and dilutions thereof, and use a second run through the
> printer to apply glop.
>

I played with multiple passes and did not like the workflow -- at a minimum
one more step and chance to get pizza wheel marks.   I ended up with fouled
exit rollers that were even pulling carbon off the matte prints.


> (Another option would be to use a spray sealer on the prints, but I don't
> have the space to make a spray booth.)
>

I think spray is the best by far in terms of results, but the toxic spray
and other issues make it rather an un-happy option also.

Getting the artifacts down to an acceptable level on the first pass seems
like a preferable approach.

I set up the 1400 UT14 with a glop channel and never really found it to be
worth much.  I think the glop base plus some paper selection choices gets
the reflective artifacts to an acceptable level.


> A. would be the less expensive option, as the HP PK would only be used
> diluted.
>
> Any thoughts or suggestions?
>
>
Using the MIS Pk also gives you a smoother, more consistent deep shadow
ramp.  HP's coated pigments are glossier.


In general, I think I found the HP-based inks to be a good way to go for a
neutral monotone.  The Epson driver + ICC (QTR Create ICC-RGB produced)
makes a workflow that I think is about as good as it gets.

For a variable-tone approach, the there is a lot more flexibility to go
with QTR and something like the 6K + LM and LC approach I currently have
loaded into a 4000.

To be honest, the recent report of yellowed edges on Museo Silver rag just
about was the last straw for my exploration of the glossy pigments.  For my
uses -- cards and other casual prints -- the 1400 with dyes wins the beauty
contest, and "carbon on cotton" has no serious competition for fine art
wall display.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Peter.

I see that Paul has already given you some feedback. Perhaps I can add a bit
flavour based on my own experiments.

I've experimented with an HP PK based inkset, a Canon 8300 "PK" based
inkset, a combination of the two, and finally the MIS PK based 6KPlus inkset
Paul describes on his website.

The HP PK set consisted of five HP PK dilutions made with MIS GLOP. On
Canson Platine, which is essentially a neutral (a* = 0.1, b* = 0.7) cotton
rag, fiber based gloss paper, I ended up with a warm-toned image with a* and
b* values in the 1.0 to 2.5 range for most of the tonal range. It was a very
pleasant "brown" look given the relatively even mix a* and b* values,
instead of the more yellow look we generally see when b* far exceeds a*.
Dmax on Platine was 5.26 / 2.23 (Lab / Density). Harman Gloss proved even
warmer with the dilute HP PK inkset, having a strong yellow component (b*)
between 35% and 85% with a peak of 6.0. Harman Gloss Dmax was 4.74 / 2.28.

I was going for a more neutral look on Platine, my target media, so I
decided to experiment with Canon's 8300 "PK" ink (they call it BK). Canon's
inkset is quite neutral and the Dmax on gloss media is very high.
Unfortunately, Canon's PK is very warm (typical carbon) and they use their
LK and LLK equivalents (which are indeed neutral to slightly cool) to
deliver neutral blacks on the 8300. I picked up a Canon GY cartridge
(somewhat denser than Canon LK) and made three more dilutions from it for a
five dilution Canon inkset. I ended up with fairly neutral highlights to
mid-tones, but I had a large b* value peaking around 85% due to the very
warm Canon PK. Through some very clever curve building tricks Paul suggested
I was able to develop a near-neutral curve with values largely <1 for a* and
b*. However, bronzing and gloss differential were issues that I could not
offset, even with a spray. Adding some HP dilutions into this made with
Pauls C6 base did not alleviate the bronzing problem, which was at an
unacceptable level.

So, I more recently moved on to Paul's 6KPlus inkset. At first I tried
Canon's PK as the "K", along with the MIS PK dilutions, since I liked
Canon's PK Dmax. I had been able to achieve a Dmax of 3.40 / 2.42 on Platine
and 2.52 / 2.55 on Harman Gloss using the Canon PK, which was very
attractive. However, I was unable to address a non-linearity in the shadows
so I moved to the full MIS 6KPlus inkset as Paul defines it.

The good news is that 6KPlus is working very well for me on Platine. I have
a Dmax of 3.10 / 2.46 using MIS's PK which is excellent, and I have neutral
prints for all intents and purposes (a* and b* values < 1.0 for essentially
the entire tonal range and less than 0.50 for most of that range). There is
a bit of gloss differential in the specular highlights but no bronzing. The
image looks very cohesive, if that makes any sense, since I'm using
dilutions of one ink through the entire tonal range.

