Digital BW, The Print

In a message dated 08/21/2001 4:38:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
mwesley250@... writes:

<< Speaking of Torchon I have noticed a huge amount of warm up in the 
 prints. It seems to take several days if not weeks and the rather 
 neutral prints I made on it 2 weeks ago are now among the warmest 
 PiezoBW prints I have made.
 
 Since I prefer a more neutral tone, Torchon is rapidly sliding off my 
 favorite's list.
 
 Anyone else seeing this?
  >>
I think I was right when I stated I thought this paper was re-branded Musum 
Parchment paper. Same experience over a year ago- almost 2 years ago. And I 
warned its lovers to window test it or something before getting too crazy 
about it.
If its not  the same as Museum Parchment Then I apologize. 
Steve M.

Steve,

You are correct Torchon is Hahnemule's name which is also sold as 
Royal Riviera 285, Museum Parchment and Soft Fine Art.

Any difference between the PiezoBW and MIS ink sets as far as warming 
on this paper?

Martin


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., sdmey4@a... wrote:

(snip)
>   >>
> I think I was right when I stated I thought this paper was re-
branded Musum 
> Parchment paper. Same experience over a year ago- almost 2 years 
ago. And I 
> warned its lovers to window test it or something before getting too 
crazy 

> about it.
> If its not  the same as Museum Parchment Then I apologize. 
> Steve M.

Martin,  is this with the piezo inks? I'm going to put one with the MIS cold
tone inks in the south window tomorrow. I'll use the cool curve, and we'll
see how it fares in a few weeks.

There aren't a lot of papers around that seem not to fade, are there? I've
not seen it with epson Archival yet, so there's one good one. I sure hope
the photo matte holds up. Of course I've also not seen any green cast with
piezo inks either!

The Epson archival has withstood 3 months in a south window with practically
no change in color using Pauls curve and the MIS variable inkset. The
doctored piezo yellow position ink was also a good candidate, and did not
fade either. The epson paper turned a slight cream color, but the inks
didn't change visually. I suppose an instrument would have seen changes.

Jerry




Martin Wesley wrote:

> Speaking of Torchon I have noticed a huge amount of warm up in the
> prints. It seems to take several days if not weeks and the rather
> neutral prints I made on it 2 weeks ago are now among the warmest
> PiezoBW prints I have made.
>
> Since I prefer a more neutral tone, Torchon is rapidly sliding off my
> favorite's list.
>
> Anyone else seeing this?
>
> Martin
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael J. Kravit"
> <kravit@b...> wrote:
> > Todd wrote:
> >   >>What I'd like is just a non parchment version of Torchon. Is
> that so
> >   >>difficult. ;-) It's bright enough, it's stiff enough, it's
> blacks are good -
> >   >>If Hahnemuhle would just take it out of the waffle iron.... :*[
> >
> >   Now wouldn't that be sweet. I could print with only one paper. I
> would buy a closet full to ensure a lifelong supply!
> >
> >   How about it Hannemuhle, Torchon 285 w/o the texture!
> >
> >   Mike
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> The Group Homepage can be found at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Jerry,

Yep. I am still printing with the Piezo on my 1200. Have everything 
to do the MIS VM except time!

I hope you get a better result with you test of MIS on Torchon. It 
really is a great paper.

I find the fading/warm shifting really disturbing. I put a lot of 
effort into a print to get it just to a perfect tonal balance and it 
is really upsetting to know I can't count on that lasting very long!

Have you tried Hahnemule Structure 150? I think that it is one of the 
best as far as white base; deep blacks (like Torchon) and neutral 
image go. Unfortunately it is not much thicker than binder paper! 
Image color seems stable too. Really frustrating.

The color shift in the EAM base was probably the brighteners fading 
out.

After seeing some VM prints and other people's Piezo prints I am 
going to have to take back me "no green here" statement but it has 
nothing to do with the paper. More on that later.

