Digital BW, The Print

Yes, It seems as most all the photo magazines are geared towards the beginner or
amateurs now. Especially all the Digital Magazines. There's a couple of good ones,
View Camera, The much renamed Photo Techniques, (seems there's also a british
version of this, that's fun to read), Camera Arts, etc. When I was in L.A. Many
years ago, There were a few from France, Japan, and Germany, but they aren't in
our local Barnes and Noble, so have lost track of them.

Jerry

You don't hear much from Bill Bergh or Jon on the lists anymore either. I suppose
he is fed up with people talking about alternate inks that actually result in as
good a print as his inks for 1/5th the price!









antonisphoto@... wrote:

> I remember back in December, Bob Shell - of Shutterbug fame - saying he
> was trying to set up piezo and wasn't getting his emails returned by Jon Cone
> or inkjetmall. I don't know if he ever reviewed it, but if anyone here knows of
> any reviews, please bring them up.
>
> I do have the same impression as you Jerry, that they are, in fact, falling
> behind (excluding George deWolfe's magazines of course).
>
> Antonis
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> > Anyone know why you practically never see any of these inks or inkjet black
> and white printing in any of the
> > photographic magazines? Are they really that far behind the times?  There
> was a couple of the pro magazines that
> > mentioned piezography, but not in depth. I don't think I've ever seen a CIS
> system reviewed in ANY magazine.
> >
> > Jerry
>
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>
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>
>------------------------------------------------
>Here is Jon Cones answer............
>
>"I hear you. I really do. What looks one way one day has a way of getting
>completely turned around the next. We are a company about progress...  there
>are things on the horizon which may possibly change your heart."
>
>Can anyone figure out what he said?


Yup.  FUD.

Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.  Standard practice in the high tech world.

Peter McLennan

> Here is Jon Cones answer............
> 
> "I hear you. I really do. What looks one way one day has a way of getting
> completely turned around the next. We are a company about progress...  there
> are things on the horizon which may possibly change your heart."
> 
> Can anyone figure out what he said?
> 
> Mike


He said: "no comment"

Todd

Mike,

it seems that Jon has some things in development he doesn't want to discuss 
or disclose. Who knows. As we all watch this technology evolve, the inks and 
papers constantly evolving with more players and end-users coming into this 
arena, the going will get tough.  

But I wonder: How many piezo customers are there? Of those, how many buy 
other than inks and software from inkjetmall? How much profit does all this 
make vs the overhead of running the operation and keeping up with tech sup?
I feel supportive of Jon's efforts for delivering such a great product and 
supporting it as well as he and Bill Berg have. Beyond that, the reality of the 
marketplace and economics takes over. If a competing product does the same 
for less, so be it. But I still wonder,  at the end of the day, what the dollar 
figures are behind the 800+ people on the piezo list and the 200+ people 
here. It's probably why Epson hasn't spent the R&D yen....


Antonis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael J. Kravit" <kravit@b...> 
wrote:
> I wrote Jon Cone three times in the Past three weeks about a few topics. In 
one message asking him when he would have bulk inks and software 
upgrades for the 7000 RIP available he answered me in a very uncommital 
and confusing manner. 

> ------------------------------------------------
> Here is Jon Cones answer............
> 
> "I hear you. I really do. What looks one way one day has a way of getting
> completely turned around the next. We are a company about progress...  
there

> are things on the horizon which may possibly change your heart."
> 
> Can anyone figure out what he said?
> 
> Mike

Clearly he implies that he may buy MIS or MIS may buy him....or not. 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Michael J. Kravit 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 10:06 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] BWdigital printing in photo mags - not


  I wrote Jon Cone three times in the Past three weeks about a few topics. In one message asking him when he would have bulk inks and software upgrades for the 7000 RIP available he answered me in a very uncommital and confusing manner. 

  ----------------------------------------------
  Here is what I asked him...........

