Digital BW, The Print

Morning Lawrence,

I have looked at your website, matter of fact I have it bookmarked, and I
cannot imagine a person with your talent not being welcome at any forum
about photography. While this is a digital B&W
print list and I am sure there are those who can make a living doing just
B&W, I personally have found that a great number of people still want color.

If there is anyone on this list who has not looked at his website, I would
highly recommend it.

One of the things that I have found most interesting about this list is the
incredible quality of the
B&W prints being produced by photographers here.
 I have been in this business over 30 years and when I started we were doing
only B&W because the quality of color was so bad. I had reached a conclusion
a few years ago that with the materials available today, B&W prints would
never be as good as in the past. Well, was I ever wrong, the quality being
produced with digital methods by members on this list, in my humble opinion,
has surpassed it. Paul's images for one are to strive for in the future.

I have followed this list for about nine months and have learned a great
deal from it, I am very thankful for that and plan to make the move to
digital B&W this year. I have been using digital scans from my color lab to
make corrections in photoshop and do some printing on a 1270. I had
not been satisfied with the B&W and now I at least know why and have a
chance at improving it.

I know that a lot of people on this list are concerned about the longevity
of their  prints and I think that is admirable, but I hope it doesn't cause
some not to produce and sell their beautiful images because of the ambiguity
of it. Each time Kodak came out with a new paper or film most of us were
dragged kicking and screaming to use it because we were comfortable with the
old way. Maybe rightfully or wrongfully, I don't remember any photographer
asking how long will it last. We knew color would fade and we told people
that, we actually begged them to buy B&W with the color and they would not
do it. So we gave up trying to sell the B&W prints with the color, but I
have never stopped mentioning that color will fade in the future.

Sorry about the long post, should have posted a little at a time over the 9
months.<G>

Regards,

John Douglas in OKC



Regards,

John in OKC

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Smith" <lsmith@...>
To: "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint yahoogroups.com"
<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 8:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Attention Friends


| On 3/15/02 9:24 AM, "TigerShark" <sunnyd@...> wrote:
|
| > Reviewing general habits on many lists, I have come to the conclusion
| > that only active participants on a list deserve the right to post their
| > links, and only when their work is on topic.
|
|
| My link is part of my signature and I don't post too often but I would be
| seriously pissed off if someone told me I couldn't include it because I
| didn't 'participate' enough.  I do lots of digital B&W work but my site
| actually has more color images.  I don't have a gallery dedicated to B&W
| because it does not really fit my organizational structure.  So, under
your
| 'rule', I might fall into a grey area...   Typical of how my life goes
most
| of the time ;-)
|
| Lawrence
|
| ----------------------------------
| Lawrence W. Smith Photography
| http://www.lwsphoto.com
| lsmith@...
| ----------------------------------
|
|
|
|
| Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
|
| http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
|
| Please follow these basic guidelines:
| - Include your full name with your message.
| - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
| - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
| - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
| - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
| - Complete your Yahoo profile.
| - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
|
|
|
|
| Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
|

On 3/15/02 10:31 AM, "John" <jackg@...> wrote:

> Morning Lawrence,
> 
> I have looked at your website, matter of fact I have it bookmarked


John,

Wow.  Thanks for the kind and encouraging thoughts :-)

Lawrence


----------------------------------
Lawrence W. Smith Photography
http://www.lwsphoto.com
lsmith@...
----------------------------------

i have to agree with that. I received one of his prints under the 13x19 BW 
print exchange. His printed work is as good as what you see in the web 
site. BTW for those who have never participated in an exchange.. i'd highly 
recommend it. I now have 9 13x19 B/W images that are not only great 
examples of what can be done with digital printing.. but all of them are 
being matted and hung on my walls.  (Only disappointment with your print 
Lawrence, was that it wasn't signed :^)

         jim

At 09:31 AM 3/15/2002 -0600, you wrote:

>Morning Lawrence,
>
>I have looked at your website, matter of fact I have it bookmarked, and I
>cannot imagine a person with your talent not being welcome at any forum
>about photography. While this is a digital B&W
>print list and I am sure there are those who can make a living doing just
>B&W, I personally have found that a great number of people still want color.
>
>If there is anyone on this list who has not looked at his website, I would
>highly recommend it.
>
>One of the things that I have found most interesting about this list is the
>incredible quality of the
>B&W prints being produced by photographers here.
>  I have been in this business over 30 years and when I started we were doing
>only B&W because the quality of color was so bad. I had reached a conclusion
>a few years ago that with the materials available today, B&W prints would
>never be as good as in the past. Well, was I ever wrong, the quality being
>produced with digital methods by members on this list, in my humble opinion,
>has surpassed it. Paul's images for one are to strive for in the future.
>
>I have followed this list for about nine months and have learned a great
>deal from it, I am very thankful for that and plan to make the move to
>digital B&W this year. I have been using digital scans from my color lab to
>make corrections in photoshop and do some printing on a 1270. I had
>not been satisfied with the B&W and now I at least know why and have a
>chance at improving it.
>
>I know that a lot of people on this list are concerned about the longevity
>of their  prints and I think that is admirable, but I hope it doesn't cause
>some not to produce and sell their beautiful images because of the ambiguity
>of it. Each time Kodak came out with a new paper or film most of us were
>dragged kicking and screaming to use it because we were comfortable with the
>old way. Maybe rightfully or wrongfully, I don't remember any photographer
>asking how long will it last. We knew color would fade and we told people
>that, we actually begged them to buy B&W with the color and they would not
>do it. So we gave up trying to sell the B&W prints with the color, but I
>have never stopped mentioning that color will fade in the future.
>
>Sorry about the long post, should have posted a little at a time over the 9
>months.<G>
>
>Regards,
>
>John Douglas in OKC
>
>
>
>Regards,
>
>John in OKC
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Lawrence Smith" <lsmith@...>
>To: "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint yahoogroups.com"
><DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 8:38 AM
>Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Attention Friends
>
>
>| On 3/15/02 9:24 AM, "TigerShark" <sunnyd@...> wrote:
>|
>| > Reviewing general habits on many lists, I have come to the conclusion
>| > that only active participants on a list deserve the right to post their
>| > links, and only when their work is on topic.
>|
>|
>| My link is part of my signature and I don't post too often but I would be
>| seriously pissed off if someone told me I couldn't include it because I
>| didn't 'participate' enough.  I do lots of digital B&W work but my site
>| actually has more color images.  I don't have a gallery dedicated to B&W
>| because it does not really fit my organizational structure.  So, under
>your
>| 'rule', I might fall into a grey area...   Typical of how my life goes
>most
>| of the time ;-)
>|
>| Lawrence
>|
>| ----------------------------------
>| Lawrence W. Smith Photography
>| http://www.lwsphoto.com
>| lsmith@...
>| ----------------------------------
>|
>|
>|
>|
>| Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
>other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>|
>| http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>|
>| Please follow these basic guidelines:
>| - Include your full name with your message.
>| - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>| - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
>them short.
>| - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>| - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
>| - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>| - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
>resources on the homepage.
>|
>|
>|
>|
>| Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>|
>|
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and 
>other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- Include your full name with your message.
>- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep 
>them short.
>- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
>- Complete your Yahoo profile.
>- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various 
>resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Ditto. I coordinated the 13x19 exchange, and when one member had to 
drop out, Lawrence signed up immediately. I went to his web-site, and 
was mighty impressed with his work The image he contributed to the 
exchange is fantastic.

