Digital BW, The Print

John, 

Back last year when doing the ph testing of papers, I was curious about the ph of the inks themselves....but had no way of testing them.  

As the MIS inks are a mix of pigment and the "Epson liquid" (don't know what else to call it)....and that is "colorless" then they (or at least the colorless vehicle) should be testable (I would think).  

I am curious too.  

Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: John Brownlow 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 2:27 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] pH of quad inks


  On the Cone site is says that unlike some of their competitors, the Cone
  quad inks are alkaline (pH 9). It claims that other inks (without naming
  them) are acidic. Since this would clearly have archival implications, does
  anyone have some litmus paper around to check their MIS inks?
  -- 
  John Brownlow

  http://www.pinkheadedbug.com


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 3/28/02 4:16 PM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

>> On the Cone site is says that unlike some of their competitors, the Cone
>> quad inks are alkaline (pH 9). It claims that other inks (without naming
>> them) are acidic. Since this would clearly have archival implications, does
>> anyone have some litmus paper around to check their MIS inks?
> 
> Lyson inks (and various private label Lyson inks) are the acidic ones, as
> far as I know.  MIS, Generations, and Piezo, for example, have always been
> said to be compatible with Epson inks, and thus not need flushing before
> changing inks.  Lyson, on the other hand, due to the pH difference, is said
> to require a good flushing out of the old inks before one changes between
> Lyson and one of the others.

Thanks -- that makes sense. Acid + Alkali = H20 + (potentially) precipitate.

Yuk.
-- 
John Brownlow

http://www.pinkheadedbug.com

John,

You wrote:

>On the Cone site is says that unlike some of their competitors, the Cone
>quad inks are alkaline (pH 9). It claims that other inks (without naming
>them) are acidic. Since this would clearly have archival implications, does
>anyone have some litmus paper around to check their MIS inks?

Lyson inks (and various private label Lyson inks) are the acidic ones, as
far as I know.  MIS, Generations, and Piezo, for example, have always been
said to be compatible with Epson inks, and thus not need flushing before
changing inks.  Lyson, on the other hand, due to the pH difference, is said
to require a good flushing out of the old inks before one changes between
Lyson and one of the others.

Paul

Todd, 

I read your argument below...and I read Cone's statement (the quoted clip) carefully (as you suggest) and I most soundly disagree with you on the statements you make below.  

Perhaps the difference in our opinion is the starting point opinions/experiences of the reader  (wink).  

I have read too much on this forum and the old days of the PiezoBW forum to know that many people were having metamerism problems with Lyson, Epson and MIS inks.  While I did not use those inks myself, the numerous examples/statements from many people and the articles in the press would lead one to believe that those inks did produce prints that showed marked metamerism....of course one cannot always believe what one reads.  

In short, I think what Cone wrote does apply to the problems of metamerism seen in inks from other manufacturers....and I also think it is true to say that PiezoBW inks do not exhibit metamerism to the extent that other inks have.  Over the last year I read many accounts of people seeing metamerism from the other products from Epson MIS and Lyson.  I also read many statements (and I posted a few myself) that the PiezoBW prints I make do not show this metamerism to any noticeable degree.  

As for the ph of the inks themselves....I believe this is a valid point on Cone's part too.  I am producing prints that I want to last for many generations (if possible) and am always concerned about the archival properties of my materials.  This is the primary reason I use 100% rag cotton papers (acid-free) and "acid-free" mounting materials (mat board, adhesives...or no adhesives, mylar, pigment pens for signing prints, etc..).  I carefully look for "acid free" as a quality of the materials.  And I have extensively tested the papers I use for acid characteristics, and disqualified several popular papers due to ph test results (found somewhere on this forum in the files section I believe).  

So...if one ink is known to be acid...and another ink is non-acid (alkaline) then I am able to make a better informed decision to use the "acid-free" materials (inks) that I prefer.  I believe that as a manufacturer/distributor they (IJM or Cone) has the right to use the characteristics of their product as a selling feature.  I would.  