  Many of us have invested in the BW24 RIP for the 7000 and it produces 
  wonderful continuous tone prints. Lately, a number of other companies 
  have released quad and hex tone products including one as a 
  replacement for the Piezo inks at a substantially lower cost.

  I for one, love the Piezo inkset. I have requested that Cone make the 
  inks available in the 9000 carts so that we could have 220ml of ink 
  vs. the 7000 110ml carts. Thereby offering economies of scale and of 
  course less need to change carts as often. Jon you indicated that IJM has 
  no plans to do this.

  I recently tested Paul Roarks Variable Tone inkset with the Epson 
  driver. The prints are dotless, and offer the option of tailoring the 
  tone of the print. In testing, the inks do not shift color and any 
  shifting stabilizes much sooner than the Piezo inks.

  My point is the Piezo BW24 7000 system may begin to loose customers 
  if Inkjet Mall does not begin to respond a bit more to our needs and 
  desires. Please do not get me wrong, I love the Piezo BW24 system, I 
  only want to ensure that it will be here in the long run after 
  investing in the software.

  If inks are not available in the larger carts or a bulk system, and 
  other manufacturer's provide comprable products are substantially 
  lower in cost, people will begin to change to the other prodcuts.

  Jon, I think it may be time to release a new driver with the 
  improvements we have requested and think about how the inkset is 
  delivered.

  ------------------------------------------------
  Here is Jon Cones answer............

  "I hear you. I really do. What looks one way one day has a way of getting
  completely turned around the next. We are a company about progress...  there
  are things on the horizon which may possibly change your heart."

  Can anyone figure out what he said?

  Mike



  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I wrote Jon Cone three times in the Past three weeks about a few topics. In one message asking him when he would have bulk inks and software upgrades for the 7000 RIP available he answered me in a very uncommital and confusing manner. 

----------------------------------------------
Here is what I asked him...........

Many of us have invested in the BW24 RIP for the 7000 and it produces 
wonderful continuous tone prints. Lately, a number of other companies 
have released quad and hex tone products including one as a 
replacement for the Piezo inks at a substantially lower cost.

I for one, love the Piezo inkset. I have requested that Cone make the 
inks available in the 9000 carts so that we could have 220ml of ink 
vs. the 7000 110ml carts. Thereby offering economies of scale and of 
course less need to change carts as often. Jon you indicated that IJM has 
no plans to do this.

I recently tested Paul Roarks Variable Tone inkset with the Epson 
driver. The prints are dotless, and offer the option of tailoring the 
tone of the print. In testing, the inks do not shift color and any 
shifting stabilizes much sooner than the Piezo inks.

My point is the Piezo BW24 7000 system may begin to loose customers 
if Inkjet Mall does not begin to respond a bit more to our needs and 
desires. Please do not get me wrong, I love the Piezo BW24 system, I 
only want to ensure that it will be here in the long run after 
investing in the software.

If inks are not available in the larger carts or a bulk system, and 
other manufacturer's provide comprable products are substantially 
lower in cost, people will begin to change to the other prodcuts.

Jon, I think it may be time to release a new driver with the 
improvements we have requested and think about how the inkset is 
delivered.

------------------------------------------------
Here is Jon Cones answer............

"I hear you. I really do. What looks one way one day has a way of getting
completely turned around the next. We are a company about progress...  there
are things on the horizon which may possibly change your heart."

Can anyone figure out what he said?

Mike



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

OK all!

I'll play Devil's advocate... as many of you have rightly pointed out that
the text of this reply from Jon is not really saying anything.

On the other hand... maybe, the products in development are those that are
'on the horizon' and I believe we know that these are at least accounted for
by:
1) Inks based on Selenium toning;
2) A new Cone-badged printer;
3) A new Piezo BW entry level driver - hopefully with additions to the Pro24
driver (my addition) - but for example I believe it has been stated in the
archives that there will be some simplified margin / centering controls in
the next full release;
4) Piezo Color software plugin.

