Digital BW, The Print

Steve,

One thing you need to add to your procedure are the driver settings you
used. Paper type, dpi, color management, etc.

I have seen a lot of really nice work with the VM inks from 1280's so I know
that it can be done. The curves would not work with the 780 of course
because they are printer dependent. You only tried for two weeks with the VM
and the curves on the 1280? <G>

Martin Wesley

----- Original Message -----
From: "stevekphoto" <stevek@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2002 8:34 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Do-it-yourself Inkset


> Hello all;
> This is my first real posting on this forum, so it may be a bit
> lengthy. Background: like most on this site, I make my living with
> photography, though it's architecture/interiors that pays the bills.
> I have put together an extensive portfolio of B&W images that I've
> been showing around S. Florida, anywhere I can. Tough to get good
> show space around here, but that's another subject. I got into
> computers and DI about three years ago, but only recently got my
> first & second IJ printers, an Eps. 780 and an a 1280. Amazing
> machines both of them, considering the cost, and where the
> technology stood just three years ago. Some research and a look at
> Mike Kravit's work convinced me it was it was time to try B&W
> printing, so I started with MIS VM inks, and Paul Roark's workflow.
> Mike's work BTW, is quite excellent both in technique and content.
> Unfortunately I have to report less than optimum results with the VM
> setup. The `neutral' curves produced ok results, the cool was a bit
> better, but for me at least, the `medium warm' was medium muddy, and
> the `warm' was very muddy. The problem seemed to be over-inking in
> the zone 4 to zone 5 regions. I'm sure this works better on a four
> ink machine, or maybe I simply did something wrong? While the
> problem was barely perceptible to non-existent with the cool &
> neutral curves, it was very obvious at the warm end. I fought it for
> two weeks, trying to refine the curves. I tried other workflows; in
> the end I gave up trying to retain the warm to cool adjustability &
> decided to come up with a neutral-cool inkset that was hopefully
> more intuitive and WYSIWYP, and delineated the trouble areas better.
>  So, four weeks, many sets of latex gloves, syringes, and empty
> cartridges later, I've tested five different re-arrangements of the
> VM inkset, and have settled on the last, feeling I've achieved 95%
> of my goal:
> The color is very neutral on a truly white paper. Obviously, that is
> affected by the      paper tone a lot. Also, it is adjustable to
> taste when you mix the inks.
>  The tonal separation is excellent down to the 90%-95% point, at
> which there is a conflict between needing a solid black and good
> shadow separation, and it is sometimes hard to get both. The rest of
> the range just sings, however, all the way up to some very subtle
> and luminous highlights.
> The process is virtually WYSIWYP:  I set up an image (in greyscale
> or RGB) so it looks good on screen, taking care to make important
> shadow detail visible, by whichever means suits. I've found that
> sending it to the printer with a 10 or 15% dot gain profile will
> give me just about exactly what I see on screen for most prints,
> with very little tweaking needed for the balance.
> So for anyone out there having similar troubles with the VM inks (a
> friend has also had similar problems with the FS inks w/Epson driver
> & workflow system) here's my latest version, and the first one
> really worth trying. Switch/modify ink positions as follows:
>
> Cart/Cis position;  CYAN  use:  CYAN VM ink
>       PHOTO CYAN   > YELLOW  VM ink
>          MAGENTA   >    PHOTO CYAN  VM  ink
>           PHOTO  MAGENTA   >    YELLOW
>           YELLOW   >    PHOTO MAGENTA plus 2drops/5ml photo-
> cyan
> Because the VM inks seem a little warm to me, I've been mixing in
> 1drop/ml of the magenta ink, which is very blue. So in effect, I've
> come up with my own FS cool inks, and I'm getting some excellent
> hassle-free results, not counting the refilling business which I
> hope to do away with shortly. Any one else "doing their own" out
> there?
>
> Steve Karafyllakis
> www.stevekphoto.com
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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>
>
>
>
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>
>
>

> Steve,
> 
> One thing you need to add to your procedure are the driver 
settings you
> used. Paper type, dpi, color management, etc.
> 
> I have seen a lot of really nice work with the VM inks from 1280's 
so I know
> that it can be done. The curves would not work with the 780 of 
course
> because they are printer dependent. You only tried for two weeks 
with the VM
> and the curves on the 1280? <G>
> 
> Martin Wesley

Right, I did neglect those details, so here they are:

O.K., let's try this again-
> Steve,
> 
> One thing you need to add to your procedure are the driver 
settings you
> used. Paper type, dpi, color management, etc.
> 
> I have seen a lot of really nice work with the VM inks from 1280's 
so I know
> that it can be done. The curves would not work with the 780 of 
course
> because they are printer dependent. You only tried for two weeks 
with the VM
> and the curves on the 1280? <G>
> 
> Martin Wesley

Paper type: Matte paper heavyweight
       DPI: 1440
Color management : color controls
     Gamma: 2.2

Martin!- are you suggesting that 2 weeks of 12 hours a day of 
messing with these inks was an inadequate test? I do hope you're 
kidding!
At any rate, even if they worked for me, the disconnect between 
screen image and printed image was very annoying; in the end I 
decided I simply couldn't live with that. The real attraction with 
this new setup is exactly that: you get what you see, and 
corrections are linear and predictable. It does however leave me 
needing a good sepia solution, doing it RGB in color is only close.