Introducing acid into the prints is not something I want to do.  Based on that goal of avoiding materials that would be acidic....I will continue to use materials I know to be acid-free and avoid the ones that are acidic.  

Of course that longevity is just one of my personal goals.  Some people just want to make a nice looking print and don't care about the quality of the papers or the longevity issues or the archival properties etc...And, before this last statement leads you or anyone to want to debate "archival" or "longevity" or stuff like that....I must simply say that: 

 "plenty of stuff has already been written on these issues.....so go read the archives."  (grin)  

As for your statement of comparing "apples to oranges,"  I do agree with you but in a completely different way.  I believe the inks, while inks, are so different that it is comparing apples to oranges to say that one is the same as the other.  That is why I continue to use PiezoBW inks (successfully I might add).  Now knowing that the inks themselves are not "acid" is just another benefit of using the PiezoBW inks (as I see it).  

Good luck printing,   (and Todd, you know I like you so this is not a personal attack on you)

Steadman  

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Todd Flashner 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 12:28 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] pH of quad inks



  > The Cone site implies that MIS inks might have a higher pH and are more
  > prone to Metamerism:
  > 
  > From the Cone site:
  > 
  > "PiezographyTinks are not subject to the metamerism found in dye based
  > inks nor dye/pigment inks. Metamerism is the tendency for an ink system
  > to appear different under varying light conditions. For example,
  > PiezographyT prints do not change dramatically under tungsten,
  > fluorescent and incandescent light sources. The same can not be said for
  > ink systems produced by EPSON, LYSON, MIS and others. Additionally, our
  > inks have a pH basic rating of 9 which makes them EPSON compatible.
  > Competing inks are often acidic."

  I don't mean to bash Cone or try to bolster any of the companies he tries to
  impugn, but I think a broad statement like this needs to be read very
  carefully and deconstructed.

  First off, this snippet was taken from the PiezoBW blurb. I think it's
  specious of Jon to imply that HIS inks should perform better than
  dye/pigment inks when he's admitted that the PiezoBW inks THEMSELVES are
  dye/pigment.

  Furthermore, unless Jon knows something we don't, Epson does not yet sell a
  Quad ink, so I don't know what he's comparing to of their line; and Epson's
  most metameric product is their encapsulated pigments which have no dye.

  All in all I believe Cone is not comparing apples to oranges, and the whole
  statement is a squishy mess.

  Lastly, inks, in a usable sense, not a quantum mechanical sense ;-), will
  only be as archival as the papers/coatings they are used on. Until we know
  what pH a given paper/coating is optimized for I wouldn't pay much attention
  to the pH of the ink that is put on it. (Pity Harvey's not here to call
  foolish for saying as much ;-))

  Todd


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Todd, 
> 
> I read your argument below...and I read Cone's statement (the quoted clip)
> carefully (as you suggest) and I most soundly disagree with you on the
> statements you make below.

Really? I'm shocked? ;-)
 
> Perhaps the difference in our opinion is the starting point
> opinions/experiences of the reader  (wink).

Indubitably.  
 
> I have read too much on this forum and the old days of the PiezoBW forum to
> know that many people were having metamerism problems with Lyson, Epson and
> MIS inks.  While I did not use those inks myself, the numerous
> examples/statements from many people and the articles in the press would lead
> one to believe that those inks did produce prints that showed marked
> metamerism....of course one cannot always believe what one reads.
 
> In short, I think what Cone wrote does apply to the problems of metamerism
> seen in inks from other manufacturers....and I also think it is true to say
> that PiezoBW inks do not exhibit metamerism to the extent that other inks
> have.  Over the last year I read many accounts of people seeing metamerism
> from the other products from Epson MIS and Lyson.  I also read many statements
> (and I posted a few myself) that the PiezoBW prints I make do not show this
> metamerism to any noticeable degree.

