Digital BW, The Print

I re-ran this fade test to be sure the first one was representative.  In the
first test, the sample came from a 3rd party.  The new sample came from M&M,
an apparent distributor of Indelible inks.  As before, the tests were on
Epson Archival Matte.

I see no evidence that the first test was not representative of Indelible
black ink.  The results of the second test at 100 hours are consistent with
the results of the first test.

The bottom line results of the current 100 hour fade test are that Indelible
K fades and warms more than MIS VM K.  The Indelible K has characteristics
closer to Generations Enhanced black than to MIS VM or FS black ink.

A scan of the test strips is in the files section of the forum.  The Files
section is at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

Then go to > "Inksets, reviews and techniques" and see image
"Fade-Test-100Hr-Indelible(M&M)-K.jpg.

The specific X-Rite densitometer readings for 100% black depth and fade
(100% visual density before and after 100 hours of exposure to the bright
florescent light) and midtone warming (change in 70% cyan-yellow difference)
for the current test are as follows:

100 % Black:

Indelible 100% control visual density  = 1.76;
Indelible 100% 100 Hr. fade v. density = 1.74;
	Fade =  0.02;

MIS VM K  100% control visual density  = 1.69;
MIS VM K  100% 100 Hr. fade v. density = 1.68;
	Fade 0.01;

Gen Enhanced K 100% control v. density = 1.81;
Gen Enh. K 100% 100 Hr fade v. density = 1.79;
	Fade 0.02.

70% (X-Rite readings for Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, & Visual):

(Included below is a calculation of what I think is the best measure of
"warming" of the print -- which I think is a serious issue with quads.
Warming involves a tone change caused by the relative increase in red
[reduction in cyan] and reduction of blue [increase in yellow].  To
calculate this relative warming, I compare the cyan and yellow readings of
the contol and faded test strips.  Warming tends to happend quickest at
first, stablilizing after about 300 hours.  Relative performance at 100
hours generally is an accurate predictor of relative performance at 300
hours and on as long as I've done these tests.)

Indelible K @ 70% Control:  0.70, 0.68, 0.68, 0.69;
Indelible K @ 70% 100 Hr:   0.66, 0.66, 0.68, 0.66;
	Warming = change is cyan-yellow readings
			= (.7-.68)-(.66-.68)
			= 0.04
	Fade = (visual density change) = 0.03.

MIS VM K @ 70% Control:  0.57, 0.57, 0.58, 0.57;
MIS VM K @ 70% 100 Hr:   0.56, 0.57, 0.58, 0.57;
	Warming = (.57-.58)-(.56-.58)
			= 0.01
	Fade = 0 (no measurable change in visual density)

Gen Enhanced K @ 70% Control:  0.73, 0.70, 0.71, 0.72;
Gen Enhanced K @ 70% 100 Hr:   0.68, 0.68, 0.71, 0.68;
	Warming = (.73-.71)-(.68-.71)
			= 0.05
	Fade = 0.04.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Paul, I get this warm, fuzzy feeling whenever you write posts with lots of
numbers down at the bottom!  LOL

Seriously, after all the mud that some have slung at you on this and
(especially) certain other lists, most especially by the makers and
distributors of certain inkjet products, it must be gratifying to have your
original findings reconfirmed.  It's just too bad that you had to go to this
additional trouble, instead of testing something new.

I just wanted to say that I really appreciate your work and approach to
these questions.

Thanks

Bill Morse
PhotoProspect
Cambridge, MA 02139

on 3/23/02 10:50 PM, Paul Roark wrote:

I re-ran this fade test to be sure the first one was representative.  In the
first test, the sample came from a 3rd party.  The new sample came from M&M,
an apparent distributor of Indelible inks.  As before, the tests were on
Epson Archival Matte.

I see no evidence that the first test was not representative of Indelible
black ink.  The results of the second test at 100 hours are consistent with
the results of the first test.

The bottom line results of the current 100 hour fade test are that Indelible
K fades and warms more than MIS VM K.  The Indelible K has characteristics
closer to Generations Enhanced black than to MIS VM or FS black ink.

A scan of the test strips is in the files section of the forum.  The Files
section is at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

Then go to > "Inksets, reviews and techniques" and see image
"Fade-Test-100Hr-Indelible(M&M)-K.jpg.

