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Digital BW, The Print

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what do you think?

Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-13 by Pamela

Pretty pretentious review if you ask me
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On Dec 12, 2014, at 6:55 PM, Rick Hawkins Java macjava@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>
> folks,
>
> i thought this photo expensive, to say the least
>
> http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2014/dec/10/most-expensive-photograph-ever-hackneyed-tasteless?CMP=share_btn_fb <http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2014/dec/10/most-expensive-photograph-ever-hackneyed-tasteless?CMP=share_btn_fb>
>
>
> thanks,
>
> xx rick
> Rick Hawkins
>
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-13 by Shoshanna Moser Rowland

How fortunate that we are not dependent on this sublimely ignorant ass to define for us what is and is not art.

And thank you for reminding me why I read the Times, the Financial Times, and the Daily Telegraph, and thoroughly ignore the drivel of the Guardian-- which I've long since come to view as little more than a quick read for those who can't.

Best wishes,

Shoshanna
Gold Beach - South Coast of Oregon



On 12/12/2014 5:55 PM, Rick Hawkins Java macjava@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] wrote:
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Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-13 by paul.ozzello@...

Being able to sell a digital print for 6 million makes him anything but an ignorant ass. You may not like his work or care for his style, or his persona, but Peter Lik is a talented landscape photographer : great technique, clean and balanced compositions, excellent printing skills, attention to detail, and perfect presentation. The rest is all subjective. And I'm not sure boasting about getting your news from the main stream media is of any relevance.

Re: what do you think?

2014-12-13 by richard@...

The guardian article smells like link bait to me. The picture in question smells even worse.

Most of the "worlds most expensive" photographs are almost always sold at auction, where there is a clear record of the transaction. Auctions might not actually disclose who the buyer was, but the sale can be confirmed. This "press release" from Lik claiming to have made and sold 4 of the worlds most expensive photographs to some 'undisclosed' private collector seems to be more hype than self-promotion.

The guardian article, using this press release to bash photography as an art makes the old tired (and wrong) comment on the ubiquity of cameras and photographs and how it can never be art. The Forbes article is a much better comment about the long term "value" of an artist and how the work is valued in the secondary market ( http://www.forbes.com/sites/kathryntully/2014/12/12/is-this-the-worlds-most-expensive-photograph/ ).

If this is true, I think the buyer should have waited a few days and put that 6.5 mil to get some real masterworks: http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/2014/175-masterworks-n09275.html

Richard Boutwell

Re: [Digital BW] Re: what do you think?

2014-12-13 by David Kachel

Lik has hit on a scammer's pot of gold. That being that the public does not
have a clue what fine art photography is, and therefore are easily suckered
by gawdy, oversaturated, vacation pictures. The rest is just showmanship
and, I suspect, a lot of downright fraud.


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com
BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com
EMAIL: david@...

PO Box  93
Fort Davis, TX 79734
(432) 386-5787

Re: what do you think?

2014-12-13 by Richard Eskin

Actually the counterpoint by Sean O'Hagan was quite good and worth reading.

--
Richard Eskin
Richard.Eskin@...
410-825-2503
443-415-0349 (cell)

RichEskinPhoto

We can see the human spirit of a particular age expressed in the landscape, and we can comprehend it with the camera. -- August Sander during a 1931 lecture on the ability of photography to help make sense of one’s environment and circumstances.

A room hung with pictures is a room hung with thoughts. -- Joshua Reynolds

“A clear vision, backed by definite plans, gives you a tremendous feeling of confidence and personal power.” — Brian Tracy

Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-13 by Gary Brown

I think what most of you are not getting, is that its not about the photography, but the promotion. I think most of us agree that Peter Lik’s photography is not that special. I think someone put it as “oversaturated vacation pictures” I would agree. In terms of self promotion he is extraordinary. I think he has more than 20 galleries that sell only his work. 
It is unfortunate that success in the art world often comes to those that yell the loudest and the most often.

Gary

baffin@...
www.garyallenbrownphoto.com
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From: mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2014 7:39 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

  

How fortunate that we are not dependent on this sublimely ignorant ass to define for us what is and is not art.

And thank you for reminding me why I read the Times, the Financial Times, and the Daily Telegraph, and thoroughly ignore the drivel of the Guardian-- which I've long since come to view as little more than a quick read for those who can't.  

Best wishes,

Shoshanna
Gold Beach - South Coast of Oregon



On 12/12/2014 5:55 PM, Rick Hawkins Java macjava@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] wrote:

    
  folks,

  i thought this photo expensive, to say the least

  http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2014/dec/10/most-expensive-photograph-ever-hackneyed-tasteless?CMP=share_btn_fb 


  thanks,

  xx rick
  Rick Hawkins



------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-13 by John Castronovo

Does the name Thomas Kinkade ring a bell? The pretend art world loves a good con it seems.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m 
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2014 12:36 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?




