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Epson 7000 on a Mac

Epson 7000 on a Mac

2002-05-01 by goldsmithphoto

>I  have spent weeks trying to get a decent black and white print 
and am
tearing
> what little hair I have left out of my head in the process.
>
> I am a professional photographer trying to make large prints 
with the
Epson
> 7000 on a Mac using MIS VM inks.  I am getting terrible 
posterization
using
> Paul Roark's curves (any of them) and muddy yuck without 
them.  Paul
Roark's
> Workflow hasn't been extended to the Epson 7000 on a Mac, 
but I feel sure
> someone out there is using this combination.
>
> I did a swab test of the the six cartridges, thinking I had an ink
problem,
> which was Paul Roark's opinion, but Bob at MIS said that the 
ink pattern
was
> correct.    I would appreciate any specific advise you could give 
me or
> direct me to someone who is using VM inks on a 7000 on a 
Mac.  I believe
> I've tried just about every combination of color 
space/paper/mode, etc. I
> understand a little about profiling, but do not know how that 
applies to
> hextone inks like the VM's.
>
> Is it time to go to inkjetmall or can MIS' inks work with my 
system.
>
> Again, sorry for taking your time with this.  I am really quite at 
my
wit's
> end.
>

RE: [Digital BW] Epson 7000 on a Mac

2002-05-01 by Paul Roark

I will, hopefully, be able to work on the 7000-Mac VM curves next week.

Paul

______________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  -----Original Message-----
  From: goldsmithphoto [mailto:jaygoldsmith@...]
  Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 5:26 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] Epson 7000 on a Mac


  >I  have spent weeks trying to get a decent black and white print
  and am
  tearing
  > what little hair I have left out of my head in the process.
  >
  > I am a professional photographer trying to make large prints
  with the
  Epson
  > 7000 on a Mac using MIS VM inks.  I am getting terrible
  posterization
  using
  > Paul Roark's curves (any of them) and muddy yuck without
  them.  Paul
  Roark's
  > Workflow hasn't been extended to the Epson 7000 on a Mac,
  but I feel sure
  > someone out there is using this combination.
  >
  > I did a swab test of the the six cartridges, thinking I had an ink
  problem,
  > which was Paul Roark's opinion, but Bob at MIS said that the
  ink pattern
  was
  > correct.    I would appreciate any specific advise you could give
  me or
  > direct me to someone who is using VM inks on a 7000 on a
  Mac.  I believe
  > I've tried just about every combination of color
  space/paper/mode, etc. I
  > understand a little about profiling, but do not know how that
  applies to
  > hextone inks like the VM's.
  >
  > Is it time to go to inkjetmall or can MIS' inks work with my
  system.
  >
  > Again, sorry for taking your time with this.  I am really quite at
  my
  wit's
  > end.
  >


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Transfer curves -- what's desirable?

2002-05-01 by David Dyer-Bennet

I've been playing with transfer curves for "Nevins method" quadtone
printing (printing greyscale through the Epson driver, using the
transfer function to linearize the output).  Two approaches produce
rather different curves.  And neither matches the screen that well
(screen hardware calibrated with Photocal and MC7).

I noticed recently somebody pointing out that the histogram from a
step wedge of equal steps should be a nice comb of equally-spaced
spikes.  (In the real world the spikes are more like triangles, of
course.)  I looked at the histogram from a step wedge printed through
my previous transfer curve, and *eeewwwwwww*.  Bottom and top tones
all muddled together, and spacing not very even.  However, prints
through the old curve look pretty good, and match screen decently.

I built a new curve, evening out the tones.  The step wedge looks
better -- there was a big visual jump at 30% in the old one, for
example, that the new one cleans up.  And in a scan of the step wedge
I get much more evenly spaced peaks.  However, some pictures printed
through it look much lighter than the screen.  Others look okay.
[Update: they dry down some, and look more like the screen when dry]

What I've done with the new transfer curve is divided the dynamic
range of the ink+paper+printer up evenly and shared it out among the
input densities.   What I did before amounts to matching the high
densities in a more *absolute* way (densities that scan equal to a
reference photo print; from ofoto; as recommended by Prof. Nevins),
which results in the low densities piling together (since the MIS ink
on Aspen paper doesn't get as dense as glossy photo paper).  

Is there any argument for one approach being "better", or is this one
of those situations where it has to be an artistic choice on how to
render each print?  I *hate* artistic choices.  (Well, I hate artistic
choices on what I think ought to be technical issues.)

(One underlying assumption of the "evenly spaced comb" approach is
that the scanner does a decent job of representing tone relationships
on a given scan.  Is this nonsense?  Seems to me it *has* to do that
to be of any use as a scanner.  Obviously with a densitometer I could
be more precise and more accurate about this, but I don't have the
budget for a densitometer just now.)
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b@...  /  Ghugle: the Fannish Ghod of Queries
 John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net
        Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/
                 Photos: http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/

Re: [Digital BW] Epson 7000 on a Mac

2002-05-01 by Jay Goldsmith

on 5/1/02 2:34 PM, Paul Roark at paul.roark@... wrote:

I will, hopefully, be able to work on the 7000-Mac VM curves next week.

