Digital BW, The Print

Roger,

In general I agree with your thoughts. I found my way to the Zone System via
Fred Picker's book before I picked up the Adams trilogy. Fred always seemed
to come up with terribly outrageous statements intermixed with gems of
simple wisdom. I can't say that I would recommend his writings to anyone at
this point but he did say one thing that has stuck with me.

Find someone whose prints you really like and then find out how they do it.

It is in the "how they do it" part that we can't help but get embroiled in
technical "discussions". I went from Picker, to Adams, to using a
densitometer and on to doing some very extensive film, development and paper
testing. I certainly do not see that as a necessity to producing great art
but at the same time I do feel that I benefited a great deal by increasing
my understanding of how it all worked. In the end this let me step back from
a strict application of the Zone System to my own way of working that is
Zone based but a bit more intuitive. Maybe it was just all the practice.

I do have to point out that if no one was measuring printouts of step
tablets there would be no curves, no drivers and no workflows for us to
print with. It can also be extremely helpful in figuring out what is going
wrong when you hit a problem.

This is a very new technology compared to photography as a whole and the
scope of the technical issues is much greater. It is going to take us awhile
to determine which of those issues are critical and which we can safely
ignore.

We have to keep in mind that even though me may have mastered conventional
photographic printing this is a whole new ballgame and there are no real
experts yet. The technology needs to settle a bit and we need to put in the
practice time with these new digital tools.

Martin Wesley

----- Original Message -----
From: "rlsopher" <rlsopher@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 11:53 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Random Thoughts


> Not to be a complete nihilist and fun as it is to become embroiled
> in technical arguments, they really don't, to my view, address the
> final result which is to produce a print that "says something."
>
> Fred Picker used to make the point that to make a great print you
> had to see it as it was going to hang on the wall about the time you
> snapped the shutter. He taught technique just so far as to give one
> the tools to produce a good print of archival quality and spent most
> of the time in his workshops trying to teach people to see, a far
> more difficult task than learning how to develop and print. In my
> experience there are far more good printers than good photographers.
>
>
> Seems to me that thanks to a few noble souls digital B&W is
> approaching, perhaps now equalling, good silver prints and the tools
> are now there to be used. The tools have to be mastered to be sure
> but measuring the density of innumerable step wedges isn't going to
> produce a single memorable image. Somethimes I wonder if having the
> ability to modify so many parameters compared to wet printing we
> wander in the trees and have lost the forest.
>
> Roger
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

I know this is a little off topic, but tied in, nonetheless.

Fred Picker passed away today. The announcement was made over in the
large format users' group forum:

http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=008dPB

I thought those who learned their skills from Fred, whether in person or
through his books, enlargers, cameras, light meters, etc. would want to
know.

God rest his soul.

Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...] 
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 11:14 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Random Thoughts


Roger,

In general I agree with your thoughts. I found my way to the Zone System
via Fred Picker's book before I picked up the Adams trilogy. Fred always
seemed to come up with terribly outrageous statements intermixed with
gems of simple wisdom. I can't say that I would recommend his writings
to anyone at this point but he did say one thing that has stuck with me.

Find someone whose prints you really like and then find out how they do
it.

It is in the "how they do it" part that we can't help but get embroiled
in technical "discussions". I went from Picker, to Adams, to using a
densitometer and on to doing some very extensive film, development and
paper testing. I certainly do not see that as a necessity to producing
great art but at the same time I do feel that I benefited a great deal
by increasing my understanding of how it all worked. In the end this let
me step back from a strict application of the Zone System to my own way
of working that is Zone based but a bit more intuitive. Maybe it was
just all the practice.

I do have to point out that if no one was measuring printouts of step
tablets there would be no curves, no drivers and no workflows for us to
print with. It can also be extremely helpful in figuring out what is
going wrong when you hit a problem.

This is a very new technology compared to photography as a whole and the
scope of the technical issues is much greater. It is going to take us
awhile to determine which of those issues are critical and which we can
safely ignore.