I am getting very straight, "bump-free" linearization's from my neutral
curve, which I was unable to get with the other inksets. I think the
overlapping LM and LC curves (required to neutralize the warm MIS PK
dilutions) address the artifacts and smoothes the curve.

I recently made a 16x24 fine art print on Platine using 6KPlus, sprayed it
with ClearJet A2000 gloss and mounted it glassless in an elegant black,
wooden frame. It looks great! I finally have an inkset I'm happy with, and
I'm looking forward to developing some warmer tones, and experimenting with
matte media using 6KPlus and Eboni.

There is one curiosity I've noticed. I get excellent Dmax with MIS PK on
Canson fiber based gloss papers, but the Dmax on other fiber based gloss
papers is not as strong. Here are the ones I've tested.

Canson Platine 2.52 / 2.55  (Lab / Density)
Canson Baryta Photographique 3.92 / 2.36
Harman Gloss Baryta 7.42 / 2.09
Museo Silver Rag (sample roll of latest product) 6.37 / 2.15

There must be something in Canson's coating that meshes well with the MIS
PK.

All of my testing was done on an Epson 2200, although the latest 6KPlus
results noted above (full MIS inkset) were from my Epson 3800. I should
mention that all of the inksets were reasonably clog free, although I had
some problems with the HP GLOP based dilutions (nothing I couldn't live with
however). 6KPlus has been very good in my 3800.

Peter, if you would like more information on any of the above, including
graphs of a* and b* values, just let me know.

Paul, thank you for the help, expertise and encouragement as I went on this
journey. In answering Peter's post I'm also trying to catch you up on how
things have turned out. Don't hesitate to drop me a note if you'd like more
details.

Terry.

On 12-09-04 2:00 PM, "Peter" <pdesmidt@...> wrote:

> I'm considering setting up a gloss printer, and I'd prefer neutral to mildly
> warmish tones.  In looking at Aardenburg tests, the piezography MPS don't seem
> to be doing all that well. As a result, I'm thinking about using HP PK as the
> basis of the inkset, as it's done very well in Aardenburg's tests.
> 
> As Paul's tests awhile show, the HP PK inks bronze quite a bit without special
> treatment.  The main options seem to be:
> 
> A.  Use MIS PK, which has less of a bronzing problem than the HP PK, and use
> glop to dilute the HP PK.  This would give warmish blacks with the rest of the
> tonal range being pretty neutral.
> 
> B.  Use all HP PK, and dilutions thereof, and use a second run through the
> printer to apply glop.
> 
> (Another option would be to use a spray sealer on the prints, but I don't have
> the space to make a spray booth.)
> 
> The HP PK is available in the HP 771 cartridge, product # CE043A.  It's a
> 775ml cartridge that sells for around $263.
> 
> A. would be the less expensive option, as the HP PK would only be used
> diluted.
> 
> Any thoughts or suggestions?

On 09/04/2012 11:19 PM, Paul Roark wrote:

> To be honest, the recent report of yellowed edges on Museo Silver rag just
> about was the last straw for my exploration of the glossy pigments. For my
> uses -- cards and other casual prints -- the 1400 with dyes wins the beauty
> contest, and "carbon on cotton" has no serious competition for fine art
> wall display.

Paul,

There are several good reasons to drop glossy pigment inks like 
bronzing, gloss difference, etc but the yellow edges of Museo Silver Rag 
should not be among them I think.



On mixing HP PK, I have a simple ink set in an HP K5400 4 channel 
printer. MK in black position, PK in Cyan, 1/3 PK in Magenta, 1/9 PK in 
Yellow. The gloss  settings in the HP driver only uses CMY channels, the 
matte settings adds the Black channel. Photoshop curves embedded in 
profiles, printing from Qimage. Ink medium is an OCP alternative gloss 
enhancer for Kodak thermal head printers. PK and MK from expired but 
full Z6100 carts. Print quality is worse than my Z3100 delivers, the 6 
and 9 picoliter droplet size and office printer weaving show. But there 
is less bronzing than the Z3100 or Z3200 delivers, even when their GE is 
used. This printer/ink set combination was from the beginning a trial 
whether quad ink mixing could be done for thermal head printers too and 
it is working without flaws.