Paul

______________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
 -----Original Message-----
 From: goldsmithphoto [mailto:jaygoldsmith@...]
 Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 5:26 AM
 To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
 Subject: [Digital BW] Epson 7000 on a Mac


 >I  have spent weeks trying to get a decent black and white print
 and am
 tearing
 > what little hair I have left out of my head in the process.
 >
 > I am a professional photographer trying to make large prints
 with the
 Epson
 > 7000 on a Mac using MIS VM inks.  I am getting terrible
 posterization
 using
 > Paul Roark's curves (any of them) and muddy yuck without
 them.  Paul
 Roark's
 > Workflow hasn't been extended to the Epson 7000 on a Mac,
 but I feel sure
 > someone out there is using this combination.
 >
 > I did a swab test of the the six cartridges, thinking I had an ink
 problem,
 > which was Paul Roark's opinion, but Bob at MIS said that the
 ink pattern
 was
 > correct.    I would appreciate any specific advise you could give
 me or
 > direct me to someone who is using VM inks on a 7000 on a
 Mac.  I believe
 > I've tried just about every combination of color
 space/paper/mode, etc. I
 > understand a little about profiling, but do not know how that
 applies to
 > hextone inks like the VM's.
 >
 > Is it time to go to inkjetmall or can MIS' inks work with my
 system.
 >
 > Again, sorry for taking your time with this.  I am really quite at
 my
 wit's
 > end.
 >


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT

Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

Please follow these basic guidelines:
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- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
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<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

Paul,

Thank you for your reply.  I did not want to e-mail you directly again and
make a pest of myself after you had said you were going to to try to get to
them after tax time.  But I certainly do appreciate your efforts.

Jay 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Transfer curves -- what's desirable?

2002-05-02 by jrandall1149

David:

Take any of the 21-step wedge test files available and crop to just 
the steps (eliminate any continious ramp, surrounding background 
space, and seperator lines in the step area) and then use the 
histogram function of your image editing program.  You will see the 
peaks to be equally spaced between 0-255 or 0-100%.  This indicates 
to me that if you print out the step wedge and then scan it and check 
the image as above, you should end up with evenly spaced peaks
(assuming as you said a good scanner).

This is the logic I used when I created the RGB partitioned curves 
for the 1160 (see MIS web site or Files here). During scanning I set 
the blackest black of step wedge test print to 100% (or 0 value) and 
the whitest white (=color of paper) to 0% (255)--that is I expanded 
the maximum range on my paper to the "theoretical" 0-100 range. I 
then tweaked to curves to equally space the other 19 peaks.
 
I have also used this approach to tweak Woolf's lumped (non-
partitioned) single curve work flow.  I haven't tried Jerry Nivin's 
workflow, but I suspect it is the same or similar.  

So my suggestion (don't know if it is technically correct or not, but 
it seems to work for me) is to shoot for equally spaced peaks.

Good Luck.

Jeff Randall


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., David Dyer-Bennet <dd-
b@d...> wrote:
<snip> 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I noticed recently somebody pointing out that the histogram from a
> step wedge of equal steps should be a nice comb of equally-spaced
> spikes.

Re: Transfer curves -- what's desirable?

2002-05-03 by craig_spaulding

Jeff,

I have several questions re your transfer curves technique:

1) Can the black and white points be set in Photoshop instead of the 
scanner after the step-edge has been scanned? I work with a digital 
camera and my scanner is marginal and I don't think the black and 
white points can be set in the software.

2) Is this a technique for making a transfer curve or a curve that 
is to be applied in an adjustment layer? Once the curve is made, can 
it be applied either place?

3) Is there a good method for going about modifying an existing 
curve (like the Woolf)? Do you click on the appropriate step in the 
step-wedge to find out where it is on the curve that step is, then 
use the up/down arrow or change the numbers in the dialog box? If 
so, is there a rhyme or reason for how much to change it to equally 
space out the peaks, or, is it all trial and error. Or, do you just 
focus on changing the general shape of the curve to space out the 
peaks?

Thanks for any help!

Craig Spaulding

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jrandall1149" 
<jrandall@c...> wrote:
> David:
> 
> Take any of the 21-step wedge test files available and crop to 
just 
> the steps (eliminate any continious ramp, surrounding background 
> space, and seperator lines in the step area) and then use the 
> histogram function of your image editing program.  You will see 
the 
> peaks to be equally spaced between 0-255 or 0-100%.  This 
indicates 
> to me that if you print out the step wedge and then scan it and 
check 
> the image as above, you should end up with evenly spaced peaks
> (assuming as you said a good scanner).
> 
> This is the logic I used when I created the RGB partitioned curves 
> for the 1160 (see MIS web site or Files here). During scanning I 
set 
> the blackest black of step wedge test print to 100% (or 0 value) 
and 
> the whitest white (=color of paper) to 0% (255)--that is I 
expanded 
> the maximum range on my paper to the "theoretical" 0-100 range. I 
> then tweaked to curves to equally space the other 19 peaks.
>  
> I have also used this approach to tweak Woolf's lumped (non-
> partitioned) single curve work flow.  I haven't tried Jerry 
Nivin's 
> workflow, but I suspect it is the same or similar.  
> 
> So my suggestion (don't know if it is technically correct or not, 
but 
> it seems to work for me) is to shoot for equally spaced peaks.
> 
> Good Luck.
> 
> Jeff Randall
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., David Dyer-Bennet <dd-
> b@d...> wrote:
> <snip> 
> > I noticed recently somebody pointing out that the histogram from 
a
> > step wedge of equal steps should be a nice comb of equally-spaced
> > spikes.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Transfer curves -- what's desirable?

2002-05-03 by David Dyer-Bennet

"craig_spaulding" <craig_spaulding@...> writes:

> Jeff,
> 
> I have several questions re your transfer curves technique:
> 
> 1) Can the black and white points be set in Photoshop instead of the 
> scanner after the step-edge has been scanned? I work with a digital 
> camera and my scanner is marginal and I don't think the black and 
> white points can be set in the software.

Are you suggesting taking a digital photo of the step wedge instead of
using the scanner?  In theory this should work okay.  The one obvious
way to ruin it is to have the lighting uneven (since the point of the
scan/image of the step wedge is to quantify the brightness
differences). 

