Digital BW, The Print

I'm still quite new the the whole process of EB6 with an Epson 1430.

I'm partly satisfied with the results. I made many test with images that I printed in a darkroom so I can compare. Up to now, I'm very close.

For each print, I added a 21 steps greyscale and for easier evaluation I made five bigger squares in PhotoShop that I filled with (0-0-0, 5-5-5 and so on) blacks; I added three squares (250-250-250,245-245-245 and 240-240-240).

On the print, the lighter squares are perfect but the black ones are mushy and difficult to evaluate. Seems that from 0-0-0 to 25-25-25 I get the same black or almost.

Is there a way, with the Epson driver (I'm on Red River Polar Matte paper) to compensate so I can have a little bit more separation in the blacks?

I know that this is probably incomplete or not clear but if it is asked, I'll try my best to feed in the missing info.

Many thanks

Is there a reason you're not using QtRip?

On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 8:27 AM, jcphoto52 <jacques.caron@...>wrote:

> I'm still quite new the the whole process of EB6 with an Epson 1430.
>
> I'm partly satisfied with the results. I made many test with images that I
> printed in a darkroom so I can compare. Up to now, I'm very close.
>
> For each print, I added a 21 steps greyscale and for easier evaluation I
> made five bigger squares in PhotoShop that I filled with (0-0-0, 5-5-5 and
> so on) blacks; I added three squares (250-250-250,245-245-245 and
> 240-240-240).
>
> On the print, the lighter squares are perfect but the black ones are mushy
> and difficult to evaluate. Seems that from 0-0-0 to 25-25-25 I get the same
> black or almost.
>
> Is there a way, with the Epson driver (I'm on Red River Polar Matte paper)
> to compensate so I can have a little bit more separation in the blacks?
>
> I know that this is probably incomplete or not clear but if it is asked,
> I'll try my best to feed in the missing info.
>
> Many thanks
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND
> �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
>  �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR
> THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
> GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
> GROUP.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Mr.Bergstrom

QtRIP? I downloaded an evaluation version, installed it but... as Mr.Roark wrote, the Epson driver is not so bad and it's a good starting point. Moreover, I thought that the learning curve was steep enough to begin with (I miss the darkroom!).

I don't know exactly what it's like using the QTRIP program but since I read all the post in the recent year from this group, I'm a bit afraid that, without a Color Munki, X-Rite, Spyder and other apparatus, I can't really evaluate my prints and make the necessary corrections, be it making ICCs, curves and ink saturation!

I'll read the "how-to" that came with the demo of QTR and see if this is a solution for me.

Thanks again

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Pete Bergstrom <petebergstrom@...> wrote:

>
> Is there a reason you're not using QtRip?
> 
> On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 8:27 AM, jcphoto52 <jacques.caron@...>wrote:
> 
> > I'm still quite new the the whole process of EB6 with an Epson 1430.
> >
> > I'm partly satisfied with the results. I made many test with images that I
> > printed in a darkroom so I can compare. Up to now, I'm very close.
> >
> > For each print, I added a 21 steps greyscale and for easier evaluation I
> > made five bigger squares in PhotoShop that I filled with (0-0-0, 5-5-5 and
> > so on) blacks; I added three squares (250-250-250,245-245-245 and
> > 240-240-240).
> >
> > On the print, the lighter squares are perfect but the black ones are mushy
> > and difficult to evaluate. Seems that from 0-0-0 to 25-25-25 I get the same
> > black or almost.
> >
> > Is there a way, with the Epson driver (I'm on Red River Polar Matte paper)
> > to compensate so I can have a little bit more separation in the blacks?
> >
> > I know that this is probably incomplete or not clear but if it is asked,
> > I'll try my best to feed in the missing info.
> >
> > Many thanks
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> > they are often being updated.
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> > page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> > them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> > membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> > the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> > and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> > section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> >
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> > YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> > EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> > PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> >  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> > ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR
> > THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> > UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> > STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
> > GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
> > GROUP.
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

jcphoto52 <jacques.caron@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> ... EB6 with an Epson 1430.
>
> ... from 0-0-0 to 25-25-25 I get the same black or almost.
>
Note the graphs on page 6 of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-6.pdf .

The most common workspace -- gray gamma 2.2 and Adobe RGB -- compress the
shadow tones significantly.  So, what you are seeing is not uncommon.  QTR,
on the other hand, uses a straight line curve.  Both workflows can be
use successfully  but proper profiles need to be used, and the monitor may
need to be calibrated or otherwise adjusted.