I can't tell you anything that isn't already public (read: I don't know, not
'I know, but can't say') and all of the above is from memory of public lists
anyway. I believe that Jon C is not giving you the above simply because they
have 'learnt their lesson' from Vapourware claims and current issues with
the colour ink set.

Something that I have noticed from a few Yahoo groups is what I would call
'support churn'. That is, a supplier (say Epson Mike, or Shelby from
Inkjetmall, or ...) - posts an informative thread on 'status' or 'product'
or 'freebie' (in fact I have never known Inkjetmall to 'advertise' on their
groups) - and this is rapidly followed by a churn of emails 'did you mean
this?' 'what about that?' etc. Perhaps this is natural of us the
group-reader. But this adds substantially to the support levels encountered
by the company - if they succeed, great, if they don't - they have been
talking vapourware (the readers say). I think that we sometimes need to be a
little more cautious about the questions we ask. We tend to be dealing with
small companies, after all... for whom a couple of people going to a show
can be a big-deal on the staffing level side.

I am worried that companies will stop posting anything other than 'press
releases' (if at all) to groups even they own, on the basis of the follow-on
requirements for support.

Finally, I am 'associated', but not tied to Inkjetmall / Cone Editions
Press. I am just setting up a UK company for resale of digital fine-art
products. You will find out more when I am ready to tell you :) - but I am
not tied to one supplier. The content of this group is interesting to me
with the talk of similar, but often complimentary products (they don't all
do the same thing). I hope most of you know that I take a balnced view of
most things in life :)

All the best,
Nij



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael J. Kravit [mailto:kravit@...]
<snip>

> ------------------------------------------------
> Here is Jon Cones answer............
>
> "I hear you. I really do. What looks one way one day has a way of getting
> completely turned around the next. We are a company about
> progress...  there
> are things on the horizon which may possibly change your heart."
>
> Can anyone figure out what he said?
>
> Mike

Hi all,
I can't remember if I have posted this before, but I suppose it bears 
repeating here if I have.  I spoke with a Cone employee at photowest 
back in June.  Don't remember his name, but I asked him if there will 
be piezobw for the 9000.  He replied that the piezobw RIP for the
7000 
will work perfectly for the 9000, and it is just a matter of putting 
the ink into carts that large.  I can't remember what his excuse was 
for not putting the inks in the large carts, but the feeling I left 
with was pretty much "don't hold your breath"

My 9000 loaded with fotonic is still giving me color casts, so who 
knows, I may wind up with MIS some day.

But now I have a question.  My 1160 is running piezobw with CIS.  The 
microbanding does not show up on exactly one paper (wells river), and 
even then, it is on an image by image basis.  When I used color ink 
and the epson driver - no banding at all.  Would my cure be to switch 
to MIS FS and print to the epson driver?  It seems like that would 
kill all microbanding I get through Cone, but with the quality and 
"dotlessness" of the Cone system.  Am I right on this assumption?  I 
am getting low on one color of my Cone ink, and for the price of that 
one color,  I could just switch all of the colors over to MIS.  Talk 
about tempting!

Thanks to all.  To me, this is the best forum on the net.

Tony Caltabiano

Sounds like he was talking like most corporations when you call and are put on hold: Your call is very important to us.....   Of Course it is. That's why they keep you on hold for 20 minutes, playing the most obnoxious music in the free
world. They care SO much about us.

It's been over two years now since Cone said he's coming out with his cold tone inks "real soon" now.  Too late Jon. I've switched to MIS now, and am totally happy.