Keep it up Lawrence!

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., JimCollum <collum@c...> 
wrote:
> i have to agree with that. I received one of his prints under the 
13x19 BW 
> print exchange. His printed work is as good as what you see in the 
web 
> site. BTW for those who have never participated in an exchange.. 
i'd highly 
> recommend it. I now have 9 13x19 B/W images that are not only great 
> examples of what can be done with digital printing.. but all of 
them are 
> being matted and hung on my walls.  (Only disappointment with your 
print 
> Lawrence, was that it wasn't signed :^)
> 
>          jim
> 
> At 09:31 AM 3/15/2002 -0600, you wrote:
> >Morning Lawrence,
> >
> >I have looked at your website, matter of fact I have it 
bookmarked, and I
> >cannot imagine a person with your talent not being welcome at any 
forum
> >about photography. While this is a digital B&W
> >print list and I am sure there are those who can make a living 
doing just
> >B&W, I personally have found that a great number of people still 
want color.
> >
> >If there is anyone on this list who has not looked at his website, 
I would
> >highly recommend it.
> >
> >One of the things that I have found most interesting about this 
list is the
> >incredible quality of the
> >B&W prints being produced by photographers here.
> >  I have been in this business over 30 years and when I started we 
were doing
> >only B&W because the quality of color was so bad. I had reached a 
conclusion
> >a few years ago that with the materials available today, B&W 
prints would
> >never be as good as in the past. Well, was I ever wrong, the 
quality being
> >produced with digital methods by members on this list, in my 
humble opinion,
> >has surpassed it. Paul's images for one are to strive for in the 
future.
> >
> >I have followed this list for about nine months and have learned a 
great
> >deal from it, I am very thankful for that and plan to make the 
move to
> >digital B&W this year. I have been using digital scans from my 
color lab to
> >make corrections in photoshop and do some printing on a 1270. I had
> >not been satisfied with the B&W and now I at least know why and 
have a
> >chance at improving it.
> >
> >I know that a lot of people on this list are concerned about the 
longevity
> >of their  prints and I think that is admirable, but I hope it 
doesn't cause
> >some not to produce and sell their beautiful images because of the 
ambiguity
> >of it. Each time Kodak came out with a new paper or film most of 
us were
> >dragged kicking and screaming to use it because we were 
comfortable with the
> >old way. Maybe rightfully or wrongfully, I don't remember any 
photographer
> >asking how long will it last. We knew color would fade and we told 
people
> >that, we actually begged them to buy B&W with the color and they 
would not
> >do it. So we gave up trying to sell the B&W prints with the color, 
but I
> >have never stopped mentioning that color will fade in the future.
> >
> >Sorry about the long post, should have posted a little at a time 
over the 9
> >months.<G>
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >John Douglas in OKC
> >
> >
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >John in OKC
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Lawrence Smith" <lsmith@l...>
> >To: "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint yahoogroups.com"
> ><DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> >Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 8:38 AM
> >Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Attention Friends
> >
> >
> >| On 3/15/02 9:24 AM, "TigerShark" <sunnyd@p...> wrote:
> >|
> >| > Reviewing general habits on many lists, I have come to the 
conclusion
> >| > that only active participants on a list deserve the right to 
post their
> >| > links, and only when their work is on topic.
> >|
> >|
> >| My link is part of my signature and I don't post too often but I 
would be
> >| seriously pissed off if someone told me I couldn't include it 
because I
> >| didn't 'participate' enough.  I do lots of digital B&W work but 
my site
> >| actually has more color images.  I don't have a gallery 
dedicated to B&W
> >| because it does not really fit my organizational structure.  So, 
under
> >your
> >| 'rule', I might fall into a grey area...   Typical of how my 
life goes
> >most
> >| of the time ;-)
> >|
> >| Lawrence
> >|
> >| ----------------------------------
> >| Lawrence W. Smith Photography
> >| http://www.lwsphoto.com
> >| lsmith@l...
> >| ----------------------------------
> >|
> >|
> >|
> >|
> >| Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and
> >other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >|
> >| http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >|
> >| Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >| - Include your full name with your message.
> >| - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> >| - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> >them short.
> >| - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the 
subject header.
> >| - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or "flames."
> >| - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> >| - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> >resources on the homepage.
> >|
> >|
> >|
> >|
> >| Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >|
> >|
> >
> >
> >
> >Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and 
> >other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> >Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >- Include your full name with your message.
> >- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> >- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
to keep 
> >them short.
> >- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> >- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or "flames."
> >- Complete your Yahoo profile.
> >- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various 
> >resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

