Digital BW, The Print

(With a subject like, "Kleenex chromatography," it's hard not to wonder.)

The other day, in the context of comparing these inks, I mentioned that I
had put drops of the MIS and Piezo magenta-position inks on a Kleenex and
found that the resulting ink dots showed what could be interesting
information. The scan of the Kleenex is now in the "Files" area of the
forum, in the "Message
Related Files" folder.  It's called Piezo-MISdots.jpg.  The following URL
should get you there:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/Message%20R
elated%20Files/Piezo-MISdots.jpg

I'm sure the image is subject to differing interpretations.  My view is that
the blue-green fringe around the Piezo spot may be caused by dissolved dyes
in that inkset spreading further through the Kleenex than the pigment
particles.  However, I'm no chemist.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> (With a subject like, "Kleenex chromatography," it's hard not to 
wonder.)
> 
> The other day, in the context of comparing these inks, I 
mentioned that I
> had put drops of the MIS and Piezo magenta-position inks on a 
Kleenex and
> found that the resulting ink dots showed what could be 
interesting
> information. The scan of the Kleenex is now in the "Files" area 
of the
> forum, in the "Message
> Related Files" folder.  It's called Piezo-MISdots.jpg.  The 
following URL
> should get you there:
> 
> 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/file
s/Message%20R
> elated%20Files/Piezo-MISdots.jpg
> 
> I'm sure the image is subject to differing interpretations.  My 
view is that
> the blue-green fringe around the Piezo spot may be caused by 
dissolved dyes
> in that inkset spreading further through the Kleenex than the 
pigment
> particles.  However, I'm no chemist.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

Thats very cool! Sheds light on what must be going on with 
prints. 

Dave

Just a note on the web address in Paul's message below. It wraps from 
one line to the next and just clicking on it will not get you where 
you want to go. So either follow the path to the group homepage 
to "Files" to "Message Related Files" and you will find it. Or you 
can copy and paste the two halves of the page address into your 
browsers address window.

Martin

Group's Homepage:


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> (With a subject like, "Kleenex chromatography," it's hard not to 
wonder.)
> 
> The other day, in the context of comparing these inks, I mentioned 
that I
> had put drops of the MIS and Piezo magenta-position inks on a 
Kleenex and
> found that the resulting ink dots showed what could be interesting
> information. The scan of the Kleenex is now in the "Files" area of 
the
> forum, in the "Message
> Related Files" folder.  It's called Piezo-MISdots.jpg.  The 
following URL
> should get you there:
> 
> 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/Messa
ge%20R
> elated%20Files/Piezo-MISdots.jpg
> 
> I'm sure the image is subject to differing interpretations.  My 
view is that
> the blue-green fringe around the Piezo spot may be caused by 
dissolved dyes
> in that inkset spreading further through the Kleenex than the 
pigment

> particles.  However, I'm no chemist.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> I'm sure the image is subject to differing interpretations.  My view 
is that
> the blue-green fringe around the Piezo spot may be caused by 
dissolved dyes
> in that inkset spreading further through the Kleenex than the 
pigment
> particles.  However, I'm no chemist.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

1. It wouldn't have to be dissolved dyes (although that is more 
likely).  Finer particulates (pigments) would also be able to travel 
farther in your "chromatography" substrate and would exhibit the same 
effect.  Are there two different carbon particulates in the ink with a 
different dye coating?  This is nit picking I guess... the result is 
the same whether it's solid substrate or dye.

2. The liquid carrier could contain a black dye that is reacting with 
the Kleenex and turning green.  Is it possible for this experiment to 
be repeated on a more relevant substrate like the actual print paper?

3. Is the paper porosity of paper used by those reporting the problem 
able to be correlated at all?  Have people changed paper batches?  (I 
know people have reported that their ink batch hasn't changed.)