Jerry



Steadman Uhlich wrote:

> Clearly he implies that he may buy MIS or MIS may buy him....or not.
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Michael J. Kravit
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 10:06 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] BWdigital printing in photo mags - not
>
>   I wrote Jon Cone three times in the Past three weeks about a few topics. In one message asking him when he would have bulk inks and software upgrades for the 7000 RIP available he answered me in a very uncommital and confusing manner.
>
>   ----------------------------------------------
>   Here is what I asked him...........
>
>   Many of us have invested in the BW24 RIP for the 7000 and it produces
>   wonderful continuous tone prints. Lately, a number of other companies
>   have released quad and hex tone products including one as a
>   replacement for the Piezo inks at a substantially lower cost.
>
>   I for one, love the Piezo inkset. I have requested that Cone make the
>   inks available in the 9000 carts so that we could have 220ml of ink
>   vs. the 7000 110ml carts. Thereby offering economies of scale and of
>   course less need to change carts as often. Jon you indicated that IJM has
>   no plans to do this.
>
>   I recently tested Paul Roarks Variable Tone inkset with the Epson
>   driver. The prints are dotless, and offer the option of tailoring the
>   tone of the print. In testing, the inks do not shift color and any
>   shifting stabilizes much sooner than the Piezo inks.
>
>   My point is the Piezo BW24 7000 system may begin to loose customers
>   if Inkjet Mall does not begin to respond a bit more to our needs and
>   desires. Please do not get me wrong, I love the Piezo BW24 system, I
>   only want to ensure that it will be here in the long run after
>   investing in the software.
>
>   If inks are not available in the larger carts or a bulk system, and
>   other manufacturer's provide comprable products are substantially
>   lower in cost, people will begin to change to the other prodcuts.
>
>   Jon, I think it may be time to release a new driver with the
>   improvements we have requested and think about how the inkset is
>   delivered.
>
>   ------------------------------------------------
>   Here is Jon Cones answer............
>
>   "I hear you. I really do. What looks one way one day has a way of getting
>   completely turned around the next. We are a company about progress...  there
>   are things on the horizon which may possibly change your heart."
>
>   Can anyone figure out what he said?
>
>   Mike
>
>   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>               ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>   If you do not wish to belong to Digital B&W, The Print, you may
>   unsubscribe by sending an email to:
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>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> If you do not wish to belong to Digital B&W, The Print, you may
> unsubscribe by sending an email to:
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hello everyone,
A few hundred posts ago (sunday) I asked if using other's curves for 
quad blacks printing could get rid of potentially cone related 
microbanding on my 1160.  After trying Paul's curves, and the Woolf 
curves, the answer is YES YES YES.  Micro banading is GONE. Different 
images respond to different curves, and I haven't tried transfer 
funtion for tweaking yet, but I just had to share my joy with the 
group!  So for anyone out there who gets microbanding using Cone's 
driver - there is hope!  
Additional good news is something I have observed, is that my 1160 
with cone inks haven't clogged at all in months.  I left it idle for 
two months, and then after one cleaning cycle all was fine.  Since 
then, the nozzle checks all are fine.  In fact, the lasat 5 or 6 days 
I just turned on the printer and printed, don't even bother with 
nozzle checks.  The only explanation I can give is that because it
has 
been so hot here in Ca (semi desert area) we run the air conditioner 
all the time.  The 1160 sits exactly 1.5 feet above the air 
conditioning vent.  I have no idea if the placement has anything to
do 
with my good fortune, but I am knocking on wood right now.

Happy printing,
Tony

> 
> But now I have a question.  My 1160 is running piezobw with CIS.  
The 
> microbanding does not show up on exactly one paper (wells river), 
and 
> even then, it is on an image by image basis.  When I used color ink 
> and the epson driver - no banding at all.  Would my cure be to 
switch 
> to MIS FS and print to the epson driver?  It seems like that would 
> kill all microbanding I get through Cone, but with the quality and 
> "dotlessness" of the Cone system.  Am I right on this assumption? 
I 
> am getting low on one color of my Cone ink, and for the price of 
that 
> one color,  I could just switch all of the colors over to MIS. 
Talk 

> about tempting!
> 
> Thanks to all.  To me, this is the best forum on the net.

