Digital BW, The Print

Todd,

You wrote:

>...the [Indelible K & Gen Enhanced K] fading, while more than the VM-K,
>really isn't that bad.

Well, I think it could be significant.  But, as noted in my last posting on
the subject, I think the Epson Archival Matte just may not be the best paper
for hybrid pigment/dye inks like the Generations Enhanced K.  The
Generations inkset has done rather well on it's Wilhelm tests.

The differences in the fading appears a bit understated by my densitometer
numbers at the 100% test patch relative to the 70% patch and relative to
what my scanner saw at 100%.  (The scanner saw no fade in the MIS VM K 100%
patch.)  Looking at all the numbers, I'd say it is safe to say the MIS VM K
is fading at less than half the rate of the other two.  But, again, the
fading, in and of itself, is not my major concern here.

> In light of the fact that the Indelibles K, and Gen
>K, both start out denser than the VM-K, then fade relatively more, but
still
>end up darker than the VM-K, can you speak to how they all look relative to
>each other at the end of your test. IOW, even though the Indelibles and Gen
>K's fade more, may they still not be a superior K at the end of the day
>(whenever that may be)?

If the current rates of fade stay constant, then MIS VM would end up
blacker, but I really don't know how long that would take in normal display.
It could be a very long time.  At some point, all else being equal, I may
agree that a darker initial black may be more important than what happens
after many years of display.

The mere fact that the Indelible K (maybe) and Generations Enhanced K have
some dye in the mix is not, in and of itself, a big problem in my view.  I
will probably experiment with some black dye added to MIS VM K, because it
might actually help me, in the right mix, with the warming issue.

The warming is the issue that I am concerned with the most, and that
differential is significant.  A scan of the test strips is posted in the
files section.

To see a scan of the test strips go to the Files section of the forum at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

Then go to > "Inksets, reviews and techniques" and see image
"Fade-Test-100Hr-Indelible(M&M)-K.jpg.

I think the warming will make a visible difference in photos in the shadow
areas.  Here are the densitometer readings again of the 70% patch that
compares the performance of these inks in my 100 hour florescent light fade
test.  The numbers are the cyan, magenta, yellow, and visual densities as
read by an X-Rite Digital Swatchbook.

Indelible K @ 70% Control:  0.70, 0.68, 0.68, 0.69;
Indelible K @ 70% 100 Hr:   0.66, 0.66, 0.68, 0.66;
	Warming = change is cyan-yellow readings
			= (.7-.68)-(.66-.68)
			= 0.04
	Fade = (visual density change) = 0.03.

MIS VM K @ 70% Control:  0.57, 0.57, 0.58, 0.57;
MIS VM K @ 70% 100 Hr:   0.56, 0.57, 0.58, 0.57;
	Warming = (.57-.58)-(.56-.58)
			= 0.01
	Fade = 0 (no measurable change in visual density)

Gen Enhanced K @ 70% Control:  0.73, 0.70, 0.71, 0.72;
Gen Enhanced K @ 70% 100 Hr:   0.68, 0.68, 0.71, 0.68;
	Warming = (.73-.71)-(.68-.71)
			= 0.05
	Fade = 0.04.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com


_____________________________
on 3/25/02 2:19 AM, Paul Roark wrote:

> The enhanced K has never done well in my fade tests.  I think that the dye
> on EAM is a combination that does not optimize the enhanced K's life.  I
> recall reading that while EAM is great for pigments, it is not good for
> dyes.  I suspect the paper MS used to get the Wilhelm test results is a
good
> hint as to which paper that black does well on.
>
> I doubt that pollution was a problem.
>
> The fading wasn't really that bad, and it's all relative anyway.

Thanks,
Todd

> The warming is the issue that I am concerned with the most, and that
> differential is significant.  A scan of the test strips is posted in the
> files section.
> 
> To see a scan of the test strips go to the Files section of the forum at:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> Then go to > "Inksets, reviews and techniques" and see image
> "Fade-Test-100Hr-Indelible(M&M)-K.jpg.

Thanks for that Paul, I didn't realize you had that posted. Yes, the warming
is troublesome and more than I expected.

Just curious, are you leaving the samples in for an extended period too? I
wonder if certain inks have the ability to withstand a certain amount of
initial light, then pass a threshold, and then fade rapidly after that. Just
a little nagging fear of mine, not based on anything concrete.

Todd

On 3/25/02 8:48 AM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:


> The mere fact that the Indelible K (maybe) and Generations Enhanced K have
> some dye in the mix is not, in and of itself, a big problem in my view.

Gary Finoe...the creator of the Indelibles has reiterated his stance that
the Indelibles have absolutely no dye.  You explanation concerning EAM and
dyes is certainly a good one...I'd love to see this on Hahnemuhle or
whatever paper Wilhelm used for the Gen4 rating.

Robert

Robert Morrison  wrote:
 >You explanation concerning EAM and
> dyes is certainly a good one...I'd love to see this on 
>Hahnemuhle or whatever paper Wilhelm used for the Gen4 
>rating.

That would be Royal Plush which is Hahnemuhle's German 
Etching.

John V.

on 3/25/02 1:21 PM, Robert Morrison wrote:

> On 3/25/02 8:48 AM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:
> 
> 
>> The mere fact that the Indelible K (maybe) and Generations Enhanced K have
>> some dye in the mix is not, in and of itself, a big problem in my view.
> 
> Gary Finoe...the creator of the Indelibles has reiterated his stance that
> the Indelibles have absolutely no dye.  You explanation concerning EAM and
> dyes is certainly a good one...I'd love to see this on Hahnemuhle or
> whatever paper Wilhelm used for the Gen4 rating.

I'm pretty sure Wilhelm used Royal Plush, which is Media Streets rebranded
German Etching (AKA Orwell).

Todd