Digital BW, The Print

Martin,

You wrote:

>...
>I gave the Neutral Full Spectrum inks a try using hand filled
>virgin carts from MIS and the Conetech Piezography driver.

>Finally a new color of Piezo print! ...

Yes, I thought we needed some new tones.

>First off the shades of gray are an excellent match to the Piezo inks. ...

Let me know how the various paper profiles work.  There is a chance the some
papers will have different characteristics with the MIS pigments than they
do with the Piezo ink.  With the papers I use, they seem right on.

>Second while this is a welcome addition to what is available
>and I much prefer it over the color of the Piezo ink,
>I do not find it to be truly neutral. To my eye the tone was cool ...

Yes, it is a bit cool.  I've suggested to MIS that they might consider
calling it "FS-cool."

>... Not as cool as MIS VM with Paul's neutral cool curve but similar.

I find it more neutral than the vm-nc curve.  I assume we are all getting
the first production sample, but maybe MIS mixes really small batches.  Is
your sample cooler than the vm-nc curve?  (I test on EAM.)

> I found it very close to an un-toned silver print which I think will
please >a great many people.

The target was the average tone of a Kodak Polymax Fine Art, toned for 3
minutes in selenium 1:19 (my standard procedure for silver printing).

>The prints on EAM looked more neutral than the several
>Hahnemuhle papers I tried.

I don't test on Hahnemuhle.  I've noticed with some of the papers I do use
that the tone will vary with paper -- and it's more than just the tone of
the paper coming through the highlights.  The inks and coatings seem to
react in different ways.

Frankly, that is one of the big advantages of the VM system.  You may have
noticed the post I made the other day about balancing the "warm" curve for
the VM-sepia inkset.  Very small amounts of toner in the base ink -- which
is the same as the FS-N -- allowed me to come up with a very neutral print.
I think that fine tuning is important for those of us who are picky.  And, I
think each paper and printer type needs it.  Realistically, those who learn
how to tweak the curves are going to be able to fine tune their systems and
get closer to the tones they want than the standardized inks or curves will
be able to do.

>One of the problems with getting a "selenium toned silver fiber" print
color >is that there is a HUGE range of variation in the color of
>selenium toned prints ...

Yes.  The people I talked to liked the lightly-toned ones.  So, that was the
target.

>... the Oriental Seagull is cool in the highlight and a little purple in
the >shadows.

This is closer to what most like.  The original target for the inkset is a
hair magenta.  Frankly, MIS missed the target slightly.  I haven't looked
into why yet.

The cooler shadows are a problem for the black ink we have.  It's a hair
warm.  I'm going to be trying to make a neutral ink that might help here.

>I want to stress that this is all extremely subtle.
>If you sit down and surround yourself with just NFS prints the
>effect is very neutral.

>So, Paul, how about a chocolate toned FS? Seriously, I know you have posted
a >formula for a Sepia toned FS but I think that there is room for a couple
>of more shades of FS inks.

The sepia seemed to be the next thing on the list.  MIS has to be convinced
from the user market, however, that there is enough demand to bother with
yet another ink.  So far I have not heard any interest from their part.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

----- Original Message -----

From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
To: "DigitalB&WPrint" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 5:36 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] MIS Neutral FS, First Impressions


>
> >Finally a new color of Piezo print! ...
>
> Yes, I thought we needed some new tones.

This does leave me rather baffled as to why Conetech has not come out with
alternate inks sooner since MIS seems to have been able to put the FS
neutral together rather quickly.
>
> >First off the shades of gray are an excellent match to the Piezo inks.
...
>
> Let me know how the various paper profiles work.  There is a chance the
some
> papers will have different characteristics with the MIS pigments than they
> do with the Piezo ink.  With the papers I use, they seem right on.

I will but at the moment I am playing with the Sepia-VM in my second
printer.
>
(snip)
>
> >... Not as cool as MIS VM with Paul's neutral cool curve but similar.
>
> I find it more neutral than the vm-nc curve.  I assume we are all getting
> the first production sample, but maybe MIS mixes really small batches.  Is
> your sample cooler than the vm-nc curve?  (I test on EAM.)