Martin


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Martin,  is this with the piezo inks? I'm going to put one with the 
MIS cold
> tone inks in the south window tomorrow. I'll use the cool curve, 
and we'll
> see how it fares in a few weeks.
> 
> There aren't a lot of papers around that seem not to fade, are 
there? I've
> not seen it with epson Archival yet, so there's one good one. I 
sure hope
> the photo matte holds up. Of course I've also not seen any green 
cast with
> piezo inks either!
> 
> The Epson archival has withstood 3 months in a south window with 
practically
> no change in color using Pauls curve and the MIS variable inkset. 
The
> doctored piezo yellow position ink was also a good candidate, and 
did not
> fade either. The epson paper turned a slight cream color, but the 
inks
> didn't change visually. I suppose an instrument would have seen 
changes.
> 
> Jerry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Martin Wesley wrote:
> 
> > Speaking of Torchon I have noticed a huge amount of warm up in the
> > prints. It seems to take several days if not weeks and the rather
> > neutral prints I made on it 2 weeks ago are now among the warmest
> > PiezoBW prints I have made.
> >
> > Since I prefer a more neutral tone, Torchon is rapidly sliding 
off my
> > favorite's list.
> >
> > Anyone else seeing this?
> >
> > Martin
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael J. Kravit"
> > <kravit@b...> wrote:
> > > Todd wrote:
> > >   >>What I'd like is just a non parchment version of Torchon. Is
> > that so
> > >   >>difficult. ;-) It's bright enough, it's stiff enough, it's
> > blacks are good -
> > >   >>If Hahnemuhle would just take it out of the waffle 
iron.... :*[
> > >
> > >   Now wouldn't that be sweet. I could print with only one 
paper. I
> > would buy a closet full to ensure a lifelong supply!
> > >
> > >   How about it Hannemuhle, Torchon 285 w/o the texture!
> > >
> > >   Mike
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> > The Group Homepage can be found at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:

> The color shift in the EAM base was probably the brighteners 
fading 
> out.
> 

> Martin

Martin, Todd, et al
EAM is that extra bright because it seems to have brighteners in 
the coating (brightness grade more than 100% - blueish tint). 
Photo Rag has abot 97 to 98 % without  using brighteners.
Just to sum it up:
100% Rag, 188 and 308 gsm, acid free ph about 8, smooth but 
vivid surface, high dmax (W. Turner range), Price probably W. 
Turner range. 
(Oh boy, they will hire me - some day  : - )

Bernd

For those wanting prices online paper in the UK is shipping to customers
Thursday and has the papers on the web page here
http://www.on-linepaper.co.uk/acatalog/on_line_p_per_co_uk_Hahnemuhle_Digita
l_Fine_Art_Papers_137.html

I've got my order in and I'll post results when it comes. I should have some
prints to bring to the UK meet on 1st Sept

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: " Ruhrfoto/Bernd L." <ruhrfoto@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 8:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemuhle Photo Rag


> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
>
> > The color shift in the EAM base was probably the brighteners
> fading
> > out.
> >
>
> > Martin
>
> Martin, Todd, et al
> EAM is that extra bright because it seems to have brighteners in
> the coating (brightness grade more than 100% - blueish tint).
> Photo Rag has abot 97 to 98 % without  using brighteners.
> Just to sum it up:
> 100% Rag, 188 and 308 gsm, acid free ph about 8, smooth but
> vivid surface, high dmax (W. Turner range), Price probably W.
> Turner range.
> (Oh boy, they will hire me - some day  : - )
>
> Bernd
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage often and check the resources their
regularly. The page can be found at:

>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., " Ruhrfoto/Bernd L." 
<ruhrfoto@y...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > The color shift in the EAM base was probably the brighteners 
> fading 
> > out.
> > Martin
> 
> Martin, Todd, et al
> EAM is that extra bright because it seems to have brighteners in 
> the coating (brightness grade more than 100% - blueish tint). 
> Photo Rag has abot 97 to 98 % without  using brighteners.
> Bernd

Caveat:  Some of the below may be self-serving/self-promotion, but it 
is intended with education.
Although i have not seen and tested this particular sheet, it would 
surprise me if this particular 100% cotton sheet has a brightness 
rating of 97-98 WITHOUT optical brighteners.  Most of the other 
digital art papers we have done competitive testing on here in our 
labs DEFINITELY have optical brightening agents (OBA) in the sheet, 
and this includes Torchon, German Etching, and William Turner.  (i 
have not tested LPM, Eclipse, and some of the newer papers mentioned 
in this list...yet.)
It is true that OBA are not stable and may effect the print over 
time.  in my very humble opinion, i would personally be careful of 
using sheets with OBA for my prints.  