I think what most of you are not getting, is that its not about the photography, but the promotion. I think most of us agree that Peter Lik’s photography is not that special. I think someone put it as “oversaturated vacation pictures” I would agree. In terms of self promotion he is extraordinary. I think he has more than 20 galleries that sell only his work. 
It is unfortunate that success in the art world often comes to those that yell the loudest and the most often.

Gary

baffin@...
www.garyallenbrownphoto.com 

From: mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m 
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2014 7:39 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

  

How fortunate that we are not dependent on this sublimely ignorant ass to define for us what is and is not art.

And thank you for reminding me why I read the Times, the Financial Times, and the Daily Telegraph, and thoroughly ignore the drivel of the Guardian-- which I've long since come to view as little more than a quick read for those who can't.  

Best wishes,

Shoshanna
Gold Beach - South Coast of Oregon



On 12/12/2014 5:55 PM, Rick Hawkins Java macjava@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] wrote:

    
  folks,

  i thought this photo expensive, to say the least

  http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2014/dec/10/most-expensive-photograph-ever-hackneyed-tasteless?CMP=share_btn_fb 


  thanks,

  xx rick
  Rick Hawkins



------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-14 by David Kachel

Does the name Thomas Kinkade ring a bell? The pretend art world loves a good
con it seems. 

Thank you for that very apt analogy. Wish I had thought of it.



David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com
BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com
EMAIL: david@...

PO Box  93
Fort Davis, TX 79734
(432) 386-5787

Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-14 by Tony Sleep

At that price, questions about 'art' or the quality of the photo are 
irrelevant. Nobody is buying because they like it, or is some transcendent 
setting-aside of the veil between us and reality, it is simply a 
speculative investment bet to do better than oil futures or 470lb of gold 
bullion.
--
Regards
Tony Sleep

Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-14 by Gary Brown

Actually at todays price 470Ib of Gold is worth over 
9,000.000.00......................
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message----- 
From: Tony Sleep TonySleep@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2014 7:05 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

At that price, questions about 'art' or the quality of the photo are
irrelevant. Nobody is buying because they like it, or is some transcendent
setting-aside of the veil between us and reality, it is simply a
speculative investment bet to do better than oil futures or 470lb of gold
bullion.
--
Regards
Tony Sleep


------------------------------------

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Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-14 by Douglas Taylor

An earlier post included a link to an article at Forbes.com, and the author of that article said there was no secondary market for Peter Lik photography.


Sincerely, DougTaylor


Sent from my iPad
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> On Dec 13, 2014, at 9:05 PM, Tony Sleep TonySleep@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> At that price, questions about 'art' or the quality of the photo are
> irrelevant. Nobody is buying because they like it, or is some transcendent
> setting-aside of the veil between us and reality, it is simply a
> speculative investment bet to do better than oil futures or 470lb of gold
> bullion.
> --
> Regards
> Tony Sleep
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-14 by John Castronovo

It's sadly true that most buyers of expensive art are solely interested in 
the investment potential and they really don't care about the content or 
artistry, so long as it isn't offensive to their tastes. Art appreciation 
means something else for them.

We live in a topsy turvy world. In the world of music, fine orchestras are 
starving while DJ's are getting rich. The country is full of people who have 
tons of money and the aesthetic values of a hamster.

This sale is probably just a made up marketing story, but I wouldn't be 
surprised if some fool actually did pay 6.5 million. It's a nice print and 
I'm sure it was executed well by the lab that made it for him, but it's far 
from unique and I'm sorry, photos laminated to Plexiglas just aren't worth 
that kind of money. I used to make lots of them for photographers and 
artists and it's nothing either new or unique, but buyers who don't know any 
better think they are.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message----- 
From: 'Gary Brown' baffin@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2014 1:50 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

Actually at todays price 470Ib of Gold is worth over
9,000.000.00......................

-----Original Message----- 
From: Tony Sleep TonySleep@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2014 7:05 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

At that price, questions about 'art' or the quality of the photo are
irrelevant. Nobody is buying because they like it, or is some transcendent
setting-aside of the veil between us and reality, it is simply a
speculative investment bet to do better than oil futures or 470lb of gold
bullion.
--
Regards
Tony Sleep


------------------------------------

------------------------------------

Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\ufffd in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND
\ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND
\ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links





------------------------------------

------------------------------------

Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as 
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same 
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Please follow these basic guidelines:
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them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. 
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the 
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W 
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from 
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and 
Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\ufffd in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND 
\ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU 
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY 
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, 
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND 
\ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE 
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY 
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR 
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY 
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links

Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-15 by Mike Keller

Lik is quite talented, and there's no doubting that his work is technically good and would look great on most anyone's walls. As for "art," there's lots of opinions about what qualifies as "art," and you almost have to define that term before you can even start arguing about it. There's commercial art which is sold through gallery businesses, and those folks are usually catering to homes and businesses that want good stuff on their walls. There's art investors, folks who buy to both enjoy and resell later, and then there's art that belongs on the walls of MoMA, ICP, Hirschorn etc. At $6+ million I'd expect the artwork to be MoMA quality, but I don't see that. But it's not my money either.

