Digital BW, The Print

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Michael J. Kravit 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 12:14 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Silver/Platinum



  I was wondering if anyone would object to the discussion of making 
  digital negatives for silver and platinum printing. I know that we very 
  often get into long and detailed discussions on inks and printers, but I 
  would thing that the production of digital negatives made on ink jet 
  printers might be appropriate.

  I would be interested in what others are doing, their work flows, their 
  successes and their failures.

  My platinum darkroom is just about complete. I am waiting for the sink 
  and UV exposure vacuum frame to be delivered in the next couple of 
  weeks.  In the meantime I am beginning to experiment with digital 
  negatives.

  On another note, if anyone will be passing through the West Palm Beach 
  International Airport, there will be a 4 month exhibition of art  based 
  upon the theme "Florida Fauna".  I have had two 18"x18" carbon pigment 
  prints selected as part of the exhibition. They were printed on the 
  Epson 7000 using MIS FS quads and the Image print IP4 RIP.

  Mike


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul Roark 
  To: DigitalB&WPrint 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:47 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Silver/Platinum


  Mike,

  I think it is very appropriate that digital negatives be discussed on this
  list.  In fact, I have had some contact with another list member who is
  interested in a dye-based, Piezo-compatible quad so that we could use the
  Piezo driver to output the digital negatives.  I think that could be a very
  interesting way to go if it works.

  I agree that the traditional -- silver and platinum -- prints are probably
  going to be preferred by a number of galleries and collectors for some time.

  Actually, I have something of an ulterior motive.  If we have a reasonable
  way to make the "traditional" products with our digital files, I think it'll
  focus the "anti-digital" arguments into the categories of, first, the
  objections based on longevity (really an objective problem we can deal with)
  and, second, those objections that are based on the mere fact of a digital
  step.  Frankly, I think a lot of the objections are in this category.
  However, if they can't tell the difference, and if we simply label out
  prints as "silver" or "platinum," it should make life a little more
  difficult for the anti-digital bigots.

  Paul
  http://www.PaulRoark.com





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> 
> I was wondering if anyone would object to the discussion of making 
> digital negatives for silver and platinum printing. I know that we very 
> often get into long and detailed discussions on inks and printers, but I 
> would thing that the production of digital negatives made on ink jet 
> printers might be appropriate.
> 
> I would be interested in what others are doing, their work flows, their 
> successes and their failures.
> 
> My platinum darkroom is just about complete. I am waiting for the sink 
> and UV exposure vacuum frame to be delivered in the next couple of 
> weeks.  In the meantime I am beginning to experiment with digital 
> negatives.
> 
> On another note, if anyone will be passing through the West Palm Beach 
> International Airport, there will be a 4 month exhibition of art  based 
> upon the theme "Florida Fauna".  I have had two 18"x18" carbon pigment 
> prints selected as part of the exhibition. They were printed on the 
> Epson 7000 using MIS FS quads and the Image print IP4 RIP.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other 
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them 
> short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various 
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> 
> 
>  
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> 
>

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., lrryr@a... wrote:
> > The only transparency material out there (that I know 
> > of) that will hold enough ink to get the density's 
> > needed is Pictorico OHP.
> > 
> > The problems are:
> > 
> > 1. Zero dot gain, any inconsistancy in the printing 
> > sticks out like a sore thumb, the dither patterns (and 
> > the peizo pattern) are painfully apparent.
> 
> Larry,
> 
> So what you are saying is that the ink does not spread amd absorb 
> into the media to hide imperfections. I guess this is where the very 
> small print head nozzles would be beneficial. 
> 
> A friend of mine is making 4x5 negatives on Pictorico OHP utilizing 
> Berkholder's methods. There are two ways he makes desktop negatives. 
> One is using color fill and the other is called something else. It 
> is this second method that Tom says works the best. His 4x5 Platinum 
> prints look as nice as his prints made from the duplicate negatives.
> 
> The texture and properties of the fine art watercolor papers that 
> are coated with Platinum salts are much like the digital papers. The 
> inherently hide the imperfections. The platinum process is self 
> masking. That is the emulsion becomes less sensitive to exposure as 
> time goes on. So it is possible to gain detail in the highlights 
> without the risk of blocking up the shadow detail. I am not sure how 
> this helps, but I thought I would throw it onto the table.
> 
> > 2. The dark end of the negative has an extreme image % 
> > vs print density curve that needs to be straightened. 
> > this is true with both the epson driver and the peizo 
> > driver. Applying a correction in curves with this 
> > results in noticeable posterization. If this could be 
> > handled in 16 bits in a rip, that may take care of it.
> 
> I don't see why it could not. In fact, using CMYK inks to make the 
> negatives as colorized monochrome images, a standard RIP could be 
> used to take advantage of the RIPs dither, ink channel, reduction 
> and adjustment capabilities.
> 
> > I'm glad to hear others are interested in pursueing this.
> 
> I think that unless someone is having great success with making 
> negatives on a 1280, or 10000 and is willing to share the successes 
> publicly, this may be a long arduous process.
> 
> I will eventually ask Martin and Antonis to include a digital 
> negative section in the Files area as a database so that we can all 
> share our triumphs and failures. 
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other 
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
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>