It is not as cool as the VM with the nc curve but still on the cool side.
They looked less cool this morning but I think that is just subjective
rather than any change. I am getting used to the tone.
>
> > I found it very close to an un-toned silver print which I think will
> please >a great many people.
>
> The target was the average tone of a Kodak Polymax Fine Art, toned for 3
> minutes in selenium 1:19 (my standard procedure for silver printing).

I have some Polymax Fine Art prints framed on the wall and I must have toned
them much more heavily since they are on the brown side of neutral.
>
> >The prints on EAM looked more neutral than the several
> >Hahnemuhle papers I tried.
>
> I don't test on Hahnemuhle.  I've noticed with some of the papers I do use
> that the tone will vary with paper -- and it's more than just the tone of
> the paper coming through the highlights.  The inks and coatings seem to
> react in different ways.

This is one of the advantages of a true neutral ink set. The color of the
paper base then sets the color of the print. I think the Hahnemuhle coating
is warmer than the EAM so the coolness of the ink may be more noticeable. As
you say there can be a reaction between ink and coating which may push the
color in unexpected directions.
>
> Frankly, that is one of the big advantages of the VM system.  You may have
> noticed the post I made the other day about balancing the "warm" curve for
> the VM-sepia inkset.  Very small amounts of toner in the base ink -- which
> is the same as the FS-N -- allowed me to come up with a very neutral
print.
> I think that fine tuning is important for those of us who are picky.

I can see where that would really help as I recall your ration of Y to M in
the toner was 4 to 2. It would not take much of this to knock down the blue
cast in the Neutral FS.

> And, I
> think each paper and printer type needs it.  Realistically, those who
learn
> how to tweak the curves are going to be able to fine tune their systems
and
> get closer to the tones they want than the standardized inks or curves
will
> be able to do.

I agree completely. This is why the prospect of an affordable RIP is so
attractive. As you have found the RGB separation curves with the Epson
driver work nicely with the four color printers but things get more
difficult with the six ink printers. It seems that as you push towards the
extreme of no toner or of full toner, the curves become more radical and it
is harder to achieve a smooth tone ramp. With a RIP these problems would be
eliminated.

(snip)
>
> >... the Oriental Seagull is cool in the highlight and a little purple in
> the >shadows.
>
> This is closer to what most like.  The original target for the inkset is a
> hair magenta.  Frankly, MIS missed the target slightly.  I haven't looked
> into why yet.

A hair magenta would definitely win my heart! I noticed when I got some
drips that the solvent that bled out into the paper away from the center of
the spot was definitely light blue.
>
> The cooler shadows are a problem for the black ink we have.  It's a hair
> warm.  I'm going to be trying to make a neutral ink that might help here.

I wish you luck! That would be very helpful as a starting base.
>
(snip)
>
> >So, Paul, how about a chocolate toned FS? Seriously, I know you have
posted
> a >formula for a Sepia toned FS but I think that there is room for a
couple
> >of more shades of FS inks.
>
> The sepia seemed to be the next thing on the list.  MIS has to be
convinced
> from the user market, however, that there is enough demand to bother with
> yet another ink.  So far I have not heard any interest from their part.

From an end user point of view there is room for many different color ink
sets just as there are many silver papers (about 90!) available. From a
production and business perspective this is probably not workable. I would
think that 3 or 4 sets supporting the Piezo driver would be very saleable
but I have no way of knowing for sure.

Ultimately we may want to mix our own to achieve a unique look for our
prints just as we did by choosing paper and toner combinations. It might me
a viable product to sell a set of base inks, clear medium, C, Y, M inks and
a booklet describing how to mix your own while maintaining densities close
to the FS with some sample recipes. A similar kit for the VM would be nice
too. I think that there are enough people who would like to stay with the
Piezo driver to make this very attractive.