Tony,

Thanks for the info on the banding. That is one of the things that 
made me want to try the MIS VM. After endless cleaning cycles, 
physical head cleaning and head alignments my 1200 always has this 
microscopic banding pattern in any area of smooth mid tones.

I don't see this is some peoples Piezo prints and do in others. I 
suspect if you have a perfect printer you are okay with Piezo in this 
regard but if your printer is less then perfect you will have 
problems. The Epson driver, which I assume was written to take into 
account the accuracy of the printer's transport mechanism, never 
seems to give this type of problem.

I also do not see any dot pattern in the MIS VM prints I have seen.

I wish I could say the same about clogging and my 1200!

Martin



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., calpen1@a... wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> A few hundred posts ago (sunday) I asked if using other's curves 
for 
> quad blacks printing could get rid of potentially cone related 
> microbanding on my 1160.  After trying Paul's curves, and the Woolf 
> curves, the answer is YES YES YES.  Micro banading is GONE. 
Different 
> images respond to different curves, and I haven't tried transfer 
> funtion for tweaking yet, but I just had to share my joy with the 
> group!  So for anyone out there who gets microbanding using Cone's 
> driver - there is hope!  
> Additional good news is something I have observed, is that my 1160 
> with cone inks haven't clogged at all in months.  I left it idle 
for 
> two months, and then after one cleaning cycle all was fine.  Since 
> then, the nozzle checks all are fine.  In fact, the lasat 5 or 6 
days 
> I just turned on the printer and printed, don't even bother with 
> nozzle checks.  The only explanation I can give is that because it
> has 
> been so hot here in Ca (semi desert area) we run the air 
conditioner 
> all the time.  The 1160 sits exactly 1.5 feet above the air 
> conditioning vent.  I have no idea if the placement has anything to
> do 
> with my good fortune, but I am knocking on wood right now.
> 
> Happy printing,
> Tony
> 
(snip)

> Additional good news is something I have observed, is that my 1160
> with cone inks haven't clogged at all in months.


Good point. This has been true for me too, here in New Jersey, and I'm in a
hot attic, which I'm too cheap to keep air conditioned at all times. Plus it
gets pretty humid at times.

Those of you who have used both Piezo and MIS inks, do you find the MIS to
be equally clog free?

Todd

Martin,

I recently experienced some micro-banding... it was pernicious in the prints
I was doing, but nozzle checks came up ok. Until I REALLY looked closely at
a nozzle check done on a nice smooth coated paper (EAM) that showed under
close examination that one light-grey nozzle position was in the correct
position vertically, but it was about half as thick as the other lines.

A windex-like treatment (Windolene in my case) resolved it overnight...
though initial results the next morning showed drop-outs on other cart
positions, a couple of cleaning cycles and then a  couple of hours wait
sorted them out. Since then, all that has been required is a cleaniny-cycle
to get it perfect again.

Nij

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
> Sent: 22 August 2001 17:28
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Goodbye Cone Driver Forever!
>
>
> Tony,
>
> Thanks for the info on the banding. That is one of the things that
> made me want to try the MIS VM. After endless cleaning cycles,
> physical head cleaning and head alignments my 1200 always has this
> microscopic banding pattern in any area of smooth mid tones.
>
> I don't see this is some peoples Piezo prints and do in others. I
> suspect if you have a perfect printer you are okay with Piezo in this
> regard but if your printer is less then perfect you will have
> problems. The Epson driver, which I assume was written to take into
> account the accuracy of the printer's transport mechanism, never
> seems to give this type of problem.
>
> I also do not see any dot pattern in the MIS VM prints I have seen.
>
> I wish I could say the same about clogging and my 1200!
>
> Martin

Nij,

What I am referring to here is not "micro banding" which is visible 
at normal viewing distances but rather "microscopic banding" that 
requires a loupe to see. This is I believe is the basic dither 
pattern of the Piezo driver, which if all is well is invisible.