We have to keep in mind that even though me may have mastered
conventional photographic printing this is a whole new ballgame and
there are no real experts yet. The technology needs to settle a bit and
we need to put in the practice time with these new digital tools.

Martin Wesley

----- Original Message -----
From: "rlsopher" <rlsopher@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 11:53 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Random Thoughts


> Not to be a complete nihilist and fun as it is to become embroiled in 
> technical arguments, they really don't, to my view, address the final 
> result which is to produce a print that "says something."
>
> Fred Picker used to make the point that to make a great print you had 
> to see it as it was going to hang on the wall about the time you 
> snapped the shutter. He taught technique just so far as to give one 
> the tools to produce a good print of archival quality and spent most 
> of the time in his workshops trying to teach people to see, a far more

> difficult task than learning how to develop and print. In my 
> experience there are far more good printers than good photographers.
>
>
> Seems to me that thanks to a few noble souls digital B&W is 
> approaching, perhaps now equalling, good silver prints and the tools 
> are now there to be used. The tools have to be mastered to be sure but

> measuring the density of innumerable step wedges isn't going to 
> produce a single memorable image. Somethimes I wonder if having the 
> ability to modify so many parameters compared to wet printing we 
> wander in the trees and have lost the forest.
>
> Roger
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls 
> and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
> header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
various
resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>




Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- Include your full name with your message.
- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
- Complete your Yahoo profile.
- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage. 


 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Andy,

Thanks for letting us know. His name came up today in a post and my reply. I
was wondering what had become of him after he sold Zone VI to Calumet. His
book got me going in the right direction. I don't even know how many of his
great products I have but it is a fair number. A man of strong opinions.
Sometimes irritating, frequently insightful and ever dedicated to improving
the art and the craft of B&W photography.

I hope that someone will mount a retrospective of his work, as that would be
a most fitting tribute.

Martin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Biggs" <abiggs@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 11:20 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Random Thoughts


> I know this is a little off topic, but tied in, nonetheless.
>
> Fred Picker passed away today. The announcement was made over in the
> large format users' group forum:
>
> http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=008dPB
>
> I thought those who learned their skills from Fred, whether in person or
> through his books, enlargers, cameras, light meters, etc. would want to
> know.
>
> God rest his soul.
>
> Andy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
> Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 11:14 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Random Thoughts
>
>
> Roger,
>
> In general I agree with your thoughts. I found my way to the Zone System
> via Fred Picker's book before I picked up the Adams trilogy. Fred always
> seemed to come up with terribly outrageous statements intermixed with
> gems of simple wisdom. I can't say that I would recommend his writings
> to anyone at this point but he did say one thing that has stuck with me.
>
> Find someone whose prints you really like and then find out how they do
> it.
>
> It is in the "how they do it" part that we can't help but get embroiled
> in technical "discussions". I went from Picker, to Adams, to using a
> densitometer and on to doing some very extensive film, development and
> paper testing. I certainly do not see that as a necessity to producing
> great art but at the same time I do feel that I benefited a great deal
> by increasing my understanding of how it all worked. In the end this let
> me step back from a strict application of the Zone System to my own way
> of working that is Zone based but a bit more intuitive. Maybe it was
> just all the practice.
>
> I do have to point out that if no one was measuring printouts of step
> tablets there would be no curves, no drivers and no workflows for us to
> print with. It can also be extremely helpful in figuring out what is
> going wrong when you hit a problem.
>
> This is a very new technology compared to photography as a whole and the
> scope of the technical issues is much greater. It is going to take us
> awhile to determine which of those issues are critical and which we can
> safely ignore.
>
> We have to keep in mind that even though me may have mastered
> conventional photographic printing this is a whole new ballgame and
> there are no real experts yet. The technology needs to settle a bit and
> we need to put in the practice time with these new digital tools.
>
> Martin Wesley
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "rlsopher" <rlsopher@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 11:53 AM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Random Thoughts
>
>
> > Not to be a complete nihilist and fun as it is to become embroiled in
> > technical arguments, they really don't, to my view, address the final
> > result which is to produce a print that "says something."
> >
> > Fred Picker used to make the point that to make a great print you had
> > to see it as it was going to hang on the wall about the time you
> > snapped the shutter. He taught technique just so far as to give one
> > the tools to produce a good print of archival quality and spent most
> > of the time in his workshops trying to teach people to see, a far more
>
> > difficult task than learning how to develop and print. In my
> > experience there are far more good printers than good photographers.
> >
> >
> > Seems to me that thanks to a few noble souls digital B&W is
> > approaching, perhaps now equalling, good silver prints and the tools
> > are now there to be used. The tools have to be mastered to be sure but
>
> > measuring the density of innumerable step wedges isn't going to
> > produce a single memorable image. Somethimes I wonder if having the
> > ability to modify so many parameters compared to wet printing we
> > wander in the trees and have lost the forest.
> >
> > Roger
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
> > and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> > keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> > header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Martin-

