Yahoo Groups archive

Digital BW, The Print

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 22:56 UTC

Thread

16 X 8 bits editing

16 X 8 bits editing

2002-03-21 by André Vallejo

I was always interested in this subject. Done some tests,and never really
saw a difference. Then I recently read a post from Dan Margulis in another
group I participate,who says it really makes very little difference,if any.
He certainly knows more about it then anyone of us,so I just gave up caring
about it... It's more a theoretical issue than a practical one.
[ ],Andr\ufffd




Message: 1
   Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 22:31:44 -0500
Show quoted textHide quoted text
   From: "Michael Kravit" <michael.kravit@...>
Subject: Banding and Over working the image

Recently I was asked to print a limited edition portfolio for a local
photographer.  I was given 18 images saved to CD and supposedly ready for
printing. No muss no fuss.  As I began to print these equisite images, I
began to notice that the prints had very subtle banding in the midtones and
less dense shadow areas. A quick check of the histogram revealed the
infamous "Fingers of Death". A quick nozzle check revealed that I had no
clogs and the patterns were fine. Since I switched to MIS FS inks, I have
rarely had any clogging of my Epson 7k.

I asked the photographer if he worked his images in 16 bit mode. He replied
"sure I always convert to 16 bit after all the work is done and I am ready
to save the file". Jeez, another favor gone bad. Without going into detail I
took the negatives and re-scanned them on my drum. I made selections on 8
bit file copies and inserted them into the 16 bit file. I made all curves
and level adjustments in 16 bit mode and never once converted to 8 bit until
the image was finished and I was ready to print.

The final images are free of all artifacts and any banding whatsoever.

The key here is to develop techniques to allow for all manipulations to be
done in 16 bit mode. Working in 8 bit mode results is too much data being
thrown away.  Especially those new to B/W digital printing and working with
Photoshop, learn good working habits and techniques. Your results will speak
for themselves.

Mike

RE: [Digital BW] 16 X 8 bits editing

2002-03-21 by Austin Franklin

> I was always interested in this subject. Done some tests,and never really
> saw a difference.

Hi Andre,

That depends on what you are doing.  The things that matter in 16 bit mode
are things that change the tonal curves.  If you are performing operations
that don't do anything to the tonal curve, then high bit mode won't help.
It also depends on how large your tonal moves are, and what the image is.
Some images are very sensitive to it, and some aren't.

> Then I recently read a post from Dan Margulis in another
> group I participate,who says it really makes very little
> difference,if any.

Dan is specifically talking about color, for which he is right.  That is
easily explainable too.  Color is 3 x 8 or 24 bits/pixel, where B&W is 8
bits/pixel.  His comment is absolutely NOT true for B&W.

> He certainly knows more about it then anyone of us,

Well, no, not necessarily.  He writes more about it, that's for sure.

> It's more a theoretical issue than a practical one.

Well, for B&W, it is a real issue.  It really depends on your images, and
your ability to critique output too.  Some people don't notice subtle tonal
posterizing, while some do.  It is a learned perception, BTW.

Regards,

Austin

Re: [Digital BW] 16 X 8 bits editing

2002-03-21 by Editor P.O.V. Image Service

Austin Franklin wrote:

> > Then I recently read a post from Dan Margulis in another
> > group I participate,who says it really makes very little
> > difference,if any.
>
> Dan is specifically talking about color, for which he is right.  That is
> easily explainable too.  Color is 3 x 8 or 24 bits/pixel, where B&W is 8
> bits/pixel.  His comment is absolutely NOT true for B&W.
>
>
Not only that, but even in COLOR if you need to correct an imperfectly  
scanned original or a scan from an original where the tonal values are 
extended, 16 bits is the way to go UNTIL you have done the work on the 
curves/histogram.

The reason is simply that you may end up with images with multiple 
values squeezed to overlap in a 8 bit image, while in a 16 bit they 
could be mapped to differing values.  Once you correct the spread of the 
histogram/curves in 16 bit, you can now more easily map them to 
differing values in 8 bit..  That helps prevent banding..