The specific X-Rite densitometer readings for 100% black depth and fade
(100% visual density before and after 100 hours of exposure to the bright
florescent light) and midtone warming (change in 70% cyan-yellow difference)
for the current test are as follows:

100 % Black:

Indelible 100% control visual density  = 1.76;
Indelible 100% 100 Hr. fade v. density = 1.74;
     Fade =  0.02;

MIS VM K  100% control visual density  = 1.69;
MIS VM K  100% 100 Hr. fade v. density = 1.68;
     Fade 0.01;

Gen Enhanced K 100% control v. density = 1.81;
Gen Enh. K 100% 100 Hr fade v. density = 1.79;
     Fade 0.02.

70% (X-Rite readings for Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, & Visual):

(Included below is a calculation of what I think is the best measure of
"warming" of the print -- which I think is a serious issue with quads.
Warming involves a tone change caused by the relative increase in red
[reduction in cyan] and reduction of blue [increase in yellow].  To
calculate this relative warming, I compare the cyan and yellow readings of
the contol and faded test strips.  Warming tends to happend quickest at
first, stablilizing after about 300 hours.  Relative performance at 100
hours generally is an accurate predictor of relative performance at 300
hours and on as long as I've done these tests.)

Indelible K @ 70% Control:  0.70, 0.68, 0.68, 0.69;
Indelible K @ 70% 100 Hr:   0.66, 0.66, 0.68, 0.66;
     Warming = change is cyan-yellow readings
                 = (.7-.68)-(.66-.68)
                 = 0.04
     Fade = (visual density change) = 0.03.

MIS VM K @ 70% Control:  0.57, 0.57, 0.58, 0.57;
MIS VM K @ 70% 100 Hr:   0.56, 0.57, 0.58, 0.57;
     Warming = (.57-.58)-(.56-.58)
                 = 0.01
     Fade = 0 (no measurable change in visual density)

Gen Enhanced K @ 70% Control:  0.73, 0.70, 0.71, 0.72;
Gen Enhanced K @ 70% 100 Hr:   0.68, 0.68, 0.71, 0.68;
     Warming = (.73-.71)-(.68-.71)
                 = 0.05
     Fade = 0.04.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bill,

Having been a consumer protection advocate for 25 years, I take the flak
from sellers as a positive sign that I've done my job.

The new test added the Gen Enhanced K, so there is new information in it.
I'm not going to take it further, but I've noticed on another list people
wonder why their Gen prints are getting brown shadows.  I think we can see
very plainly why that is happening.

If you want those deep blacks, you're going to pay a price.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

____________________________

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Bill Morse [mailto:willym@...]
  Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 10:43 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Indelible Black Fade Test (M&M sample)


  Paul, I get this warm, fuzzy feeling whenever you write posts with lots of
  numbers down at the bottom!  LOL

  Seriously, after all the mud that some have slung at you on this and
  (especially) certain other lists, most especially by the makers and
  distributors of certain inkjet products, it must be gratifying to have
your
  original findings reconfirmed.  It's just too bad that you had to go to
this
  additional trouble, instead of testing something new.

  I just wanted to say that I really appreciate your work and approach to
  these questions.

  Thanks

  Bill Morse
  PhotoProspect
  Cambridge, MA 02139

  on 3/23/02 10:50 PM, Paul Roark wrote:

  I re-ran this fade test to be sure the first one was representative.  In
the
  first test, the sample came from a 3rd party.  The new sample came from
M&M,
  an apparent distributor of Indelible inks.  As before, the tests were on
  Epson Archival Matte.

  I see no evidence that the first test was not representative of Indelible
  black ink.  The results of the second test at 100 hours are consistent
with
  the results of the first test.

  The bottom line results of the current 100 hour fade test are that
Indelible
  K fades and warms more than MIS VM K.  The Indelible K has characteristics
  closer to Generations Enhanced black than to MIS VM or FS black ink.

  A scan of the test strips is in the files section of the forum.  The Files
  section is at:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

  Then go to > "Inksets, reviews and techniques" and see image
  "Fade-Test-100Hr-Indelible(M&M)-K.jpg.