When I think of Fred, yes, I think of sometimes polarizing views. I
chuckle when I think of his saying that 'you cannot shoot pictures of
cows or of covered bridges. They have all been taken too many times".
Only from Fred. Only from Fred. He taught us the intricacies of tones
and the zone system, and then told us what we could and could not take
pictures of.

Laughing out loud. Lord, take Fred and take care of him. Just don't piss
him off.

Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...] 
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 11:53 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Random Thoughts


Andy,

Thanks for letting us know. His name came up today in a post and my
reply. I was wondering what had become of him after he sold Zone VI to
Calumet. His book got me going in the right direction. I don't even know
how many of his great products I have but it is a fair number. A man of
strong opinions. Sometimes irritating, frequently insightful and ever
dedicated to improving the art and the craft of B&W photography.

I hope that someone will mount a retrospective of his work, as that
would be a most fitting tribute.

Martin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Biggs" <abiggs@tvmcapital.com>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 11:20 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Random Thoughts


> I know this is a little off topic, but tied in, nonetheless.
>
> Fred Picker passed away today. The announcement was made over in the 
> large format users' group forum:
>
> http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=008dPB
>
> I thought those who learned their skills from Fred, whether in person 
> or through his books, enlargers, cameras, light meters, etc. would 
> want to know.
>
> God rest his soul.
>
> Andy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
> Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 11:14 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Random Thoughts
>
>
> Roger,
>
> In general I agree with your thoughts. I found my way to the Zone 
> System via Fred Picker's book before I picked up the Adams trilogy. 
> Fred always seemed to come up with terribly outrageous statements 
> intermixed with gems of simple wisdom. I can't say that I would 
> recommend his writings to anyone at this point but he did say one 
> thing that has stuck with me.
>
> Find someone whose prints you really like and then find out how they 
> do it.
>
> It is in the "how they do it" part that we can't help but get 
> embroiled in technical "discussions". I went from Picker, to Adams, to

> using a densitometer and on to doing some very extensive film, 
> development and paper testing. I certainly do not see that as a 
> necessity to producing great art but at the same time I do feel that I

> benefited a great deal by increasing my understanding of how it all 
> worked. In the end this let me step back from a strict application of 
> the Zone System to my own way of working that is Zone based but a bit 
> more intuitive. Maybe it was just all the practice.
>
> I do have to point out that if no one was measuring printouts of step 
> tablets there would be no curves, no drivers and no workflows for us 
> to print with. It can also be extremely helpful in figuring out what 
> is going wrong when you hit a problem.
>
> This is a very new technology compared to photography as a whole and 
> the scope of the technical issues is much greater. It is going to take

> us awhile to determine which of those issues are critical and which we

> can safely ignore.
>
> We have to keep in mind that even though me may have mastered 
> conventional photographic printing this is a whole new ballgame and 
> there are no real experts yet. The technology needs to settle a bit 
> and we need to put in the practice time with these new digital tools.
>
> Martin Wesley
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "rlsopher" <rlsopher@comcast.net>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 11:53 AM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Random Thoughts
>
>
> > Not to be a complete nihilist and fun as it is to become embroiled 
> > in technical arguments, they really don't, to my view, address the 
> > final result which is to produce a print that "says something."
> >
> > Fred Picker used to make the point that to make a great print you 
> > had to see it as it was going to hang on the wall about the time you