Usually, the goal is to have the print match the relative densities that
are displayed on the monitor.  That is what monitor calibration and ICCs in
a "color managed" workflow are supposed to do.  QTR is not a "color
managed" workflow but there are a variety of methods to accomplish the same
thing when using that approach.   (In
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-4-Plus.pdf I have more on QTR
profiling.)

I recommend that people use Adobe RGB and Gray Gamma 2.2 as their working
spaces in Photoshop.  (Edit>Color Setings pulls up the box that allows you
to set the Working Spaces.  I set RGB to Adobe RGB (1998) and Gray to Gray
Gamma 2.2.)

As noted in the PDFs, the Epson driver's built in "color controls" profiles
can come close to the usual gray gamma 2.2 density distribution, including
the compression of the shadow tones.  However, the Epson driver has only
limited controls to modify the shape of the curve.  Particularly with the
modern, very bright LCD monitors, matching the monitor to the print may not
happen with everything set at the manufacturer's default settings.

While I think most will want to be able to at least "linearize" existing
profiles, which can be down with a flatbed scanner (see QTR's Step Wedge
Tool and Readme file), it might be easier, initially, if one is using just
the Epson "color controls" to adjust the monitor via its controls so that
it matches the prints.  Frankly, I have different monitor control settings
for different printing and viewing circumstances.  B&W prints can be quite
sensitive to the light level of the viewing environment.

I have also used Photoshop image adjustment curves to adjust between what
the monitor shows and how the print will look.  For example, since I edit
in Gray Gamma 2.2, I apply a curve that is in my Profile Zip files to
adjust for the difference between the color managed ICC workflow and QTR
(GG22-to-QTR.acv).   One can also make a curve that is the inverse of this
one to open up the shadows more.

Again, ideally, in a color managed workflow the print would match the
monitor.  However, in the real world, the LCD monitors are set too bright
for most print viewing.  The controls on the the monitor and/or its driver
may be better tools than exist in the Epson driver's "color controls."

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Mr.Roark
I looked closely to your page 6 graph with EB6; I can see the compression that actually gives me those blacks.
I'm into finishing a curve that would be applied just prior to printing as my monitor is quite a bit off from the print. You're right about modern monitors. Mine is quite bright (iMac) and maybe I should try to match it with my Epson printer so to have a better preview of what will be printed.

Last thing, is it very important to print a flattened image? I save all my Photoshop files with layers and just before printing, should I flatten them.

Thanks

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Paul Roark <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>

> 
> The most common workspace -- gray gamma 2.2 and Adobe RGB -- compress the
> shadow tones significantly.  So, what you are seeing is not uncommon.  QTR,
> on the other hand, uses a straight line curve.  Both workflows can be
> use successfully  but proper profiles need to be used, and the monitor may
> need to be calibrated or otherwise adjusted.
>

jcphoto52 <jacques.caron@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> ... is it very important to print a flattened image? I save all my
> Photoshop files with layers and just before printing, should I flatten them.
>
> ...
>

There are probably others who can answer this better than I can, but my
experience and expectation is that the Epson driver will print the active
layers and not the hidden ones.  I think QTR flattens files.

When I use QTR, I, personally, make a "QTR" printing file that has
everything flattened, a curve applied, and often the image changed to 8 bit
per channel.  Since the file is just for printing, I make it as small and
pre-converted as possible to eliminate variables and, simply, make smaller
files that take less space and process faster.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oh, I understand your situation well, and I don't want to derail the
progress you've made. The Photoshop curve stuff looks more complicated to
me.

I've been meaning to write up my recent QTR calibration experience and I'll
try to get to it soon, but what I found is that with a flatbed scanner
(Epson 4870 in my case) I could calibrate a new set of EB6 inks (my own
dilution ratios) in about 4 prints, and the procedure is fairly simple.
It's drawn from Paul Roark's writings, but in my simple experience I think
it can be executed more simply than as I saw it described.

At the risk of looking like a fool because I lucked into a working
solution, here's a very abbreviated description.