Steve

www.stevekphoto.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "stevekphoto" <stevek@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 9:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Do-it-yourself Inkset


(snip)
>
> Paper type: Matte paper heavyweight
>        DPI: 1440
> Color management : color controls
>      Gamma: 2.2
>
> Martin!- are you suggesting that 2 weeks of 12 hours a day of
> messing with these inks was an inadequate test? I do hope you're
> kidding!

Only partially. When I first went to the VM inks on my 1280 the curves had
not been refined and there was about a two month gap before I got to the
point I wanted.

I guess my concern is that the VM inks with the curves works for the
majority of people with a reasonable screen to print match. If it isn't
working for you, then I would suspect that there is something wrong
somewhere in the set-up, with the printer, etc. So it seems unlikely that if
you create a workflow that works well for your system, and I do salute you
for being ingenious and persevering enough to do this, that it may not work
with anyone else's.

If you would like to send me some printed step wedges using the VM inks and
curve I would be happy to take a look and send you some form my system in
return.

> At any rate, even if they worked for me, the disconnect between
> screen image and printed image was very annoying; in the end I
> decided I simply couldn't live with that. The real attraction with
> this new setup is exactly that: you get what you see, and
> corrections are linear and predictable. It does however leave me
> needing a good sepia solution, doing it RGB in color is only close.

Generally monitor to print matching issue is approached by adjusting the
monitor software settings rather than adjusting the ink set. You have a lot
of options to create custom dot gain curves to match your output. The ideal
approach is to create a monitor profile for each ink and paper combination
but this requires some pricey equipment.

Martin
>
> www.stevekphoto.com
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "stevekphoto" <stevek@e...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 9:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Do-it-yourself Inkset
> 
> 
> (snip)
> >
> > Paper type: Matte paper heavyweight
> >        DPI: 1440
> > Color management : color controls
> >      Gamma: 2.2
> >
> > Martin!- are you suggesting that 2 weeks of 12 hours a day of
> > messing with these inks was an inadequate test? I do hope you're
> > kidding!
> 
> Only partially. When I first went to the VM inks on my 1280 the 
curves had
> not been refined and there was about a two month gap before I got 
to the
> point I wanted.

Then it seems I should commend you on your perseverance. For myself, 
I needed to get on with it, and the warm part of the set simply 
didn't work well enough.
 
> I guess my concern is that the VM inks with the curves works for 
the
> majority of people with a reasonable screen to print match. If it 
isn't
> working for you, then I would suspect that there is something wrong
> somewhere in the set-up, with the printer, etc. So it seems 
unlikely that if
> you create a workflow that works well for your system, and I do 
salute you
> for being ingenious and persevering enough to do this, that it may 
not work
> with anyone else's.

I concede that this setup may not, but my opinion (completely 
untested at this point) is that it will work not only for any 1280, 
but with relatively little work, on any six ink printer. Is that an 
outrageous enough claim to get your hackles up? I thought so! So 
I'll go you one better on your offer to trade step-wedges: Send me a 
virgin empty cart and the cost of the ink, and I'll fill it and let 
you try it for yourself if you have a spare six-inker not tied up 
with a CIS. WHAT SAY?

> If you would like to send me some printed step wedges using the VM 
inks and
> curve I would be happy to take a look and send you some form my 
system in
> return.


> Generally monitor to print matching issue is approached by 
adjusting the
> monitor software settings rather than adjusting the ink set. You 
have a lot
> of options to create custom dot gain curves to match your output. 
The ideal
> approach is to create a monitor profile for each ink and paper 
combination
> but this requires some pricey equipment.

As far as my system goes, it's calibrated fairly well, my color 
prints match up to my monitor nicely, as do my RGB attempts at B&W.
AS you say, the real solution is the proper driver, and profiles 
matched to paper and ink. Soon. But you know how that goes: I also 
need an Epson 7500, (and software for it) a CIS, better software for 
my scanner, a glass neg carrier for same, on and on.... all in good 
time.
> 
> Martin
> >
> > http://www.stevekphoto.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the 
subject header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> >
> >
> >