If you are now saying why worry about it you are right. I have been 
told in no uncertain terms to put the magnifier away if everything 
looks all right. But I think that even though I cannot discriminate 
the "microscopic" bands they can give an very slight overall sense of 
grittiness to the image that I don't see with prints made from the 
Epson driver.

I just did a head cleaning routine by following a suggestion from 
Tim. You cut up some of the 1/8" sponge cloth you can find in the 
dishwashing section of the grocers. Dampen it with a cleaner, I used 
IPA, and lay the sponge in the groove under the heads. Then manually 
push the head back and forth to clean it off. This helped a great 
deal but did not eliminate the "microscopic banding." I just don't 
have one of the better printers.

I am being overly, obsessively particular. A character flaw I am not 
likely to correct at this point!

Martin Wesley


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Nij" <nigel@n...> wrote:
> Martin,
> 
> I recently experienced some micro-banding... it was pernicious in 
the prints
> I was doing, but nozzle checks came up ok. Until I REALLY looked 
closely at
> a nozzle check done on a nice smooth coated paper (EAM) that showed 
under
> close examination that one light-grey nozzle position was in the 
correct
> position vertically, but it was about half as thick as the other 
lines.
> 
> A windex-like treatment (Windolene in my case) resolved it 
overnight...
> though initial results the next morning showed drop-outs on other 
cart
> positions, a couple of cleaning cycles and then a  couple of hours 
wait
> sorted them out. Since then, all that has been required is a 
cleaniny-cycle
> to get it perfect again.
> 
> Nij
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@e...]
> > Sent: 22 August 2001 17:28
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Goodbye Cone Driver Forever!
> >
> >
> > Tony,
> >
> > Thanks for the info on the banding. That is one of the things that
> > made me want to try the MIS VM. After endless cleaning cycles,
> > physical head cleaning and head alignments my 1200 always has this
> > microscopic banding pattern in any area of smooth mid tones.
> >
> > I don't see this is some peoples Piezo prints and do in others. I
> > suspect if you have a perfect printer you are okay with Piezo in 
this
> > regard but if your printer is less then perfect you will have
> > problems. The Epson driver, which I assume was written to take 
into
> > account the accuracy of the printer's transport mechanism, never
> > seems to give this type of problem.
> >
> > I also do not see any dot pattern in the MIS VM prints I have 
seen.

> >
> > I wish I could say the same about clogging and my 1200!
> >
> > Martin

On the first point - maybe we have a problem of definition (like I can see
banding from 12 / 18" that other people just can't see - perhaps because
they are not photographers, or perfectionists??) So either my close-up
eye-sight is REALLY good, or, well, it's just non-perfectionists who refuse
to see the bands!

So your post prompted me to take a look at some of my prints that I recently
did for print samples... I had some rejects from the early few as the
printer was settling post that cleaning I mentioned. I too had also cleaned
the underside of the print-head with a 'sponge on a stick' from an AF
printer-cleaning kit (someone else, Todd I think mentions the use of similar
tools from Tandy), and I think this is what causes the drop out of ink, as
the friction will pull ink out of the heads (or something).

Anyway... just took a look at my prints and I would classify the rejects I
picked up first as being micro-banding and sub-micro banding - first one you
could see from 12" no trouble, the next, you got a 'hint' of it but if you
get any closer you can't see the detail any more.  Looking through a loupe,
I saw banding in the first case, and again, a 'hint of banding' on the
latter. The loupe made things harder in a way, as using Somerset Enh Velvet
it's quite a fibrous paper so you actually see more detail in the paper
surface at that magnification than you can in the banding. i.e. You havbe a
vague sense of 'streakiness' but it's actually very difficult to put your
finger on.

If it came down to it, I would probably be prepared to send out the
'sub-micro banded' prints as samples.

