Digital BW, The Print

From: <mike.dawson@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 8:20 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] MIS vs. Piezo... again


> Quick background...
>
> I got into b&w inkjet printing a year ago with MIS 6-tone inks on
> Epson 1200.  I scan 35mm film with a Nikon LS-2000 (16-bit).  While
> amazed at first I soon grew critical of the output.  I was using the
> Brandin curves at the time.  Under close scrutiny you could notice
> subtle posterization, lack of tone in highlight areas, fuzzy edges due
> to what looked like ink bleeding (Concorde Rag, Somerset Enhanced),
> etc.
>
> I decided to give Piezo a try and was successful from the get-go.  The
> same prints which looked terrible with MIS were terrific with Piezo.
> The only problem with Piezo, to me, is the cost and the incessant
> nozzle clogging.
>
> I am now reading about the Roarke curves, Variable-Tone inks,
> Full-Spectrum inks, etc.  This latest news has me contemplating MIS
> inks again.
>
> 1. Any comments on the Brandin curves?  Are the complaints I list
> above known problems with the Brandin curves?
>
> 2. Will I get better results with the Roarke curves (compared to the
> Brandin curves)?  Are Roarke curves available for the original inks or
> do I have to use the Variable-Tone inkset?  I do admit that the
> variable tone capability is enticing.
>
> 3. I am really intrigued by the Full Spectrum inks and the fact that
> they can be used with the Piezo software.  Alas, I just sold off my 2
> 1160 printers and there does not seem to be a hextone set of these
> inks available.  Are there plans to produce hextone?
>
> 4. Any comments on the comparative quality of a Woolf workflow
> quadtone print vs. a Roarke Variable tone print with zero blue?
>
> 5. Ignoring cost... would anyone care to give a perfectionists opinion
> on whether the Piezo driver with the Full Spectrum inks gives superior
> prints to the Epson driver?
>
> 6. I'm not into the whole "blacker blacks" or "cooler tones" topics
> that are issues for many.  My priority is dot-less output, continuous
> tone, no posterization, near-zero ink bleed.  Given this would anyone
> care to rank the quality of a) Piezo ink and b) MIS inks with c) Piezo
> driver and d) Epson driver?
>
> That's a lot of questions but thanks for any and all input.
>
> Mike Dawson
>
>
> The Group Homepage can be found at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