But there's also the question of whether you can legitimately call this a "sale" at all. http://petapixel.com/2014/12/10/expensive-photo-world-best-marketing-stunt/

BTW, the video at the link discussing art photography sales is interesting, and I generally agree with her.

RE: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-15 by Jim Bechtel

Lik is , in my humble opinion, incredible.. He has sold several pieces for major money.. but more then that , to me anyway, he’s just good at it. Jeff’s sale, while I get that’s it huge, is different.. It’s actually sort of an excerpt from his video effort.. The style and deliverables of Lik and Frost are totally different as can easily be discerned. For me personally the still or print he sold didn’t do that much for me  but when I watched the video effort …well that did . But of course that’s just me.. I’m sure many here probably don’t like the print or the video. 

 

I guess my point in stepping in and I kinda knew it could be subject to critique is really simple.. I know many artists and their skills , execution,  successes are all over the place.. even if Jeff’s work may not be our taste in art or fit within the scope of acceptance within this group and I kinda do honestly get that.  It’s still art and the space I’m coming from …The art world as a whole has struggled a bit since say 2008 or so .. I view this transaction more as a statement to the Art world as a whole not necessarily to a focused segment of it.. I still believe water runs downhill. So would I have Jeff’s piece hanging on my wall …likely not.. ( aside from the fact I couldn’t afford it) Am I glad he pulled that off …. In  a word…YUP! I find success to be exciting.. and it is a measurement of what’s going on. 

 

jimbo
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From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2014 9:30 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

 

  

Lik is quite talented, and there's no doubting that his work is technically good and would look great on most anyone's walls. As for "art," there's lots of opinions about what qualifies as "art," and you almost have to define that term before you can even start arguing about it. There's commercial art which is sold through gallery businesses, and those folks are usually catering to homes and businesses that want good stuff on their walls. There's art investors, folks who buy to both enjoy and resell later, and then there's art that belongs on the walls of MoMA, ICP, Hirschorn etc. At $6+ million I'd expect the artwork to be MoMA quality, but I don't see that. But it's not my money either.

 

But there's also the question of whether you can legitimately call this a "sale" at all. http://petapixel.com/2014/12/10/expensive-photo-world-best-marketing-stunt/

 

BTW, the video at the link discussing art photography sales is interesting, and I generally agree with her.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-15 by David Kachel

I tried to ignore this as long as I could. In the end, I failed.
I wrote about it on my blog:

http://thetransparentphotographer.com


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com
BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com
EMAIL: david@...

PO Box  93
Fort Davis, TX 79734
(432) 386-5787

RE: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-16 by Elliot Puritz

How can we access your blog David?  I have tried several times and a message
about not having permission, etc. is noted.

 

Elliot
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From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2014 6:05 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

 

  

I tried to ignore this as long as I could. In the end, I failed.

I wrote about it on my blog:

 

http://thetransparentphotographer.com

 

 

David Kachel

 

___________________

 

Artist-Photographer

Fine B&W Photographs

 

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com

BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com

EMAIL: david@...

 

PO Box  93

Fort Davis, TX 79734

(432) 386-5787

Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-16 by David Kachel

That\u2019s odd. I wonder how I messed that up?
Anyway, it is in my signature below. Or just type in: thetransparentphotographer.com

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com
BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com
EMAIL: david@...

PO Box 93
Fort Davis, TX 79734
(432) 386-5787

RE: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-16 by Elliot Puritz

David:  I typed in the address provided and received the message below.

 

I have no explanation and have not experienced a similar problem before.
Obviously there is something about my computer that your computer must not
like.

 

Suggestions?

 

Elliot

 

Forbidden

You don't have permission to access / on this server.

Additionally, a 403 Forbidden error was encountered while trying to use an
ErrorDocument to handle the request.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2014 7:58 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

 

  

That's odd. I wonder how I messed that up?

Anyway, it is in my signature below. Or just type in:
thetransparentphotographer.com

 

David Kachel

 

___________________

 

Artist-Photographer

Fine B&W Photographs

 

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com

BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com

EMAIL: david@...

 

PO Box  93

Fort Davis, TX 79734

(432) 386-5787

Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-16 by David Kachel

David: I typed in the address provided and received the message below.

I have no explanation and have not experienced a similar problem before. Obviously there is something about my computer that your computer must not like.

Suggestions?

Elliot,

I\u2019m stumped. A whole bunch of people have accessed it today, and no others have reported problems. I tried the various links I sent and they all worked.

All I can suggest is to clear your history, restart your browser and try again. Also, try connecting directly from your browser and not clicking on a link in your email client. Just grasping at straws here. Have no real clue.