> 2) Is this a technique for making a transfer curve or a curve that 
> is to be applied in an adjustment layer? Once the curve is made, can 
> it be applied either place?

I've used it only as a transfer curve.  The units are different in
transfer curves and adjustment curves, so they're not *directly*
interchangeable.  

The point of the Nevins method is to be able to edit "by eye" until it
looks good, and then use the transfer curve to bring the paper into
line with what's on the screen, so I haven't experimented with making
the paper-specific adjustments visibly on screen.

> 3) Is there a good method for going about modifying an existing 
> curve (like the Woolf)? Do you click on the appropriate step in the 
> step-wedge to find out where it is on the curve that step is, then 
> use the up/down arrow or change the numbers in the dialog box? If 
> so, is there a rhyme or reason for how much to change it to equally 
> space out the peaks, or, is it all trial and error. Or, do you just 
> focus on changing the general shape of the curve to space out the 
> peaks?

What I do is scan the most-recent-generation step wedge and measure
each patch using the histogram tool (constrained by a rectangular
marquee), and write down all the numbers.  Then I calculate what each
number *should* have been (starting with the 0% and 100% numbers being
inherently correct).  Then I calculate the adjustment for each
intermediate step.  Then I go apply those adjustments to the transfer
curve, and save it.  Then I print a new step wedge and start over.

Depending on the ink/paper combination you use, it may be crucial to
let the step wedge dry before scanning it.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b@...  /  Ghugle: the Fannish Ghod of Queries
 John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net
        Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/
                 Photos: http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/

[Digital BW] Re: Transfer curves -- what's desirable?

2002-05-03 by craig_spaulding

David,

Thanks for the answers.

re: setting the black/white points of the wtep-wedge:

Sorry I was unclear - No, I was just stating that as a reason why I 
couldn't set the white/black points of the step-wedge in my scanning 
software - it is brain dead. I CAN scan the step-wedges, but I was 
wondering if it was possible to set the white/black points once it's 
imported into Photoshop --or-- if they had to be set in the scanning 
software for this method to work effectively? 

Craig

> > 1) Can the black and white points be set in Photoshop instead of 
the 
> > scanner after the step-edge has been scanned? I work with a 
digital 
> > camera and my scanner is marginal and I don't think the black 
and 
> > white points can be set in the software.
> 
> Are you suggesting taking a digital photo of the step wedge 
instead of
> using the scanner?  In theory this should work okay.  The one 
obvious
> way to ruin it is to have the lighting uneven (since the point of 
the
> scan/image of the step wedge is to quantify the brightness
> differences).

Re: Transfer curves -- what's desirable?

2002-05-03 by jrandall1149

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "craig_spaulding" 
<craig_spaulding@y...> wrote:
> Jeff,
> 
> I have several questions re your transfer curves technique:
> 
> 1) Can the black and white points be set in Photoshop instead of 
the 
> scanner after the step-edge has been scanned? I work with a digital 
> camera and my scanner is marginal and I don't think the black and 
> white points can be set in the software.

I've had better luck setting the b/w points during scanning than 
setting in my image editing software (your results may vary).  I use 
VueScan as my scanning software and have found the histogram feature 
to be very good. (www.hamrick.com). I use Picture Windows as my image 
editing software because I think its curves/histogram feature is the 
best of any editing package (I also use it for a lot more reasons, 
but that's another post) (www.dl-c.com). I also have and occassionly 
use PhotoShop 6.0 
> 
> 2) Is this a technique for making a transfer curve or a curve that 
> is to be applied in an adjustment layer? Once the curve is made, 
can 
> it be applied either place?

Transfer curve and adjustment layer curves are essentially the same.  
They both map an input value (in what ever units) to an output 
value.  Because they use different units they are not directly 
interchangeable, but if you do the math you can create curves the do 
the same thing in both worlds.
> 
> 3) Is there a good method for going about modifying an existing 
> curve (like the Woolf)? Do you click on the appropriate step in the 
> step-wedge to find out where it is on the curve that step is, then 
> use the up/down arrow or change the numbers in the dialog box? If 
> so, is there a rhyme or reason for how much to change it to equally 
> space out the peaks, or, is it all trial and error. Or, do you just 
> focus on changing the general shape of the curve to space out the 
> peaks?
>
Here is an approach that I used to create my RGB Partitioned Workflow 
for the 1160 and MIS FS inkset (and modify the Woolf lumped 
workflow).  It works for me (your milage may vary)  It is not a 
complete cookbook and every nuance is not spelled out.  