> Quick background...
>
> I got into b&w inkjet printing a year ago with MIS 6-tone inks on
> Epson 1200.  I scan 35mm film with a Nikon LS-2000 (16-bit).  While
> amazed at first I soon grew critical of the output.  I was using the
> Brandin curves at the time.  Under close scrutiny you could notice
> subtle posterization, lack of tone in highlight areas, fuzzy edges due
> to what looked like ink bleeding (Concorde Rag, Somerset Enhanced),
> etc.
>
> I decided to give Piezo a try and was successful from the get-go.  The
> same prints which looked terrible with MIS were terrific with Piezo.
> The only problem with Piezo, to me, is the cost and the incessant
> nozzle clogging.
>
> I am now reading about the Roarke curves, Variable-Tone inks,
> Full-Spectrum inks, etc.  This latest news has me contemplating MIS
> inks again.
>
> 1. Any comments on the Brandin curves?  Are the complaints I list
> above known problems with the Brandin curves?
>
> 2. Will I get better results with the Roarke curves (compared to the
> Brandin curves)?  Are Roarke curves available for the original inks or
> do I have to use the Variable-Tone inkset?  I do admit that the
> variable tone capability is enticing.
>
> 3. I am really intrigued by the Full Spectrum inks and the fact that
> they can be used with the Piezo software.  Alas, I just sold off my 2
> 1160 printers and there does not seem to be a hextone set of these
> inks available.  Are there plans to produce hextone?
>
> 4. Any comments on the comparative quality of a Woolf workflow
> quadtone print vs. a Roarke Variable tone print with zero blue?
>
> 5. Ignoring cost... would anyone care to give a perfectionists opinion
> on whether the Piezo driver with the Full Spectrum inks gives superior
> prints to the Epson driver?
>
> 6. I'm not into the whole "blacker blacks" or "cooler tones" topics
> that are issues for many.  My priority is dot-less output, continuous
> tone, no posterization, near-zero ink bleed.  Given this would anyone
> care to rank the quality of a) Piezo ink and b) MIS inks with c) Piezo
> driver and d) Epson driver?
>
> That's a lot of questions but thanks for any and all input.
>
> Mike Dawson
>
> The Group Homepage can be found at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> When I try a new paper I always print the Cone test file  'Proof of Piezography' first and I find that from this I get a good idea as to how the paper will react to the inks. I am particularly interested in the resolution of the 1% steps in the 92%-100% blacks and 1%-9% Whites as the ability of Piezo to resolve these well, albeit on very few papers, is a considerable achievement.
>
> When I got my MIS variable tone inset and Paul Roark curves I had been working on an image that had a side of a mountain that was in deep shadow. Piezo printed this with great richness and detail. MIS inks produced a totally different and unwanted effect with a much expanded tonal range in the shadows.
>
> So I returned to the proof of piezography file that I should have been first using for  testing in the beginning. If I print the file with the piezo driver on Epson Archival Matte I can see that it just can resolve the blacks from 92% - 100% in 1% increments. Likewise with the MIS inks and the Roark curve. BUT the MIS 92% is much lighter than the Piezo 92% to the point that the MIS prints looks as if it is showing 2% steps.
>
> Is this something inherent with the MIS solution or am I missing something.
>
> Apart from this I think that the Roark/MIS combo is stunning and the ability to change the image color is most welcome.
>
> Adrian Joyner
> Clevedon
> England
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> The Group Homepage can be found at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> Quick background...
>
> I got into b&w inkjet printing a year ago with MIS 6-tone inks on
> Epson 1200.  I scan 35mm film with a Nikon LS-2000 (16-bit).  While
> amazed at first I soon grew critical of the output.  I was using the
> Brandin curves at the time.  Under close scrutiny you could notice
> subtle posterization, lack of tone in highlight areas, fuzzy edges due
> to what looked like ink bleeding (Concorde Rag, Somerset Enhanced),
> etc.
>
> I decided to give Piezo a try and was successful from the get-go.  The
> same prints which looked terrible with MIS were terrific with Piezo.
> The only problem with Piezo, to me, is the cost and the incessant
> nozzle clogging.
>
> I am now reading about the Roarke curves, Variable-Tone inks,
> Full-Spectrum inks, etc.  This latest news has me contemplating MIS
> inks again.
>
> 1. Any comments on the Brandin curves?  Are the complaints I list
> above known problems with the Brandin curves?
>
> 2. Will I get better results with the Roarke curves (compared to the
> Brandin curves)?  Are Roarke curves available for the original inks or
> do I have to use the Variable-Tone inkset?  I do admit that the
> variable tone capability is enticing.
>
> 3. I am really intrigued by the Full Spectrum inks and the fact that
> they can be used with the Piezo software.  Alas, I just sold off my 2
> 1160 printers and there does not seem to be a hextone set of these
> inks available.  Are there plans to produce hextone?
>
> 4. Any comments on the comparative quality of a Woolf workflow
> quadtone print vs. a Roarke Variable tone print with zero blue?
>
> 5. Ignoring cost... would anyone care to give a perfectionists opinion
> on whether the Piezo driver with the Full Spectrum inks gives superior
> prints to the Epson driver?
>
> 6. I'm not into the whole "blacker blacks" or "cooler tones" topics
> that are issues for many.  My priority is dot-less output, continuous
> tone, no posterization, near-zero ink bleed.  Given this would anyone
> care to rank the quality of a) Piezo ink and b) MIS inks with c) Piezo
> driver and d) Epson driver?
>
> That's a lot of questions but thanks for any and all input.
>
> Mike Dawson
>
> The Group Homepage can be found at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jerry Olson 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 4:09 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS vs. Piezo... again


  Adrian,

  I've been using Pauls Curves/MIS inks from the first set Paul Made. I imagine you can make a transfer curve if you want so you can lose those shadow details. But I thought that is what everybody wanted. GREAT shadow detail, and still be able to get a pure 100 percent black! If you want to lose the shadows, you can always make an adjustment curve in photoshop that will take them down to what ever you want them to be, and save
  the curve for use elsewhere.  Paul's curves are not finalized yet, but he is closing in on the final ones now.