> > snapped the shutter. He taught technique just so far as to give one 
> > the tools to produce a good print of archival quality and spent most

> > of the time in his workshops trying to teach people to see, a far 
> > more
>
> > difficult task than learning how to develop and print. In my 
> > experience there are far more good printers than good photographers.
> >
> >
> > Seems to me that thanks to a few noble souls digital B&W is 
> > approaching, perhaps now equalling, good silver prints and the tools

> > are now there to be used. The tools have to be mastered to be sure 
> > but
>
> > measuring the density of innumerable step wedges isn't going to 
> > produce a single memorable image. Somethimes I wonder if having the 
> > ability to modify so many parameters compared to wet printing we 
> > wander in the trees and have lost the forest.
> >
> > Roger
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls

> > and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
> > to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
> > header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls 
> and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
> header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
> various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls 
> and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
> header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
various
resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>




Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- Include your full name with your message.
- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
- Complete your Yahoo profile.
- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage. 


 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Is anyone using the new Canon Printers? I am new to the group and was
considering either the S900 or S9000.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.


Shelby Smith
shelbysmith@...

Martin,

I think that this is the key. One who has mastered his craft can express his
vision and not get bogged down and frustrated by the inability to tecnicall
express what he sees.

Many of us learned the Zone system when we were in the early years of out
photographic careers, some in the middle and still some late or never. Those
that did master the craft of building a negative and understand the
relationship of how it will print became efficient and hopefully competent
printers.

I think that when people say that it is the art that counts, the image is
everything, this is only somewhat true. Without the ability to competently
express that vision and make a fine print, the best image will suffer. On
the other hand, we all agree that a technically perfect but boring print
will never be a great image just because it was printed wonderfully.

Still again, some people say we should get out more and shoot more instead
of spending so much time discussing digital techniques and printing 21 step
wedges. Well, that is only partially true. I encourage all those starting
out in photography to shoot atleast 1 roll of film a day. To have their
camera with them at all times. Make lots of photographs and learn from the
process. In the begining you will have lots of awful images, but as time
goes on they will improve as your vision improves.

Many of us with a great amount of experience shoot in spirts. We may spend
10-15 days in a row shooting and print for the next 4 or 6 months. I think
it is rare to find a fine art photographer that shoots everyday or several
times a week. I would say that I shoot 2-3 days a month on a good month. I
must be motivated and be "in the zone". When I am, I tend to be very
productive and seem to be able to capture my vision. Yet, I can easily shoot
20 sheets of film and get that 1 special greatest hit. This is the process
that I have found that works for me. I need time for my creative side to
build up a vision. Currently I am working on 4 dieeferent projects. I move
from project to project depending on how I feel and how the wind blows.
(Sometimes literally if shooting in the Big Cypress as less wind is better).

So to those that say shoot more and print less setp wedges, if that works
for you.....then by all means go for it!

Happy shooting and printing....

Mike


Martin wrote:
> In the end this let me step back from
> a strict application of the Zone System to my own way of working that is
> Zone based but a bit more intuitive. Maybe it was just all the practice.

<snippity do dah!>

> We have to keep in mind that even though me may have mastered conventional
> photographic printing this is a whole new ballgame and there are no real
> experts yet. The technology needs to settle a bit and we need to put in
the