Martin

At 05:36 PM 3/11/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>Martin,
>
>You wrote:
>
>>...
>>I gave the Neutral Full Spectrum inks a try using hand filled
>>virgin carts from MIS and the Conetech Piezography driver.
>
>>Finally a new color of Piezo print! ...
>
>Yes, I thought we needed some new tones.
>
>>First off the shades of gray are an excellent match to the Piezo inks. ...
>
>Let me know how the various paper profiles work.  There is a chance the some
>papers will have different characteristics with the MIS pigments than they
>do with the Piezo ink.  With the papers I use, they seem right on.
>
>>Second while this is a welcome addition to what is available
>>and I much prefer it over the color of the Piezo ink,
>>I do not find it to be truly neutral. To my eye the tone was cool ...
>
>Yes, it is a bit cool.  I've suggested to MIS that they might consider
>calling it "FS-cool."
>
>>... Not as cool as MIS VM with Paul's neutral cool curve but similar.
>
>I find it more neutral than the vm-nc curve.  I assume we are all getting
>the first production sample, but maybe MIS mixes really small batches.  Is
>your sample cooler than the vm-nc curve?  (I test on EAM.)
>
>> I found it very close to an un-toned silver print which I think will
>please >a great many people.
>
>The target was the average tone of a Kodak Polymax Fine Art, toned for 3
>minutes in selenium 1:19 (my standard procedure for silver printing).
>
>>The prints on EAM looked more neutral than the several
>>Hahnemuhle papers I tried.
>
>I don't test on Hahnemuhle.  I've noticed with some of the papers I do use
>that the tone will vary with paper -- and it's more than just the tone of
>the paper coming through the highlights.  The inks and coatings seem to
>react in different ways.
>
>Frankly, that is one of the big advantages of the VM system.  You may have
>noticed the post I made the other day about balancing the "warm" curve for
>the VM-sepia inkset.  Very small amounts of toner in the base ink -- which
>is the same as the FS-N -- allowed me to come up with a very neutral print.
>I think that fine tuning is important for those of us who are picky.  And, I
>think each paper and printer type needs it.  Realistically, those who learn
>how to tweak the curves are going to be able to fine tune their systems and
>get closer to the tones they want than the standardized inks or curves will
>be able to do.
>
>>One of the problems with getting a "selenium toned silver fiber" print
>color >is that there is a HUGE range of variation in the color of
>>selenium toned prints ...
>
>Yes.  The people I talked to liked the lightly-toned ones.  So, that was the
>target.
>
>>... the Oriental Seagull is cool in the highlight and a little purple in
>the >shadows.
>
>This is closer to what most like.  The original target for the inkset is a
>hair magenta.  Frankly, MIS missed the target slightly.  I haven't looked
>into why yet.
>
>The cooler shadows are a problem for the black ink we have.  It's a hair
>warm.  I'm going to be trying to make a neutral ink that might help here.
>
>>I want to stress that this is all extremely subtle.
>>If you sit down and surround yourself with just NFS prints the
>>effect is very neutral.
>
>>So, Paul, how about a chocolate toned FS? Seriously, I know you have posted
>a >formula for a Sepia toned FS but I think that there is room for a couple
>>of more shades of FS inks.
>
>The sepia seemed to be the next thing on the list.  MIS has to be convinced
>from the user market, however, that there is enough demand to bother with
>yet another ink.  So far I have not heard any interest from their part.
>
>Paul
>http://www.PaulRoark.com
>

Three things,

Where would one begin with mixing a batch of sepia or VanDyke brown-looking
inks for quad? I'd settle for something non-variable for the Epson driver. 

Regarding mixing subtle tones to gain a selenium look or to just warm things
up a tad, can one just add magenta to the black ink and not the diluted inks?

Isn't it more effective to judge the effect of warmth or coolness on
different types of paper, or whatever color cast, on high-value (10-20%)
swatches? The color of the paper affects the over-all ink tones the most in
the lightest areas. Warmer inks look crappy on papers with brighteners,
particularly in the light areas.

thanks,

AZ
Maker of Lookaround panoramic camera.

http://www.lookaroundcam.com/
         or
keyword.com lookaround