1)  Print a quad purge image and scan using the procedure outlined in 
step #3 to determine the approximate reflective values (I use the 0-
100% scale) of each pure ink on the paper.   Crop the image to 
produce approximately equal areas of the 4 inks and white space.  The 
ink values determine the maximum "density" that can be
achieved by 
each ink alone and serve as a guide to when the next darker shade 
must be started. 
2)  Apply a starter RGB partitioned curve set to a 21-step wedge test 
image and then print.
[Note:  I use the step wedge posted in the Files section of the Yahoo 
Piezography3000 Group.  The file is piezmultisteps.psd.  It has 
excellent low (95-100%), medium (45-55%), and high (0-5%) brightness 
test areas to allow you to visually  evaluate and set these benchmark 
values. I initially used Paul Roark's curves he developed for the 
Piezography BW inkset and the Epson driver.]
3)  I scan the print with my HP-5370 scanner using VueScan.  VS 
settings are: 
* Crop = tightly set to only scan the narrow 21 step portion of the 
test image. Don't include any of the grayscale ramp or the portion of 
the 21 stepwedge with the light or dark separator lines.  My goal is 
to have 21 separate and narrow histogram peaks with little noise in 
between.   
* Color balance = auto levels. I use auto levels because it sets each 
RGB curve to the b/w points — neutral doesn't and white balance 
doesn't do this well.
[Note:  I don't care about the "color" of my
grayscale—all I'm 
interested in is the overall/combined brightness.]
* B/W points set to clip the 0% (255) and 100% (0) gray value steps 
to expand the range to the maximum.  That is, set the 0% gray value 
to the whiteness of my paper and the 100% gray value to the blackest 
black I can print with the inkset. 
* Scanning resolution = 150 dpi. 
* Number of passes = 4.  This reduces noise and increases peak 
separation, especially in the dark end.  The exact pixel alignment is 
not an issue with a stepwedge print.
* File color space = AdobeRGB
* Grain reduction = heavy.  This also seems to increase peak 
separation in the dark end.
* Tiff file type = 24-bit RGB
4) I open the Tiff file in Picture Windows and apply the Color|Curves 
function which combines a curve and histogram view of the pixels. 
[Note:  The PW Color Curve and grayscale Brightness Curve functions 
can both display the image value, lightness, or brightness of the 
image in the HSV, HSL or RGB color spaces, respectively.  I use the 
HSV color space because it does a good job of separating the image 
brightness component from the color components which I don't care 
about.  Image brightness in the RGB space is a weighted sum of each 
RGB color and overall not as useful.]
5)  I note on a worksheet whether each of the remaining 19 peaks 
needs to be moved lighter or darker and a relative amount.
6)  I then load and apply the RGB partitioned curve used to create 
the tight crop of the 21 step wedge to my test image and adjust each 
individual RGB curve (red=dark, green=medium, & blue=light gray), as 
determined in Step #5. 
7) I then save the new RGB partitioned curve under a different name.
[Note: When I get close to where I want the peaks to be, I open the 
Picture Windows RGB partitioned curve file (filename.cc) with a text 
editor and manually change the values (which are stored as 0-255 
values) ]
8)  I then print the test image.  
9)  Iterate until you are satisfied (or run out of paper or ink).

Re: Transfer curves -- what's desirable?

2002-05-03 by craig_spaulding

Jeff,

Wow, thanks for the details. This will keep me going for a while...

Craig Spaulding

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jrandall1149" 
<jrandall@c...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "craig_spaulding" 
> <craig_spaulding@y...> wrote:
> > Jeff,
> > 
> > I have several questions re your transfer curves technique:
> > 
> > 1) Can the black and white points be set in Photoshop instead of 
> the 
> > scanner after the step-edge has been scanned? I work with a 
digital 
> > camera and my scanner is marginal and I don't think the black 
and 
> > white points can be set in the software.
> 
> I've had better luck setting the b/w points during scanning than 
> setting in my image editing software (your results may vary).  I 
use 
> VueScan as my scanning software and have found the histogram 
feature 
> to be very good. (www.hamrick.com). I use Picture Windows as my 
image 
> editing software because I think its curves/histogram feature is 
the 
> best of any editing package (I also use it for a lot more reasons, 
> but that's another post) (www.dl-c.com). I also have and 
occassionly 
> use PhotoShop 6.0 
> > 
> > 2) Is this a technique for making a transfer curve or a curve 
that 
> > is to be applied in an adjustment layer? Once the curve is made, 
