Digital BW, The Print

To everyone,

I did not mean to cause such a jerk reaction. I do not have any differences with Mike personally. I do not even know who he is other than by reading his postings. I took his remark personally about my communicating something that was factual as "not quite true". I asked him for an apology, but I should not have characterized him as an outright lie. He just didn't know the facts. I wish I had presented the facts by themselves.

I could care less about that now and do not need an apology from him. I want instead to apologize to the community for reacting the way I did.

It made me stop and search the web this morning for info about lists, and reactions and flames (hopefully we won't have the latter here!) 

I would hope that this list should not be dominated by individuals who are above and beyond reproach. Opinions and lists are a very odd phenomena. There is ample evidence that it brings out ego trips in major ways. I think that it this type of activity that keeps a list dominated by a few and prevents the other 1400 subscribers from writing.

Perhaps some good will come out of this event. I think that opinions which are tainted by individual experience and that are offered repeatedly as the gospel is a disservice to the community. Lists are always breeding points for dissatisfaction. And ample evidence shows that this is also the dominating force on these lists. It is believed that keeping it alive keeps the list alive. However, these forces often close down those with good things to say and are in opposition to the force. Instead of encouraging particpation by everyone, the force discourages it. And studies show that the list usually disintegrates. At least this is what the studies show. 

I am sorry I did not do all my homework so I can not remember who the list owner is here. But they are supposed to try and keep order if they want a truly open forum and encourage diverse opinions especially from new posters. Otherwise a new list will start up under the premise of being open and supercede the previous.

I do not think that any of us should point fingers and blame. But we can all recognize that everyone in this medium is met with success or failure or struggles in between. This is the same for all products in all industry. Ford can not always finish First On Race Day, sometimes its Fix or Repair Daily.

Does anyone remember what Thumper's father told him in the movie "Bambi"?

"IF YOU DON"T HAVE SOMETHING NICE TO SAY, DON"T SAY ANYTHING AT ALLLLLLLL"

Brian


__________________________________________________________________
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The Buddhists, I believe, have a rule that goes something like: Say a thing
only if it is true, necessary, and kind.

More anon,
David

-----Original Message-----
From: MagerabamB@... [mailto:MagerabamB@...]
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 2:25 PM
To: digitalblackandwhitetheprint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] apology to community


To everyone,

I did not mean to cause such a jerk reaction. I do not have any differences
with Mike personally. I do not even know who he is other than by reading his
postings. I took his remark personally about my communicating something that
was factual as "not quite true". I asked him for an apology, but I should
not have characterized him as an outright lie. He just didn't know the
facts. I wish I had presented the facts by themselves.

I could care less about that now and do not need an apology from him. I want
instead to apologize to the community for reacting the way I did.

It made me stop and search the web this morning for info about lists, and
reactions and flames (hopefully we won't have the latter here!)

I would hope that this list should not be dominated by individuals who are
above and beyond reproach. Opinions and lists are a very odd phenomena.
There is ample evidence that it brings out ego trips in major ways. I think
that it this type of activity that keeps a list dominated by a few and
prevents the other 1400 subscribers from writing.

Perhaps some good will come out of this event. I think that opinions which
are tainted by individual experience and that are offered repeatedly as the
gospel is a disservice to the community. Lists are always breeding points
for dissatisfaction. And ample evidence shows that this is also the
dominating force on these lists. It is believed that keeping it alive keeps
the list alive. However, these forces often close down those with good
things to say and are in opposition to the force. Instead of encouraging
particpation by everyone, the force discourages it. And studies show that
the list usually disintegrates. At least this is what the studies show.

I am sorry I did not do all my homework so I can not remember who the list
owner is here. But they are supposed to try and keep order if they want a
truly open forum and encourage diverse opinions especially from new posters.
Otherwise a new list will start up under the premise of being open and
supercede the previous.

I do not think that any of us should point fingers and blame. But we can all
recognize that everyone in this medium is met with success or failure or
struggles in between. This is the same for all products in all industry.
Ford can not always finish First On Race Day, sometimes its Fix or Repair
Daily.

Does anyone remember what Thumper's father told him in the movie "Bambi"?

"IF YOU DON"T HAVE SOMETHING NICE TO SAY, DON"T SAY ANYTHING AT ALLLLLLLL"

Brian


__________________________________________________________________
Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas.
Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape!
http://shopnow.netscape.com/

Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at
http://webmail.netscape.com/



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

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- Include your full name with your message.
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- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
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- Complete your Yahoo profile.
- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "David J. Bookbinder" <
david_bookbinder@s...> wrote:

> The Buddhists, I believe, have a rule that goes something like: 
Say a thing
> only if it is true, necessary, and kind.
> 
> More anon,
> David


David,

Thanks for your thoughtful post. I believe it is called right speak 
or something like that. It would be wonderful if lists could attain a 
certain attunement that allowed this kind of expression.