While I don't have immediate access to my notes and the spreadsheets (which
I'll put up with the write-up), the first step is to choose an ink limit
for the black. You can efficiently do this with a 21-step image and QTR's
calibration mode. I tried 75%, 50% and 25%. I think with full-strength
Eboni, the paper I'm using and my printer (Epson 2200, a 7-cartridge, large
drop model) I ended up with about 25-35%. I was aiming for the 21-step
image to reach maximum black about 3/4 of the way through the 21 steps so
there was still some latitude on the darkest tones. I'll be experimenting
with this more, but this 25% result suggests I don't need to use
full-strength Eboni at the darkest cartridge position, at least for this
paper.

Next, using this overall ink limit, I printed the calibration mode image
that QTR provides. I let it dry, then scanned it (RGB). Using (in my case)
Photoshop Elements, I then measured the "relative density" reading of each
patch (green channel, 5x5 pixel sample) and recorded it in a spreadsheet.
It ended up being 21 columns x 7 rows of values but I think it can probably
be reduced by about half. I do think it's important for the full sheet of
the calibration image be scanned as one unit, because we're using relative
comparisons.

For each gray cartridge other than the black (note that by definition this
becomes 0-100%), this next step is to determine an ink limit for the
cartridge. I did this by choosing the darkest patch reading where the
change from one to the next stopped changing and then using that numeric
"relative density" value to look up the ink limit percentage from the black
patches. The idea here is that the gray relative density number can be
matched to a black-channel relative density number (interpolating as
needed), resulting in a number that ranges between 0% and 100% which is the
ink limit for that channel. Plug all of those ink limits into QTR's curve
creator, save it and then use it to print your images. To verify the
smoothness of gradients, I like using the test images here:
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/black_and_white_test.html .
Paul's writings also recommend linearization, but I can't tell if I need to
do that yet.

Best regards,
Pete

On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 10:27 AM, jcphoto52
<jacques.caron@videotron.qc.ca>wrote:

> Hi Mr.Bergstrom
>
> QtRIP? I downloaded an evaluation version, installed it but... as Mr.Roark
> wrote, the Epson driver is not so bad and it's a good starting point.
> Moreover, I thought that the learning curve was steep enough to begin with
> (I miss the darkroom!).
>
> I don't know exactly what it's like using the QTRIP program but since I
> read all the post in the recent year from this group, I'm a bit afraid
> that, without a Color Munki, X-Rite, Spyder and other apparatus, I can't
> really evaluate my prints and make the necessary corrections, be it making
> ICCs, curves and ink saturation!
>
> I'll read the "how-to" that came with the demo of QTR and see if this is a
> solution for me.
>
> Thanks again
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Pete Bergstrom
> <petebergstrom@...> wrote:
> >
> > Is there a reason you're not using QtRip?
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 8:27 AM, jcphoto52 <jacques.caron@...>wrote:
> >
> > > I'm still quite new the the whole process of EB6 with an Epson 1430.
> > >
> > > I'm partly satisfied with the results. I made many test with images
> that I
> > > printed in a darkroom so I can compare. Up to now, I'm very close.
> > >
> > > For each print, I added a 21 steps greyscale and for easier evaluation
> I
> > > made five bigger squares in PhotoShop that I filled with (0-0-0, 5-5-5
> and
> > > so on) blacks; I added three squares (250-250-250,245-245-245 and
> > > 240-240-240).
> > >
> > > On the print, the lighter squares are perfect but the black ones are
> mushy
> > > and difficult to evaluate. Seems that from 0-0-0 to 25-25-25 I get the
> same
> > > black or almost.
> > >
> > > Is there a way, with the Epson driver (I'm on Red River Polar Matte
> paper)
> > > to compensate so I can have a little bit more separation in the blacks?
> > >
> > > I know that this is probably incomplete or not clear but if it is
> asked,
> > > I'll try my best to feed in the missing info.
> > >
> > > Many thanks
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
> resources as
> > > they are often being updated.
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> > > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this
> same
> > > page.
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> keep
> > > them short.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> > > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> > > membership without notice.
> > > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> > > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed
> from
> > > the membership.
> > > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> > > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
> Owner
> > > and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> > > section:
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > >
> > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT
> > > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> > > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE
> TO
> > > YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> > > EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> > > PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> > >  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE
> BEEN
> > > ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE
> USE OR
> > > THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> > > UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA;
> (iii)
> > > STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO
> > > GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO
> > > GROUP.
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND
> �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
>  �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR
> THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
> GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
> GROUP.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Mr.Bergstrom

This "ink limit" manipulation is done only with QTR?