On a neutral/cool RC paper HP Premium ID Gloss (Lab 95.2  -1.0  -1.8 in 
SpectrumViz) A typical linearised print made with the inkset above gives a:
Step 000 Lab 95.84 -0.86 -1.62
Step 050 Lab 52.45  0.11 -1.39
Step 100 Lab 05.78  0.37 -2.53

The most extreme a values are at paper white -0.86 and near black 0.83.
The most extreme b values are at step 60 -1.17 and at black -2.53
Big droplets of course which means that the values will change for 
smaller droplet size printers. I can not tweak the color tone range with 
such a limited ink set.



-- 
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

Dinkla Grafische Techniek
Quad, pi\ufffdzografie, gicl\ufffde
www.pigment-print.com

Thank you very much Paul, Terry and Ernst!

Right now, I'm looking for an inkset for a 7600.  Paul has mentioned that
he gets a low dmax with his 4000 and Eboni, a printer of the same
generation as my 7600.

Making an inkset decision is a difficult matter.  I was drawn to the HP ink
because of it's good Aardenburg ratings, resistance to pigment settling,
and lower viscosity, which should mean less clogs.   It sounds like
diluting it with glop would undermine the last quality, and 2nd pass glop
sounds unappealing as well, for the reasons Paul states.

If I had the space for a spray booth, I'd go that way, but I don't.  I do
most of my printing and scanning in the winter. Since I live in Wisconsin,
that means that spraying outdoors will likely not be very feasible.  And
there are questions about the long term qualities of sprays. Sure, they
appear to help prevent ink fading, but do they develop physical problems
over the years such as cracking? Coatings haven't had a great history with
regards to photographs.

Moving to Paul's 5k + LC (My 7600 has 7 ink slots.), I wasn't aware of how
good the Epson M and C are, which is why I didn't investigate the inkset in
detail. It does sound appealing, though.

Terry's investigations are very useful, as I'm hoping to use Canson's
Plantine.  Terry, I see that you sprayed some of your prints for display
without glass.  Would spraying be needed to avoid bronzing and gloss
differential of the prints were mounted behind glass?

My main impetus for this project is to make a series of 10 photos for my
wife's office.  The photos are from Washington State, and they were taken
with a 4x5 view camera.  They're definitely in the F-64 tradition.

Thank you for all of the help!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 12-09-05 3:35 AM, "pdesmidt tds.net" <pdesmidt@...> wrote:

> Right now, I'm looking for an inkset for a 7600.  Paul has mentioned that
> he gets a low dmax with his 4000 and Eboni, a printer of the same
> generation as my 7600.

I got exceptional Dmax with Canon's PK on my 2200, which is the same
generation of printer as your 7600. When I moved to the full 6KPlus set,
using the MIS PK, I unfortunately had problems with a cartridge and with my
old 2200. It was just bad timing on a very old printer, so I decided to go
directly to the 3800 (my ultimate target printer) to test and implement the
full 6KPlus inkset. While I can't confirm the Dmax of MIS PK on a 2200 I
would be surprised if there was an issue. I suspect Paul would tell you that
the 4000 is a bit of a different animal.

> Making an inkset decision is a difficult matter.  I was drawn to the HP ink
> because of it's good Aardenburg ratings, resistance to pigment settling,
> and lower viscosity, which should mean less clogs.   It sounds like
> diluting it with glop would undermine the last quality, and 2nd pass glop
> sounds unappealing as well, for the reasons Paul states.

For perspective, I was prepared to run the GlOP-diluted HP inkset in my
2200. While I did experience more clogging, it was not at a "show stopper"
level. Relatively speaking however, there was more clogging with it.

> Terry's investigations are very useful, as I'm hoping to use Canson's
> Plantine.  Terry, I see that you sprayed some of your prints for display
> without glass.  Would spraying be needed to avoid bronzing and gloss
> differential of the prints were mounted behind glass?

To my eye, bronzing is virtually non-existent. I see very little of it,
other than in large areas of solid black.

Gloss differential is more evident, but only with specular highlights, and
only when the image catches the light the "right" way. Whether that's an
issue will vary from photographer to photographer (and image to image), but
it is something worth assessing. The paper white has less gloss than the
inks. A paper with more gloss would show less gloss differential.

Two or three coats of Premier Art Print Shield addresses all of this. PS is
pretty unobtrusive as far as sprays go, but it is indeed toxic. The A2000
product is a different animal. It leaves a much thicker coat and removes
most, but oddly not all, of the gloss differential.