On 3/15/02 10:42 AM, "JimCollum" <collum@...> wrote:

> BTW for those who have never participated in an exchange.. i'd highly
> recommend it. I now have 9 13x19 B/W images that are not only great
> examples of what can be done with digital printing.. but all of them are
> being matted and hung on my walls.  (Only disappointment with your print
> Lawrence, was that it wasn't signed :^)


Jim,

Thanks!  I'd have to agree with you about participating in the print
exchange.  Amazing stuff.  It was my first exchange and it was like getting
a new toy.  I was thrilled when my fedex guy rang the bell!  Sorry about the
signature thing.  As it was my first time, I was not clear on how it all
should be done.  I felt a bit lame when all the other prints had
accompanying sheets with detailed info and my had nada!  Sorry to all the
other participants as well.  Next time I'll have it together ;-)

Lawrence

----------------------------------
Lawrence W. Smith Photography
http://www.lwsphoto.com
lsmith@...
----------------------------------

> I'd have to agree with you about participating in the print
> exchange.  Amazing stuff.

Hi Lawrence & list...

I participated in the first print exchange on the Piezo list.  I must say, I
was abysmally disappointed, in fact, somewhat insulted.  Not at the images,
no, they were, as you say "amazing stuff"...but at the lack of feedback and
comments.  It's almost like it never happened!  I went out of my way to make
up a whole bunch of prints, pack them out...and I got zip in return (yes, I
did get the exchange prints, but that wasn't what I was looking for).  I
even posted a "critique" on the list, and aside from one or two others,
NADA!

So, given that, I'm hesitant to waste my time again, and participate in
these...

Regards,

Austin

On 3/15/02 11:43 AM, "Austin Franklin" <darkroom@...> wrote:

> but at the lack of feedback and
> comments.  It's almost like it never happened!


Good point.  I'm guilty of not yet doing any critiquing this time.  I can't
expect others to do something that I have not done myself.  I guess it's
time to contribute and see what happens.

Lawrence

----------------------------------
Lawrence W. Smith Photography
http://www.lwsphoto.com
lsmith@...
----------------------------------

Amen to that!

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Lawrence Smith 
<lsmith@l...> wrote:
> On 3/15/02 11:43 AM, "Austin Franklin" <darkroom@i...> wrote:
> 
> > but at the lack of feedback and
> > comments.  It's almost like it never happened!
> 
> 
> Good point.  I'm guilty of not yet doing any critiquing this time.  
I can't
> expect others to do something that I have not done myself.  I guess 
it's

> time to contribute and see what happens.
> 
> Lawrence
> 
> ----------------------------------
> Lawrence W. Smith Photography
> http://www.lwsphoto.com
> lsmith@l...
> ----------------------------------

Austin,

You know, I kind of agree with you. I did all that work thinking that it
would help steer the discussion away from technical stuff for a little
while, and toward aesthetics, style, motivations, intentions. I could
have done more to push the discussion after the exchange was over, but I
didn't think I would have to. I expected a flurry of responses, but
there wasn't much more than a bunch of "wow, nice prints!", and a couple
of threads, like yours, that never really took off. I don't feel like
the experience was a waste of time, but I was disappointed that it
didn't lead to more discussion.

I'm also disappointed that Jon dropped the ball on the exchange web
site. It would have been nice for the people that didn't participate to
be able to see all the images. Maybe that would have helped the
conversation a little.

-Jason

Austin Franklin wrote:

> 
> > I'd have to agree with you about participating in the print
> > exchange.  Amazing stuff.
> 
> Hi Lawrence & list...
> 
> I participated in the first print exchange on the Piezo list.  I must say, I
> was abysmally disappointed, in fact, somewhat insulted.  Not at the images,
> no, they were, as you say "amazing stuff"...but at the lack of feedback and
> comments.  It's almost like it never happened!  I went out of my way to make
> up a whole bunch of prints, pack them out...and I got zip in return (yes, I
> did get the exchange prints, but that wasn't what I was looking for).  I
> even posted a "critique" on the list, and aside from one or two others,
> NADA!
> 
> So, given that, I'm hesitant to waste my time again, and participate in
> these...
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Austin

Jason, Austin, All,

This has generally been an issue with the exchanges. It is rather
disappointing to send out your work and receive little or nothing back in
the way of comments.

In an attempt to overcome this I set up a private Yahoo group for the A3
exchange I moderated so that the participants could discuss the work just
among themselves and gave member access to the Photos section so that jpegs
of the images could be posted.

This resulted in close to 400 messages in three weeks among a group of 16
people. With the jpeg people even posted alternate croppings, etc.

Some major issues: It took a couple of bold individuals to get the ball
rolling by posting critiques; there is a tendency to just make technical
comments and then drift into tech discussions that could be done on the main
list; people have a hard time getting down and making comments about the
art, it seems to be an uncomfortable task; finally doing this in a strictly
text based mode is very difficult and very time consuming so patience and
some pushing is requited.

I set up a similar group for Shilesh's 13x19 exchange and only 7 out of 11
people joined and there has been little comment. I am at fault myself but
have been so involved in the A3 comments I have not yet gotten to the 13x19
exchange.

In the end if you want that kind of discussion you need to push for it. It
really needs to be in it's own group. You can't do it on the main list
simply because most of the list would not know what you were talking about
or be interested. Also if it is a private group the participants will be
more comfortable about making comments.

I hope that this is of help and will offer hope to those want to get more
out of the exchanges.