  The specific X-Rite densitometer readings for 100% black depth and fade
  (100% visual density before and after 100 hours of exposure to the bright
  florescent light) and midtone warming (change in 70% cyan-yellow
difference)
  for the current test are as follows:

  100 % Black:

  Indelible 100% control visual density  = 1.76;
  Indelible 100% 100 Hr. fade v. density = 1.74;
       Fade =  0.02;

  MIS VM K  100% control visual density  = 1.69;
  MIS VM K  100% 100 Hr. fade v. density = 1.68;
       Fade 0.01;

  Gen Enhanced K 100% control v. density = 1.81;
  Gen Enh. K 100% 100 Hr fade v. density = 1.79;
       Fade 0.02.

  70% (X-Rite readings for Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, & Visual):

  (Included below is a calculation of what I think is the best measure of
  "warming" of the print -- which I think is a serious issue with quads.
  Warming involves a tone change caused by the relative increase in red
  [reduction in cyan] and reduction of blue [increase in yellow].  To
  calculate this relative warming, I compare the cyan and yellow readings of
  the contol and faded test strips.  Warming tends to happend quickest at
  first, stablilizing after about 300 hours.  Relative performance at 100
  hours generally is an accurate predictor of relative performance at 300
  hours and on as long as I've done these tests.)

  Indelible K @ 70% Control:  0.70, 0.68, 0.68, 0.69;
  Indelible K @ 70% 100 Hr:   0.66, 0.66, 0.68, 0.66;
       Warming = change is cyan-yellow readings
                   = (.7-.68)-(.66-.68)
                   = 0.04
       Fade = (visual density change) = 0.03.

  MIS VM K @ 70% Control:  0.57, 0.57, 0.58, 0.57;
  MIS VM K @ 70% 100 Hr:   0.56, 0.57, 0.58, 0.57;
       Warming = (.57-.58)-(.56-.58)
                   = 0.01
       Fade = 0 (no measurable change in visual density)

  Gen Enhanced K @ 70% Control:  0.73, 0.70, 0.71, 0.72;
  Gen Enhanced K @ 70% 100 Hr:   0.68, 0.68, 0.71, 0.68;
       Warming = (.73-.71)-(.68-.71)
                   = 0.05
       Fade = 0.04.

  Paul
  http://www.PaulRoark.com


  Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT

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  other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

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  - Include your full name with your message.
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  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              ADVERTISEMENT




  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paul, are you saying the generations Enhanced black ink is fading to brown?
I have never experienced this at all. I've never seen any fading from any of the generations inks when displayed in normal room lighting,
and I've been using them
since they came out.

Jerry

Jerry,

You wrote:

>Paul, are you saying the generations Enhanced black ink is fading to brown?
>I have never experienced this at all. I've never seen any fading from
>any of the generations inks when displayed in normal room lighting,
>and I've been using them since they came out.

I think most people with normal viewing situations do not notice quick color
changes or fading.  However, consistent with the test I just did, note this
abridged comment on the 9000 list:
_____________

Message 16717
>... Fri Mar 22, 2002  9:15 pm
>Subject:  Quick fading of Gen4 Inks


>...
>I printed some Christmas cards for my family, just fun stuff, onto
>Epson Archival Matte and they have faded badly already.
>That's 4 months.

>The black has gone muddy and the print looks a lot like when the
>black nozzles are not firing and the dark areas are a dark
>red/brown colour.

>The other colours seem OK, ...

>Now, these prints were never framed and have suffered through a hot
>Australian summer with high humidity although they have never had
>sunlight on them. I have other prints on German Etching that look
>good after up to a year, unframed, but these ones on Epson Archival
>Matte now look awful.

>...
_______________

So, I don't know if it related to anything I saw on the last test or not.
However, this thread may be worth keeping an eye on if you are using Gen
Enhanced K, perhaps especially with EAM.

Paul

Yeah...and I didn't give him a bogus inks sample!!!  I'm exonerated!!!