Self-promotion now coming:  the Crane digital art sheets (Museo, 
ESFA, ETFA) do NOT contain any OBA and are in fact the whitest that a 
100% cotton sheet can be.  As a very large purchaser of cotton fiber 
(think of all the currency paper), Crane specifies the cleanest 
cotton fiber from all our suppliers, and has a very rigorous 
inspection system for all incoming raw materials.

thanks for your attention, 
robert rex
(already hired by crane) ;)

> thanks for your attention,
> robert rex
> (already hired by crane) ;)
>
Hi Rex,
Do you need a Spanish rep to say wonderful things about Museo. I work
cheap... loads of free Museo, Epson 7000....

Julian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: chameleon@... [mailto:chameleon@...]
<snip>
>  As a very large purchaser of cotton fiber 
> (think of all the currency paper), Crane specifies the cleanest 
> cotton fiber from all our suppliers, and has a very rigorous 
> inspection system for all incoming raw materials.


Robert,

Do they do samples of that?

Nij

Martin,

In my Florida "Window Testing Program" the Structure 150 paper turns yellow and the Piezo ink tones warm up in as little as a week. I have not found this with Torchon however.

Regards,

Michael J. Kravit, AIA
Architect/Photographer
www.kravit.net/photography


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rex Wrote:

  >Self-promotion now coming:  the Crane digital art sheets (Museo, 
  >ESFA, ETFA) do NOT contain any OBA and are in fact the whitest that a 
  >100% cotton sheet can be.  As a very large purchaser of cotton fiber 
  >(think of all the currency paper), Crane specifies the cleanest 
  >cotton fiber from all our suppliers, and has a very rigorous 
  >inspection system for all incoming raw materials.

  From what I can tell, the biggest problem with Epson Smooth Fine art is the mottling and uneveness I get with MIS Inks, although the Piezo inks looked very nice. The second thing is that the sheet actually has a green tint to it when compared to other papers. Overall a nice sheet.

  MIke




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., chameleon@i... wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., " Ruhrfoto/Bernd L." 
> <ruhrfoto@y...> wrote:


> > Photo Rag has abot 97 to 98 % without  using brighteners.
> > Bernd


Robert Rex from Crane :
> Although i have not seen and tested this particular sheet, it 
would 
> surprise me if this particular 100% cotton sheet has a 
brightness 
> rating of 97-98 WITHOUT optical brighteners.  Most of the other 
> digital art papers we have done competitive testing on here in 
our 
> labs DEFINITELY have optical brightening agents (OBA) in the 
sheet, 
> and this includes Torchon, German Etching, and William 
Turner.  
> It is true that OBA are not stable and may effect the print over 
> time.  in my very humble opinion, i would personally be careful 
of 
> using sheets with OBA for my prints.  

> robert rex
> (already hired by crane) ;)


Sorry,
I have to apologize.
I discussed this color issue of Photo Rag with the Hahnemuhle 
people when I got my first "final paper" pack and was surprised 
that it was significantly brighter than my former test sheets. They 
told me on the phone that they decided to make it brighter in the 
last minute before starting to produce large quantities.
This H. representant told me something about 97-98% 
brightness without OBAs. 
As I am no chemist and don´t know the Hahnemule recepies I 
phoned him again today - after heaving read Robert´s posting, 
and he apologized to have messed something up: 97-98 % is 
the brightness of W. Turner. He scales Photo Rag in this range, 
but was not sure about the exact data. He will provide data later 
after having talked with the chemists.  

As I´m no Torchon fan, I didn´t compare it with Photo Rag 
directly.
If I do it now, I would say Photo Rag is not quite as white as 
Torchon (daylight comparison by eyeball) so its measured 
brightness should be a bit less than 98% but significantly more 
than GE which has about 92%
In regard of the OBA thread - I only can tell the claims of H., hope 
to get an official statement soon.

Bernd

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael J. Kravit" 
<kravit@b...> wrote:
>   Rex Wrote:
>   >Self-promotion now coming:  the Crane digital art sheets (Museo, 
>   >ESFA, ETFA) do NOT contain any OBA and are in fact the whitest 
that a 
>   >100% cotton sheet can be.  As a very large purchaser of cotton 
fiber 
>   >(think of all the currency paper), Crane specifies the cleanest 
>   >cotton fiber from all our suppliers, and has a very rigorous 
>   >inspection system for all incoming raw materials.
> 
>   From what I can tell, the biggest problem with Epson Smooth Fine 
art is the mottling and uneveness I get with MIS Inks, although the 
Piezo inks looked very nice. The second thing is that the sheet 
actually has a green tint to it when compared to other papers. 
Overall a nice sheet.
>   MIke

