Digital BW, The Print

----- Original Message -----
From: "dilcher" <dilcher@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 8:10 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Piezo vs MIS question


> I am thinking of jumping into inkjet printing, and am having trouble
> deciding between Piezo and MIS methods.  I understand that
> Piezography is supposed to have a driver which makes a substantial
> difference in printing.  Is this so?  I saw this link:
> http://www.piezography.com/piezographyBW-comp-mis.html
> but, don't know if it is a fair comparison.

Dilcher,

I feel the comparison is pretty bogus. I was probably done long ago on a
poorly set up 3000 and bears no resemblance to the output of current
printers with the Epson driver.
>
> Can anyone give me advice?  I have set aside about $1400 for an
> inkjet printing system, and want to make sure I get the most bang for
> my buck!

I would recommend an Epson 1280, Piezo software (Buy any of the $335
software and cartridge packages and toss the cartridges. The software will
cover all the supported printers.) and a set of MIS Full Spectrum inks.
Regular FS if you like warm prints and Neutral FS is you like a cool-neutral
tone. Also a CIS from Media Street, Conetech or perhaps WeInk. All this
should be well within your budget and will get you printing with grayscale
inks very smoothly.

The other alternative is to save on the Piezo software and go with the
MIS-VM inks and the separation curves with the Epson driver.

Martin Wesley
>
>
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dilcher [mailto:dilcher@...] wrote:

>... having trouble  deciding between Piezo and MIS methods.
>...Piezography is supposed to have a driver which makes a substantial
>difference in printing.  Is this so?

You will get a variety of opinions on this, I'm sure.  Mine is that the
Piezo driver does, in fact, make smoother prints on older quad printers, but
not on newer hextone printers.  Nonetheless, while I have the Piezo driver
and the older quad printers, I still prefer the Epson driver.  The
differences in smoothness are not enough to be relevant to my decision.

I think the pros and cons of the two approaches aside from the smoothness of
highlights are more important in making a decision as to which way to go.
Along those lines, I think tone control is the big MIS VM (variable-tone)
advantage, and paper profiles are the big Piezo advantage.  Additionally,
some think Piezo is easier to use, while some say that the Epson driver
delivers blacker blacks.

With my system, one of the most irritating aspects of the Piezo driver is
that I can't do other work while it is printing.  With the Epson driver I
can. Not all systems have this problem, apparently.

As a person who writes Photoshop curves to control inksets with the Epson
driver, the quality that a true RIP can achieve impresses me.  While I can
usually achieve similar quality, to be honest, a number of the curves that
are out there are draft curves that could use more work.  It's doubtful that
I'll ever have the time to get them all up to what a professional RIP can
do.

I have encouraged the RIP makers, including Cone, to support an open
variable-tone ink approach.  The combination of a professional RIP and MIS
inks may give the best of both worlds.  But, of course, one has to pay for
the RIP.

> I saw this link:
>http://www.piezography.com/piezographyBW-comp-mis.html
>but, don't know if it is a fair comparison.

I think this comparison exaggerates the differences between the systems.
First, it uses the old 3000, which is not representative of any of the other
printers that most on this list use.  The 3000 has relatively huge dots.

Additionally, while the comparison is conspicuously silent on what workflow
they used, I'd guess they used the Woolf, non-partitioned workflow for the
MIS image.  This allows the darkest gray inks to get into the highlights.
The better workflows "partition" the ink so that only the lightest gray ink
is in the highlights.  Piezo does this, and so can the Epson driver with
appropriate RGB Photoshop image adjustment curves -- which is what I and
most using the MIS inks use.

I use a 3000 with the Epson driver.  I recently attended a conference in the
Bay Area where I had both an Epson driver output and a Piezo output at its
highest resolution.  The prints could barely be distinguished.  Perhaps
others who were at that conference and saw the comparison can comment.

My conclusion is that with 16x20 prints from medium format Tmax 100
negatives, the differences in the dots are essentially irrelevant.  If I
were making small prints from the 3000, I might have a different opinion.
However, unless a person wants 16x20 prints, there is no reason to buy a
3000 instead of a more modern printer with smaller dots.

I think the smoothest prints I've ever seen or measured are the 1280 Epson
driver prints at 2880 resolution.

My system of choice includes two printers -- the 3000 for large prints and
an 1160 for smaller prints.  If I were purchasing now, I might even go with
the letter-size version of the 1160 if it were available.  Note, however,
that my choices are based in part on my need for quad machines that are
easier to mix and load inks into.  If you are not into ink mixing and don't
need 16x20 size, the 1280 is the best there is.