If it would help, I'd be happy to make a test print for you and pop it in
the mail. Then you can see for yourself what a base print looks like.
Contact me off-list if you're interested.

Terry.

I got very good dmax with my 2200 and Eboni.  My opinion of the 4000 low
matte paper dmax may be limited to that specific machine.

I have found no information on the 7600 Eboni MK dmax.  If someone on the
list could supply that info, it would plug an important hole in our
information.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


 On 12-09-05 3:35 AM, "pdesmidt tds.net" <pdesmidt@...> wrote:
>
> > Right now, I'm looking for an inkset for a 7600. Paul has mentioned that
> > he gets a low dmax with his 4000 and Eboni, a printer of the same
> > generation as my 7600.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Paul Roark <roark.paul@...> wrote:

> **
>
> I have found no information on the 7600 Eboni MK dmax. If someone on the
> list could supply that info, it would plug an important hole in our
> information.
>
> When my refillable cartridges arrive, I'll investigate this.  I have some
Eboni MK, MIS PK and HP PK on hand.

Is Dick Blick the best place to get Arches water color paper?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 9:56 AM, pdesmidt tds.net <pdesmidt@...> wrote:

> **
>
> ...
> Is Dick Blick the best place to get Arches water color paper?
>
>
> Utrecht is cheaper.  I have my first order from them on the way now.  Dick
Blick is a reliable supplier I've been using for years, and their prices
are good, but not at good as
http://www.utrechtart.com/Arches-Bright-White-Watercolor-Paper--10-Hot-Press-140lb-300gsm-22x30-sheets-MP20143-i1008482.utrecht


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ernst,


> There are several good reasons to drop glossy pigment inks like 
> bronzing, gloss difference, etc 

I definitely agree with that position.

> but the yellow edges of Museo
> Silver Rag should not be among them I think.

See the post I just made of my observations of Clayton's samples.

You may well be right.  However, because I have been using Museo, things like this are a source of anxiety.  I'm not sure I trust RC papers for "fine art" or where serious longevity is important.  Then again, only one notch lower is my concern for the coatings even on matte papers.

 
> On mixing HP PK, I have a simple ink set in an HP K5400 4 channel 
> printer. MK in black position, PK in Cyan, 1/3 PK in Magenta, 
> 1/9 PK in Yellow... 
> Ink medium is an OCP alternative gloss 
> enhancer for Kodak thermal head printers...
> it is working without flaws.


I hope it continues to work well.  Being able to mix custom B&W inksets for thermal heads could open up some very interesting possibilities. 

Is there any information on the OCP gloss enhancer?

This seems to be a product from Germany.  The first hit on a Google search was -- 
http://www.octopus-office.de/en/shop/details/c/printer-ink-for-kodak-10-c/p/ocp-gloss-optimizer-for-kodak-10-c/

And for a possible US source, see -- 
http://www.rjettek.com/Kodak/1935766-Gloss-Optimizer/

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks for the tip!  I just put in an order.  If worse comes to worse,
my daughters will have some very nice water color paper.

On 09/05/2012 07:31 PM, Paul wrote:

> Is there any information on the OCP gloss enhancer?
>
> This seems to be a product from Germany. The first hit on a Google
> search was --
> http://www.octopus-office.de/en/shop/details/c/printer-ink-for-kodak-10-c/p/ocp-gloss-optimizer-for-kodak-10-c/
>
> And for a possible US source, see --
> http://www.rjettek.com/Kodak/1935766-Gloss-Optimizer/
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

The German link is where I got it. Bought 2 liters. Good price for EU 
users too if compared to US sources like MIS GO or EU distributors of 
Image Specialists' alternative HP Vivera Gloss Enhancer (price 4x). It 
might work for Epsons too but I am not sure whether the rheology is 
optimal for pi\ufffdzo heads then, OCP might have an alternative Epson R1900 
gloss optimizer. Did not check the last.

If the American link describes the use for the same Kodak printers it 
will be the same medium.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

Dinkla Grafische Techniek
Quad, pi\ufffdzografie, gicl\ufffde
www.pigment-print.com

On 09/05/2012 07:31 PM, Paul wrote:

> See the post I just made of my observations of Clayton's samples.

Paul,

I only see a recent Pamela Holt message on that subject and I do not 
want to draw the wrong conclusions ......


-- 
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

Dinkla Grafische Techniek
Quad, pi\ufffdzografie, gicl\ufffde
www.pigment-print.com