Ok, in comparing Museo or SFA to Eclipse, EAM, i understand what you 
appear to see as a yellow-green tint.  However, this is more of an 
optical illusion, as what you are really seeing is the whiteness of 
the other sheet being more blue-white.  Brightness is not the same as 
whiteness in paper tech talk.  Whiteness is measured on the "L" scale 
of LAB, whereas brightness is a measure of reflectivity (how much 
light is reflected off the paper).  here below are the brightness and 
L whiteness measurements we did a year ago (before wm. turner, 
eclipse, LPM hit the market--i'll try to get these measured here as 
well.)  NB: these are the measurements we took at Crane, the other 
mfgs. may have slightly different numbers or measuring scales; don't 
want to "diss" my competitors here. 

Torchon--100% wood, flourescent, L=95.11, Brightness=97.54
Concord Rag--mostly cotton, non-flourescent, L=93.83, B=80.25
Somerset E.--all cotton, slightly flourescent, L=95.93, B=93.06
and finally...
Museo--all cotton, non-flourescent, L=95.35, B=89.5 (SFA is made to 
these same L and B specs)

i do have some sheets of wm.turner, eclipse, and EAM here, and will 
try to get these tested in the next few days.  It will be interesting 
see the numbers Bernd gets from H. on the Photo Rag.

if you have questions, contact me off-list at rrex@...

thanks and hope this helps
robert rex

on 8/22/01 9:57 AM, chameleon@... wrote:

> Torchon--100% wood, flourescent, L=95.11, Brightness=97.54
> Concord Rag--mostly cotton, non-flourescent, L=93.83, B=80.25
> Somerset E.--all cotton, slightly flourescent, L=95.93, B=93.06
> and finally...
> Museo--all cotton, non-flourescent, L=95.35, B=89.5 (SFA is made to
> these same L and B specs)

Robert,

Could you define fluorescence, and elaborate more on how it relates to
brightness, and lightness, and if relevant, stability.

Appreciate your insight,
Todd

One personal little note to add to this paper whiteness conversation.

With the VT system, Paul's cool curve on a paper with a creamy base gives a
wonderful little yin-yang effect which, while not suitable for all images,
when it clicks it's gorgeous! Cool shadows, creamy highlights. Yum.

Todd

Martin, if Torchon goes, then what?  It appears ALL the Hahnumuhle papers have the same coating so I
suppose they all will shift/fade over time.  I can't think of many papers, or should I say ANY papers we
discuss on these lists that somebody hasn't said faded or shifted colors for them.

The really strange thing is that under NORMAL room lighting, I've never seen ANY print fade or shift
colors.

Are there any people on any of these lists who actually sell their epson prints in the $600 and up price
range?  If there are, I wonder what inks and papers they are using and what they are telling the customers
about longevity.

Jerry




Martin Wesley wrote:

> Jerry,
>
> Yep. I am still printing with the Piezo on my 1200. Have everything
> to do the MIS VM except time!
>
> I hope you get a better result with you test of MIS on Torchon. It
> really is a great paper.
>
> I find the fading/warm shifting really disturbing. I put a lot of
> effort into a print to get it just to a perfect tonal balance and it
> is really upsetting to know I can't count on that lasting very long!
>
> Have you tried Hahnemule Structure 150? I think that it is one of the
> best as far as white base; deep blacks (like Torchon) and neutral
> image go. Unfortunately it is not much thicker than binder paper!
> Image color seems stable too. Really frustrating.
>
> The color shift in the EAM base was probably the brighteners fading
> out.
>
> After seeing some VM prints and other people's Piezo prints I am
> going to have to take back me "no green here" statement but it has
> nothing to do with the paper. More on that later.
>
> Martin
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson
> <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> > Martin,  is this with the piezo inks? I'm going to put one with the
> MIS cold
> > tone inks in the south window tomorrow. I'll use the cool curve,
> and we'll
> > see how it fares in a few weeks.
> >
> > There aren't a lot of papers around that seem not to fade, are
> there? I've
> > not seen it with epson Archival yet, so there's one good one. I
> sure hope
> > the photo matte holds up. Of course I've also not seen any green
> cast with
> > piezo inks either!
> >
> > The Epson archival has withstood 3 months in a south window with
> practically
> > no change in color using Pauls curve and the MIS variable inkset.
> The
> > doctored piezo yellow position ink was also a good candidate, and
> did not
> > fade either. The epson paper turned a slight cream color, but the
> inks
> > didn't change visually. I suppose an instrument would have seen
> changes.
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Martin Wesley wrote:
> >
> > > Speaking of Torchon I have noticed a huge amount of warm up in the
> > > prints. It seems to take several days if not weeks and the rather
> > > neutral prints I made on it 2 weeks ago are now among the warmest
> > > PiezoBW prints I have made.
> > >
> > > Since I prefer a more neutral tone, Torchon is rapidly sliding
> off my
> > > favorite's list.
> > >
> > > Anyone else seeing this?
> > >
> > > Martin
> > >
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael J. Kravit"
> > > <kravit@b...> wrote:
> > > > Todd wrote:
> > > >   >>What I'd like is just a non parchment version of Torchon. Is
> > > that so
> > > >   >>difficult. ;-) It's bright enough, it's stiff enough, it's
> > > blacks are good -
> > > >   >>If Hahnemuhle would just take it out of the waffle
> iron.... :*[
> > > >
> > > >   Now wouldn't that be sweet. I could print with only one
> paper. I
> > > would buy a closet full to ensure a lifelong supply!
> > > >
> > > >   How about it Hannemuhle, Torchon 285 w/o the texture!
> > > >
> > > >   Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > > The Group Homepage can be found at:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage often and check the resources their regularly. The page can be found at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Mike,