If worse comes to worst, I can copy and past the text into an email for you. This is peculiar.



David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com
BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com
EMAIL: david@davidkachel.com

PO Box 93
Fort Davis, TX 79734
(432) 386-5787


Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-16 by pdesmidt tds.net

It worked for me.

On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 10:07 PM, David Kachel david@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text

David: I typed in the address provided and received the message below.

I have no explanation and have not experienced a similar problem before. Obviously there is something about my computer that your computer must not like.

Suggestions?

Elliot,

I’m stumped. A whole bunch of people have accessed it today, and no others have reported problems. I tried the various links I sent and they all worked.

All I can suggest is to clear your history, restart your browser and try again. Also, try connecting directly from your browser and not clicking on a link in your email client. Just grasping at straws here. Have no real clue.

If worse comes to worst, I can copy and past the text into an email for you. This is peculiar.



David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs


PO Box 93
Fort Davis, TX 79734
(432) 386-5787

RE: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-16 by Jim Bechtel

I think this is sort of getting out of whack a bit. I mean, I totally get
the logic that  " How can a photograph sell for 6.5 Mil"   Well the fact is
it apparently did. We'd be saying the same thing if it sold for half that.
Peter Lik has sold several pieces for over a mil a pop.. I think that is
great.. It's really not about whether we as individuals like his work or not
but clearly theirs some that do.  Anyway what a piece sells for is something
that gets worked out between the buyer and seller or the sellers agent. In
truth it's none of our business. 

 

As far as cashing out. If you do your homework Jeff is just getting started
if you ask me.  He's quite talented in multimedia and he has a long ways to
go before he's done.  David I truly appreciate your take on all this.. I
mean that .. and it's ok  how you feel about it. So for you it's just
perfect.. The idea, however, that that an artist needs to be scrounging to
make ends meet to me is not necessarily the way to look at it.. To me if
that's how it is then that's the box you'll create. I realize that many do
but the other side of that is that most artists are very very poor
marketers. I'm an artist myself and I also own a service company.. Art
pricing is literally all over the place from what I see.  It's not that hard
to figure out where the pricing should be. I work with a few artists that
are currently charging 60 to  80 bucks a sq inch for a painting..  I also
work with artists that charge by the hour.  I also work with a few that as
soo as they get it done they sell it for whatever they can get so they can
start another one or pay a bill.

 

To say it's not about the money I think is wrong.. For many that is true..
and I get it.. I really do.. Their driven to make art at any cost.. It's
just how the motor works inside them .. but then theirs those that somehow
have managed to rise above it a bit and their work is more sought after ,
more collectable and more whatever and of course their better marketers and
aren't afraid to say they want to make a decent living off making art. The
price that one sells or can their art for is directly related to their
credibility as an artist. There are a lot of great artists that really
aren't all that credible. Not sure if that makes any sense.. Being a
successful artist takes much more than the ability to execute their craft. 

 

Speaking as an artist and from my heart for me the most wonderful thing in
the world is when someone trades their hard earned money for a piece of mine
to hang on their wall.. While do get paid I guess but it's more about the
interaction in that they believe enough in me to help fund my work and my
life. That's the part I feed off of.. The money is simply a by product of
that and sort of the proof that the interaction really occurred.  Other wise
I could just make a piece and give it away. I'm smart enough to know however
that the creative animal inside me would soon whither and die without money.
When I built my studio a few years back ..That was a huge reach and
commitment for me..   I desperately wanted to raise the bar. I traded
artwork for 250 yards of wonderful black dirt that got hauled over from
Bozeman. I'm still laughing about it.. I got dirt for some of my best works
and that is still a beautiful memory for me.. 

 

Anyway, it's really not my place to dictate what a piece of art should sell
for. That's in all cases between the buyer and seller.. When the bar gets
raised however and we hear about it.. Aside from the fact that is creates a
lot of hubba  on the ground ..It does in part set the stage for the future..
It's not that we'll all sell a piece for 6.5 mil.it's more then we can
continue to  believe that we'll be able to support our addiction of making
art. 

 

jimbo
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2014 4:05 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

 

  

I tried to ignore this as long as I could. In the end, I failed.

I wrote about it on my blog:

 

http://thetransparentphotographer.com

 

 

David Kachel

 

___________________

 

Artist-Photographer

Fine B&W Photographs

 

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com

BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com

EMAIL: david@...

 

PO Box  93

Fort Davis, TX 79734

(432) 386-5787





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-16 by David Kachel

The idea, however, that that an artist needs to be scrounging to
make ends meet to me is not necessarily the way to look at it.

I didn\u2019t say anything remotely like that.


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com
BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com
EMAIL: david@...