> can 
> > it be applied either place?
> 
> Transfer curve and adjustment layer curves are essentially the 
same.  
> They both map an input value (in what ever units) to an output 
> value.  Because they use different units they are not directly 
> interchangeable, but if you do the math you can create curves the 
do 
> the same thing in both worlds.
> > 
> > 3) Is there a good method for going about modifying an existing 
> > curve (like the Woolf)? Do you click on the appropriate step in 
the 
> > step-wedge to find out where it is on the curve that step is, 
then 
> > use the up/down arrow or change the numbers in the dialog box? 
If 
> > so, is there a rhyme or reason for how much to change it to 
equally 
> > space out the peaks, or, is it all trial and error. Or, do you 
just 
> > focus on changing the general shape of the curve to space out 
the 
> > peaks?
> >
> Here is an approach that I used to create my RGB Partitioned 
Workflow 
> for the 1160 and MIS FS inkset (and modify the Woolf lumped 
> workflow).  It works for me (your milage may vary)  It is not a 
> complete cookbook and every nuance is not spelled out.  
> 
> 1)  Print a quad purge image and scan using the procedure outlined 
in 
> step #3 to determine the approximate reflective values (I use the 
0-
> 100% scale) of each pure ink on the paper.   Crop the image to 
> produce approximately equal areas of the 4 inks and white space.  
The 
> ink values determine the maximum "density" that can be
> achieved by 
> each ink alone and serve as a guide to when the next darker shade 
> must be started. 
> 2)  Apply a starter RGB partitioned curve set to a 21-step wedge 
test 
> image and then print.
> [Note:  I use the step wedge posted in the Files section of the 
Yahoo 
> Piezography3000 Group.  The file is piezmultisteps.psd.  It has 
> excellent low (95-100%), medium (45-55%), and high (0-5%) 
brightness 
> test areas to allow you to visually  evaluate and set these 
benchmark 
> values. I initially used Paul Roark's curves he developed for the 
> Piezography BW inkset and the Epson driver.]
> 3)  I scan the print with my HP-5370 scanner using VueScan.  VS 
> settings are: 
> * Crop = tightly set to only scan the narrow 21 step portion of 
the 
> test image. Don't include any of the grayscale ramp or the portion 
of 
> the 21 stepwedge with the light or dark separator lines.  My goal 
is 
> to have 21 separate and narrow histogram peaks with little noise 
in 
> between.   
> * Color balance = auto levels. I use auto levels because it sets 
each 
> RGB curve to the b/w points — neutral doesn't and white balance 
> doesn't do this well.
> [Note:  I don't care about the "color" of my
> grayscale—all I'm 
> interested in is the overall/combined brightness.]
> * B/W points set to clip the 0% (255) and 100% (0) gray value 
steps 
> to expand the range to the maximum.  That is, set the 0% gray 
value 
> to the whiteness of my paper and the 100% gray value to the 
blackest 
> black I can print with the inkset. 
> * Scanning resolution = 150 dpi. 
> * Number of passes = 4.  This reduces noise and increases peak 
> separation, especially in the dark end.  The exact pixel alignment 
is 
> not an issue with a stepwedge print.
> * File color space = AdobeRGB
> * Grain reduction = heavy.  This also seems to increase peak 
> separation in the dark end.
> * Tiff file type = 24-bit RGB
> 4) I open the Tiff file in Picture Windows and apply the 
Color|Curves 
> function which combines a curve and histogram view of the pixels. 
> [Note:  The PW Color Curve and grayscale Brightness Curve 
functions 
> can both display the image value, lightness, or brightness of the 
> image in the HSV, HSL or RGB color spaces, respectively.  I use 
the 
> HSV color space because it does a good job of separating the image 
> brightness component from the color components which I don't care 
> about.  Image brightness in the RGB space is a weighted sum of 
each 
> RGB color and overall not as useful.]
> 5)  I note on a worksheet whether each of the remaining 19 peaks 
> needs to be moved lighter or darker and a relative amount.
> 6)  I then load and apply the RGB partitioned curve used to create 
> the tight crop of the 21 step wedge to my test image and adjust 
each 
> individual RGB curve (red=dark, green=medium, & blue=light gray), 
as 
> determined in Step #5. 
> 7) I then save the new RGB partitioned curve under a different 
name.
> [Note: When I get close to where I want the peaks to be, I open 
the 
> Picture Windows RGB partitioned curve file (filename.cc) with a 
text 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> editor and manually change the values (which are stored as 0-255 
> values) ]
> 8)  I then print the test image.  
> 9)  Iterate until you are satisfied (or run out of paper or ink).