The lack of consistence results with all these materials is really 
frustrating. We use the same stuff and yet get such different 
results. I never got as far as window testing and yet my Torchon 
turned warmer than Somerset Enhanced sitting is a stack of prints 
while the Structure is unchanged (so far!) Are seeing differences due 
to changes in paper and/or ink lots? Wish I knew.

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael J. Kravit" 
<kravit@b...> wrote:
> Martin,
> 
> In my Florida "Window Testing Program" the Structure 150 paper 
turns yellow and the Piezo ink tones warm up in as little as a week. 
I have not found this with Torchon however.

> 
> Regards,
> 
> Michael J. Kravit, AIA
> Architect/Photographer
> www.kravit.net/photography
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robert, Bernd,

I finally got to see some prints on the new Hahnemule paper and I was 
surprised that it was not brighter. In fact to my eye it appeared to 
be almost identical in brightness to Museo. Very similar to the color 
of air dried fiber based silver prints. The surface is smoother and 
the blacks darker than Museo. It does not appear to have brighteners 
and as Robert says, this is probably about as bright as you can get 
without adding brighteners.

Will the OBA's effect the life of the paper or is it simply a matter 
of them fading out and changing the original appearance of the image? 
What is the expected life of the OB's in a paper under normal display 
and storage conditions?

I would guess that the Eclipse Satine and Velvet papers and the 
Legion Photo Matte all have OBA's.

This is rather disappointing for users of pigmented quad tone ink 
sets. The combinations of the matte papers and the matte finish of 
the inks give such as reduced Dmax compared to silver fiber; the very 
bright papers are real help in extending the tonal range of the 
process.

Thank you very much for the information.

Martin



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., chameleon@i... wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., " Ruhrfoto/Bernd L." 
> <ruhrfoto@y...> wrote:
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
> > <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > > The color shift in the EAM base was probably the brighteners 
> > fading 
> > > out.
> > > Martin
> > 
> > Martin, Todd, et al
> > EAM is that extra bright because it seems to have brighteners in 
> > the coating (brightness grade more than 100% - blueish tint). 
> > Photo Rag has abot 97 to 98 % without  using brighteners.
> > Bernd
> 
> Caveat:  Some of the below may be self-serving/self-promotion, but 
it 
> is intended with education.
> Although i have not seen and tested this particular sheet, it would 
> surprise me if this particular 100% cotton sheet has a brightness 
> rating of 97-98 WITHOUT optical brighteners.  Most of the other 
> digital art papers we have done competitive testing on here in our 
> labs DEFINITELY have optical brightening agents (OBA) in the sheet, 
> and this includes Torchon, German Etching, and William Turner.  (i 
> have not tested LPM, Eclipse, and some of the newer papers 
mentioned 
> in this list...yet.)
> It is true that OBA are not stable and may effect the print over 
> time.  in my very humble opinion, i would personally be careful of 
> using sheets with OBA for my prints.  
> 
> Self-promotion now coming:  the Crane digital art sheets (Museo, 
> ESFA, ETFA) do NOT contain any OBA and are in fact the whitest that 
a 
> 100% cotton sheet can be.  As a very large purchaser of cotton 
fiber 

> (think of all the currency paper), Crane specifies the cleanest 
> cotton fiber from all our suppliers, and has a very rigorous 
> inspection system for all incoming raw materials.
> 
> thanks for your attention, 
> robert rex
> (already hired by crane) ;)

Jerry, 
We sell our prints from 140.00 to well over a thousand dollars. Some are signed limited edition 
prints  made by our atelier department with epson 9000 and 7000 machines using MIS Archival color 
and Hextone inks. We also sell silver,platinum, color coupler, gravure and cibachrome depending on the 
artist's choice.