[Keith]
 
 

****************************************************************
CONFIDENTIALITY & COPYRIGHT NOTICE:
This e-mail message, including attachments and contents, is © Copyright, 
Keith Krebs, 2001, All Rights Reserved. It is expressly for the sole use 
of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged 
information. Absent the express written authorization of the author, any 
unauthorized review, use, disclosure, transfer, or distribution is 
explicitly prohibited and taken at your own risk. If you are not, or are 
unsure whether you are, the intended recipient, please contact the 
sender immediately and destroy all copies of the original message. 
Violations will be prosecuted to the FULL extent allowed under 
applicable civil and criminal law. Imagery published or distributed in 
violation of these conditions shall be subject to a $1500/image 
liquidated damages charge, in addition to any applicable Copyright 
violation penalties.

[POV IMage Service Banner]
****************************************************************
{ The P.O.V. Image Service Website is still at http://www.p-o-v-image.com/ }




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] 16 X 8 bits editing

2002-03-21 by Todd Flashner

I have a humble contribution I'd like to make to this thread. I wrote it
some months ago, and since have expanded it it, at least conceptually, and
rewritten it, at least on paper (I promise it will be broader but more
concise), but my daily sloth has prevented me from putting it all together
on the site. However, it's been hiding out in a closet so I might as well
crack the door a bit and give it some air. Expect an update at sometime in
the future, but for now this will have to do. It's by no means meant to be
exhaustive or conclusive, and I expect it should raise more questions than
it answers, but it's meant to encourage testing and the sharing of results:

<http://www.ourwebmaster.com/piezography3000/20020106ToddFlashner1.htm>

Jim Coffee at http://www.ourwebmaster.com was kind enough to assemble and
host this for me. BTW, at the time Jim seemed into hosting these kinds of
articles (as did some others on this list - thanks Tim, and Mike) so if
anyone else wants to share their results, on this or other topics, it might
be a good place to do it.

Todd Flashner

Re: [Digital BW] 16 X 8 bits editing

2002-03-21 by flyfishingusa2002

Todd, I had a look at your excellent page on "Combing" and I have 
noticed one flaw in your suggestions. If you check the histograms 
for the two resulting pictures you will see that they neither show 
any sign of "Combing" I think that you removed it when you converted 
to jpg for the web. How about a segment of the image before the 
final step so we might see the actual comparison? Maybe you could 
post them to the Files section of the forum.

Barry

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner 
<tflash@e...> wrote:
> I have a humble contribution I'd like to make to this thread. I 
wrote it
> some months ago, and since have expanded it it, at least 
conceptually, and
> rewritten it, at least on paper (I promise it will be broader but 
more
> concise), but my daily sloth has prevented me from putting it all 
together
> on the site. However, it's been hiding out in a closet so I might 
as well
> crack the door a bit and give it some air. Expect an update at 
sometime in
> the future, but for now this will have to do. It's by no means 
meant to be
> exhaustive or conclusive, and I expect it should raise more 
questions than
> it answers, but it's meant to encourage testing and the sharing of 
results:
> 
> 
<http://www.ourwebmaster.com/piezography3000/20020106ToddFlashner1.ht
m>
> 
> Jim Coffee at http://www.ourwebmaster.com was kind enough to 
assemble and
> host this for me. BTW, at the time Jim seemed into hosting these 
kinds of
> articles (as did some others on this list - thanks Tim, and Mike) 
so if
> anyone else wants to share their results, on this or other topics, 
it might
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> be a good place to do it.
> 
> Todd Flashner

Re: [Digital BW] 16 X 8 bits editing

2002-03-21 by Todd Flashner

Barry

You're right, the histograms get smoothed out by the jpeging (that's why I
include the screen grab). If you want to get down to that level with these
images I will try to do as you ask (probably tomorrow). What small part of
the image do you feel would be the best to show? Should I give the whole
detail I show in the article; both 8 and 16 bit versions? I don't want to
waste any more of our server space with this than we need to.

