Digital BW, The Print

I had a customer complain about yellowing as well. 
The "culprit" was finally tracked down to be the wood burning stove his customer was using during colder days to supplement a central heating system. It was not venting correctly and...
It was the old take all the pictures down in the house and count the white squares behind them scenario.
 - JT

>>  After reading that one of our list members had some Hahnemuhle Photo 
  >>  Rag 308 yellow after just general interior ambient light exposure, I 
  >>  became worried that my prints might do the same. I even considered 
  >>  not using this paper.

  >>  So, I took a 16x20 sheet of H. PR 308 and cut it in half. My new home 
  >>  does not have a good south facing window so I did the next best 
  >>  thing. I placed 1/2 of the paper in the rear window of my car. (BTW, 
  >>  my car window does not have any special tiniting other than the 
  >>  German glass installed at the factory) It sat there for 30 days in 
  >>  the bright "hot" south Florida sun. It also made a 350 mile run to 
  >>  visit my son in Gainesville at the University of Florida and back (A 
  >>  very important fact!).

  >>  This morning I removed the paper and compared it to the half that I 
  >>  placed in a dark drawer and to a fresh sheet right out of the plastic 
  >>  bag.

  >>  The result was very interesting. No yellowing was visually evident, 
  >>  but what was obvious was a faint bleaching of the paper. The paper 
  >>  exposed to the sun was "whiter" than the control sheet.

  >>  No conclusion was drawn, I just thought some folks might find this 
  >>  interesting. I now have no concerns using this paper.

  >>  Mike



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On 3/15/02 9:42 AM, "John Thompson" <alphajohn@...> wrote:

> German glass installed at the factory)


The German glass?  I'll bet


----------------------------------
Lawrence W. Smith Photography
http://www.lwsphoto.com
lsmith@...
----------------------------------

On 3/15/02 9:48 AM, "Lawrence Smith" <lsmith@...> wrote:

> On 3/15/02 9:42 AM, "John Thompson" <alphajohn@...> wrote:
> 
>> German glass installed at the factory)
> 
> 
> The German glass?  I'll bet
> 


Sorry, accidentally hit the return key and sent the message prematurely.
What I was going to say was that I'd bet that it could have some UV blockers
from the factory.  One of my cars had some kind of UV protection...

Lawrence


----------------------------------
Lawrence W. Smith Photography
http://www.lwsphoto.com
lsmith@...
----------------------------------

In a message dated 3/15/2002 9:48:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
alphajohn@... writes:


>  had a customer complain about yellowing as well. 
> The "culprit" was finally tracked down to be the wood burning stove his 
> customer was using during colder days to supplement a central heating 
> system.

When I used to smoke cigarettes, I wondered why the nice clean soft boxes in 
my studio were turning yellow!
George J Kunze


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 09:52 AM 3/15/02 -0500, you wrote:
>   ""<> wrote:
> 
>>""<> wrote:
>> 
>>> German glass installed at the factory)
>> 
>> 
>>  I'll bet
>> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, accidentally hit the return key and sent the message prematurely.
> What I was going to say was that I'd bet that it could have some UV blockers
>  One of my cars had some kind of UV protection...
> 
> Lawrence
> ----------------------------------
> Lawrence W. Smith Photography
> http://www.lwsphoto.com
> lsmith@...
> ----------------------------------

Mike,
This is correct.  While your results are interesting (and i had a customer
who had a similar experience with Museo in the TX sun--although i don't
think the paper turned "whiter.")  Most glass for cars do, in fact, have
some UV inhibitors in them.  a better (informal) test would be to place a
sheet under non-uv glass or directly under sunlight (ie, without glass).  

This is generally how laboratory fade tests are done.

Sincerely
Robert Rex
Crane & Co
PLEASE NOTE:  WHEN REPLYING, ENSURE THAT EMAIL ADDRESS READS--

chameleon@...


IF THE "pop" IS PRESENT IN THE EMAIL ADDRESS, 
DELETE THE "pop."  
THIS IS IMPORTANT, 
OTHERWISE I WILL NOT RECEIVE YOUR MESSAGE.

I guess I made the original post some time ago about HM  
photorag 308 turning yellow. Here's what I can add today:

A dozen matted shrink-wrapped prints on HM photorag 308 were 
just returned to me today that were displayed in the store area of 
a gallery for  2 months. The paper base looks just as white as 
when I printed them.

Prints that I have at home unprotected still turn yellow quite 
rapidly. And they do not get any direct sun.

I'm thinking I have a local environment that is doing something 
here...