PO Box 93
Fort Davis, TX 79734
(432) 386-5787


Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-21 by John Castronovo

Then he'll just have to create that too when the undisclosed buyer sells a 
piece to another undisclosed buyer. Even auction houses can be "worked" and 
the only cost is the commission for the house, which is a small price to pay 
for increasing the value of the entire collection several times over.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message----- 
From: Douglas Taylor dougtaylor13@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2014 7:15 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

An earlier post included a link to an article at Forbes.com, and the author 
of that article said there was no secondary market for Peter Lik 
photography.


Sincerely, DougTaylor


Sent from my iPad


> On Dec 13, 2014, at 9:05 PM, Tony Sleep TonySleep@... 
> [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] 
> <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> At that price, questions about 'art' or the quality of the photo are
> irrelevant. Nobody is buying because they like it, or is some transcendent
> setting-aside of the veil between us and reality, it is simply a
> speculative investment bet to do better than oil futures or 470lb of gold
> bullion.
> --
> Regards
> Tony Sleep
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as 
> they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
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>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. 
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the 
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W 
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from 
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner 
> and Moderators. See \u201cGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\u201d in the Files 
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \u201cOWNER\u201d AND 
> \u201cMODERATORS\u201d OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO 
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF 
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE 
> \u201cOWNER\u201d AND \u201cMODERATORS\u201d OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN 
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE 
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) 
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> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>


------------------------------------
Posted by: Douglas Taylor <dougtaylor13@...>
------------------------------------

Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as 
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same 
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep 
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. 
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the 
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W 
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from 
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and 
Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\ufffd in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND 
\ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU 
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY 
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, 
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND 
\ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE 
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY 
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR 
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY 
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links

Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-21 by David Kachel

Then he'll just have to create that too when the undisclosed buyer sells a
piece to another undisclosed buyer. Even auction houses can be "worked" and
the only cost is the commission for the house, which is a small price to pay
for increasing the value of the entire collection several times over.

My concern is the extreme damage this is going to do to fine art
photographers when the public becomes aware of this fraud.
Many will assume that all photographers lie about the value of their work.

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com
BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com
EMAIL: david@...

PO Box  93
Fort Davis, TX 79734
(432) 386-5787

Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-21 by John Castronovo

Don’t think for a second that a large part of the art market isn’t driven by fraud and misrepresentation. It’s not limited to photographs or even this century. This stuff is marketed, promoted and sold, just like soap. There are two meanings of the word appreciation when it comes to art and investors are more concerned with art as assets rather than the art itself. People value the intangibles and the story that goes with the art which is why an original is worth so much more than a reproduction that looks identical to it. Create the right story, and the buzz will create value.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 11:15 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?




Then he'll just have to create that too when the undisclosed buyer sells a 
piece to another undisclosed buyer. Even auction houses can be "worked" and 
the only cost is the commission for the house, which is a small price to pay 
for increasing the value of the entire collection several times over.


My concern is the extreme damage this is going to do to fine art photographers when the public becomes aware of this fraud.
Many will assume that all photographers lie about the value of their work.


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com
BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com
EMAIL: david@...

PO Box  93
Fort Davis, TX 79734
(432) 386-5787

Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-21 by Paul Roark

David wrote:

>... Many will assume that all photographers lie about the value of their work.

I think many already do.

I had an interesting exchange with a friend (MFA, young collector of mostly paintings) who was proudly showing me an abstract, alt. process piece in a relatively high end gallery (generally 4 to 7 figure) in Santa Barbara where he works. A lot of the "value" he saw in the piece was that it would be unique, guaranteed by what he thought was the nature of its "hand made, non-digital" nature. I proceeded to describe to him exactly how I could have made the piece with a digital intermediary, and, likewise, could reproduce the piece in a manner he'd never be able to distinguish from what the gallery had.

He was discouraged and wondered just what collectors were buying with a photograph. I don't know, but my feeling is that an authentic and unique signature might be close to the top of the list. (At the FTC we sued people who falsified such.) As to quantity limits, the trust of the artist/photographer is about all one has until the photographer dies -- which is why that event is such a major factor.

FWIW,

Paul

Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-21 by John Castronovo

As to quantity limits, the trust of the artist/photographer is about all one has until the photographer dies -- which is why that event is such a major factor.  

Phil Stern just died which resulted in an immediate doubling of the price of his prints from his gallery. You’re correct that the story behind the print is vastly more important than the image. In fact, it might be the only thing of lasting value.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 12:40 PM
To: DigitalB&WPrint 
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?




David wrote:

>... Many will assume that all photographers lie about the value of their work.

I think many already do.

I had an interesting exchange with a friend (MFA, young collector of mostly paintings) who was proudly showing me an abstract, alt. process piece in a relatively high end gallery (generally 4 to 7 figure)  in Santa Barbara where he works.  A lot of the "value" he saw in the piece was that it would be unique, guaranteed by what he thought was the nature of its "hand made, non-digital" nature.  I proceeded to describe to him exactly how I could have made the piece with a digital intermediary, and, likewise, could reproduce the piece in a manner he'd never be able to distinguish from what the gallery had.  