I have never tested a more archival color process than the MIS inks on rag paper.  I have never had a 
carbo print to place in the window but I will tell you that a coupler print or a cibachrome can not 
compare to the color longevity of the MIS on Somerset enhanced or concord rag. I use the old 
comparison test method of hanging prints in a southern window with a match print in the dark and 
compare them weekly. It is a simple but effective comparison test. We also are doing a delta e shift 
test but that requires a longer test period.

As for hextone- The hextone inks from MIS are basically the black Archival ink in various dilutions.  
The best longevity combination we have found is on concord rag. Current testing is favorable and I 
would welcome a comparison to silver print longevity. I would venture that the shift would not be as 
noticable on hextones as color as the red(magenta) ink fades first...about two months in the south 
window makes a slight shift to cyan (VERY SLIGHT). has any one tested the MIS hextones along with a 
silver print. If you like Send me 2  test silver prints  archivally prepared (can be step wedges)  with 
full tonal range. I will prepare a MIS hextone and test them all together. If you do the test yourself 
please let me know the results.

Best Wishes
Carl Corey
www.galleryprint.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> 
wrote:
> on 8/22/01 9:57 AM, chameleon@i... wrote:
> > Torchon--100% wood, flourescent, L=95.11, Brightness=97.54
> > Concord Rag--mostly cotton, non-flourescent, L=93.83, B=80.25
> > Somerset E.--all cotton, slightly flourescent, L=95.93, B=93.06
> > and finally...
> > Museo--all cotton, non-flourescent, L=95.35, B=89.5 (SFA is made 
> > to these same L and B specs)
 
> Robert,
> Could you define fluorescence, and elaborate more on how it relates 
> to brightness, and lightness, and if relevant, stability.
> Appreciate your insight,
> Todd

Hopefully this answers Todd Flashner's and Martin Wesley's specific 
questions about OBAs.  The sentences in quotations are from Wilhelm's 
book The Permanence and Care of Color Photographs.  Sentences without 
quotes are further explanations.

"Flourescent brighteners absorb UV radiation, causing the OBAs to 
flouresce (emit light) in the visible region, especially in the blue 
and green portions of the spectrum.  If the illumination source 
contains no UV radiation, flourescent brighteners are not activated 
and the paper appears 'dull' or subtly lacking in brightness."--page 
469

" A drawback of fluorescent brighteners in...papers is that when 
these products are exposed to light and UV radiation over time, they 
gradually lose their ability to fluoresce--in effect, the fluorescent 
brightener "fades".  Thus, the paper gradually becomse faintly yellow 
and less bright in appearance."--page 469

"The UV component of a "standard" museum display illumination must be 
precisely defined--both for conservation reasons and because of the 
different visual effects various levels of UV radiation have on 
fluorescent brighteners.  Incandescent tungsten lamps emit a 
relatively small amount of of UV radiation and have less effect on 
OBAs in papers than daylight or fluorescent illumination.
...Glass-filtered quartz halogen lamps typically emit approximately 
twice as much UV radiation as incandescent lamps. Thus, the whites & 
lighter tones of prints made on papers with OBAs look noticeably 
brighter..."--page 604

This is not metamarism, but a similar kind of effect, where a print 
on a paper like Eclipse, German Etching, etc will look different 
under different light sources.

Regarding the "fading" aspect of OBAs, Wilhelm's book is now about 10 
years old.  We are aware that there are supposedly some lightfast 
OBAs available, but they are VERY EXPENSIVE.  Consequently, in my 
most humble opinion, i doubt if any art paper would use these.  THis 
is my opinion and if I am wrong, I would hope my competitors will 
contradict this, and elaborate on the specific OBA they use.

hope this helps somewhat,
robert rex

Hi Carl, Thanks for the Info,

I have tested the MIS variable tones in a south window using paul's curves for 2 months, and saw no changes
at all. I used the cool curve. The epson Archival paper will begin to turn a very slight cream color after
2 months, but the inks don't fade or shift. I figure that 2 months in a sunny window is good enough for me!
What paper do you usually use for your more expensive prints?