I'll "dig" into your recipe to see what I can do to improve my printings. I already downloaded the picture from Northlight, just in case.

More experiences ahead but... I like that a lot!


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Pete Bergstrom <petebergstrom@...> wrote:

>
> Oh, I understand your situation well, and I don't want to derail the
> progress you've made. The Photoshop curve stuff looks more complicated to
> me.
> 
> I've been meaning to write up my recent QTR calibration experience and I'll
> try to get to it soon, but what I found is that with a flatbed scanner
> (Epson 4870 in my case) I could calibrate a new set of EB6 inks (my own
> dilution ratios) in about 4 prints, and the procedure is fairly simple.
> It's drawn from Paul Roark's writings, but in my simple experience I think
> it can be executed more simply than as I saw it described.
>

Right, the ink limits are just a QTR adjustment. The photo needs to be
worked into a grayscale 2.2 TIFF ahead of printing, but the idea is that
after calibration the pixel values shouldn't have to be adjusted for
different ink/paper combinations.

I haven't worked out how this applies to variable tone inksets (if it can
at all). But then, in the wet darkroom I just liked Oriental Seagull graded
papers and was willing to work within their limits.

Pete

On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 3:52 PM, jcphoto52 <jacques.caron@videotron.qc.ca>wrote:

> Thanks Mr.Bergstrom
>
> This "ink limit" manipulation is done only with QTR?
>
> I'll "dig" into your recipe to see what I can do to improve my printings.
> I already downloaded the picture from Northlight, just in case.
>
> More experiences ahead but... I like that a lot!
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Pete Bergstrom
> <petebergstrom@...> wrote:
> >
> > Oh, I understand your situation well, and I don't want to derail the
> > progress you've made. The Photoshop curve stuff looks more complicated to
> > me.
> >
> > I've been meaning to write up my recent QTR calibration experience and
> I'll
> > try to get to it soon, but what I found is that with a flatbed scanner
> > (Epson 4870 in my case) I could calibrate a new set of EB6 inks (my own
> > dilution ratios) in about 4 prints, and the procedure is fairly simple.
> > It's drawn from Paul Roark's writings, but in my simple experience I
> think
> > it can be executed more simply than as I saw it described.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND
> �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
>  �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR
> THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
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> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
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>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

So I installed QTR with the 1400 script (I think that it is the same as the 1430) and boy, am I surprised?!? I don't quite understand all the options that are left to choose from in Photoshop.
Select the printer, color management or not, soft proof and so on.

Actually I followed the pdf that comes with QTR and when I'm ready to print (having chose the QTR 1400 printer) what I have is a window telling me that x% is being printed and when it reaches 100%, it says "printer is occupied". How bizarre!

I printed with Photoshop managing color, using the QTR_1400_EP paper and I get the same result as I had before.

I think I'll have to read a bit more to understand the whole process!


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Pete Bergstrom <petebergstrom@...> wrote:

>
> Right, the ink limits are just a QTR adjustment. The photo needs to be
> worked into a grayscale 2.2 TIFF ahead of printing, but the idea is that
> after calibration the pixel values shouldn't have to be adjusted for
> different ink/paper combinations.
> 
> I haven't worked out how this applies to variable tone inksets (if it can
> at all). But then, in the wet darkroom I just liked Oriental Seagull graded
> papers and was willing to work within their limits.
> 
> Pete
> 
> On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 3:52 PM, jcphoto52 <jacques.caron@...>wrote:
> 
> > Thanks Mr.Bergstrom
> >
> > This "ink limit" manipulation is done only with QTR?
> >
> > I'll "dig" into your recipe to see what I can do to improve my printings.
> > I already downloaded the picture from Northlight, just in case.
> >
> > More experiences ahead but... I like that a lot!
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Pete Bergstrom
> > <petebergstrom@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Oh, I understand your situation well, and I don't want to derail the
> > > progress you've made. The Photoshop curve stuff looks more complicated to
> > > me.
> > >
> > > I've been meaning to write up my recent QTR calibration experience and
> > I'll
> > > try to get to it soon, but what I found is that with a flatbed scanner
> > > (Epson 4870 in my case) I could calibrate a new set of EB6 inks (my own
> > > dilution ratios) in about 4 prints, and the procedure is fairly simple.
> > > It's drawn from Paul Roark's writings, but in my simple experience I
> > think
> > > it can be executed more simply than as I saw it described.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
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> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Pete Bergstrom <petebergstrom@...> wrote:
> ... I found is that with a flatbed scanner
> (Epson 4870 in my case) I could calibrate a new set of EB6 inks (my own
> dilution ratios) in about 4 prints, ...