He was discouraged and wondered just what collectors were buying with a photograph.  I don't know, but my feeling is that an authentic and unique signature might be close to the top of the list.  (At the FTC we sued people who falsified such.)  As to quantity limits, the trust of the artist/photographer is about all one has until the photographer dies -- which is why that event is such a major factor.  

FWIW,

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

RE: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-21 by Jim Bechtel

I don’t know how large of a piece of the art market is driven by fraud but I do totally agree that a segment of it is . A few times thru the years I got hooked up providing a repro service to a new client that was fraudulent.. To the best of my knowledge I did the right things in those occurrence’s. That’s a scary area from a service providers standpoint.. I’ve had people that have either bought or somehow come by an original and they want to repro and sell prints .. actually I’ve seen that end of it quite a bit. 

 

As far as David’s comment about selling collections or pieces to increase the value… Sadly I’ve seen that also.. what’s worse is that the transaction info shared wasn’t accurate. I guess all one can do is be as honorable as you can be..  When you’re dealing with people you just don’t know at times and that can be a real challenge.  This is so true in so many areas.. classic or collector cars fine musical instruments etc.. I could make a long list. I guess all I can be responsible for is me and what I do and if I need help I better make sure I’m smart enough to ask for it. 

 

In China right now , which is the second largest art market next to the US. They have so many fraud issues going on  that their really screwed up.

 

As a note and this is meant to be constructive, ok? In this thread I’ve seen many allude to that art is bought as an investment not as an appreciation purchase and that seems to be a wrong incentive to some. I’m just gonna suggest this ok? Now first theirs a couple of ways to look at this .. is the artist alive or dead… no kidden. I think it’s truly acceptable to buy as an investment.  I  mean what’s wrong with that.. beats the crap out of of bank interest… and if you think only the rich do your just not aware.. some years ago I did over 30 art shows a year promoting my work.. I’ve been fortunate was able to  do the CM Russell show..  A Canadian artist , an oil painter, was the at the end of the aisle.. first time I ever saw him  or his work, both he and his work were incredible. He had a piece their that stopped me in my tracks.. a portrait of an Indian Chief.. It was way expensive.. I did some homework on the artist at the show.. got lotsa help..  When the dust settled I pretty much gave him every nickel I made at the show plus a small check  to boot..  It’s hanging in my living room.. and the thing that got me to step off the curb was simply I believed in the artist.. As much as I’d like to say that I bought because I just loved lookin at it well that would be a lie.. I bought as an investment. I knew or felt this guy was going somewhere, hah actually he was already somewhere. He’s like the second coming of Howard Terpning who’s work I just love.. So I’m not looking back.  Yah know there’s a lot of things wrong with almost everything in world today.. I just can’t focus there anymore it’s to dark a place and limits me. I will finish my  life with no limits.

 

jimbo
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 10:11 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

 

  

Don’t think for a second that a large part of the art market isn’t driven by fraud and misrepresentation. It’s not limited to photographs or even this century. This stuff is marketed, promoted and sold, just like soap. There are two meanings of the word appreciation when it comes to art and investors are more concerned with art as assets rather than the art itself. People value the intangibles and the story that goes with the art which is why an original is worth so much more than a reproduction that looks identical to it. Create the right story, and the buzz will create value. 

From: mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 

Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 11:15 AM

To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 

Subject: Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

 






Then he'll just have to create that too when the undisclosed buyer sells a 
piece to another undisclosed buyer. Even auction houses can be "worked" and 
the only cost is the commission for the house, which is a small price to pay 
for increasing the value of the entire collection several times over.

 

My concern is the extreme damage this is going to do to fine art photographers when the public becomes aware of this fraud.

Many will assume that all photographers lie about the value of their work.

 

David Kachel

 

___________________

 

Artist-Photographer

Fine B&W Photographs

 

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com

BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com

EMAIL: david@...

 

PO Box  93

Fort Davis, TX 79734

(432) 386-5787

 









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-21 by David Kachel

He was discouraged and wondered just what collectors were buying with a photograph.

The day art moved from being something that feeds the soul to becoming an investment, was ruinous for artists and led blank white canvases and pieces of string stuck to a wall with a thumbtack being \u201cart221;.

People whose lives revolve around money alone, ruin just about everything they touch. (And you\u2019re hearing this from a capitalist, free market, strict constitutionalist.)


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com
BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com
EMAIL: david@...

PO Box 93
Fort Davis, TX 79734
(432) 386-5787

Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-21 by David Kachel

I think it\u2019s truly acceptable to buy as an investment.

I certainly would not deny anyone the right to do that. But for that to be the primary motivationR30;!