While I almost always print with the Epson driver, I also am comfortable
with tweaking the image adjustment curves to get whatever performance I want
out of the variable-tone system.  That said, I also am glad I have the Piezo
software.  Its profiles can be handy when checking out other papers.  (But
the system did not have a profile for Epson Archival Matte -- the most
popular paper for pigments -- for a very long time.)  I also use the Piezo
output as a standard for judging the quality of the curves that control the
MIS VM system.

The bottom line is both approaches have their advantages and
disadvantages -- neither is perfect.  Be sure to get a printer that is
supported by both systems.  That way you can switch as needed.

Good luck.  Either system should produce great prints for you.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Paul - Thanks for all the help and information you provide in this
forum!  My question concerns the standard MIS FS inkset.  I'm using
these inks in an Epson 1160 w/cis system with nice results both using
the Piezo software, and the Epson driver with curve adjustment.  If I
wanted a slightly "cooler" tone to my prints, could I add some blue or
cyan dye ink to one of the bottles?  Thanks for any guidance you can
provide --- John.

> I would recommend an Epson 1280, Piezo software (Buy any of the $335
> software and cartridge packages and toss the cartridges. The 
software will
> cover all the supported printers.) and a set of MIS Full Spectrum 
inks.
> Regular FS if you like warm prints and Neutral FS is you like a 
cool-neutral
> tone.

Martin,

on WWW.inksupply.com site no reference is made to a "Neutral" MIS 
Full Spectrum. How can you order such set? Are the tone really cooler 
than the one obtained from Piezo (with piezo inks set)? 

Can you use all the paper profiles provided with the Piezo software 
together with a "Neutral" MIS FS set?

Is it possible to use the Piezo software with the MIS VM?

John Y Riggs

(Displaying my ignarance I am asking)

Can the MIS VM inks be used with ImagePrint?  How does it work?

Mike?

Anyone?

Thanks,

Bill

John,

>on WWW.inksupply.com site no reference is made to a "Neutral" MIS
>Full Spectrum. How can you order such set?

Call MIS at 800-445-8296 to order the inks that are not on the website.
This includes the FS-neutral and the VM-sepia.

> Are the tones really cooler
>than the one obtained from Piezo (with piezo inks set)?

Definitely. If you like neutral silver prints, FS-N is a good choice.

>Can you use all the paper profiles provided with the Piezo software
>together with a "Neutral" MIS FS set?

I have not heard of any problems.  I also haven't tried them all with the
two inksets, and there is at least a theoretical chance that the profiles
could be off a bit due to absorption differences between inksets.  However,
all of these inksets are pigment-based with, apparently, the same viscosity
and general printing characteristics.  So, I expect all the profiles work
close to the same with these inksets.

>Is it possible to use the Piezo software with the MIS VM?

Well, I don't think so.  I understand some do, but the toner is in the
yellow spot with quads, thus your toner would be used very heavily in the
highlights, but not much in the shadows.  For example, I just printed a
VM-sepia test strip with the Piezo driver and a 3000.  the highlights are
very sepia, then the color fades away in the midtones, and the deep shadows
look rather cool in comparison.  I don't think it is a pleasing tonal
distribution.  Also, the midtone separation looks poor.

In hextone machines the densities of the inks are quite different than Piezo
due to the fact that the VM system is a true hextone, whereas the Piezo
system only uses 4 densities.  So, I don't know what the tonal and density
distribution would look like -- Bad would be my guess.

So, I don't recommend using the Piezo driver with VM inks.  The FS-N and
VM-sepia do share a common cyan and gray ink base, and all the FS and VM
inksets use the same black.  However, the inksets are quite different and
should be used with workflows that are specifically designed for them.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Mike told me, that the Colorbyte people are working to support 
MIS VM inks in the future.
Up to now the system supports Cone inks, MIS FS, MIS FS 
Neutral and Lyson inks as far as he told me.
Bernd




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Bill Morse 
<willym@b...> wrote:
> (Displaying my ignarance I am asking)
> 
> Can the MIS VM inks be used with ImagePrint?  How does it 
work?

> 
> Mike?
> 
> Anyone?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bill

Martin:

I'm getting ready to make the plunge into "carbon pigment printing." Do 
you still recommend snagging the Piezo software for the 1280 by picking 
it up in a cheaper versions with carts, say for the 1160. Is there any 
reason to think that the software would be "printer specific" in these 
kits? I'd hate to find out that it wouldn't work in my 1280.

What are the down sides to using the MIS FS inks instead of the rather 
expensive Cone inks?

Also, is there anyone in my local group (Bay Area) who uses a 1280 and 
Macintosh with Piezography driver. I'd like to dialog with you, 
especially if your experience has included printing classic B&W 
landscapes on silver papers.