Martin Wesley

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jason DeFontes" <jason@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] ...Print Exchange


> Austin,
>
> You know, I kind of agree with you. I did all that work thinking that it
> would help steer the discussion away from technical stuff for a little
> while, and toward aesthetics, style, motivations, intentions. I could
> have done more to push the discussion after the exchange was over, but I
> didn't think I would have to. I expected a flurry of responses, but
> there wasn't much more than a bunch of "wow, nice prints!", and a couple
> of threads, like yours, that never really took off. I don't feel like
> the experience was a waste of time, but I was disappointed that it
> didn't lead to more discussion.
>
> I'm also disappointed that Jon dropped the ball on the exchange web
> site. It would have been nice for the people that didn't participate to
> be able to see all the images. Maybe that would have helped the
> conversation a little.
>
> -Jason
>
> Austin Franklin wrote:
> >
> > > I'd have to agree with you about participating in the print
> > > exchange.  Amazing stuff.
> >
> > Hi Lawrence & list...
> >
> > I participated in the first print exchange on the Piezo list.  I must
say, I
> > was abysmally disappointed, in fact, somewhat insulted.  Not at the
images,
> > no, they were, as you say "amazing stuff"...but at the lack of feedback
and
> > comments.  It's almost like it never happened!  I went out of my way to
make
> > up a whole bunch of prints, pack them out...and I got zip in return
(yes, I
> > did get the exchange prints, but that wasn't what I was looking for).  I
> > even posted a "critique" on the list, and aside from one or two others,
> > NADA!
> >
> > So, given that, I'm hesitant to waste my time again, and participate in
> > these...
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Austin
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Martin,

I think this is an excellent idea. I'm glad to hear it worked out well. 
And I'm glad that we're learning there's a little bit of art to 
moderating exchange that goes beyond the mere logistics of it. Well 
done! Wish I'd had the time to participate.

-Jason

Martin Wesley wrote:

> Jason, Austin, All,
> 
> This has generally been an issue with the exchanges. It is rather
> disappointing to send out your work and receive little or nothing back in
> the way of comments.
> 
> In an attempt to overcome this I set up a private Yahoo group for the A3
> exchange I moderated so that the participants could discuss the work just
> among themselves and gave member access to the Photos section so that jpegs
> of the images could be posted.
> 
> This resulted in close to 400 messages in three weeks among a group of 16
> people. With the jpeg people even posted alternate croppings, etc.

I think one of the reasons many didn't say anything about the prints, is that there
may have been criticism that would hurt someone's feelings. Especially someone just
starting out in Digital printing.  Although almost all of the prints in the exchange were indeed excellent quality, there were a few images
I just didn't care for. Even though an image may be perfect print quality, perfect composition, and look great, if the subject matter turns
you off, it's hard to like the print. I'm usually the kind of fellow that doesn't like to hurt anybody's feelings, so I have a hard time
criticizing someone's prints. I taught photography for a few years at our University a long time ago, and Had a lot of really bad prints
submitted. I never liked the critiquing portion of the class!

Of course one could just limit the critique to the positive things....:)

Jerry

> Austin,
>
> You know, I kind of agree with you. I did all that work thinking that it
> would help steer the discussion away from technical stuff for a little
> while, and toward aesthetics, style, motivations, intentions. I could
> have done more to push the discussion after the exchange was over, but I
> didn't think I would have to. I expected a flurry of responses, but
> there wasn't much more than a bunch of "wow, nice prints!", and a couple
> of threads, like yours, that never really took off. I don't feel like
> the experience was a waste of time, but I was disappointed that it
> didn't lead to more discussion.
>
> I'm also disappointed that Jon dropped the ball on the exchange web
> site. It would have been nice for the people that didn't participate to
> be able to see all the images. Maybe that would have helped the
> conversation a little.
>
> -Jason
>
> Austin Franklin wrote:
> >
> > > I'd have to agree with you about participating in the print
> > > exchange.  Amazing stuff.
> >
> > Hi Lawrence & list...
> >
> > I participated in the first print exchange on the Piezo list.  I must say, I
> > was abysmally disappointed, in fact, somewhat insulted.  Not at the images,
> > no, they were, as you say "amazing stuff"...but at the lack of feedback and
> > comments.  It's almost like it never happened!  I went out of my way to make
> > up a whole bunch of prints, pack them out...and I got zip in return (yes, I
> > did get the exchange prints, but that wasn't what I was looking for).  I
> > even posted a "critique" on the list, and aside from one or two others,
> > NADA!
> >
> > So, given that, I'm hesitant to waste my time again, and participate in
> > these...
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Austin
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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Hey Austin, 

I was part of the FIPPE 30 and I too was greatly disappointed that more commentary did not come from the exchange.  It did seem like it went into a vacuum.  I remember people saying things like "don't discuss it yet...I am on vacation...wait for me...."  and then nothing happend. 

I did enjoy the prints though. (grin). 

Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Austin Franklin 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 10:43 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] ...Print Exchange


  > I'd have to agree with you about participating in the print
  > exchange.  Amazing stuff.

  Hi Lawrence & list...

  I participated in the first print exchange on the Piezo list.  I must say, I
  was abysmally disappointed, in fact, somewhat insulted.  Not at the images,
  no, they were, as you say "amazing stuff"...but at the lack of feedback and
  comments.  It's almost like it never happened!  I went out of my way to make
  up a whole bunch of prints, pack them out...and I got zip in return (yes, I
  did get the exchange prints, but that wasn't what I was looking for).  I
  even posted a "critique" on the list, and aside from one or two others,
  NADA!

  So, given that, I'm hesitant to waste my time again, and participate in
  these...

  Regards,

  Austin


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In the introduction to 'Columns & Catalogs'
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0935724680/defontescom), Peter
Schjeldahl ruminates a little bit on the role of the critic, and proposes a
couple of "working questions" that I think make for a great framework for
how to enter into a critique:

1 - "Why would I have done that if I did it?" What was the artist trying to
achieve? Did they succeed?