  Jerry



  Adrian Joyner wrote:

  > When I try a new paper I always print the Cone test file  'Proof of Piezography' first and I find that from this I get a good idea as to how the paper will react to the inks. I am particularly interested in the resolution of the 1% steps in the 92%-100% blacks and 1%-9% Whites as the ability of Piezo to resolve these well, albeit on very few papers, is a considerable achievement.
  >
  > When I got my MIS variable tone inset and Paul Roark curves I had been working on an image that had a side of a mountain that was in deep shadow. Piezo printed this with great richness and detail. MIS inks produced a totally different and unwanted effect with a much expanded tonal range in the shadows.
  >
  > So I returned to the proof of piezography file that I should have been first using for  testing in the beginning. If I print the file with the piezo driver on Epson Archival Matte I can see that it just can resolve the blacks from 92% - 100% in 1% increments. Likewise with the MIS inks and the Roark curve. BUT the MIS 92% is much lighter than the Piezo 92% to the point that the MIS prints looks as if it is showing 2% steps.
  >
  > Is this something inherent with the MIS solution or am I missing something.
  >
  > Apart from this I think that the Roark/MIS combo is stunning and the ability to change the image color is most welcome.
  >
  > Adrian Joyner
  > Clevedon
  > England
  >
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >
  >
  > The Group Homepage can be found at:
  >
  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
  >
  >
  >
  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Jerry
>
> Perhaps I didn't explain my observation as well as I should.
>
> I don't want to lose or compress any shadow detail whatsoever. Piezo on some papers, especially Wells River,  the new Photo Rag and to a slightly lesser extent Epson Archival Matte  is capable of printing  and differentiating between 90% and 100% blacks in 1% increments. I can see that on the proof of piezography test print and on my images that rely on shadow detail quite easily.. I want a deep black and I want to visibly see all the small changes and nuances of black tone  in the shadows in as discrete and subtle increments as possible.
>
> What I don't want to see is that shadow detail is expanded by just lowering the 90% black to say 85% which is what I perceive with my MIS set-up so that what Piezo would have printed as a dark but not absolute black is printed as a deep gray by MIS.
>
> Maybe there is something wrong with my set-up. Paul has asked me for details which I have sent him. To echo others we should all be grateful for his efforts on our behalf.
>
> Adrian Joyner
> Clevedon
> England
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Jerry Olson
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 4:09 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS vs. Piezo... again
>
>   Adrian,
>
>   I've been using Pauls Curves/MIS inks from the first set Paul Made. I imagine you can make a transfer curve if you want so you can lose those shadow details. But I thought that is what everybody wanted. GREAT shadow detail, and still be able to get a pure 100 percent black! If you want to lose the shadows, you can always make an adjustment curve in photoshop that will take them down to what ever you want them to be, and save
>   the curve for use elsewhere.  Paul's curves are not finalized yet, but he is closing in on the final ones now.
>
>   Jerry
>
>   Adrian Joyner wrote:
>
>   > When I try a new paper I always print the Cone test file  'Proof of Piezography' first and I find that from this I get a good idea as to how the paper will react to the inks. I am particularly interested in the resolution of the 1% steps in the 92%-100% blacks and 1%-9% Whites as the ability of Piezo to resolve these well, albeit on very few papers, is a considerable achievement.
>   >
>   > When I got my MIS variable tone inset and Paul Roark curves I had been working on an image that had a side of a mountain that was in deep shadow. Piezo printed this with great richness and detail. MIS inks produced a totally different and unwanted effect with a much expanded tonal range in the shadows.
>   >
>   > So I returned to the proof of piezography file that I should have been first using for  testing in the beginning. If I print the file with the piezo driver on Epson Archival Matte I can see that it just can resolve the blacks from 92% - 100% in 1% increments. Likewise with the MIS inks and the Roark curve. BUT the MIS 92% is much lighter than the Piezo 92% to the point that the MIS prints looks as if it is showing 2% steps.
>   >
>   > Is this something inherent with the MIS solution or am I missing something.
>   >
>   > Apart from this I think that the Roark/MIS combo is stunning and the ability to change the image color is most welcome.
>   >
>   > Adrian Joyner
>   > Clevedon
>   > England
>   >
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   >
>   >
>   > The Group Homepage can be found at:
>   >
>   > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>               ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>   The Group Homepage can be found at:
>
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage often and check the resources their regularly. The page can be found at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jerry Olson 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 3:53 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS vs. Piezo... again


  Adrian, which curve are you using with MIS? Paul is up to the 15th version of his cool curve now. The first ones were not accurate, of course. They still are not finalized. I don't seem to have any problems with his current curves. The latest ones are all very good, he is now just super fine tuning them.