Probably there would be fewer messages. But they would be 
more meaningful.

Brian

Brian,

Well said, and your gentlemanly attributes are admirable.

Give me a call in the office and i would be pleased to speak with you 
personally any time to discuss any of your issues or concerns. No one 
wants to upset or alienate anyone else.

Thanks for participating in this list.

mike

On Thursday, May 9, 2002, at 02:24 PM, MagerabamB@... wrote:

> To everyone,
>
> I did not mean to cause such a jerk reaction. I do not have any 
> differences with Mike personally. I do not even know who he is other 
> than by reading his postings. I took his remark personally about my 
> communicating something that was factual as "not quite true". I asked 
> him for an apology, but I should not have characterized him as an 
> outright lie. He just didn't know the facts. I wish I had presented the 
> facts by themselves.
>
> I could care less about that now and do not need an apology from him. I 
> want instead to apologize to the community for reacting the way I did.
>
> It made me stop and search the web this morning for info about lists, 
> and reactions and flames (hopefully we won't have the latter here!)
>
> I would hope that this list should not be dominated by individuals who 
> are above and beyond reproach. Opinions and lists are a very odd 
> phenomena. There is ample evidence that it brings out ego trips in 
> major ways. I think that it this type of activity that keeps a list 
> dominated by a few and prevents the other 1400 subscribers from writing.
>
> Perhaps some good will come out of this event. I think that opinions 
> which are tainted by individual experience and that are offered 
> repeatedly as the gospel is a disservice to the community. Lists are 
> always breeding points for dissatisfaction. And ample evidence shows 
> that this is also the dominating force on these lists. It is believed 
> that keeping it alive keeps the list alive. However, these forces often 
> close down those with good things to say and are in opposition to the 
> force. Instead of encouraging particpation by everyone, the force 
> discourages it. And studies show that the list usually disintegrates. 
> At least this is what the studies show.
>
> I am sorry I did not do all my homework so I can not remember who the 
> list owner is here. But they are supposed to try and keep order if they 
> want a truly open forum and encourage diverse opinions especially from 
> new posters. Otherwise a new list will start up under the premise of 
> being open and supercede the previous.
>
> I do not think that any of us should point fingers and blame. But we 
> can all recognize that everyone in this medium is met with success or 
> failure or struggles in between. This is the same for all products in 
> all industry. Ford can not always finish First On Race Day, sometimes 
> its Fix or Repair Daily.
>
> Does anyone remember what Thumper's father told him in the movie 
> "Bambi"?
>
> "IF YOU DON"T HAVE SOMETHING NICE TO SAY, DON"T SAY ANYTHING AT 
> ALLLLLLLL"
>
> Brian
>
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. 
> Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! 
> http://shopnow.netscape.com/
>
> Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at 
> http://webmail.netscape.com/
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls 
> and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
> header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
> various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

To everyone,

>I did not mean to cause such a jerk reaction. I do not have any differences 
with >Mike personally. I do not even know who he is other than by reading his 
postings. I >took his remark personally about my communicating something that 
was factual as >"not quite true". I asked him for an apology, but I should 
not have characterized him >as an outright lie. He just didn't know the 
facts. I wish I had presented the facts by >themselves.

Well, then, be accountable for what you say on this list. Your comments and 
actions DO affect others.Think before you type.
I think you DO have differences with Mike, and like most adults, you're not 
able to put them  in perspective nor deal with them in a healthy way. 

>I want instead to apologize to the community for reacting the way I did.

You should apologize to the group AND Mike. What you stirred up with your 
petty arguments is unbelievable. Apologizing is the RIGHT thing to do. Then 
move on.

>I think that it this type of activity that keeps a list dominated by a few 
and prevents the other 1400 subscribers from writing.

How, exactly is anyone keeping you or anyone else from contibuting. I've 
never contibuted, until now, but I've never felt like I couldn't. I submit, 
YOU are keeping YOU from contibuting because you are intimidated by people 
like Mike, who has a lot of experience and knowledge to pass along to the 
rest of us. I haven't contributed anything to this list until now. Just been 
soaking up wise words. Your idiotic and childish little reaction to something 
said here on the list is what prompted me to write. I'm doing it for selfish 
reasons, by the way. I want people like Mike to stay so I can LEARN. You need 
to toughen up and grow up a bit. 