2 - "What would I like about this if I liked it?" Maybe I'm not the intended
audience, but what can I identify about the work that is "good", regardless
of whether or not I like it. For instance, I hate musicals, but I can still
tell a good musical from a bad one.

I think it's a really interesting challenge to try to put some structure
around why you don't like something, and I think it's incredibly useful for
people to hear, when it's done in a way that's not a personal attack that
"hurts their feelings". I agree that it's hard, but I always thought that it
was the best part of the class. :-)

-Jason

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
> Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 5:38 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] ...Print Exchange
>
>
> I think one of the reasons many didn't say anything about the
> prints, is that there
> may have been criticism that would hurt someone's feelings.
> Especially someone just
> starting out in Digital printing.  Although almost all of the
> prints in the exchange were indeed excellent quality, there were
> a few images
> I just didn't care for. Even though an image may be perfect print
> quality, perfect composition, and look great, if the subject matter turns
> you off, it's hard to like the print. I'm usually the kind of
> fellow that doesn't like to hurt anybody's feelings, so I have a hard time
> criticizing someone's prints. I taught photography for a few
> years at our University a long time ago, and Had a lot of really
> bad prints
> submitted. I never liked the critiquing portion of the class!
>
> Of course one could just limit the critique to the positive things....:)
>
> Jerry

Austin, Lawrence,

I fully understand the reasoning for critiquing photographs, but on the other hand there are many people that just want to exchange images to collect others work and see what others are doing. I must honestly tell you that I love to participate in print exchanges however with over 30 years experience as a photographer and a designer I know what I like and don't like. 

I exchange images to share my work, see others work and have fun. If I wanted a portfolio review I would schedule time with Arnold Newman. This is not meant to be flippant or demeaning to others,  but a critique is not something that I am looking for in a print exchange.


Regards,

Michael J. Kravit
Architect/Photographer
Boca Raton, Florida
www.kravit.net

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Lawrence Smith 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 11:51 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] ...Print Exchange


  On 3/15/02 11:43 AM, "Austin Franklin" <darkroom@...> wrote:

  > but at the lack of feedback and
  > comments.  It's almost like it never happened!


  Good point.  I'm guilty of not yet doing any critiquing this time.  I can't
  expect others to do something that I have not done myself.  I guess it's
  time to contribute and see what happens.

  Lawrence

  ----------------------------------
  Lawrence W. Smith Photography
  http://www.lwsphoto.com
  lsmith@...
  ----------------------------------



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Austin and Lawrence
I fully agree with Michael's statement below. I am now in my first exchange and can't wait to see what others are doing and how they are doing it. I think that alot of us on the list don't actually get to see others works off of inkjet printers. I am lucky to have attended the first San Francisco Bay Area meeting of like minded photographers using inkjets. The photos presented were very impressive and inspiring. We barely had time to discuss each persons work flow etc.So the more I can see the more I can learn -- for me at this point it's more about learning than judging. Not to say that critiquing does not have value -- it clearly does. I personally would think twice about entering an exchange if I knew that my work was going to be critiqued and that that was part of the exchange, but that's just me.
Maybe future exchanges could be critiqued and the exchange with critique notes on each photo could be set up on a website somewhere.
Don Rooney

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Michael Kravit 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 3:44 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] ...Print Exchange


  Austin, Lawrence,

  I fully understand the reasoning for critiquing photographs, but on the other hand there are many people that just want to exchange images to collect others work and see what others are doing. I must honestly tell you that I love to participate in print exchanges however with over 30 years experience as a photographer and a designer I know what I like and don't like. 

  I exchange images to share my work, see others work and have fun. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well folks, we can still discuss the prints. Maybe more interesting that what we have been discussing. If each poster put it under the same name, or thread, they would all come in as a group and anyone that wasn't interested could just delete the thread.

Jerry

I believe I have something like a hundred and thirty prints or so. This is a wonderful way to collect fine art with little cost! Hope we have a print exchange each month!






Steadman Uhlich wrote:

> Hey Austin,
>
> I was part of the FIPPE 30 and I too was greatly disappointed that more commentary did not come from the exchange.  It did seem like it went into a vacuum.  I remember people saying things like "don't discuss it yet...I am on vacation...wait for me...."  and then nothing happend.
>
> I did enjoy the prints though. (grin).
>
> Steadman
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Austin Franklin
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 10:43 AM
>   Subject: [Digital BW] ...Print Exchange
>
>   > I'd have to agree with you about participating in the print
>   > exchange.  Amazing stuff.
>
>   Hi Lawrence & list...
>
>   I participated in the first print exchange on the Piezo list.  I must say, I
>   was abysmally disappointed, in fact, somewhat insulted.  Not at the images,
>   no, they were, as you say "amazing stuff"...but at the lack of feedback and
>   comments.  It's almost like it never happened!  I went out of my way to make
>   up a whole bunch of prints, pack them out...and I got zip in return (yes, I
>   did get the exchange prints, but that wasn't what I was looking for).  I
>   even posted a "critique" on the list, and aside from one or two others,
>   NADA!
>
>   So, given that, I'm hesitant to waste my time again, and participate in
>   these...
>
>   Regards,
>
>   Austin
>
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>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
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One bad thing about critiques. There are several VERY experienced and professional photographers on these lists. If I were a beginner, I would not want to criticize one with 30 or more years of photo experience with negative comments about his print, on the other hand, I would appreciate a critique.

Jer


If someone gives you a penny for your thoughts, and you throw your 2 cents in, what happens to the other penny?