That\u2019s what leads to people like the topic of this thread, and swindlers of all stripes. I\u2019ve had people spill the beans right in front of me, in all innocence, admitting they were buying my work as an investment, thinking I might agree with them. It is disheartening to realize that someone buying your work cannot see what is right in front of them and could just as easily be buying pork futures.

Of course, the ideal revenge would be to suggest to them that the best investment would be one of Lik\u2019s photographs. ; ;-)


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com
BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com
EMAIL: david@...

PO Box 93
Fort Davis, TX 79734
(432) 386-5787


Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-21 by John Castronovo

What could be more illustrative in this regard than the inflated value placed on printed cardboard, aka baseball cards? Collectors are crazy people.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 2:19 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?




 I think it’s truly acceptable to buy as an investment.


I certainly would not deny anyone the right to do that. But for that to be the primary motivation…!

That’s what leads to people like the topic of this thread, and swindlers of all stripes. I’ve had people spill the beans right in front of me, in all innocence, admitting they were buying my work as an investment, thinking I might agree with them. It is disheartening to realize that someone buying your work cannot see what is right in front of them and could just as easily be buying pork futures.

Of course, the ideal revenge would be to suggest to them that the best investment would be one of Lik’s photographs.   ;-)



David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com
BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com
EMAIL: david@...

PO Box  93
Fort Davis, TX 79734
(432) 386-5787

RE: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-21 by Jim Bechtel

Ok for the purposes of this post (as in my response)  lets leave the
swindlers out of it as they virtually exist everywhere not just in the art
market..  Anyway to keep it simple  there are primarily  three reasons for a
person to consider purchasing a piece of art work .. one is they like the
piece, two is they like the artist and want to support his efforts by
collecting his works and the third is simply as an investment. We could also
include pieces donated for raffles etc but lets leave that stuff out for
now.  The point is that if you choose to not want to sell to one of the
three segments I mentioned your limiting yourself possibly.which is totally
ok .. but that choice should be left to the individual artist not to
another's feeling about how art should be sold. There are art funds out
there .Fidelity has several as do other brokers.. Art investing has been
used in pension funds as it's been less volatile.   

 

I have never met anyone that has purchased a piece of art that they at least
didn't appreciate but I'm sure it true.. John brought up  baseball cards
example is so true , how about comic books or that magic rare color diamond
that has to sit in a safe deposit box all the time. Me I'm kinda hooked on
special guitars.. Each of us has different feelings about how things should
be.. that the beauty of it.. that's what makes us different.. 

 

So as far as the big bucks for the prints.. well at a personal level I also
think it's nuts I mean I wouldn't pay that kind of dough for 10 of them..
and that is the truth.. but I'm not the guy that did and I can't see into
his soul and it's not my place to do so.. but it is my place to simply
notice it and I get to process it however I see fit and I have the right to
do that.

 

As far as Lik's work..  well I've been a sailor since I was 8 year sold..
Sailing and racing all my life.. small boats big boats didn't matter.. When
I moved to Montana I had to give a lot of things up..that was sort of one of
them. My only real outlet here is to go up to Flathead and sail up there
when I get a chance. Every year however I go to San Diego and really let my
hair down. Anyway Lik's work is in a gallery out there.. and I've been in it
twice.. I've never met him but he's no chump is my guess and a good shooter
based upon what I've seen.. His work is a bit too steep for me but it seems
to work in its environment. Point is I don't feel it's right to slam dunk
the guy as in the end he's just a shooter like we are. 

 

jimbo
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 12:19 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

 

  

 I think it's truly acceptable to buy as an investment.

 

I certainly would not deny anyone the right to do that. But for that to be
the primary motivation.!

 

That's what leads to people like the topic of this thread, and swindlers of
all stripes. I've had people spill the beans right in front of me, in all
innocence, admitting they were buying my work as an investment, thinking I
might agree with them. It is disheartening to realize that someone buying
your work cannot see what is right in front of them and could just as easily
be buying pork futures.

 

Of course, the ideal revenge would be to suggest to them that the best
investment would be one of Lik's photographs.   ;-)

 

 

David Kachel

 

___________________

 

Artist-Photographer

Fine B&W Photographs

 

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com

BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com

EMAIL: david@...

 

PO Box  93

Fort Davis, TX 79734

(432) 386-5787

 









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-22 by David Kachel

Point is I don't feel it's right to slam dunk
the guy as in the end he's just a shooter like we are.

Not \u201cwe"! Absolutely not \u201cwe\u201d! I am not a \u201cshooter\u201d and am nothing at all like him. If you wish to lump yourself together with him, that\u2019s your business.
I take my profession seriously. I don\u2019t cheat anyone. And I don\u2019t fabricate fake auctions and awards to make myself seem important.
The proof Lik is a fraud is the fact there is no secondary market for his work. If he were legitimate, a secondary market would be unavoidable.
Lik disgusts me and I highly resent the negative effect his shenanigans have on the fine art photography world.