> practice time with these new digital tools.
>
> Martin Wesley

Art needs gestation time to develop and craft needs nutrients to grow.
t

> From: "Michael Kravit" <michael.kravit@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 17:27:53 -0500
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Random Thoughts
> 
> Martin,
> 
> I think that this is the key. One who has mastered his craft can express his
> vision and not get bogged down and frustrated by the inability to tecnicall
> express what he sees.
> 
> Many of us learned the Zone system when we were in the early years of out
> photographic careers, some in the middle and still some late or never. Those
> that did master the craft of building a negative and understand the
> relationship of how it will print became efficient and hopefully competent
> printers.
> 
> I think that when people say that it is the art that counts, the image is
> everything, this is only somewhat true. Without the ability to competently
> express that vision and make a fine print, the best image will suffer. On
> the other hand, we all agree that a technically perfect but boring print
> will never be a great image just because it was printed wonderfully.
> 
> Still again, some people say we should get out more and shoot more instead
> of spending so much time discussing digital techniques and printing 21 step
> wedges. Well, that is only partially true. I encourage all those starting
> out in photography to shoot atleast 1 roll of film a day. To have their
> camera with them at all times. Make lots of photographs and learn from the
> process. In the begining you will have lots of awful images, but as time
> goes on they will improve as your vision improves.
> 
> Many of us with a great amount of experience shoot in spirts. We may spend
> 10-15 days in a row shooting and print for the next 4 or 6 months. I think
> it is rare to find a fine art photographer that shoots everyday or several
> times a week. I would say that I shoot 2-3 days a month on a good month. I
> must be motivated and be "in the zone". When I am, I tend to be very
> productive and seem to be able to capture my vision. Yet, I can easily shoot
> 20 sheets of film and get that 1 special greatest hit. This is the process
> that I have found that works for me. I need time for my creative side to
> build up a vision. Currently I am working on 4 dieeferent projects. I move
> from project to project depending on how I feel and how the wind blows.
> (Sometimes literally if shooting in the Big Cypress as less wind is better).
> 
> So to those that say shoot more and print less setp wedges, if that works
> for you.....then by all means go for it!
> 
> Happy shooting and printing....
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> Martin wrote:
>> In the end this let me step back from
>> a strict application of the Zone System to my own way of working that is
>> Zone based but a bit more intuitive. Maybe it was just all the practice.
> 
> <snippity do dah!>
> 
>> We have to keep in mind that even though me may have mastered conventional
>> photographic printing this is a whole new ballgame and there are no real
>> experts yet. The technology needs to settle a bit and we need to put in
> the
>> practice time with these new digital tools.
>> 
>> Martin Wesley
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

At 04:14 PM 4/6/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>Art needs gestation time to develop and craft needs nutrients to grow.
>t
>
>> From: "Michael Kravit" <michael.kravit@...>
>> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>> Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 17:27:53 -0500
>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Random Thoughts
>> 
>> Martin,
>> 
>> I think that this is the key. One who has mastered his craft can express his
>> vision and not get bogged down and frustrated by the inability to tecnicall
>> express what he sees.
>> 
>> Many of us learned the Zone system when we were in the early years of out
>> photographic careers, some in the middle and still some late or never. Those
>> that did master the craft of building a negative and understand the
>> relationship of how it will print became efficient and hopefully competent
>> printers.
>> 
>> I think that when people say that it is the art that counts, the image is
>> everything, this is only somewhat true. Without the ability to competently
>> express that vision and make a fine print, the best image will suffer. On
>> the other hand, we all agree that a technically perfect but boring print
>> will never be a great image just because it was printed wonderfully.
>> 
>> Still again, some people say we should get out more and shoot more instead
>> of spending so much time discussing digital techniques and printing 21 step
>> wedges. Well, that is only partially true. I encourage all those starting
>> out in photography to shoot atleast 1 roll of film a day. To have their
>> camera with them at all times. Make lots of photographs and learn from the
>> process. In the begining you will have lots of awful images, but as time
>> goes on they will improve as your vision improves.
>> 
>> Many of us with a great amount of experience shoot in spirts. We may spend
>> 10-15 days in a row shooting and print for the next 4 or 6 months. I think
>> it is rare to find a fine art photographer that shoots everyday or several
>> times a week. I would say that I shoot 2-3 days a month on a good month. I
>> must be motivated and be "in the zone". When I am, I tend to be very
>> productive and seem to be able to capture my vision. Yet, I can easily shoot
>> 20 sheets of film and get that 1 special greatest hit. This is the process
>> that I have found that works for me. I need time for my creative side to
>> build up a vision. Currently I am working on 4 dieeferent projects. I move
>> from project to project depending on how I feel and how the wind blows.
>> (Sometimes literally if shooting in the Big Cypress as less wind is better).
>> 
>> So to those that say shoot more and print less setp wedges, if that works
>> for you.....then by all means go for it!
>> 
>> Happy shooting and printing....
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> 
>> Martin wrote:
>>> In the end this let me step back from
>>> a strict application of the Zone System to my own way of working that is
>>> Zone based but a bit more intuitive. Maybe it was just all the practice.
>> 
>> <snippity do dah!>
>> 