Todd
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Todd, I had a look at your excellent page on "Combing" and I have
> noticed one flaw in your suggestions. If you check the histograms
> for the two resulting pictures you will see that they neither show
> any sign of "Combing" I think that you removed it when you converted
> to jpg for the web. How about a segment of the image before the
> final step so we might see the actual comparison? Maybe you could
> post them to the Files section of the forum.
> 
> Barry
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner
> <tflash@e...> wrote:
>> I have a humble contribution I'd like to make to this thread. I
> wrote it
>> some months ago, and since have expanded it it, at least
> conceptually, and
>> rewritten it, at least on paper (I promise it will be broader but
> more
>> concise), but my daily sloth has prevented me from putting it all
> together
>> on the site. However, it's been hiding out in a closet so I might
> as well
>> crack the door a bit and give it some air. Expect an update at
> sometime in
>> the future, but for now this will have to do. It's by no means
> meant to be
>> exhaustive or conclusive, and I expect it should raise more
> questions than
>> it answers, but it's meant to encourage testing and the sharing of
> results:
>> 
>> 
> <http://www.ourwebmaster.com/piezography3000/20020106ToddFlashner1.ht
> m>
>> 
>> Jim Coffee at http://www.ourwebmaster.com was kind enough to
> assemble and
>> host this for me. BTW, at the time Jim seemed into hosting these
> kinds of
>> articles (as did some others on this list - thanks Tim, and Mike)
> so if
>> anyone else wants to share their results, on this or other topics,
> it might
>> be a good place to do it.
>> 
>> Todd Flashner
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] 16 X 8 bits editing

2002-03-21 by Bill Morse

Todd, this is useful stuff, but I would like to see the histograms of the
two image crops- how much actual difference is there in these two crops?

Having said that, I think I can see differences, but...  Having said that, I
don't think that jpegged crops are the final answer either.  Unfortunately,
only full size prints will reliably show the differences or not.  (How about
a print exchange?)

Wow, I'm on a roll, that's a great idea!

Bill Morse
PhotoProspect
Cambridge, MA 02139

on 3/21/02 2:09 PM, flyfishingusa2002 wrote:

Todd, I had a look at your excellent page on "Combing" and I have
noticed one flaw in your suggestions. If you check the histograms
for the two resulting pictures you will see that they neither show
any sign of "Combing" I think that you removed it when you converted
to jpg for the web. How about a segment of the image before the
final step so we might see the actual comparison? Maybe you could
post them to the Files section of the forum.

Barry

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner
<tflash@e...> wrote:
> I have a humble contribution I'd like to make to this thread. I
wrote it
> some months ago, and since have expanded it it, at least
conceptually, and
> rewritten it, at least on paper (I promise it will be broader but
more
> concise), but my daily sloth has prevented me from putting it all
together
> on the site. However, it's been hiding out in a closet so I might
as well
> crack the door a bit and give it some air. Expect an update at
sometime in
> the future, but for now this will have to do. It's by no means
meant to be
> exhaustive or conclusive, and I expect it should raise more
questions than
> it answers, but it's meant to encourage testing and the sharing of
results:
> 
> 
<http://www.ourwebmaster.com/piezography3000/20020106ToddFlashner1.ht
m>
> 
> Jim Coffee at http://www.ourwebmaster.com was kind enough to
assemble and
> host this for me. BTW, at the time Jim seemed into hosting these
kinds of
> articles (as did some others on this list - thanks Tim, and Mike)
so if
> anyone else wants to share their results, on this or other topics,
it might
> be a good place to do it.
> 
> Todd Flashner


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT

Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- Include your full name with your message.
- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
- Complete your Yahoo profile.
- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: 16 X 8 bits editing

2002-03-21 by antonisphoto

Todd,

nicely done and nice of you to take the time to post it with examples etc. 

Here is the catch, as I see it, though: You won't see the benefits of the 16 bits 
until.... they become obvious!  What I mean is that unless there are areas that 
visibly posterize in an 8bit image as a result of whatever tonal moves are 
done to it, there will be no visible benefit to the 16bit workflow. 

For example, if you chose a smooth, grainless sky whose final gray values go 
from 8% to 12% over a large stretch of a big print, you are likely to see 
posterization if you manipulated in 8bits unless the original scan needed no 
adjustment. Grain, or other texture (such as skin in your example) would mask 
this posterization. In that case you have to resort to 16 bits to avoid as much of 
it as possible, and you may still have to add some noise at the end if all else 
fails.

So, how about an addition to your treatise: While your conclusions so far are 
valid for the subject and size you have chosen, you may add another example 
where a narrow part of a gray ramp is given the 8 vs 16 bit test and show how 
both histos and visual results compare?