  Jerry



  Adrian Joyner wrote:

  > Jerry
  >
  > Perhaps I didn't explain my observation as well as I should.
  >
  > I don't want to lose or compress any shadow detail whatsoever. Piezo on some papers, especially Wells River,  the new Photo Rag and to a slightly lesser extent Epson Archival Matte  is capable of printing  and differentiating between 90% and 100% blacks in 1% increments. I can see that on the proof of piezography test print and on my images that rely on shadow detail quite easily.. I want a deep black and I want to visibly see all the small changes and nuances of black tone  in the shadows in as discrete and subtle increments as possible.
  >
  > What I don't want to see is that shadow detail is expanded by just lowering the 90% black to say 85% which is what I perceive with my MIS set-up so that what Piezo would have printed as a dark but not absolute black is printed as a deep gray by MIS.
  >
  > Maybe there is something wrong with my set-up. Paul has asked me for details which I have sent him. To echo others we should all be grateful for his efforts on our behalf.
  >
  > Adrian Joyner
  > Clevedon
  > England
  >



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Jerry
>
> Paul has been so good to email me to ensure that I had set-up the 1160/MIS absolutely correctly. I hadn't as the colorspace was wrong. That guy has worked so hard to get this process right.
>
> I explained to Paul that after printing the ProofofPiezography file again I had to say that the MIS 92% is still
> noticeably lighter than the Piezo 92% and consequently my very dark Scottish hillside image still looks strange with what I still consider to be artificial and unnecessary stretching of the dark tones
>
> But I'm also inclined to say 'What the heck' as I've printed out another dozen more conventional  contrast previously Piezo images and there isn't one that I definitely prefer in Piezo and many that look better in MIS/Roark. If I add into the evaluation I have a choice of tone, I don't get clogs or banding and the price of the MIS inks then I am very happy".
>
> I'm certainly not giving up on Piezo as it is still a very formidable system and for some images may still be unsurpassable but the MIS/Roark VM is here to stay in my image making toolbox. I just hope that Jon Cone responds aggressively with some new products or developments and we will all benefit.
>
> Adrian Joyner
> Clevedon
> England
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Jerry Olson
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 3:53 AM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS vs. Piezo... again
>
>   Adrian, which curve are you using with MIS? Paul is up to the 15th version of his cool curve now. The first ones were not accurate, of course. They still are not finalized. I don't seem to have any problems with his current curves. The latest ones are all very good, he is now just super fine tuning them.
>
>   Jerry
>
>   Adrian Joyner wrote:
>
>   > Jerry
>   >
>   > Perhaps I didn't explain my observation as well as I should.
>   >
>   > I don't want to lose or compress any shadow detail whatsoever. Piezo on some papers, especially Wells River,  the new Photo Rag and to a slightly lesser extent Epson Archival Matte  is capable of printing  and differentiating between 90% and 100% blacks in 1% increments. I can see that on the proof of piezography test print and on my images that rely on shadow detail quite easily.. I want a deep black and I want to visibly see all the small changes and nuances of black tone  in the shadows in as discrete and subtle increments as possible.
>   >
>   > What I don't want to see is that shadow detail is expanded by just lowering the 90% black to say 85% which is what I perceive with my MIS set-up so that what Piezo would have printed as a dark but not absolute black is printed as a deep gray by MIS.
>   >
>   > Maybe there is something wrong with my set-up. Paul has asked me for details which I have sent him. To echo others we should all be grateful for his efforts on our behalf.
>   >
>   > Adrian Joyner
>   > Clevedon
>   > England
>   >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage often and check the resources their regularly. The page can be found at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/