Curious





Don Rooney wrote:

> Austin and Lawrence
> I fully agree with Michael's statement below. I am now in my first exchange and can't wait to see what others are doing and how they are doing it. I think that alot of us on the list don't actually get to see others works off of inkjet printers. I am lucky to have attended the first San Francisco Bay Area meeting of like minded photographers using inkjets. The photos presented were very impressive and inspiring. We barely had time to discuss each persons work flow etc.So the more I can see the more I can learn -- for me at this point it's more about learning than judging. Not to say that critiquing does not have value -- it clearly does. I personally would think twice about entering an exchange if I knew that my work was going to be critiqued and that that was part of the exchange, but that's just me.
> Maybe future exchanges could be critiqued and the exchange with critique notes on each photo could be set up on a website somewhere.
> Don Rooney
> ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Michael Kravit
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 3:44 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] ...Print Exchange
>
>   Austin, Lawrence,
>
>   I fully understand the reasoning for critiquing photographs, but on the other hand there are many people that just want to exchange images to collect others work and see what others are doing. I must honestly tell you that I love to participate in print exchanges however with over 30 years experience as a photographer and a designer I know what I like and don't like.
>
>   I exchange images to share my work, see others work and have fun.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> but
> on the other hand there are many people that just want to
> exchange images to collect others work and see what others are
> doing.

Hi Michael et al,

But in the case of the print exchange I participated in, that was not the
purpose.  It was TO critique others printing/imaging as it pertained to
digital printing...not to give my work away.  I believe that was well
understood by the participants.

> If I wanted a portfolio review I would schedule time with Arnold
> Newman.

This was not at all about portfolio reviewing, it was specifically about
digital printing...it wasn't really even about the image!  The Piezo system
was VERY new back then, and something like this gave other people a chance
to see that you CAN get 11 stops out of a scanner/film...and you can print
them too ;-)

Just an FYI, I participate in a number of lists than this one, and every
time someone posts an image, they pretty much expect critique...and pretty
much get it.  At least for me, if someone doesn't take the time to notice
what there is in my images, the image is wasted on them.  I'm not saying
that's bad, or they are bad, not at all.  I am saying that I, personally,
appreciate criticism of my work.  That's now I get better and learn things.

Regards,

Austin

Some want to hear/listen to critique of the image, some want the same for
the technical aspects of the print itself, ie inks, paper, LINES in the
print... others want both, but a few just want to collect.  So what to do...

I would imagine further guidelines when beginning a particular exchange
might help but then who wants to add to the confusion.  I was very
disappointed that there wasn't any discussion on this list's first two
exchanges. I learned more offlist which really wasn't the point of joining
in my opinion.

Mike K
>> If I wanted a portfolio review I would schedule time with Arnold
>> Newman.
Austin
> This was not at all about portfolio reviewing, it was specifically about
> digital printing...it wasn't really even about the image!  The Piezo system
> was VERY new back then, and something like this gave other people a chance
> to see that you CAN get 11 stops out of a scanner/film...and you can print
> them too ;-)

Personally I wanted to discuss the printing process.  New or not, it is good
to see and discuss the prints in hand, especially for those of us who did
not have any means to compare otherwise.  Now I do have other means... lucky
me, but there are many who still need to compare what they are achieving
with others... and discuss it.

I tried to talk about some of the prints (not the images themselves - the
printer's output)... but other than dear Martin's response, there was
nothing on this list.

> Just an FYI, I participate in a number of lists than this one, and every
> time someone posts an image, they pretty much expect critique...and pretty
> much get it.  At least for me, if someone doesn't take the time to notice
> what there is in my images, the image is wasted on them.  I'm not saying
> that's bad, or they are bad, not at all.  I am saying that I, personally,
> appreciate criticism of my work.  That's now I get better and learn things.

Absolutely Austin, well said.

Carolyn

Folks,

Please don't take my statement the wrong way. I have no problem with my work receiving criticism. I do object to the "photo club" vernacular of crits that can be canned, typed up and distributed and no one would know the difference. You know what I am talking about "Nice image, try this crop or that crop", "You have merging edges", "you have diagonals that touch a corner", "ohh nice composition, but you violated the rule of thirds!", or the one I love...."Too bad your image shows the hand of man". 

Critics use criticism to describe the work of art, they interpret it, they evaluate it, and they theorize about it. When critics criticize they don't just express their likes and dislikes nor do they just approve or disapprove of the work of art. Critics learn they ask questions in their mind, and they look for answers. I think that it was the art historian Edward Feldman that said  that criticism of a work of art is the "act of informed talk about the art".

I think it is ok to share images. I think it is also ok for some to provide criticism of the photographs, but more importantly I think that it is vitally important for Austin, Lawrence, Don, and others to feel fulfilled with the process of exchange. If that fulfillment includes criticism I think that is wonderful. On the other hand I don't consider myself enough of an informed critic to intelligently provide "informed talk about an image" Criticism is not a coldly intellectual endeavor (1).

Mike

(1) Criticizing Photographs, Terry Barrett, Mayfield Press.

Michael J. Kravit
Architect/Photographer
Boca Raton, Florida
www.kravit.net



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>Austin wrote:

>But in the case of the print exchange I participated in, that was not the
>purpose.  It was TO critique others printing/imaging as it pertained to
>digital printing...not to give my work away.  I believe that was well
>understood by the participants.

Understood, and in that case I agree 100%

>I am saying that I, personally, appreciate criticism of my work.  That's now I get better and learn things.

Yes, and I agree, you should receive that feedback otherwise the exchange is NOT working for you. If I am in one of your exchanges you have my promise that I will make every effort to provide an informed discourse about your work.

Regards,
Mike




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Carolyn wrote:

I tried to talk about some of the prints (not the images themselves - the
printer's output)... but other than dear Martin's response, there was
nothing on this list.

Carolyn,

If my memory serves me correctly, I think I studied your image of your son and wrote you a short criticism about it. Not technical in nature, but how the image moved both me and my wife. I think that is a very valid form of criticism. I know it meant a lot for us.

Mike




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes Mike you did, and I was touched ... I wasn't referring to a critique of
my images at all. I was referring to some technical things I saw in some of
the prints, my two included that I thought I could discuss. Sorry you took
what I said that way, I didn't mean it that way at all, I very much
appreciated your kind words.