Jerry

>
> I have never tested a more archival color process than the MIS inks on rag paper.  I have never had a
> carbo print to place in the window but I will tell you that a coupler print or a cibachrome can not
> compare to the color longevity of the MIS on Somerset enhanced or concord rag. I use the old
> comparison test method of hanging prints in a southern window with a match print in the dark and
> compare them weekly. It is a simple but effective comparison test. We also are doing a delta e shift
> test but that requires a longer test period.
>
> As for hextone- The hextone inks from MIS are basically the black Archival ink in various dilutions.
> The best longevity combination we have found is on concord rag. Current testing is favorable and I
> would welcome a comparison to silver print longevity. I would venture that the shift would not be as
> noticable on hextones as color as the red(magenta) ink fades first...about two months in the south
> window makes a slight shift to cyan (VERY SLIGHT). has any one tested the MIS hextones along with a
> silver print. If you like Send me 2  test silver prints  archivally prepared (can be step wedges)  with
> full tonal range. I will prepare a MIS hextone and test them all together. If you do the test yourself
> please let me know the results.
>
> Best Wishes
> Carl Corey
> www.galleryprint.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., chameleon@i... wrote:
.......
 Brightness is not the same as 
> whiteness in paper tech talk.  Whiteness is measured on the "L" scale 
> of LAB, whereas brightness is a measure of reflectivity (how much 
> light is reflected off the paper). 

But Robert, isn't the L reading the "grayscale" component and not the color? 
Hence it is expressing the same thing as brightness in different terms (% light 
reflectance vs position on a grayscale). I would imagine that "whiteness" 
would need to take into account _color_ info not just light-to-dark. Color info is 
only contained in the "a" and "b" of Lab.

???

Antonis

Robert,

I have a couple of questions on the optical brightening agents (OBA). 
I understand that the ability to fluoresce is lost with exposure to 
light and once it stops fluorescing it will appear to have yellowed 
and look duller than it did originally.

Does this decay of the ability to fluoresce occur in dark storage?

As the OBA decays or after it has decayed, does it cause any adverse 
effect on the underlying paper? Increased acidity or anything else 
that would detract from the archival quality of the paper?

Any projections as to how long the OBA's will last or is this 
directly linked to exposure?

Thanks for all the good info.

Martin Wesley


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., chameleon@i... wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner 
<tflash@e...> 
> wrote:
> > on 8/22/01 9:57 AM, chameleon@i... wrote:
> > > Torchon--100% wood, flourescent, L=95.11, Brightness=97.54
> > > Concord Rag--mostly cotton, non-flourescent, L=93.83, B=80.25
> > > Somerset E.--all cotton, slightly flourescent, L=95.93, B=93.06
> > > and finally...
> > > Museo--all cotton, non-flourescent, L=95.35, B=89.5 (SFA is 
made 
> > > to these same L and B specs)
>  
> > Robert,
> > Could you define fluorescence, and elaborate more on how it 
relates 
> > to brightness, and lightness, and if relevant, stability.
> > Appreciate your insight,
> > Todd
> 
> Hopefully this answers Todd Flashner's and Martin Wesley's specific 
> questions about OBAs.  The sentences in quotations are from 
Wilhelm's 
> book The Permanence and Care of Color Photographs.  Sentences 
without 
> quotes are further explanations.
> 
> "Flourescent brighteners absorb UV radiation, causing the OBAs to 
> flouresce (emit light) in the visible region, especially in the 
blue 
> and green portions of the spectrum.  If the illumination source 
> contains no UV radiation, flourescent brighteners are not activated 
> and the paper appears 'dull' or subtly lacking in brightness."--
page 
> 469
> 
> " A drawback of fluorescent brighteners in...papers is that when 
> these products are exposed to light and UV radiation over time, 
they 
> gradually lose their ability to fluoresce--in effect, the 
fluorescent 
> brightener "fades".  Thus, the paper gradually becomse faintly 
yellow 
> and less bright in appearance."--page 469
> 
> "The UV component of a "standard" museum display illumination must 
be 
> precisely defined--both for conservation reasons and because of the 
> different visual effects various levels of UV radiation have on 
> fluorescent brighteners.  Incandescent tungsten lamps emit a 
> relatively small amount of of UV radiation and have less effect on 
> OBAs in papers than daylight or fluorescent illumination.
> ...Glass-filtered quartz halogen lamps typically emit approximately 
> twice as much UV radiation as incandescent lamps. Thus, the whites 
& 
> lighter tones of prints made on papers with OBAs look noticeably 
> brighter..."--page 604
> 
> This is not metamarism, but a similar kind of effect, where a print 
> on a paper like Eclipse, German Etching, etc will look different 
> under different light sources.
> 
> Regarding the "fading" aspect of OBAs, Wilhelm's book is now about 
10 
> years old.  We are aware that there are supposedly some lightfast 
> OBAs available, but they are VERY EXPENSIVE.  Consequently, in my 
> most humble opinion, i doubt if any art paper would use these.  
THis 