Thanks,
Marty Knapp
http://www.martyknapp.com

http://www.martyknapp.com
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" <
mwesley250@e...> wrote:

> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dilcher" <dilcher@y...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 8:10 AM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Piezo vs MIS question
> 
> 
> > I am thinking of jumping into inkjet printing, and am having trouble
> > deciding between Piezo and MIS methods.  I understand that
> > Piezography is supposed to have a driver which makes a substantial
> > difference in printing.  Is this so?  I saw this link:
> > http://www.piezography.com/piezographyBW-comp-mis.html
> > but, don't know if it is a fair comparison.
> 
> Dilcher,
> 
> I feel the comparison is pretty bogus. I was probably done long ago on a
> poorly set up 3000 and bears no resemblance to the output of current
> printers with the Epson driver.
> >
> > Can anyone give me advice?  I have set aside about $1400 for an
> > inkjet printing system, and want to make sure I get the most bang for
> > my buck!
> 
> I would recommend an Epson 1280, Piezo software (Buy any of the $335
> software and cartridge packages and toss the cartridges. The software will
> cover all the supported printers.) and a set of MIS Full Spectrum inks.
> Regular FS if you like warm prints and Neutral FS is you like a cool-neutral
> tone. Also a CIS from Media Street, Conetech or perhaps WeInk. All this
> should be well within your budget and will get you printing with grayscale
> inks very smoothly.

----- Original Message -----

From: "martino3847" <marty@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Piezo vs MIS question


> Martin:
>
> I'm getting ready to make the plunge into "carbon pigment printing." Do
> you still recommend snagging the Piezo software for the 1280 by picking
> it up in a cheaper versions with carts, say for the 1160. Is there any
> reason to think that the software would be "printer specific" in these
> kits? I'd hate to find out that it wouldn't work in my 1280.

Marty,

You have it right. The same software comes with all of the "kits". So if you
do not want to buy the Piezo ink then just buy the cheapest kit and toss the
cartridges that come with it.

>
> What are the down sides to using the MIS FS inks instead of the rather
> expensive Cone inks?

I don't think there are any down sides unless you prefer the color of the
Piezo inks over the MIS-Full Spectrum inks. The indications are that the MIS
Full Spectrum inks suffer less from clogging than the Piezo inks.
>
> Also, is there anyone in my local group (Bay Area) who uses a 1280 and
> Macintosh with Piezography driver. I'd like to dialog with you,
> especially if your experience has included printing classic B&W
> landscapes on silver papers.

Well I can help you except for the Mac part but Photoshop and Piezo seem to
be pretty platform independent.

Martin

(snip)

The piezo software is essential IMO - and there are NO downsides to the MIS
FS inks. Don't buy in to the 'expensive is best' myth. There are a whole
load of reasons for the cost of piezo inks, most of them to do with supply.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "martino3847" <marty@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 1:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Piezo vs MIS question


> Martin:
>
> I'm getting ready to make the plunge into "carbon pigment printing." Do
> you still recommend snagging the Piezo software for the 1280 by picking
> it up in a cheaper versions with carts, say for the 1160. Is there any
> reason to think that the software would be "printer specific" in these
> kits? I'd hate to find out that it wouldn't work in my 1280.
>
> What are the down sides to using the MIS FS inks instead of the rather
> expensive Cone inks?
>
> Also, is there anyone in my local group (Bay Area) who uses a 1280 and
> Macintosh with Piezography driver. I'd like to dialog with you,
> especially if your experience has included printing classic B&W
> landscapes on silver papers.
>
> Thanks,
> Marty Knapp
> http://www.martyknapp.com
>
> http://www.martyknapp.com
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" <
> mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "dilcher" <dilcher@y...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 8:10 AM
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Piezo vs MIS question
> >
> >
> > > I am thinking of jumping into inkjet printing, and am having trouble
> > > deciding between Piezo and MIS methods.  I understand that
> > > Piezography is supposed to have a driver which makes a substantial
> > > difference in printing.  Is this so?  I saw this link:
> > > http://www.piezography.com/piezographyBW-comp-mis.html
> > > but, don't know if it is a fair comparison.
> >
> > Dilcher,
> >
> > I feel the comparison is pretty bogus. I was probably done long ago on a
> > poorly set up 3000 and bears no resemblance to the output of current
> > printers with the Epson driver.
> > >
> > > Can anyone give me advice?  I have set aside about $1400 for an
> > > inkjet printing system, and want to make sure I get the most bang for
> > > my buck!
> >
> > I would recommend an Epson 1280, Piezo software (Buy any of the $335
> > software and cartridge packages and toss the cartridges. The software
will
> > cover all the supported printers.) and a set of MIS Full Spectrum inks.
> > Regular FS if you like warm prints and Neutral FS is you like a
cool-neutral
> > tone. Also a CIS from Media Street, Conetech or perhaps WeInk. All this
> > should be well within your budget and will get you printing with
grayscale
> > inks very smoothly.
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>