It was the prints (ink to paper thru driver) that I was trying to discuss.

Carolyn

> If my memory serves me correctly, I think I studied your image of your son and
> wrote you a short criticism about it. Not technical in nature, but how the
> image moved both me and my wife. I think that is a very valid form of
> criticism. I know it meant a lot for us.
> 
> Mike

Carolyn,

One other item as I fully understand that you wanted and did not receive much input on your work. 

The only comments I received on my image was an ensuing discussion on whether or not I over sharpened my image. The funny thing is that my image was not sharpened at all. It was shot with Zeiss glass and drum scanned w/o sharpening. Amazingly, I also printed the same image years ago in platinum/palladium and I am currently talking with someone who represents a museum that wants to buy that image. The platinum version is also amazingingly detailed, and to think that the only criticism I received was about sharpening, it makes one stop and think.


Regards,

Michael J. Kravit
Architect/Photographer
Boca Raton, Florida
www.kravit.net



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Carolyn wrote:
>It was the prints (ink to paper thru driver) that I was trying to discuss.

I see, hey that is easy stuff, much more objective.

I would love to discuss technique with you over a beer, wine or Bellini ;-)

Mike


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> The only comments I received on my image was an ensuing discussion on whether
> or not I over sharpened my image. The funny thing is that my image was not
> sharpened at all. It was shot with Zeiss glass and drum scanned w/o
> sharpening. Amazingly, I also printed the same image years ago in
> platinum/palladium and I am currently talking with someone who represents a
> museum that wants to buy that image. The platinum version is also amazingingly
> detailed, and to think that the only criticism I received was about
> sharpening, it makes one stop and think.

I remember saying it was superbly detailed and whatever you were doing it
was working. That was the first mention of your image anyway, others took it
from there.

Todd

> Carolyn wrote:
>> It was the prints (ink to paper thru driver) that I was trying to discuss.
> 
> I see, hey that is easy stuff, much more objective.
Yeah!

> 
> I would love to discuss technique with you over a beer, wine or Bellini ;-)
You got it Mike...  I could use some warm Florida weather right about now...
or wait, how about that restaurant in Florence?  ;-)

Carolyn

i appreciate michael's point of view, since he has alot of experience -- but
i'd like to also offer the point of view from someone who is very new to
photography .. and digital output -- i would love critique's of a print that
i submitted to an exchange -- (thats why i put some of my stuff on photo.net
also) ..

.. since i have less that 1 yr of experience as a photographer -- i would
love comments.. maybe the exchange format could allow for people to note
wether they care to receive comments/critiques, or not --

-- ricardo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Kravit" <michael.kravit@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] ...Print Exchange


> Austin, Lawrence,
>
> I fully understand the reasoning for critiquing photographs, but on the
other hand there are many people that just want to exchange images to
collect others work and see what others are doing. I must honestly tell you
that I love to participate in print exchanges however with over 30 years
experience as a photographer and a designer I know what I like and don't
like.
>
> I exchange images to share my work, see others work and have fun. If I
wanted a portfolio review I would schedule time with Arnold Newman. This is
not meant to be flippant or demeaning to others,  but a critique is not
something that I am looking for in a print exchange.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael J. Kravit
> Architect/Photographer
> Boca Raton, Florida
> www.kravit.net
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Lawrence Smith
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 11:51 AM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] ...Print Exchange
>
>
>   On 3/15/02 11:43 AM, "Austin Franklin" <darkroom@...> wrote:
>
>   > but at the lack of feedback and
>   > comments.  It's almost like it never happened!
>
>
>   Good point.  I'm guilty of not yet doing any critiquing this time.  I
can't
>   expect others to do something that I have not done myself.  I guess it's
>   time to contribute and see what happens.
>
>   Lawrence
>
>   ----------------------------------
>   Lawrence W. Smith Photography
>   http://www.lwsphoto.com
>   lsmith@...
>   ----------------------------------
>
>
>
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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"flames."
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>
>
>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

I want to stress the point that if you want an exchange to happen in a
certain way or have particular expectations, you need to be proactive and
make it happen.

You cannot sit back and wait for it to come. Contact people. Tell them what
you think. Moderate your own group. Set your own guidelines and follow them.

People want and need to participate in an exchange on many levels. I think
that each should jump in to the degree and in the manner they desire. There
are a lot of view points and many different comfort levels. Participate
yourself and that will set the tone of what you want in return, but don't
expect that everyone will play.

Martin Wesley

Wow, we finally get an nice non-technical and important thread going and in
1:15 Yahoo is going to shut us down for 2 or 3 days. So as we fade out here,
please hold you thoughts and try to pick things up after the dust settles.

Martin

The nerve of Yahoo.

See everyone on Sunday.............
Good shooting and printing....

Mike

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Martin Wesley 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 10:45 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] ...Print Exchange


  Wow, we finally get an nice non-technical and important thread going and in
  1:15 Yahoo is going to shut us down for 2 or 3 days. So as we fade out here,
  please hold you thoughts and try to pick things up after the dust settles.

  Martin



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ok Martin... nighty night. ;-)

Carolyn

> 
> Wow, we finally get an nice non-technical and important thread going and in
> 1:15 Yahoo is going to shut us down for 2 or 3 days. So as we fade out here,
> please hold you thoughts and try to pick things up after the dust settles.
> 
> Martin

My print-exchange experience is so far limited to Anton's 
holiday-card exchange (which I think was limited to the PiezoBW 
list), Jeff Magidson's traveling show, and Tom O'Connell's not yet 
circulated exchange. But for me, at least in the smaller formats, the 
exchanges are worth the time, trouble, and expense just to get to 
examine at some length under my own light the various combinations of 
inksets, papers, and processes. A lot of that appreciation depends of 
course on how well the prints are documented. And good documentation 
would also, I assume, make it easier to say something useful about a 
print.