Also, the fact that protected (shrink-wrap or glassed) prints don't 
show the yellowing suggests that it is not UV related. I have not 
done a direct sun test so I haven't seen any "bleaching".

Also, also, I sent samples of the yellowed photorag to 
Hahnemuhle and they are apparently doing some tests at their 
lab in Germany.

If anyone's interested, I'll let the group know what I hear from 
them. They said they'd let me know in the next couple of weeks.

I am relieved that they appear to hold up well when under glass. 


Jeff Korte

On 3/15/02 3:44 PM, "ljkorte" <jeffkorte@...> wrote:

> If anyone's interested, I'll let the group know what I hear from
> them. They said they'd let me know in the next couple of weeks.


I'm interested as this is one of the papers I use a great deal.  I have not
seen  any yellowing yet but I'd like to know what comes of this.  You never
know where your work might end up and if it's environment related,
forewarned is forearmed...

Lawrence
----------------------------------
Lawrence W. Smith Photography
http://www.lwsphoto.com
lsmith@...
----------------------------------

This may be totally unrelated but I think I remember hearing about a glossy
paper which yellowed very quickly in the presence of ammonia, or some other
solvent. Do you store your paper in the vicinity of strong chemicals?

Thanks for the update.

Todd

> I guess I made the original post some time ago about HM
> photorag 308 turning yellow. Here's what I can add today:
> 
> A dozen matted shrink-wrapped prints on HM photorag 308 were
> just returned to me today that were displayed in the store area of
> a gallery for  2 months. The paper base looks just as white as
> when I printed them.
> 
> Prints that I have at home unprotected still turn yellow quite
> rapidly. And they do not get any direct sun.
> 
> I'm thinking I have a local environment that is doing something
> here...
> 
> Also, the fact that protected (shrink-wrap or glassed) prints don't
> show the yellowing suggests that it is not UV related. I have not
> done a direct sun test so I haven't seen any "bleaching".
> 
> Also, also, I sent samples of the yellowed photorag to
> Hahnemuhle and they are apparently doing some tests at their
> lab in Germany.
> 
> If anyone's interested, I'll let the group know what I hear from
> them. They said they'd let me know in the next couple of weeks.
> 
> I am relieved that they appear to hold up well when under glass.
> 
> 
> Jeff Korte

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner 
<tflash@e...> wrote:
Hi Todd,

The yellowed prints (test strips) are laying on a carpeted floor in 
a stack (I don't know what's in carpet backing, adhesive etc) and 
sitting atop the frame of a print hanging on my wall (latex 
paint??). 

No other chemicals nearby. Typical Minnesota winter -- low 
humidity.) I'm going to look into the solvent idea you mentioned. 
Thanks. 

Again, fortunately I've not seen this with properly cared for prints...

Jeff Korte


> This may be totally unrelated but I think I remember hearing 
about a glossy
> paper which yellowed very quickly in the presence of ammonia, 
or some other
> solvent. Do you store your paper in the vicinity of strong 
chemicals?

> 
> Thanks for the update.
> 
> Todd

I guess they use German Glass in German cars.

Mike


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Lawrence Smith 
<lsmith@l...> wrote:

> On 3/15/02 9:42 AM, "John Thompson" <alphajohn@m...> wrote:
> 
> > German glass installed at the factory)
> 
> 
> The German glass?  I'll bet
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------
> Lawrence W. Smith Photography
> http://www.lwsphoto.com
> lsmith@l...
> ----------------------------------

I guess they use German Glass in German cars.

Mike


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Lawrence Smith 
<lsmith@l...> wrote:

> On 3/15/02 9:42 AM, "John Thompson" <alphajohn@m...> wrote:
> 
> > German glass installed at the factory)
> 
> 
> The German glass?  I'll bet
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------
> Lawrence W. Smith Photography
> http://www.lwsphoto.com
> lsmith@l...
> ----------------------------------

Imagine what it was doing to yoru lungs! ;-(

Mike


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., toomagenta@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 3/15/2002 9:48:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
> alphajohn@m... writes:
> 
> 
> >  had a customer complain about yellowing as well. 
> > The "culprit" was finally tracked down to be the wood burning 
stove his 
> > customer was using during colder days to supplement a central 
heating 
> > system.
> 
> When I used to smoke cigarettes, I wondered why the nice clean soft 
boxes in 

> my studio were turning yellow!
> George J Kunze
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robert,

You may be correct in that. I think that most glass filters UV to a 
certain extent just due to it's properties.

Any change we can get your great Museo with better dmax?