Re: Transfer curves -- what's desirable?

2002-05-03 by jrandall1149

Craig:

The outlined method I posted is for creating a partitioned RGB curve 
set (one that controls each of the three shade of gray seperately).  
The Woolf workflow lumps all three gray inks into one, yielding a two 
ink system (gray and black). Therefore no need to do Step 1.  Step 4 
would use the Brightness Curve function in HSV colorspace instead of 
the Color Curve function.  ETC.

Another point about the Woolf workflow is that the color positions of 
the gray inks don't matter, because they are all mixed in approximate 
equal proportions by the Epson driver.  So this workflow (approach 
not the exact curve) can work for MIS original, or MIS FS, or any 
inkset with different ink positions or ink densities.

I suggest you read the both Woolf's and my workflow documents for 
additional details.

Jeff Randall  

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "craig_spaulding" 
<craig_spaulding@y...> wrote:
> Jeff,
> 
> Wow, thanks for the details. This will keep me going for a while...
> 
> Craig Spaulding
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jrandall1149" 
> <jrandall@c...> wrote:
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "craig_spaulding" 
> > <craig_spaulding@y...> wrote:
> > > Jeff,
> > > 
> > > I have several questions re your transfer curves technique:
> > > 
> > > 1) Can the black and white points be set in Photoshop instead 
of 
> > the 
> > > scanner after the step-edge has been scanned? I work with a 
> digital 
> > > camera and my scanner is marginal and I don't think the black 
> and 
> > > white points can be set in the software.
> > 
> > I've had better luck setting the b/w points during scanning than 
> > setting in my image editing software (your results may vary).  I 
> use 
> > VueScan as my scanning software and have found the histogram 
> feature 
> > to be very good. (www.hamrick.com). I use Picture Windows as my 
> image 
> > editing software because I think its curves/histogram feature is 
> the 
> > best of any editing package (I also use it for a lot more 
reasons, 
> > but that's another post) (www.dl-c.com). I also have and 
> occassionly 
> > use PhotoShop 6.0 
> > > 
> > > 2) Is this a technique for making a transfer curve or a curve 
> that 
> > > is to be applied in an adjustment layer? Once the curve is 
made, 
> > can 
> > > it be applied either place?
> > 
> > Transfer curve and adjustment layer curves are essentially the 
> same.  
> > They both map an input value (in what ever units) to an output 
> > value.  Because they use different units they are not directly 
> > interchangeable, but if you do the math you can create curves the 
> do 
> > the same thing in both worlds.
> > > 
> > > 3) Is there a good method for going about modifying an existing 
> > > curve (like the Woolf)? Do you click on the appropriate step in 
> the 
> > > step-wedge to find out where it is on the curve that step is, 
> then 
> > > use the up/down arrow or change the numbers in the dialog box? 
> If 
> > > so, is there a rhyme or reason for how much to change it to 
> equally 
> > > space out the peaks, or, is it all trial and error. Or, do you 
> just 
> > > focus on changing the general shape of the curve to space out 
> the 
> > > peaks?
> > >
> > Here is an approach that I used to create my RGB Partitioned 
> Workflow 
> > for the 1160 and MIS FS inkset (and modify the Woolf lumped 
> > workflow).  It works for me (your milage may vary)  It is not a 
> > complete cookbook and every nuance is not spelled out.  
> > 
> > 1)  Print a quad purge image and scan using the procedure 
outlined 
> in 
> > step #3 to determine the approximate reflective values (I use the 
> 0-
> > 100% scale) of each pure ink on the paper.   Crop the image to 
> > produce approximately equal areas of the 4 inks and white space.  
> The 
> > ink values determine the maximum "density" that can be
> > achieved by 
> > each ink alone and serve as a guide to when the next darker shade 
> > must be started. 
> > 2)  Apply a starter RGB partitioned curve set to a 21-step wedge 
> test 
> > image and then print.
> > [Note:  I use the step wedge posted in the Files section of the 
> Yahoo 
> > Piezography3000 Group.  The file is piezmultisteps.psd.  It has 
> > excellent low (95-100%), medium (45-55%), and high (0-5%) 
> brightness 
> > test areas to allow you to visually  evaluate and set these 
> benchmark 
> > values. I initially used Paul Roark's curves he developed for the 
> > Piezography BW inkset and the Epson driver.]
> > 3)  I scan the print with my HP-5370 scanner using VueScan.  VS 
> > settings are: 
> > * Crop = tightly set to only scan the narrow 21 step portion of 
> the 
> > test image. Don't include any of the grayscale ramp or the 
portion 
> of 
> > the 21 stepwedge with the light or dark separator lines.  My goal 
> is 
> > to have 21 separate and narrow histogram peaks with little noise 
> in 
> > between.   
> > * Color balance = auto levels. I use auto levels because it sets 
> each 
> > RGB curve to the b/w points — neutral doesn't and white balance 
> > doesn't do this well.
> > [Note:  I don't care about the "color" of my
> > grayscale—all I'm 
> > interested in is the overall/combined brightness.]
> > * B/W points set to clip the 0% (255) and 100% (0) gray value 
> steps 
> > to expand the range to the maximum.  That is, set the 0% gray 
> value 
> > to the whiteness of my paper and the 100% gray value to the 
> blackest 
> > black I can print with the inkset. 
> > * Scanning resolution = 150 dpi. 
> > * Number of passes = 4.  This reduces noise and increases peak 
> > separation, especially in the dark end.  The exact pixel 
alignment 
> is 
> > not an issue with a stepwedge print.
> > * File color space = AdobeRGB
> > * Grain reduction = heavy.  This also seems to increase peak 
> > separation in the dark end.
> > * Tiff file type = 24-bit RGB
> > 4) I open the Tiff file in Picture Windows and apply the 
> Color|Curves 
> > function which combines a curve and histogram view of the pixels. 
> > [Note:  The PW Color Curve and grayscale Brightness Curve 
> functions 
> > can both display the image value, lightness, or brightness of the 
> > image in the HSV, HSL or RGB color spaces, respectively.  I use 
> the 
> > HSV color space because it does a good job of separating the 
image 
> > brightness component from the color components which I don't care 
> > about.  Image brightness in the RGB space is a weighted sum of 
> each 
> > RGB color and overall not as useful.]
> > 5)  I note on a worksheet whether each of the remaining 19 peaks 
> > needs to be moved lighter or darker and a relative amount.
> > 6)  I then load and apply the RGB partitioned curve used to 
create 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > the tight crop of the 21 step wedge to my test image and adjust 
> each 
> > individual RGB curve (red=dark, green=medium, & blue=light gray), 
> as 
> > determined in Step #5. 
> > 7) I then save the new RGB partitioned curve under a different 
> name.
> > [Note: When I get close to where I want the peaks to be, I open 
> the 
> > Picture Windows RGB partitioned curve file (filename.cc) with a 
> text 
> > editor and manually change the values (which are stored as 0-255 
> > values) ]
> > 8)  I then print the test image.  
> > 9)  Iterate until you are satisfied (or run out of paper or ink).

Re: Transfer curves -- what's desirable?

2002-05-03 by craig_spaulding

Jeff,

Are you sure that the Epson driver with the Woolf workflow mixes all 
the inks equally? I would expect to see dots in the 0-20% range, 
which I don't? I haven't examined with it with a lupe, but to the 
naked eye I don't see any. Maybe it's just my old feable eyes! :-)

Would your method work equally as well with a CMYK setup. It seems 
like it would and it might give even more control - especially over 
the black?

I'll start with the Woolf lumped curve since that is what I'm 
familiar with at the moment and have done a lot of tweaking, but 
totally by eye. After that maybe the partitioned RGB or CMYK. I 
would really like to be able to control the 100-80% better than I 
can now. Al lthis is being done on a Epson 980.