Antonis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> wrote:
 It's by no means meant to be
> exhaustive or conclusive, and I expect it should raise more questions than
> it answers, but it's meant to encourage testing and the sharing of results:
> 
> 
<http://www.ourwebmaster.com/piezography3000/20020106ToddFlashner1.h
tm>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: 16 X 8 bits editing

2002-03-21 by Todd Flashner

on 3/21/02 2:28 PM, antonisphoto wrote:

> Todd,
> 
> nicely done and nice of you to take the time to post it with examples etc.

Thanks.
 
> Here is the catch, as I see it, though: You won't see the benefits of the 16
> bits until.... they become obvious!  What I mean is that unless there are
> areas that visibly posterize in an 8bit image as a result of whatever tonal
> moves are done to it, there will be no visible benefit to the 16bit workflow.

Yup.

> For example, if you chose a smooth, grainless sky whose final gray values go
> from 8% to 12% over a large stretch of a big print, you are likely to see
> posterization if you manipulated in 8bits unless the original scan needed no
> adjustment. Grain, or other texture (such as skin in your example) would mask
> this posterization. In that case you have to resort to 16 bits to avoid as
> much of it as possible, and you may still have to add some noise at the end if
> all else fails.

Yup.
 
> So, how about an addition to your treatise: While your conclusions so far are
> valid for the subject and size you have chosen, you may add another example
> where a narrow part of a gray ramp is given the 8 vs 16 bit test and show how
> both histos and visual results compare?

Nope. ;-)

I have no doubt certain images can be broken, and when I expand the article
I'll touch on that, but I can never be exhaustive of all scenarios. I'm not
the only one with the capability to make such tests, so I'm far more
interested in seeing others results than trying to prove anything, other
than that some images can take a lot of abuse, even if others can't. It's
only through testing many different type of images that we can get a feel
for which will be troublesome and which won't, and how far any of them can
be taken.

Todd
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> wrote:
> It's by no means meant to be exhaustive or conclusive, and I expect it should
> raise more questions than it answers, but it's meant to encourage testing and
> the sharing of results:
> 
>> 
> <http://www.ourwebmaster.com/piezography3000/20020106ToddFlashner1.h tm>

Re: [Digital BW] 16 X 8 bits editing

2002-03-21 by tomoc

> He certainly knows more about it then anyone of us,

Well, no, not necessarily. He writes more about it, that's for sure.
-------------------

Austin-

I simply LOVE reading your posts...you're the touchstone to keep us 
all honest.

Cheers,

Tom O'Connell

TomOC@...
www.thomasoconnell.com

Re: [Digital BW] Image Resolution vs. Print Output Resolution

2002-03-21 by editor@p-o-v-image.com

What follows is as it has been explained to me by an Imaging system 
scientist/design engineer. He also happens to be a skilled printer and 
photographer, who does his prints on EPSONs. He also is a regular contributor 
to my (shamelss plug)  1700+ member user list of EPSON photo printer 
afficionados.  ;-)

To cut to the bottomline for those who inveterately turn to the last page 
first.. For current EPSON printers, the max usable and demonstrably better 
image resolution (when sent to the driver) is 720 dpi (assuming the image is 
not being resized by the driver). I'll leave it to my friend to explain why...

Keith

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Well I don't know any image theory that suggests that you should only 
send 1/2 or 1/3 of the printer resolution - unless you are working with 
a basic halftoning algorithm, in which case the maximum resolution 
should be around the square root of the number of dots in each half tone 
cell - so a 3x3 cell would require 1/3rd of the resolution of the 
printer.

However most printers these days, and certainly all of the Epson range, 
use a stochastic dither process similar in principle to the operation of 
a delta-sigma ADC.  The printer places the dot of the closest tone and 
hue to the required pixel values and then the software calculates the 
error between what was placed and what should have been placed.  This 
error is added to the value of hue and tone for the pixel to be placed 
at the next dot position and the process is repeated - the printer 
places the closest dot type it can to the required pixel hue and tone 
and the error is again calculated.  (In practice, the error is 
distributed around the adjacent eight dots in the matrix, rather than 
carried along the line, as it is with digitising an analogue signal with 
a single bit delta-sigma ADC.)