On Wednesday, May 1, 2002, at 05:22 PM, lrryr@... wrote:

> One other thing worth mentioning, I believe, but havnt
> substantiated, that the peizo inks are more opaque to uv
> than a densitometer will tell you. I've set my negatives
> density's to 1.0 or so on my densitometer and I believe
> I get pretty good range on my ziatypes. Unfortunately my
> time available for this is so sporadic I havnt arrived
> at any definite conclusions.
>
> Also I've written an excel spreadsheet that does the
> nescessary interpolation for generating new transfer
> functions or curves after printing and reading a step
> wedge. I'll put it up on the web for download when I get
> home tonight.
>
> Larry
>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., lrryr@a... wrote:
>>> The only transparency material out there (that I know
>>> of) that will hold enough ink to get the density's
>>> needed is Pictorico OHP.
>>>
>>> The problems are:
>>>
>>> 1. Zero dot gain, any inconsistancy in the printing
>>> sticks out like a sore thumb, the dither patterns (and
>>> the peizo pattern) are painfully apparent.
>>
>> Larry,
>>
>> So what you are saying is that the ink does not spread amd absorb
>> into the media to hide imperfections. I guess this is where the very
>> small print head nozzles would be beneficial.
>>
>> A friend of mine is making 4x5 negatives on Pictorico OHP utilizing
>> Berkholder's methods. There are two ways he makes desktop negatives.
>> One is using color fill and the other is called something else. It
>> is this second method that Tom says works the best. His 4x5 Platinum
>> prints look as nice as his prints made from the duplicate negatives.
>>
>> The texture and properties of the fine art watercolor papers that
>> are coated with Platinum salts are much like the digital papers. The
>> inherently hide the imperfections. The platinum process is self
>> masking. That is the emulsion becomes less sensitive to exposure as
>> time goes on. So it is possible to gain detail in the highlights
>> without the risk of blocking up the shadow detail. I am not sure how
>> this helps, but I thought I would throw it onto the table.
>>
>>> 2. The dark end of the negative has an extreme image %
>>> vs print density curve that needs to be straightened.
>>> this is true with both the epson driver and the peizo
>>> driver. Applying a correction in curves with this
>>> results in noticeable posterization. If this could be
>>> handled in 16 bits in a rip, that may take care of it.
>>
>> I don't see why it could not. In fact, using CMYK inks to make the
>> negatives as colorized monochrome images, a standard RIP could be
>> used to take advantage of the RIPs dither, ink channel, reduction
>> and adjustment capabilities.
>>
>>> I'm glad to hear others are interested in pursueing this.
>>
>> I think that unless someone is having great success with making
>> negatives on a 1280, or 10000 and is willing to share the successes
>> publicly, this may be a long arduous process.
>>
>> I will eventually ask Martin and Antonis to include a digital
>> negative section in the Files area as a database so that we can all
>> share our triumphs and failures.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls 
>> and other
>> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>>
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>
>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>> - Include your full name with your message.
>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
>> keep them
>> short.
>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
>> header.
>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
>> "flames."
>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
>> various
>> resources on the homepage.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls 
> and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
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>
>
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>
>

> Roy,
> 
> >...I'd much rather have something I can do myself.
> 
> Definitely.
> 
> >...what transparency material to use.
> 
> See http://www.pictorico.com/roll.asp
> 
> Paul 
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other 
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various 
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> 
> 
>  
> 
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> 
>

On Thursday, May 2, 2002, at 10:03 AM, marktuckerdotcom wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>> However, if they can't tell the difference, and if we simply label
> out
>> prints as "silver" or "platinum," it should make life a little more
>> difficult for the anti-digital bigots.
>
> Paul,
>
> I think you're right on track here. Trust me, as soon as these
> gallery people see any of the words "inkjet", or "Piezo", or
> anything remotely resembling digital, they cross their arms and
> you're out the door. I expect this to continue, if not even get
> worse.
>
> Since I only use digital technology, sadly I am not even exploring
> the gallery/print sales thing any more. It's a dead end street.
> (Whether or not it's based in fact, because as we know, and Bill
> Clinton knows, perception is much more strong that actual
> reality).
>
> So I'm going back to the commercial world.
>
> So, for you guys, I agree, that as long as the PRINT is silver, or
> platinum, or anything but inkjet, I think you're fine. The final print,
> paper, is all they seem to care about. How you arrive at that end
> is your own business, but just make sure the print is silver.
> Otherwise, I guarantee you, you're in for a hard fight.
>
> Just my opinion. I might be wrong. But I've seen it in the
> trenches.
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls 
> and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
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>
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>

> from the artists' themselves, from their own personal websites. 
> That way, you eliminate the snooty gallery person at the front 
> door.

> Julian, you've been holding out! Where are your dead-naked-famly-
> friends Holga pictures?
> 
> Tim