Sam McCandless              samcc@...

> > I'd have to agree with you about participating in the print
> > exchange.  Amazing stuff.
>
>Hi Lawrence & list...
>
>I participated in the first print exchange on the Piezo list.  I must say, I
>was abysmally disappointed, in fact, somewhat insulted.  Not at the images,
>no, they were, as you say "amazing stuff"...but at the lack of feedback and
>comments.  It's almost like it never happened!  I went out of my way to make
>up a whole bunch of prints, pack them out...and I got zip in return (yes, I
>did get the exchange prints, but that wasn't what I was looking for).  I
>even posted a "critique" on the list, and aside from one or two others,
>NADA!
>
>So, given that, I'm hesitant to waste my time again, and participate in
>these...
>
>Regards,
>
>Austin

Well, Yahoo's back but slow...

Let me respond to a couple of the posts...

Jerry- I'm committed for the foreseeable future to doing a 10-15 
exchange each month...I'm looking to all of you to speak out on the 
format, etc (theme, no-theme, etc)

Mike- I think you represent about half the people that I have 
corresponded with in organizing the last 3 months (yeah, I know the 
first one isn't mailed yet <g>...it will be next week). 

Ricardo- you represent the "new blood" who we all want to be sure we 
help and encourage without intimidation. More of the "new folks" are 
somewhat hesitant and worried they shouldn't participate. I encourage 
anyone to give it a try...some of the best things I've learned in 
life have come from "newcomers" regardless of the discipline.

Martin- you hit the nail on the head...we can all get from this list 
and from exchanges whatever we want, but there isn't some "ask 
peeves" feature that is going to provide it... We need to speak out 
and join in.

As it stands right now, my assessment is that most exchangers are 
looking to see each others work for lots of reasons...one of the 
strongest isn't to get a public critique but to be able to email the 
creator of some of the fantastic prints they received and ask him/her 
what did they do about XXXX to make it. To foster this, I send each 
participant an email list of all the others. This doesn't even take 
into account how much you can learn from the data sheet that each 
person includes with the print (one even included a 4 page photo 
illustrated tutorial).

I'm glad to see this discussion thread... I'm reading it carefully 
looking for ways to improve the format I'm using...and hoping there 
might be some gems I can implement.

Tom O'Connell

TomOC@...
www.thomasoconnell.com


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael Kravit" 
<michael.kravit@w...> wrote:
> The nerve of Yahoo.
> 
> See everyone on Sunday.............
> Good shooting and printing....
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Martin Wesley 
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y... 
>   Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 10:45 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] ...Print Exchange
> 
> 
>   Wow, we finally get an nice non-technical and important thread 
going and in
>   1:15 Yahoo is going to shut us down for 2 or 3 days. So as we 
fade out here,
>   please hold you thoughts and try to pick things up after the dust 
settles.

> 
>   Martin
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I'm glad to see this discussion thread... I'm reading it carefully
> looking for ways to improve the format I'm using...and hoping there
> might be some gems I can implement.

The one thing I would say would increase the value of the exchanges is if
the images were posted on the web in a cohesive place, with the ability to
add comments limited to  other participants who have seen the images first
hand.

Austin

Austin,

Use a Yahoo group and you can make it private and have all the features you
want.

Martin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Austin Franklin" <darkroom@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2002 5:40 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] ...Print Exchange


> > I'm glad to see this discussion thread... I'm reading it carefully
> > looking for ways to improve the format I'm using...and hoping there
> > might be some gems I can implement.
>
> The one thing I would say would increase the value of the exchanges is if
> the images were posted on the web in a cohesive place, with the ability to
> add comments limited to  other participants who have seen the images first
> hand.
>
> Austin
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Martin-

Would that be easier (better) than posting here as an album?

Tom O'Connell

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> Austin,
> 
> Use a Yahoo group and you can make it private and have all the 
features you
> want.
> 
> Martin
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Austin Franklin" <darkroom@i...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2002 5:40 PM
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] ...Print Exchange
> 
> 
> > > I'm glad to see this discussion thread... I'm reading it 
carefully
> > > looking for ways to improve the format I'm using...and hoping 
there
> > > might be some gems I can implement.
> >
> > The one thing I would say would increase the value of the 
exchanges is if
> > the images were posted on the web in a cohesive place, with the 
ability to
> > add comments limited to  other participants who have seen the 
images first
> > hand.
> >
> > Austin
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> >
> >
> >

Tom,

Once you have done it you can actually set up a Yahoo group in about 60
seconds.

On this list only Antonis and I can upload photos and neither of us really
wants to take on any more of that type of activity. We would rather see the
individual exchange moderators and/or participants handling that themselves.
If you want to open viewing up to the public from the private group you can
always change the group settings and post the URL here.

Open up a dummy group on Yahoo and play around with it a bit and you will
see how easy it is.

Martin

----- Original Message -----
From: "tomoc" <tomoc@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2002 9:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] ...Print Exchange


> Martin-
>
> Would that be easier (better) than posting here as an album?
>
> Tom O'Connell
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > Austin,
> >
> > Use a Yahoo group and you can make it private and have all the
> features you
> > want.
> >
> > Martin
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Austin Franklin" <darkroom@i...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2002 5:40 PM
> > Subject: RE: [Digital BW] ...Print Exchange
> >
> >
> > > > I'm glad to see this discussion thread... I'm reading it
> carefully
> > > > looking for ways to improve the format I'm using...and hoping
> there
> > > > might be some gems I can implement.
> > >
> > > The one thing I would say would increase the value of the
> exchanges is if
> > > the images were posted on the web in a cohesive place, with the
> ability to
> > > add comments limited to  other participants who have seen the
> images first
> > > hand.
> > >
> > > Austin
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and
> > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> messages to keep
> > them short.
> > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks
> or "flames."
> > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>