Obviously the printer has a limited set of ink tones, determined by the 
number of droplet sizes and colours available, so it is unlikely that 
any individual drop will result in exactly the tone and hue of the 
intended pixel.  However the error between what is placed and what 
should be placed is distributed to neighbouring dots at the full dot 
resolution of the printer.  Significantly, the error is not reproduced 
spatially, but as a noise in the amplitude of the image.  Consequently 
there is no need for each pixel in the image to be represented by many 
dots in the printer - since the amplitude error in hue and tone can just 
as easily be accommodated by appropriately adjusting adjacent pixel 
values - whether the adjacent pixels have the same tone (such as if they 
were indeed the same pixel) or not.

What this means is that with such a stochastic dither process, the 
maximum spatial resolution which the printer can reproduce is EXACTLY 
the same as the dot pitch - although at that limiting resolution the 
signal to noise of the image will be very low.  In fact it can be as low 
as about 75% of the intensity of the dots, or an SNR of only 1.5dB.  So, 
for example, if only one dot size is available and only 4 colours are 
used then clearly the printer can only place a maximum intensity dot or 
not for each pixel.  The worst error occurs when the pixel is at exactly 
mid level and the printer must decide either to print a dot or not - in 
each case the error being approximately half of the available intensity 
range in the image.  Since the pixel intensity was at mid range and the 
error was equal then the SNR is unity, however the root mean square 
error over all pixel intensities is reduced by the square root of two, 
to 0.7, hence the 1.5dB SNR figure mentioned earlier.

Obviously a signal to noise of only 1.5dB is pretty poor but the error 
distribution means that the spatial integration due to limited resolving 
ability of your eye is perfect - just as oversampling DACs in CD players 
shift the noise up and out of the hearing band, so the dot placement 
algorithm used in modern inkjets also pushes the noise beyond the visual 
resolution limits at normal (and even close) viewing distances.  With a 
10" viewing distance, the human eye can only resolve around 250ppi on 
the page, so the output of a 2880x720dpi printer is averaged over around 
33 dots, increasing the SNR to a more respectable 16.5dB.  Given that 
the human eye can only resolve around 50-100 tones at a fixed 
illumination level, this is not much less than the capability of the eye 
itself.  Clearly at higher magnifications, or closer viewing, the 
shortfalls become obvious, hence the need for multiple drop sizes and 
colours to get near photographic quality output.

So a 2880x720dpi printer can certainly resolve an image of 
2880x720pixels per inch presented to it.  A more practical limit though, 
also exploiting the resolution limit of the eye, is imposed by most of 
the Epson range, which resamples the image to 720dpi in both axes - 
irrespective of the dot size and pitch.  This ensures that the image SNR 
never falls below a certain level (which they have deemed to be 
acceptable) under any conditions.  Consequently there is no point with 
any of the current Epson range in sending anything above 720ppi to the 
printer - it will be resampled, and this resampling may be the source of 
the urban legend that insists on 240ppi as being the limit.  There are 
some esoteric reasons why printing at an integer division of the 
resampling pitch might give more pleasing results - the harmonics of any 
spatial frequencies alias back on themselves - but in practice this 
doesn't make too much difference with real images where the spatial 
frequencies are only present over a limited extent, so aliased harmonics 
don't actually reproduce in the image at all.

Typically I try to print at anything up to 480ppi as a limit but have 
gone up to 600 or even 720ppi on occasions where the image can stand it 
- large areas of near uniform colour (or test images such as resolution 
charts where errors at high resolution are distributed spatially as 
noise).  I try to avoid printing below 200ppi since a keen viewer can 
start to discriminate individual pixels around that level.  The problem 
of printing at higher resolutions has more to do with the source of the 
image than the capabilities of the printer.  In scanned images, for 
example, film grain can be highly accentuated due to the errors at each 
dot placement, making the print look substantially grainier than an 
equivalent chemical print.

Hope that helps.  There are no "magic numbers" - just throw whatever 
resolution you end up with at the printer and let the magic of 
stochastic dithering and spatial noise shaping sort it all out for you. 
:-)

Kennedy

RE: [Digital BW] Image Resolution vs. Print Output Resolution

2002-03-21 by Austin Franklin

Hi Keith,

> To cut to the bottomline for those who inveterately turn to the last page
> first.. For current EPSON printers, the max usable and demonstrably better
> image resolution (when sent to the driver) is 720 dpi (assuming the image
is
> not being resized by the driver). I'll leave it to my friend to explain
why...