Robert

On 3/24/02 10:43 AM, "Bill Morse" <willym@...> wrote:

> Paul, I get this warm, fuzzy feeling whenever you write posts with lots of
> numbers down at the bottom!  LOL
> 
> Seriously, after all the mud that some have slung at you on this and
> (especially) certain other lists, most especially by the makers and
> distributors of certain inkjet products, it must be gratifying to have your
> original findings reconfirmed.  It's just too bad that you had to go to this
> additional trouble, instead of testing something new.
> 
> I just wanted to say that I really appreciate your work and approach to
> these questions.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Bill Morse
> PhotoProspect
> Cambridge, MA 02139
> 
> on 3/23/02 10:50 PM, Paul Roark wrote:
> 
> I re-ran this fade test to be sure the first one was representative.  In the
> first test, the sample came from a 3rd party.  The new sample came from M&M,
> an apparent distributor of Indelible inks.  As before, the tests were on
> Epson Archival Matte.
> 
> I see no evidence that the first test was not representative of Indelible
> black ink.  The results of the second test at 100 hours are consistent with
> the results of the first test.
> 
> The bottom line results of the current 100 hour fade test are that Indelible
> K fades and warms more than MIS VM K.  The Indelible K has characteristics
> closer to Generations Enhanced black than to MIS VM or FS black ink.
> 
> A scan of the test strips is in the files section of the forum.  The Files
> section is at:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> Then go to > "Inksets, reviews and techniques" and see image
> "Fade-Test-100Hr-Indelible(M&M)-K.jpg.
> 
> The specific X-Rite densitometer readings for 100% black depth and fade
> (100% visual density before and after 100 hours of exposure to the bright
> florescent light) and midtone warming (change in 70% cyan-yellow difference)
> for the current test are as follows:
> 
> 100 % Black:
> 
> Indelible 100% control visual density  = 1.76;
> Indelible 100% 100 Hr. fade v. density = 1.74;
>    Fade =  0.02;
> 
> MIS VM K  100% control visual density  = 1.69;
> MIS VM K  100% 100 Hr. fade v. density = 1.68;
>    Fade 0.01;
> 
> Gen Enhanced K 100% control v. density = 1.81;
> Gen Enh. K 100% 100 Hr fade v. density = 1.79;
>    Fade 0.02.
> 
> 70% (X-Rite readings for Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, & Visual):
> 
> (Included below is a calculation of what I think is the best measure of
> "warming" of the print -- which I think is a serious issue with quads.
> Warming involves a tone change caused by the relative increase in red
> [reduction in cyan] and reduction of blue [increase in yellow].  To
> calculate this relative warming, I compare the cyan and yellow readings of
> the contol and faded test strips.  Warming tends to happend quickest at
> first, stablilizing after about 300 hours.  Relative performance at 100
> hours generally is an accurate predictor of relative performance at 300
> hours and on as long as I've done these tests.)
> 
> Indelible K @ 70% Control:  0.70, 0.68, 0.68, 0.69;
> Indelible K @ 70% 100 Hr:   0.66, 0.66, 0.68, 0.66;
>    Warming = change is cyan-yellow readings
>                = (.7-.68)-(.66-.68)
>                = 0.04
>    Fade = (visual density change) = 0.03.
> 
> MIS VM K @ 70% Control:  0.57, 0.57, 0.58, 0.57;
> MIS VM K @ 70% 100 Hr:   0.56, 0.57, 0.58, 0.57;
>    Warming = (.57-.58)-(.56-.58)
>                = 0.01
>    Fade = 0 (no measurable change in visual density)
> 
> Gen Enhanced K @ 70% Control:  0.73, 0.70, 0.71, 0.72;
> Gen Enhanced K @ 70% 100 Hr:   0.68, 0.68, 0.71, 0.68;
>    Warming = (.73-.71)-(.68-.71)
>                = 0.05
>    Fade = 0.04.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Paul, I just don't understand how this is possible! Your 300 hour test showed nothing
like this, EAM paper has always been one of the best with pigment inks. Have any other people said they had fading with the Generations
enhanced black?

In 2 months in a sunny window, even the straight MIS DYE ink didn't fade much at all on EAM Paper. I wonder if it's a pollutant of some kind
in the atmosphere.