> is my opinion and if I am wrong, I would hope my competitors will 
> contradict this, and elaborate on the specific OBA they use.
> 
> hope this helps somewhat,
> robert rex

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Antonis Ricos" 
<antonisphoto@y...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., chameleon@i... wrote:
> >  Brightness is not the same as 
> > whiteness in paper tech talk.  Whiteness is measured on the "L" 
> > scale 
> > of LAB, whereas brightness is a measure of reflectivity (how much 
> > light is reflected off the paper). 

> But Robert, isn't the L reading the "grayscale" component and not 
> the color? 
> Hence it is expressing the same thing as brightness in different 
> terms (% light 
> reflectance vs position on a grayscale). I would imagine that
> "whiteness" 
> would need to take into account _color_ info not just light-to-
> dark. Color info is 
> only contained in the "a" and "b" of Lab.???
> Antonis

Antonis,
sorry for the delayed response.
you are right that "whiteness" needs to take into account ALL color 
info.  I really should have denoted L, A, and B numbers for the 
various papers i listed.  this is because "color" is a point on the 
grid, and the L reference is not helpful without the other two. i was 
just trying to be quick, but also sloppy.
i'll probably email you a little matrix/excel file that you could 
upload on the files portion of this list for future reference.

However, L is not a function of grayscale. L and Brightness are NOT 
the same thing.  L, with a and b as discussed above, describe the 
color in the 3d grid, whereas brightness is a function of 
reflectivity, and as previously mentioned is dependent on light 
source.

hope this answers your question,
RObert Rex

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Robert Rex" 
<chameleon@i...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Antonis Ricos" 
> <antonisphoto@y...> wrote:
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., chameleon@i... wrote:
> > >  Brightness is not the same as 
> > > whiteness in paper tech talk.  Whiteness is measured on the "L" 
> > > scale 
> > > of LAB, whereas brightness is a measure of reflectivity (how 
much 
> > > light is reflected off the paper). 
> 
> > But Robert, isn't the L reading the "grayscale" component and not 
> > the color? 
> > Hence it is expressing the same thing as brightness in different 
> > terms (% light 
> > reflectance vs position on a grayscale). I would imagine that
> > "whiteness" 
> > would need to take into account _color_ info not just light-to-
> > dark. Color info is 
> > only contained in the "a" and "b" of Lab.???
> > Antonis
> 
> Antonis,
> sorry for the delayed response.
> you are right that "whiteness" needs to take into account ALL color 
> info.  I really should have denoted L, A, and B numbers for the 
> various papers i listed.  this is because "color" is a point on the 
> grid, and the L reference is not helpful without the other two. i 
was 
> just trying to be quick, but also sloppy.
> i'll probably email you a little matrix/excel file that you could 
> upload on the files portion of this list for future reference.
> 
> However, L is not a function of grayscale. L and Brightness are NOT 
> the same thing.  L, with a and b as discussed above, describe the 
> color in the 3d grid, whereas brightness is a function of 
> reflectivity, and as previously mentioned is dependent on light 
> source.
> 
> hope this answers your question,
> RObert Rex

Antonis, Robert

Just to tag on an additional note. If there are optical brighteners 
present that are fluorescing, the amount of visible light coming off 
the surface is the reflected light plus the fluoresced light. You 
have UV falling on the print, which is not visible, and a portion of 
that energy is consumed by the brighteners and emitted in the visible 
spectrum. This should be detected by densitometers and spectrometers 
but will be dependent upon the UV content and intensity of the 
instruments' light sources.

Martin