Mike Dawson

on 8/20/01 11:19 PM, Paul Roark wrote:

> The other day, in the context of comparing these inks, I mentioned that I
> had put drops of the MIS and Piezo magenta-position inks on a Kleenex and
> found that the resulting ink dots showed what could be interesting
> information.

Paul,

Couple of questions.

Did you compare other color positions too?

Separation aside, why is there such a color difference between the two inks?
I understand the MIS native inks are a tad warmer than the Piezo inks, but
that much?

Thanks,
Todd

on 8/20/01 11:33 PM, dave@... at dave@... wrote:

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/file
s/Message%20Related%20Files/Piezo-MISdots.jpg
> 
>> I'm sure the image is subject to differing interpretations.  My view is that
>> the blue-green fringe around the Piezo spot may be caused by dissolved dyes
>> in that inkset spreading further through the Kleenex than the pigment
>> particles.  However, I'm no chemist.
>> 
>> Paul http://www.PaulRoark.com
>> 
> Thats very cool! Sheds light on what must be going on with prints.

yes indeed. if the blue-green dye fades on exposure to light and/or free
radicals, it would account for the warming of the piezo prints. The spread
pattern also suggests to me that the MIS inks may print with a slightly
lower dot gain than the cone inks.

-- 
John Brownlow

http://www.pinkheadedbug.com

ICQ: 109343205

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Johnny Deadman <john@p...> 
wrote:
> radicals, it would account for the warming of the piezo prints. 

The MIS warm too, sometimes even more, but it takes longer.

The spread
> pattern also suggests to me that the MIS inks may print with a 
slightly
> lower dot gain than the cone inks.

Measuring dot gain with an instrument designed to do so may "suggest" 
just the opposite.
I wonder what happens when you dip french fries in the inks and feed 
them to pidgeons?
Yikes, here I go again...
T

on 8/21/01 10:56 AM, Tyler Boley at tyler@... wrote:

> The spread
>> pattern also suggests to me that the MIS inks may print with a
> slightly
>> lower dot gain than the cone inks.
> 
> Measuring dot gain with an instrument designed to do so may "suggest"
> just the opposite.

when you do it get back to us!
-- 
John Brownlow

http://www.pinkheadedbug.com

ICQ: 109343205

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Johnny Deadman <john@p...> 
wrote:
> on 8/21/01 10:56 AM, Tyler Boley at tyler@t... wrote:
> > Measuring dot gain with an instrument designed to do so may
"suggest"
> > just the opposite.
> 
> when you do it get back to us!

I did John, right when the Piezo inks came out. As well as the
Lysonic 
inks. I think it's important to try to avoid implying any of these 
products are inferior based on our entry level tests that may wind up 
being totally irrelevant. Non of us are scientists, Wilhemn's current 
dilemma implies it's nearly impossible even if you are a scientist.
I learned my lesson a while back when I screamed loud and clear 
because all my MIS prints turned reddish after a few weeks,
suggesting 
the inks were very unstable. I quickly moved away from them as soon
as 
other alternatives became available. This was before Piezograghy.
As we know now, they are probably stable after the initial shift, so
I 
may have done some irresponsible damage, the internet lets us do that.
We need to be careful around here. My methods and chosen materials
are 
best for me right now, and me only.
It doesn't need to be turned in to a dogma to try and sell everyone.
Tyler

> Measuring dot gain with an instrument designed to do so may "suggest"
> just the opposite.
> I wonder what happens when you dip french fries in the inks and feed
> them to pidgeons?
> Yikes, here I go again...
> T

They end up with carbon pigment all over their lips.

J

on 8/21/01 11:33 AM, Tyler Boley at tyler@... wrote:

> I think it's important to try to avoid implying any of these
> products are inferior based on our entry level tests that may wind up
> being totally irrelevant.

I agree, Tyler, hence my wording..."may...suggest...to me"

-- 
John Brownlow

http://www.pinkheadedbug.com

ICQ: 109343205