> ..., the first step is to choose an ink limit for the black.
> You can efficiently do this with a 21-step image and QTR's
> calibration mode. ...

Yes.

> I ended up with about 25-35%.

I made a profile for Red River Polar Matte and found the K ink limit to be 35.

The new QTR profile as well as an ICC for this paper are now in
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/1400-Eb6-Profiles.zip .


> Next, using this overall ink limit, I printed the calibration mode image
> that QTR provides. I let it dry, then scanned it (RGB). Using (in my case)
> Photoshop Elements, I then measured the "relative density" reading of each
> patch (green channel, 5x5 pixel sample) ...

I usually find that the lighter inks can handle a higher ink limit
than the denser black ink.  As such, once you find the K ink limit,
you can set that as the default and leave all the other ink limit
boxes blank so that they use the default/K ink limit.  Then scanning
the entire second Calibration Mode print that was made at that default
ink limit makes finding the relative densities in Photoshop, using the
eyedropper, a very easy approach.  Hopefully a scanner is going to be
consistent enough that you could simply measure the 100% patch for
each lighter ink with the eyedropper and then see where that density
occurs on the black ink 21-step.  That would give you the relative
densities for that same default ink limit.

The QTR profile for Red River Polar Matte used this approach and
linearized quite well.  It did need linearization, but this is normal.

For the ICC I used the general NCA correction curve that is in the Zip
file.  With newer software, ICCs always use the driver set to ICM/OFF
(No Color Adjustment).  With that setting, the 21-step test print
makes a curve that has too steep a step between 95% and 100%.  That is
why the NCA correction curve, which is generic, helps with the
process.  It is embedded in the ICC by dropping it into Create ICC-RGB
along with the Lab L data.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Thank you very much Mr.Roark for the Polar Matte profile. The minute I'll stop fighting with the installation of QTRip over my network, I'll try it for sure. I'll see also what I can do with the ink limit so I can get better definition in the blacks.

Thanks again

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Paul Roark <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> Pete Bergstrom <petebergstrom@...> wrote:
> > ... I found is that with a flatbed scanner
> > (Epson 4870 in my case) I could calibrate a new set of EB6 inks (my own
> > dilution ratios) in about 4 prints, ...
> 
> > ..., the first step is to choose an ink limit for the black.
> > You can efficiently do this with a 21-step image and QTR's
> > calibration mode. ...
> 
> Yes.
> 
> > I ended up with about 25-35%.
> 
> I made a profile for Red River Polar Matte and found the K ink limit to be 35.
> 
> The new QTR profile as well as an ICC for this paper are now in
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/1400-Eb6-Profiles.zip .
> 
> 
> > Next, using this overall ink limit, I printed the calibration mode image
> > that QTR provides. I let it dry, then scanned it (RGB). Using (in my case)
> > Photoshop Elements, I then measured the "relative density" reading of each
> > patch (green channel, 5x5 pixel sample) ...
> 
> I usually find that the lighter inks can handle a higher ink limit
> than the denser black ink.  As such, once you find the K ink limit,
> you can set that as the default and leave all the other ink limit
> boxes blank so that they use the default/K ink limit.  Then scanning
> the entire second Calibration Mode print that was made at that default
> ink limit makes finding the relative densities in Photoshop, using the
> eyedropper, a very easy approach.  Hopefully a scanner is going to be
> consistent enough that you could simply measure the 100% patch for
> each lighter ink with the eyedropper and then see where that density
> occurs on the black ink 21-step.  That would give you the relative
> densities for that same default ink limit.
> 
> The QTR profile for Red River Polar Matte used this approach and
> linearized quite well.  It did need linearization, but this is normal.
> 
> For the ICC I used the general NCA correction curve that is in the Zip
> file.  With newer software, ICCs always use the driver set to ICM/OFF
> (No Color Adjustment).  With that setting, the 21-step test print
> makes a curve that has too steep a step between 95% and 100%.  That is
> why the NCA correction curve, which is generic, helps with the
> process.  It is embedded in the ICC by dropping it into Create ICC-RGB
> along with the Lab L data.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>