 When I studied photography long ago and far away the deal was you learn
some basic stuff - it ain't brain surgery - and get down to seeing and
thinking about art, imagination, and life in general. It was understood that
the tech stuff would be dealt with if and when you had the need for it. You
can kick an image into life from a pretty conventionally-made negative. 
I know too many photographers who are still looking for the next piece of
equipment or sneaky lab trick that will do it for them. Their vision is
somewhere in early 20th C. Modernist mode. Decoupage or needlepoint would be
more demanding on the imagination. 

AZ
Maker of Lookaround panoramic camera.
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Gallery/8874/
         or
keyword.com lookaround

I'm leaning towards picking up a Canon printer for doing color work 
primarily for its speed (as much as 5-7x faster than a 1280 with 
equal quality), individual tanks, and user replaceable printhead.

I'm leaning this way because the Epson I had intended to start 
running with MIS quads has been exhibiting problems with random black 
lines in the printout.  From what I can gather online (and advice to 
the contrary would be welcome) this means that the printhead is kaput.

So, I may be getting a Canon to do my black and white as well.  I 
appreciate the idea of a replaceable printhead as this is not the 
first problem I've had with Epsons.  My question is this, anyone out 
there using a Canon for black and white?  Might I be the first in 
these uncharted waters?  Anyone want to chip in and get Paul Roark a 
setup so he can create his much admired curves for these printers?

Thanks

Gabriel Regalbuto

It happens that I plan to buy a Canon S900 tomorrow, mainly for color
and ordinary jobs. It's a dedicated photo printer, so not really top
notch for text but OK. I have been researching for a long time what to
buy. Since it seems no printer is right for B/W and color **(without
cleaning, flushing etc.) I decided to buy 'something' for color, A4 size
OK,  and plan to take a 1290 (=1280) for B/W, with a dedicated B/W
system. C80 very cheap now, but too many reviews talk disappointing,
Epson 895 (785 in the US, I believe) is also cheap now (new model
released, the 915), 925 also new but bad reviews, 950 interesting
(prints CD/DVD) but expensive. But I can buy a Canon S900 for $249 here,
raving reviews, individual cartridges (as opposed to Epson 895/915).
Seems to be ink-friendly (in terms of economics).
Normal price here is $380 (excl. VAT), if I hadn't this good price of
249, I would have taken the Canon S750 or S520. Not really photo
printers but more than OK, plus better in text than the S900 (although
some reviews also are positive on the latter in this respect). 

**except maybe the Epson 2100/2200, that's why I just asked the list
about it....

FWIW, and if someone has strong arguments NOT to buy this Canon, speak
up please...
Ton Guiking

Hi Tom,

I use a Canon S9000 as a color printer for dye based inks. I switched to Lyson's Fotonic inks because they have a bit better gamut and possibly better color stability and have been very satisfied with the system. In the six months I have had it it hasn't glitched once. I have an Epson 860 I use for B&W that I was able to buy new and cheap on ebay. 