Thanks again for your help,

Craig Spaulding

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jrandall1149" 
<jrandall@c...> wrote:
> Craig:
> 
> The outlined method I posted is for creating a partitioned RGB 
curve 
> set (one that controls each of the three shade of gray 
seperately).  
> The Woolf workflow lumps all three gray inks into one, yielding a 
two 
> ink system (gray and black). Therefore no need to do Step 1.  Step 
4 
> would use the Brightness Curve function in HSV colorspace instead 
of 
> the Color Curve function.  ETC.
> 
> Another point about the Woolf workflow is that the color positions 
of 
> the gray inks don't matter, because they are all mixed in 
approximate 
> equal proportions by the Epson driver.  So this workflow (approach 
> not the exact curve) can work for MIS original, or MIS FS, or any 
> inkset with different ink positions or ink densities.
> 
> I suggest you read the both Woolf's and my workflow documents for 
> additional details.
> 
> Jeff Randall  
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "craig_spaulding" 
> <craig_spaulding@y...> wrote:
> > Jeff,
> > 
> > Wow, thanks for the details. This will keep me going for a 
while...
> > 
> > Craig Spaulding
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jrandall1149" 
> > <jrandall@c...> wrote:
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "craig_spaulding" 
> > > <craig_spaulding@y...> wrote:
> > > > Jeff,
> > > > 
> > > > I have several questions re your transfer curves technique:
> > > > 
> > > > 1) Can the black and white points be set in Photoshop 
instead 
> of 
> > > the 
> > > > scanner after the step-edge has been scanned? I work with a 
> > digital 
> > > > camera and my scanner is marginal and I don't think the 
black 
> > and 
> > > > white points can be set in the software.
> > > 
> > > I've had better luck setting the b/w points during scanning 
than 
> > > setting in my image editing software (your results may vary).  
I 
> > use 
> > > VueScan as my scanning software and have found the histogram 
> > feature 
> > > to be very good. (www.hamrick.com). I use Picture Windows as 
my 
> > image 
> > > editing software because I think its curves/histogram feature 
is 
> > the 
> > > best of any editing package (I also use it for a lot more 
> reasons, 
> > > but that's another post) (www.dl-c.com). I also have and 
> > occassionly 
> > > use PhotoShop 6.0 
> > > > 
> > > > 2) Is this a technique for making a transfer curve or a 
curve 
> > that 
> > > > is to be applied in an adjustment layer? Once the curve is 
> made, 
> > > can 
> > > > it be applied either place?
> > > 
> > > Transfer curve and adjustment layer curves are essentially the 
> > same.  
> > > They both map an input value (in what ever units) to an output 
> > > value.  Because they use different units they are not directly 
> > > interchangeable, but if you do the math you can create curves 
the 
> > do 
> > > the same thing in both worlds.
> > > > 
> > > > 3) Is there a good method for going about modifying an 
existing 
> > > > curve (like the Woolf)? Do you click on the appropriate step 
in 
> > the 
> > > > step-wedge to find out where it is on the curve that step 
is, 
> > then 
> > > > use the up/down arrow or change the numbers in the dialog 
box? 
> > If 
> > > > so, is there a rhyme or reason for how much to change it to 
> > equally 
> > > > space out the peaks, or, is it all trial and error. Or, do 
you 
> > just 
> > > > focus on changing the general shape of the curve to space 
out 
> > the 
> > > > peaks?
> > > >
> > > Here is an approach that I used to create my RGB Partitioned 
> > Workflow 
> > > for the 1160 and MIS FS inkset (and modify the Woolf lumped 
> > > workflow).  It works for me (your milage may vary)  It is not 
a 
> > > complete cookbook and every nuance is not spelled out.  
> > > 
> > > 1)  Print a quad purge image and scan using the procedure 
> outlined 
> > in 
> > > step #3 to determine the approximate reflective values (I use 
the 
> > 0-
> > > 100% scale) of each pure ink on the paper.   Crop the image to 
> > > produce approximately equal areas of the 4 inks and white 
space.  
> > The 
> > > ink values determine the maximum "density" that can be
> > > achieved by 
> > > each ink alone and serve as a guide to when the next darker 
shade 
> > > must be started. 
> > > 2)  Apply a starter RGB partitioned curve set to a 21-step 
wedge 
> > test 
> > > image and then print.
> > > [Note:  I use the step wedge posted in the Files section of 
the 
> > Yahoo 
> > > Piezography3000 Group.  The file is piezmultisteps.psd.  It 
has 
> > > excellent low (95-100%), medium (45-55%), and high (0-5%) 
> > brightness 
> > > test areas to allow you to visually  evaluate and set these 
> > benchmark 
> > > values. I initially used Paul Roark's curves he developed for 
the 
> > > Piezography BW inkset and the Epson driver.]
> > > 3)  I scan the print with my HP-5370 scanner using VueScan.  
VS 
> > > settings are: 
> > > * Crop = tightly set to only scan the narrow 21 step portion 
of 
> > the 
> > > test image. Don't include any of the grayscale ramp or the 
> portion 
> > of 
> > > the 21 stepwedge with the light or dark separator lines.  My 
goal 
> > is 
> > > to have 21 separate and narrow histogram peaks with little 
noise 
> > in 
> > > between.   
> > > * Color balance = auto levels. I use auto levels because it 
sets 
> > each 
> > > RGB curve to the b/w points — neutral doesn't and white 
balance 
> > > doesn't do this well.
> > > [Note:  I don't care about the "color" of my
> > > grayscale—all I'm 
> > > interested in is the overall/combined brightness.]
> > > * B/W points set to clip the 0% (255) and 100% (0) gray value 
> > steps 
> > > to expand the range to the maximum.  That is, set the 0% gray 
> > value 
> > > to the whiteness of my paper and the 100% gray value to the 
> > blackest 
> > > black I can print with the inkset. 
> > > * Scanning resolution = 150 dpi. 
> > > * Number of passes = 4.  This reduces noise and increases peak 
> > > separation, especially in the dark end.  The exact pixel 
> alignment 
> > is 
> > > not an issue with a stepwedge print.
> > > * File color space = AdobeRGB
> > > * Grain reduction = heavy.  This also seems to increase peak 
> > > separation in the dark end.
> > > * Tiff file type = 24-bit RGB
> > > 4) I open the Tiff file in Picture Windows and apply the 
> > Color|Curves 
> > > function which combines a curve and histogram view of the 
pixels. 
> > > [Note:  The PW Color Curve and grayscale Brightness Curve 
> > functions 
> > > can both display the image value, lightness, or brightness of 
the 
> > > image in the HSV, HSL or RGB color spaces, respectively.  I 
use 
> > the 
> > > HSV color space because it does a good job of separating the 
> image 
> > > brightness component from the color components which I don't 
care 
> > > about.  Image brightness in the RGB space is a weighted sum of 
> > each 
> > > RGB color and overall not as useful.]
> > > 5)  I note on a worksheet whether each of the remaining 19 
peaks 
> > > needs to be moved lighter or darker and a relative amount.
> > > 6)  I then load and apply the RGB partitioned curve used to 
> create 
> > > the tight crop of the 21 step wedge to my test image and 
adjust 
> > each 
> > > individual RGB curve (red=dark, green=medium, & blue=light 
gray), 
> > as 
> > > determined in Step #5. 
> > > 7) I then save the new RGB partitioned curve under a different 
> > name.
> > > [Note: When I get close to where I want the peaks to be, I 
open 
> > the 
> > > Picture Windows RGB partitioned curve file (filename.cc) with 
a 
> > text 
> > > editor and manually change the values (which are stored as 0-
255 
> > > values) ]
> > > 8)  I then print the test image.  
> > > 9)  Iterate until you are satisfied (or run out of paper or 
ink).