Mike


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Rex <chameleon@i...> 
wrote:
> At 09:52 AM 3/15/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >   ""<> wrote:
> > 
> >>""<> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> German glass installed at the factory)
> >> 
> >> 
> >>  I'll bet
> >> 
> > 
> > 
> > Sorry, accidentally hit the return key and sent the message 
prematurely.
> > What I was going to say was that I'd bet that it could have some 
UV blockers
> >  One of my cars had some kind of UV protection...
> > 
> > Lawrence
> > ----------------------------------
> > Lawrence W. Smith Photography
> > http://www.lwsphoto.com
> > lsmith@l...
> > ----------------------------------
> 
> Mike,
> This is correct.  While your results are interesting (and i had a 
customer
> who had a similar experience with Museo in the TX sun--although i 
don't
> think the paper turned "whiter.")  Most glass for cars do, in fact, 
have
> some UV inhibitors in them.  a better (informal) test would be to 
place a
> sheet under non-uv glass or directly under sunlight (ie, without 
glass).  

> 
> This is generally how laboratory fade tests are done.
> 
> Sincerely
> Robert Rex
> Crane & Co
> PLEASE NOTE:  WHEN REPLYING, ENSURE THAT EMAIL ADDRESS READS--
> 
> chameleon@i...
> 
> 
> IF THE "pop" IS PRESENT IN THE EMAIL ADDRESS, 
> DELETE THE "pop."  
> THIS IS IMPORTANT, 
> OTHERWISE I WILL NOT RECEIVE YOUR MESSAGE.

Jeff,

Interesting, I have an open package of 37x47 sheet of HPR 308 in my 
office sitting on a drafting table. The plastic envelope is cut open 
on 2 sides and has been this way for the past 2 months. I checked 
today and there is no visible yellowing.

Have you check with the EPA to see if your house sits in a Strategic 
Nuclear Missle area, or perhaps near Love Canal? ;-)

Mike


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "ljkorte" <jeffkorte@m...> 
wrote:

> I guess I made the original post some time ago about HM  
> photorag 308 turning yellow. Here's what I can add today:
> 
> A dozen matted shrink-wrapped prints on HM photorag 308 were 
> just returned to me today that were displayed in the store area of 
> a gallery for  2 months. The paper base looks just as white as 
> when I printed them.
> 
> Prints that I have at home unprotected still turn yellow quite 
> rapidly. And they do not get any direct sun.
> 
> I'm thinking I have a local environment that is doing something 
> here...
> 
> Also, the fact that protected (shrink-wrap or glassed) prints don't 
> show the yellowing suggests that it is not UV related. I have not 
> done a direct sun test so I haven't seen any "bleaching".
> 
> Also, also, I sent samples of the yellowed photorag to 
> Hahnemuhle and they are apparently doing some tests at their 
> lab in Germany.
> 
> If anyone's interested, I'll let the group know what I hear from 
> them. They said they'd let me know in the next couple of weeks.
> 
> I am relieved that they appear to hold up well when under glass. 
> 
> 
> Jeff Korte

Mike,

I don't hear like I used to, but I'm sure our realtor said super FUN 
site.

Jeff


> 
> Have you check with the EPA to see if your house sits in a 
Strategic 
> Nuclear Missle area, or perhaps near Love Canal? ;-)
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "ljkorte" 
<jeffkorte@m...> 
> wrote:
> > I guess I made the original post some time ago about HM  
> > photorag 308 turning yellow. Here's what I can add today:
> > 
> > A dozen matted shrink-wrapped prints on HM photorag 308 
were 
> > just returned to me today that were displayed in the store 
area of 
> > a gallery for  2 months. The paper base looks just as white 
as 
> > when I printed them.
> > 
> > Prints that I have at home unprotected still turn yellow quite 
> > rapidly. And they do not get any direct sun.
> > 
> > I'm thinking I have a local environment that is doing 
something 
> > here...
> > 
> > Also, the fact that protected (shrink-wrap or glassed) prints 
don't 
> > show the yellowing suggests that it is not UV related. I have 
not 
> > done a direct sun test so I haven't seen any "bleaching".
> > 
> > Also, also, I sent samples of the yellowed photorag to 
> > Hahnemuhle and they are apparently doing some tests at 
their 
> > lab in Germany.
> > 
> > If anyone's interested, I'll let the group know what I hear from 
> > them. They said they'd let me know in the next couple of 
weeks.
> > 
> > I am relieved that they appear to hold up well when under 
glass. 

> > 
> > 
> > Jeff Korte