Roger

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Ton Guiking [mailto:guiking@...]
  Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 2:19 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Canon Printers


  It happens that I plan to buy a Canon S900 tomorrow, mainly for color
  and ordinary jobs. It's a dedicated photo printer, so not really top
  notch for text but OK. I have been researching for a long time what to
  buy. Since it seems no printer is right for B/W and color **(without
  cleaning, flushing etc.) I decided to buy 'something' for color, A4 size
  OK,  and plan to take a 1290 (=1280) for B/W, with a dedicated B/W
  system. C80 very cheap now, but too many reviews talk disappointing,
  Epson 895 (785 in the US, I believe) is also cheap now (new model
  released, the 915), 925 also new but bad reviews, 950 interesting
  (prints CD/DVD) but expensive. But I can buy a Canon S900 for $249 here,
  raving reviews, individual cartridges (as opposed to Epson 895/915).
  Seems to be ink-friendly (in terms of economics).
  Normal price here is $380 (excl. VAT), if I hadn't this good price of
  249, I would have taken the Canon S750 or S520. Not really photo
  printers but more than OK, plus better in text than the S900 (although
  some reviews also are positive on the latter in this respect). 

  **except maybe the Epson 2100/2200, that's why I just asked the list
  about it....

  FWIW, and if someone has strong arguments NOT to buy this Canon, speak
  up please...
  Ton Guiking



        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
              
       
       

  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well, I'm using a 9000 for B&W output and am quite pleased with the 
results.  One of the prints that I frequently show around (read: brag on) 
was taken at Biltmore House this summer, in Asheville, NC, and my comment 
to people is that it's the best print that I've ever made over the 30+ 
years that I've been doing B&W printing.  I've been using Canon's inks, but 
just bought a set of refillable cartridges and bulk ink (from 
inkjetgoodies) to try to cut the cost down.  I expect to do 300-500 prints 
for Christmas books I make for relatives, and the difference between $2 and 
$11 per cartridge will add up very quickly.  Not to mention that there have 
been times when my local photo store was out of a particular Canon 
cartridge for a week or so.

The speed of the Canon is indeed wonderful.  I was using an Epson 860 with 
Lyson Small Gamut inks for B&W, but it took about 10-11 minutes for that 
machine to produce an 8x10 or so sized print.  The Canon does it in about 2 
minutes, and with quality at least equal to the Epson.  I am able to 
control image tone with the Canon inks in the same way as with the Small 
Gamut - using the Colorize feature of Photoshop and adjusting hue and 
saturation to get the tone I want.

Part of my buying decision for the Canon printer was the fact of the 
replaceable printhead.  I had envisioned being able to have a separate 
printhead loaded with Lyson Small Gamut (whenever they come out with the 
Canon 9000 version) and keep the Canon inks for the little bit of color 
work I do.  But when I called Canon to get a second head I was told that 
the printhead was a warranty repair item and that they would not sell it 
except as part of a factory repair.  My store got the same answer when they 
called independently to see if they could order one.  I have the impression 
that this policy will change after the printer has been on the market for a 
year.  OTOH, I seem to be getting wonderful results with the Canon inks, 
and if the generics produce equal results with my Christmas prints I may 
just stick with them.  I may end up getting a spare printhead once (if) 
they become available, just to be able to keep working if the original 
craps out, but they supposedly (will) cost $175, so then again I may not.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Kip

At 10/10/2002 07:56 PM +0000, Gabriel wrote:

>I'm leaning towards picking up a Canon printer for doing color work
>primarily for its speed (as much as 5-7x faster than a 1280 with
>equal quality), individual tanks, and user replaceable printhead.
>
>I'm leaning this way because the Epson I had intended to start
>running with MIS quads has been exhibiting problems with random black
>lines in the printout.  From what I can gather online (and advice to
>the contrary would be welcome) this means that the printhead is kaput.
>
>So, I may be getting a Canon to do my black and white as well.  I
>appreciate the idea of a replaceable printhead as this is not the
>first problem I've had with Epsons.  My question is this, anyone out
>there using a Canon for black and white?  Might I be the first in
>these uncharted waters?  Anyone want to chip in and get Paul Roark a
>setup so he can create his much admired curves for these printers?

> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: Kip Babington [mailto:cbabing3@...] 
> Verzonden: vrijdag 11 oktober 2002 2:37
> Aan: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Onderwerp: Re: [Digital BW] Canon Printers
> 
> 
> Well, I'm using a 9000 for B&W output and am quite pleased with the 
> results. 