Re: Transfer curves -- what's desirable?

2002-05-03 by jrandall1149

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "craig_spaulding" 
<craig_spaulding@y...> wrote:
> Jeff,
> 
> Are you sure that the Epson driver with the Woolf workflow mixes 
all 
> the inks equally? I would expect to see dots in the 0-20% range, 
> which I don't? 

Yes (or at least pretty sure--maybe some Epson guru will set the 
record straight).  With only one curve, how would the driver know to 
lay down light gray ink at the light end of the gray scale and medium 
gray in the midtones etc or how much of each ink if the amounts were 
different? Note:  This control of each of the gray inks is the main 
advantage of the partitioned workflow (as well as less banding at the 
dark end on some folks printers). 

The Woolf lumped workflow and other similar workflows are really a 
two ink system, black and a combined middle gray.  You can clearly 
see the dither under a 10x loupe from the 5% step on up.  At normal 
viewing distances, the Woolf workflow does an excellent job (unless 
banding is a problem with your combination of factors).  
> 
> Would your method work equally as well with a CMYK setup. It seems 
> like it would and it might give even more control - especially over 
> the black?

I suppose so, but I haven't tried.  The workflow with the Epson 
controls only the 3 gray inks, the black ink is controlled by the 
driver. Black seems to kick in when the other 3 inks are greater than 
50% (assuming 0%=white and 100%=black).  You can see the effect in my 
partitioned RGB curves where the Red curve (which controls the cyan 
position dark gray ink) flattens out at about 50% as the black ink 
kick in (the other two curves are at 100%).

Happy Trails.

Jeff Randall

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Transfer curves -- what's desirable?

2002-05-05 by David Dyer-Bennet

"craig_spaulding" <craig_spaulding@...> writes:

> David,
> 
> Thanks for the answers.
> 
> re: setting the black/white points of the wtep-wedge:
> 
> Sorry I was unclear - No, I was just stating that as a reason why I 
> couldn't set the white/black points of the step-wedge in my scanning 
> software - it is brain dead. I CAN scan the step-wedges, but I was 
> wondering if it was possible to set the white/black points once it's 
> imported into Photoshop --or-- if they had to be set in the scanning 
> software for this method to work effectively? 

Ah, I see.  Perfectly acceptable to leave that until Photoshop (or
just not bother to adjust them; doesn't matter what the image *looks*
like, after all, and it won't change the amount of information
available). 
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b@...  /  Ghugle: the Fannish Ghod of Queries
 John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net
        Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/
                 Photos: http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Transfer curves -- what's desirable?

2002-05-05 by David Dyer-Bennet

"jrandall1149" <jrandall@...> writes:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "craig_spaulding" 
> <craig_spaulding@y...> wrote:
> > Jeff,
> > 
> > I have several questions re your transfer curves technique:
> > 
> > 1) Can the black and white points be set in Photoshop instead of 
> the 
> > scanner after the step-edge has been scanned? I work with a digital 
> > camera and my scanner is marginal and I don't think the black and 
> > white points can be set in the software.
> 
> I've had better luck setting the b/w points during scanning than 
> setting in my image editing software (your results may vary).  I use 
> VueScan as my scanning software and have found the histogram feature 
> to be very good. (www.hamrick.com). I use Picture Windows as my image 
> editing software because I think its curves/histogram feature is the 
> best of any editing package (I also use it for a lot more reasons, 
> but that's another post) (www.dl-c.com). I also have and occassionly 
> use PhotoShop 6.0 

The curves/histogram feature in Picture Windows is just *such* a
beauty, isn't it?  I also rather like being able to do *everything* in
16-bit-per-channel mode.  

But I miss layers, and I most super especially miss adjustment
layers.  I like non-destructive editing.

> 9)  Iterate until you are satisfied (or run out of paper or ink).

Now *there's* a realistic assessment!

I've really gotta try a partitioned flow.  It bothers me that my black
ink bottle goes down *so much* faster than the others. 

Um, you mentioned a "quad purge image", implying that it printed
things using the 4 inks individually.  Got an image to offer?  I'm
assuming it would look like bars in each of the CMYK colors?  
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b@...  /  Ghugle: the Fannish Ghod of Queries
 John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net
        Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/
                 Photos: http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/

[Digital BW] Re: Transfer curves -- what's desirable?

2002-05-05 by jrandall1149

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., David Dyer-Bennet <dd-
b@d...> wrote:
<snip>
> Um, you mentioned a "quad purge image", implying that it printed
> things using the 4 inks individually.  Got an image to offer?  

If you don't want to create them yourself go to the MIS site.

www.inksupply.com


> I'm assuming it would look like bars in each of the CMYK colors?  

Correct.

Jeff Randall

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