Okay, point taken. I guess what I take issue with is his lumping of all the
competitors, and by virtue of vagueness, all their products together. It has
his product appear to stand apart from all competitors products, when we
know there is at least one product that is very competitive with his. But
Jon is a very clever marketer, and that is his prerogative.

I do still feel he is comparing apples to oranges though, by comparing his
quads to color inks (i.e. Epson), but again, he is entitled to do that.
However, I do still contend it's specious of him to imply his inks are other
than a dye/pigment blend when he's admitted they are just that.

Perhaps my issue is really with the interpretation of the person who's post
I was responding to. He said:

>> The Cone site implies that MIS inks might have a higher pH and are more
>> prone to Metamerism:

I take his MISunderstandin as evidence of how easy Jon's wording is to be
MISconstrued... (wINK).

> 
> As for the ph of the inks themselves....I believe this is a valid point on
> Cone's part too.  I am producing prints that I want to last for many
> generations (if possible) and am always concerned about the archival
> properties of my materials.  This is the primary reason I use 100% rag cotton
> papers (acid-free) and "acid-free" mounting materials (mat board,
> adhesives...or no adhesives, mylar, pigment pens for signing prints, etc..).
> I carefully look for "acid free" as a quality of the materials.  And I have
> extensively tested the papers I use for acid characteristics, and disqualified
> several popular papers due to ph test results (found somewhere on this forum
> in the files section I believe).
> 
> So...if one ink is known to be acid...and another ink is non-acid (alkaline)
> then I am able to make a better informed decision to use the "acid-free"
> materials (inks) that I prefer.  I believe that as a manufacturer/distributor
> they (IJM or Cone) has the right to use the characteristics of their product
> as a selling feature.  I would.

Again, it's the way he seemingly positioned his product in opposition to all
others in that regard, when most of them likely have a similar pH as his,
(based upon their compatibility).

> Good luck printing,   (and Todd, you know I like you so this is not a personal
> attack on you)

Either way Steadly... In all my time on these lists I've never felt attacked
by anyone (bless you all, for I know I deserve less). There is no harm is
debating something vigorously. But I welcome your attacks too. Love ya man.
;-)

Todd

>> The Cone site implies that MIS inks might have a higher pH and are more
>> prone to Metamerism:
>> 
>> From the Cone site:
>> 
>> "PiezographyTinks are not subject to the metamerism found in dye based
>> inks nor dye/pigment inks. Metamerism is the tendency for an ink system
>> to appear different under varying light conditions. For example,
>> PiezographyT prints do not change dramatically under tungsten,
>> fluorescent and incandescent light sources. The same can not be said for
>> ink systems produced by EPSON, LYSON, MIS and others. Additionally, our
>> inks have a pH basic rating of 9 which makes them EPSON compatible.
>> Competing inks are often acidic."
> 
> I don't mean to bash Cone or try to bolster any of the companies he tries to
> impugn, but I think a broad statement like this needs to be read very
> carefully and deconstructed.
> 
> First off, this snippet was taken from the PiezoBW blurb. I think it's
> specious of Jon to imply that HIS inks should perform better than
> dye/pigment inks when he's admitted that the PiezoBW inks THEMSELVES are
> dye/pigment.
> 
> Furthermore, unless Jon knows something we don't, Epson does not yet sell a
> Quad ink, so I don't know what he's comparing to of their line; and Epson's
> most metameric product is their encapsulated pigments which have no dye.
> 
> All in all I believe Cone is not comparing apples to oranges, and the whole
> statement is a squishy mess.
> 
> Lastly, inks, in a usable sense, not a quantum mechanical sense ;-), will
> only be as archival as the papers/coatings they are used on. Until we know
> what pH a given paper/coating is optimized for I wouldn't pay much attention
> to the pH of the ink that is put on it. (Pity Harvey's not here to call
> foolish for saying as much ;-))
> 
> Todd
> 
> 
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