(...)

>  I've been using  Canon's inks, but 
> just bought a set of refillable cartridges and bulk ink (from 
> inkjetgoodies) to try to cut the cost down.  I expect to do 
> 300-500 prints 
> for Christmas books I make for relatives, and the difference 
> between $2 and 
> $11 per cartridge will add up very quickly.  Not to mention 
> that there have 
> been times when my local photo store was out of a particular Canon 
> cartridge for a week or so.
> 

(...)

Hi Kip,
Thanks for your informative post! Does the above mean you use the color
cartridges for B/W printing? Or do you use only the black one? Anyway,
good to hear there are alternatives for the Canon inks, here (in the
Netherlands) also, but didn't know about refillable cartridges for this
printer (S900 - that I'm planning to buy - and S9000 use the same)


> Part of my buying decision for the Canon printer was the fact of the 
> replaceable printhead.  I had envisioned being able to have a 
> separate 
> printhead loaded with Lyson Small Gamut (whenever they come 
> out with the 
> Canon 9000 version) and keep the Canon inks for the little 
> bit of color 
> work I do.  

Ditto.

Thanks,
Ton Guiking

Yes, I use the color cartridges, not just black.  That's how I can control 
the tone of the image.  The driver does have a box to check "Grayscale" and 
that produces nice images as well, but I don't know whether that's a black 
only process or just uses what Canon thinks is the right mix of colors to 
get a good B&W print.  I'm trying to match the tone of chemical prints at 
the moment, so don't use that setting much.  But I may do so next year when 
I (probably) won't have the same interest in matching another print.

As to the refillable cartridges, I got mine from Inkjetgoodies, but I don't 
know if they ship internationally.  Buying the starter set of cartridges, 
syringes and inks puts the price per filled cartridge at about $2.00US.  If 
I just buy the inks next time the cost per cartridge goes down to about 
$0.85US, although the materials that came with the starter set suggest that 
there is a finite life to the cartridges (about 10 refills) which would 
raise the ongoing cost a bit.

Hope you enjoy your Canon, I know I certainly like mine.

Cheers,
Kip

At 10/11/2002 10:13 AM +0200, Tom wrote, in part:

>Thanks for your informative post! Does the above mean you use the color
>cartridges for B/W printing? Or do you use only the black one? Anyway,
>good to hear there are alternatives for the Canon inks, here (in the
>Netherlands) also, but didn't know about refillable cartridges for this
>printer (S900 - that I'm planning to buy - and S9000 use the same)

Looks like most use Epson gear - does anyone have experience with 
Canon i455 to i860 series printers & B&W ink supplies?

Hi Michael;

To my knowledge no one (including the Piezography people) has been 
able to get B&W pigment inks through a Canon head-apparently the 
Canon head technology doesn't generate enough pressure to keep the 
inks moving through. As a result, non of the Canon printers are 
supported by any of the RIP/systems you'll find discussed on this 
forum. There is a Canon forum;  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-
printers/ try there, I believe Canon is about to release 
some 'archival' dyes which might be worth looking into.

Steve K

--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "michaelheselgrave" 
<hesel@s...> wrote:

> 
> 
> Looks like most use Epson gear - does anyone have experience with 
> Canon i455 to i860 series printers & B&W ink supplies?

Thanks for the info. I am looking at a Pixma 8500 for my colour work 
as I have found the Canon inks to be very economical in Canada and 
the print quality quite remarkable for ink-jet. As for B&W - I think 
I'll try a C86 as they are inexpensive, and I gather from the 
excellent forum info that if dedicated to B&W from the start, 
operating costs are reasonable with the MIS cartridges. 
Thanks & Regards


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven 
Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> wrote:

> 
> Hi Michael;
> 
> To my knowledge no one (including the Piezography people) has been 
> able to get B&W pigment inks through a Canon head-apparently the 
> Canon head technology doesn't generate enough pressure to keep the 
> inks moving through.