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com
BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com
EMAIL: david@davidkachel.com

PO Box 93
Fort Davis, TX 79734
(432) 386-5787

RE: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-22 by Jim Bechtel

Well ok I guess here we go.. LOLL.. David your taking this all personal
which really stops it from being a constructive event..  Not Kool dude.

 

Ok so I'm going agree with some of what you said..  "Not we" .. absolutely
true..  "Your not a shooter"..  well you dialed it in .. I think more of
myself then that.  As far as lumping.. well my business model  is quite
different then Lik's .. but that doesn't mean  I think his is bad .. what I
do know about his business model is that it's a huge responsibility..  and
that's true..

I think you do take your profession seriously.  I mean that .. if I didn't
think that I wouldn't be screwing with you right now..  that's true so
somehow we got off on the wrong foot.. Sorry but I insist I stand on my
feet, not yours.

 

As far as fabricating auctions etc.. I'll simply say  prove it.. Simple talk
will not work at this level.. ok?  If you really want to be a hero pull up
some evidence of that behavior or shelf it..

 

As far as your comment on no secondary market..  well I don't think you know
how their sales environment is set up.. He's modeled  his business , right
wrong or indifferent  after Thomas  Mangelsen.. So presently his galleries
all 14 of them are focused on controlling the entire sales of all the art
work ..  so not a secondary market as yet .. Thomas went that way also but
found that wasn't workable especially after the art market headed south and
he had to shut a few galleries down.. Lek is attempting to stay exclusive to
his galleries and hold pricing to keep it stable..  If he pulls that off for
what it worth he'll deserve sum kudo's as he protecting his buyers
investments ..  To be honest  I think he's funding that to a degree. Maybe
that where the 6 mil went.. I have no clue.  I can tell you when Mangelsen
went thru this and had to shut some galleries down and then go to secondary
markets.. it was tough for him and his family as they had  really invested
heavily in dedicated galleries.

Anyway.. to sum up.. There are many artists that I'm not a fan of their work
or them.. but nothing is personal about it.. I'm just in another place..
You have anger and resentment towards  Lek and I doubt you even  know him..
What's up with that?  Ru that stuck on being right? Common.. I got your
feelings and opinions about artists that sell art work for lots of money.  I
did get it . Were in the bleachers and truth is we have no clue what's
really going on sometimes down on the field...  It's all informational and
that's maybe all it should be. Maybe it's just the way the press broke it
loose that got it screwed up..  Getting all emotional over what we thing we
know is dead wrong..  I just can't go there.  Don't have the time for that.

Sorry if I've disappointed you ..  didn't mean too , honest..otay?

jimbo
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 12:19 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

 

  

 I think it's truly acceptable to buy as an investment.

 

I certainly would not deny anyone the right to do that. But for that to be
the primary motivation.!

 

That's what leads to people like the topic of this thread, and swindlers of
all stripes. I've had people spill the beans right in front of me, in all
innocence, admitting they were buying my work as an investment, thinking I
might agree with them. It is disheartening to realize that someone buying
your work cannot see what is right in front of them and could just as easily
be buying pork futures.

 

Of course, the ideal revenge would be to suggest to them that the best
investment would be one of Lik's photographs.   ;-)

 

 

David Kachel

 

___________________

 

Artist-Photographer

Fine B&W Photographs

 

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com

BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com

EMAIL: david@...

 

PO Box  93

Fort Davis, TX 79734

(432) 386-5787

 









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-22 by David Kachel

Sorry if I've disappointed you .. didn't mean too , honest..otay?

Jim,

Maybe I should go back and re-read what I wrote, but rest assured you have not offended or angered me in any way.
Sorry if I made you think so. I am only angered by Lik.

But it is not a case of a different business model. First, with the number of galleries Lik owns and the amount of work he has sold, there would have to be a secondary market and over that, he would have zero control. He has no secondary market, except maybe ebay, because the art world absolutely does not recognize him.

I went looking on the internet for an older story about Lik representing someone else\u2019s photograph on his web site, as his own. I didn\u2019t find that story, but I did find another one I didn\u2019t know about. Here\u2019s the link:


That makes TWO that I know about and before today, I never looked. I stumbled on the first story I mentioned. Real artists don\u2019t \u201caccidentally\u201d put the work of other photographers on their web sites.

You might also find this first hand story about working with/for Lik.


The definition of fine art photography is pretty broad and always open to interpretation, so the line is pretty wide and very fuzzy to boot. But Lik is so far from the line, he can\u03357;t see it with Hubble.

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com
BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com
EMAIL: david@...

PO Box 93
Fort Davis, TX 79734
(432) 386-5787

Re: [Digital BW] what do you think?

2014-12-22 by japty4644@...

ABSOLUTELY! I do not give a damn about Peter Lik or another individual who is not teaching anything worth while. I was tired of having to delete these emails.

Jim

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