I believe there is a more important bottom line:

> There are no "magic numbers" - just throw whatever
> resolution you end up with at the printer and let the magic of
> stochastic dithering and spatial noise shaping sort it all out for you.
> :-)

Which is what I, and a number of others, have been saying.  Thanks for
bringing Kennedy's explanation into the fray.

Austin

Re: [Digital BW] Image Resolution vs. Print Output Resolution

2002-03-22 by Alan Zinn

At 06:05 PM 3/21/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>What follows is as it has been explained to me by an Imaging system 
>scientist/design engineer. He also happens to be a skilled printer and 
>photographer, who does his prints on EPSONs. He also is a regular contributor 
>to my (shamelss plug)  1700+ member user list of EPSON photo printer 
>afficionados.  ;-)
>
>To cut to the bottomline for those who inveterately turn to the last page 
>first.. For current EPSON printers, the max usable and demonstrably better 
>image resolution (when sent to the driver) is 720 dpi (assuming the image is 
>not being resized by the driver). I'll leave it to my friend to explain why...
>
>Keith
>

Keith,

Ahhh, breath-takingly informative! I feel I am a better person now having
read it although I'd surely flunk the quiz.  Must have the author's name for
proper crediting.  

Thanks,

AZ


Maker of Lookaround panoramic camera.

http://lookaroundcam.com/
         or
keyword.com lookaround

Re: [Digital BW] 16 X 8 bits editing

2002-03-23 by John

Todd,

That was very interesting, thanks for doing all that work and then posting
it.

John in Okc

snip
I expect it should raise more questions than
| it answers, but it's meant to encourage testing and the sharing of
results:
|
| <http://www.ourwebmaster.com/piezography3000/20020106ToddFlashner1.htm>
|
snip

RE: [Digital BW] Image Resolution vs. Print Output Resolution

2002-03-27 by Alessandro Pardi

I agree that the most important piece of information is that there are no
magic numbers, and am very grateful since, now that I can scan at 4000dpi, I
had taken the habit of downsampling to 360ppi before printing on A4.
On the other hand, I wouldn't disregard what Kennedy writes about the source
of the image:
 
>The problem of printing at higher resolutions has more to do with the
source of the >image than the capabilities of the printer.  In scanned
images, for example, film >grain can be highly accentuated due to the errors
at each dot placement, making the >print look substantially grainier than an
equivalent chemical print.

I'd like someone to elaborate on this: what does "higher resolutions" mean?
Higher than 200ppi? Or maybe it implies that some images would suffer from
being printed at, say, 480ppi rather than 300 because of their grain
structure? His description somehow reminds me of problems such as grain
aliasing in scanning.
 
Alessandro Pardi

----------------------------------------------------
One day I'll have a website.
Until then, you can see some of my work here:

http://www.photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=189247
<http://www.photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=189247>  

----------------------------------------------------
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Austin Franklin [mailto:darkroom@...om.com]
Sent: venerdì 22 marzo 2002 00.56
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Image Resolution vs. Print Output Resolution


Hi Keith,

> To cut to the bottomline for those who inveterately turn to the last page
> first.. For current EPSON printers, the max usable and demonstrably better
> image resolution (when sent to the driver) is 720 dpi (assuming the image
is
> not being resized by the driver). I'll leave it to my friend to explain
why...

I believe there is a more important bottom line:

> There are no "magic numbers" - just throw whatever
> resolution you end up with at the printer and let the magic of
> stochastic dithering and spatial noise shaping sort it all out for you.
> :-)

Which is what I, and a number of others, have been saying.  Thanks for
bringing Kennedy's explanation into the fray.

Austin



Yahoo! Groups Sponsor	

ADVERTISEMENT
 
<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=215002.1818248.3328688.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=17050191
82:HM/A=847665/R=0/*http://ads.x10.com/?bHlhaG9vbW9uc3RlcjcuZGF0=1016754945%
3eM=215002.1818248.3328688.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705019182:HM/A=847665/R=1>

 
<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=215002.1818248.3328688.1261774/D=egroupmai
l/S=1705019182:HM/A=847665/rand=710857095> 	

Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint> 

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- Include your full name with your message.
- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
- Complete your Yahoo profile.
- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage. 




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.