One of my 'selected' prints by the way, showed no banding, and I swear to
you that even under a loupe, I wouldn't be able to tell which way the
print-head had been moving - perhaps because dot-gain on this paper seems to
be, well, more than some other papers.

And if anyone's wondering, I printed about 120 A4 sheets in two days - I
wasn't rushing, at all... I believe I could have done more than double that
if I'd been a little more concentrated. 99% of them were perfect once it got
going. (getting going being the 10 or so sheets the day before)

Don't stop being a perfectionist!

Nij




> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
<snip>
> What I am referring to here is not "micro banding" which is visible
> at normal viewing distances but rather "microscopic banding" that
> requires a loupe to see. This is I believe is the basic dither
> pattern of the Piezo driver, which if all is well is invisible.
<snip>
> I am being overly, obsessively particular. A character flaw I am not
> likely to correct at this point!

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Nij" <nigel@n...> wrote:
> On the first point - maybe we have a problem of definition (like I 
can see
> banding from 12 / 18" that other people just can't see - perhaps 
because
> they are not photographers, or perfectionists??) So either my close-
up
> eye-sight is REALLY good, or, well, it's just non-perfectionists 
who refuse
> to see the bands!

Okay let's agree that "micro banding" is something you can see in the 
12 to 18" view range and that "sub micro banding" can only be seen 
with some sort of magnification.

> 
> So your post prompted me to take a look at some of my prints that I 
recently
> did for print samples... I had some rejects from the early few as 
the
> printer was settling post that cleaning I mentioned. I too had also 
cleaned
> the underside of the print-head with a 'sponge on a stick' from an 
AF
> printer-cleaning kit (someone else, Todd I think mentions the use 
of similar
> tools from Tandy), and I think this is what causes the drop out of 
ink, as
> the friction will pull ink out of the heads (or something).
> 
> Anyway... just took a look at my prints and I would classify the 
rejects I
> picked up first as being micro-banding and sub-micro banding - 
first one you
> could see from 12" no trouble, the next, you got a 'hint' of it but 
if you
> get any closer you can't see the detail any more.  Looking through 
a loupe,
> I saw banding in the first case, and again, a 'hint of banding' on 
the
> latter. The loupe made things harder in a way, as using Somerset 
Enh Velvet
> it's quite a fibrous paper so you actually see more detail in the 
paper
> surface at that magnification than you can in the banding. i.e. You 
havbe a
> vague sense of 'streakiness' but it's actually very difficult to 
put your
> finger on.
> 
> If it came down to it, I would probably be prepared to send out the
> 'sub-micro banded' prints as samples.
> 
> One of my 'selected' prints by the way, showed no banding, and I 
swear to
> you that even under a loupe, I wouldn't be able to tell which way 
the
> print-head had been moving - perhaps because dot-gain on this paper 
seems to
> be, well, more than some other papers.

From the prints I received in the first print exchange group of 10 
none of the Piezo prints had micro banding. Most had no sub-micro 
banding. One was absolutely perfect without a dot or line or anything 
in perfectly smooth tones. Mine and a couple of others had sub-micro 
banding in some areas of the print.

At any viewing distance all of the prints look wonderful. Only an 
idiot who would pull out a magnifying glass to look at perfectly fine 
prints would see a difference.

I forgot to add that the sub-micro banding usually only shows up in 
areas of smooth middle tones. If there is any texture to the image, 
even significant grain, the sub-micro banding is broken up and cannot 
be seen. Also paper texture breaks it up as well. Turner and German 
Etching are excellent in this regard.

> 
> And if anyone's wondering, I printed about 120 A4 sheets in two 
days - I
> wasn't rushing, at all... I believe I could have done more than 
double that
> if I'd been a little more concentrated. 99% of them were perfect 
once it got
> going. (getting going being the 10 or so sheets the day before)
> 
> Don't stop being a perfectionist!

I don't think it is an option but there definate are non-productive 
limits.

Martin
> 
(snip)