Jerry

> >Paul, are you saying the generations Enhanced black ink is fading to brown?
> >I have never experienced this at all. I've never seen any fading from
> >any of the generations inks when displayed in normal room lighting,
> >and I've been using them since they came out.
>
> I think most people with normal viewing situations do not notice quick color
> changes or fading.  However, consistent with the test I just did, note this
> abridged comment on the 9000 list:
> _____________
>
> Message 16717
> >... Fri Mar 22, 2002  9:15 pm
> >Subject:  Quick fading of Gen4 Inks
>
> >...
> >I printed some Christmas cards for my family, just fun stuff, onto
> >Epson Archival Matte and they have faded badly already.
> >That's 4 months.
>
> >The black has gone muddy and the print looks a lot like when the
> >black nozzles are not firing and the dark areas are a dark
> >red/brown colour.
>
> >The other colours seem OK, ...
>
> >Now, these prints were never framed and have suffered through a hot
> >Australian summer with high humidity although they have never had
> >sunlight on them. I have other prints on German Etching that look
> >good after up to a year, unframed, but these ones on Epson Archival
> >Matte now look awful.
>
> >...
> _______________
>
> So, I don't know if it related to anything I saw on the last test or not.
> However, this thread may be worth keeping an eye on if you are using Gen
> Enhanced K, perhaps especially with EAM.
>
> Paul
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Jerry,

The enhanced K has never done well in my fade tests.  I think that the dye
on EAM is a combination that does not optimize the enhanced K's life.  I
recall reading that while EAM is great for pigments, it is not good for
dyes.  I suspect the paper MS used to get the Wilhelm test results is a good
hint as to which paper that black does well on.

I doubt that pollution was a problem.

The fading wasn't really that bad, and it's all relative anyway.

Paul

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
  Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 7:35 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Indelible Black Fade Test (M&M sample)


  Paul, I just don't understand how this is possible! Your 300 hour test
showed nothing
  like this, EAM paper has always been one of the best with pigment inks.
Have any other people said they had fading with the Generations
  enhanced black?

  In 2 months in a sunny window, even the straight MIS DYE ink didn't fade
much at all on EAM Paper. I wonder if it's a pollutant of some kind
  in the atmosphere.

  Jerry
















  > >Paul, are you saying the generations Enhanced black ink is fading to
brown?
  > >I have never experienced this at all. I've never seen any fading from
  > >any of the generations inks when displayed in normal room lighting,
  > >and I've been using them since they came out.
  >
  > I think most people with normal viewing situations do not notice quick
color
  > changes or fading.  However, consistent with the test I just did, note
this
  > abridged comment on the 9000 list:
  > _____________
  >
  > Message 16717
  > >... Fri Mar 22, 2002  9:15 pm
  > >Subject:  Quick fading of Gen4 Inks
  >
  > >...
  > >I printed some Christmas cards for my family, just fun stuff, onto
  > >Epson Archival Matte and they have faded badly already.
  > >That's 4 months.
  >
  > >The black has gone muddy and the print looks a lot like when the
  > >black nozzles are not firing and the dark areas are a dark
  > >red/brown colour.
  >
  > >The other colours seem OK, ...
  >
  > >Now, these prints were never framed and have suffered through a hot
  > >Australian summer with high humidity although they have never had
  > >sunlight on them. I have other prints on German Etching that look
  > >good after up to a year, unframed, but these ones on Epson Archival
  > >Matte now look awful.
  >
  > >...
  > _______________
  >
  > So, I don't know if it related to anything I saw on the last test or
not.
  > However, this thread may be worth keeping an eye on if you are using Gen
  > Enhanced K, perhaps especially with EAM.
  >
  > Paul
  >
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

on 3/25/02 2:19 AM, Paul Roark wrote:

> The enhanced K has never done well in my fade tests.  I think that the dye
> on EAM is a combination that does not optimize the enhanced K's life.  I
> recall reading that while EAM is great for pigments, it is not good for
> dyes.  I suspect the paper MS used to get the Wilhelm test results is a good
> hint as to which paper that black does well on.
> 
> I doubt that pollution was a problem.
> 
> The fading wasn't really that bad, and it's all relative anyway.

Paul,

Good points on the paper and that the fading, while more than the VM-K,
really isn't that bad. In light of the fact that the Indelibles K, and Gen
K, both start out denser than the VM-K, then fade relatively more, but still
end up darker than the VM-K, can you speak to how they all look relative to
each other at the end of your test. IOW, even though the Indelibles and Gen
K's fade more, may they still not be a superior K at the end of the day
(whenever that may be)?

Could you post scans to the files section so we can see the visual
representation of what your numbers suggest?

Thanks,
Todd