>Lists are always breeding points for dissatisfaction.

Maybe that's true for you. Not me. Speak for yourself. If that is really true 
for you, maybe you should move on to a different list. 

>However, these forces often close down those with good things to say and are 
in opposition to the force. 

Who or what are these mysterious forces you speak of ?  Maybe demons of your 
own making? This list or any list is alive because there is a free flow of 
ideas. Once again, no one is keeping you from contibuting. No one but you. 
Your problems here, are of your own making. The qusetion is, will you be wise 
enough to see that?

>But they are supposed to try and keep order if they want a truly open forum 
and encourage diverse opinions especially from new posters. Otherwise a new 
list will start up under the premise of being open and supercede the previous.

AGAIN, being a victim and giving away your power. Unbelievable. How about YOU 
helping keep order by not taking shots anyone on this list from now on? If 
you can't, maybe you can start your own list and be all by yourself. Then you 
can really tell everyone (yourself) how things should be.

>I do not think that any of us should point fingers and blame. But we can all 
>recognize that everyone in this medium is met with success or failure or 
struggles >in between. This is the same for all products in all industry. 
Ford can not always >finish First On Race Day, sometimes its Fix or Repair 
Daily.

I don't know what the hell this means except the 1st line. You ask us not to 
do what you, yourself did! Amazing. 

>"IF YOU DON"T HAVE SOMETHING NICE TO SAY, DON"T SAY ANYTHING AT >ALLLLLLLL"

Well, isn't that nice. You take shots at Mike in a childish and idiotic 
manner, then send this. Beautiful. Do you know what hypocrisy means? Practise 
what you preach.

Good luck with your new list. We'll be doing fine right here, debating things 
in a healthy, adult way and having fun. Which is the main thing you know. Or 
did you forget?

David


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

DaMoenk@... wrote, unfortunately,

>To everyone,

on the list, admonishing and psychoanalyzing Brian in response to the 
apology Brian sent the list. DaMoenk's post seems to me another 
example of inappropriate personal remarks and incivility not 
compatible with the spirit of community the list needs. And I hope 
Brian will resist any temptation he might feel to respond in kind, at 
least on the list.

Sam

.... one should bury the hatchet


     Bernd






--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Sam A. McCandless" 
<samcc@v...> wrote:
> DaMoenk@a... wrote, unfortunately,
> 
> >To everyone,
> 
> on the list, admonishing and psychoanalyzing Brian in 
response to the 
> apology Brian sent the list. DaMoenk's post seems to me 
another 
> example of inappropriate personal remarks and incivility not 
> compatible with the spirit of community the list needs. And I 
hope 
> Brian will resist any temptation he might feel to respond in 
kind, at 

> least on the list.
> 
> Sam

I, too, found DaMoenk's remarks irritating, inappropriate, and 
inflamatory. I hope we can let this subject, at least in its 
current incarnation, drop off the list.

- David

= = = Original message = = =

DaMoenk@... wrote, unfortunately,

>To everyone,

on the list, admonishing and psychoanalyzing Brian in response 
to the 
apology Brian sent the list. DaMoenk's post seems to me another 

example of inappropriate personal remarks and incivility not 

compatible with the spirit of community the list needs. And I 
hope 
Brian will resist any temptation he might feel to respond in 
kind, at 
least on the list.

Sam



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The 
page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- Include your full name with your message.
- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
to keep them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or "flames."
- Complete your Yahoo profile.
- Before posting a question, search the message archives and 
the various resources on the homepage. 


 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


___________________________________________________________
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david, I sent sam an offline e-mail, telling him, that I fully aggreed 
to his statement, but nevertheless I´ve got the feeling, it was 
better to stop arguing now.
I understand your feeling.
Bernd



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., 
<david_bookbinder@s...> wrote:
> I, too, found DaMoenk's remarks irritating, inappropriate, and 
> inflamatory. I hope we can let this subject, at least in its 
> current incarnation, drop off the list.
> 
> - David
> 
> = = = Original message = = =
> 
> DaMoenk@a... wrote, unfortunately,
> 
> >To everyone,
> 
> on the list, admonishing and psychoanalyzing Brian in 
response 
> to the 
> apology Brian sent the list. DaMoenk's post seems to me 
another 
> 
> example of inappropriate personal remarks and incivility not 
> 
> compatible with the spirit of community the list needs. And I 
> hope 
> Brian will resist any temptation he might feel to respond in 
> kind, at 
> least on the list.
> 
> Sam
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, 
Bookmarks, 
> Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. 
The 
> page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages 
> to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the 
subject 
> header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
> or &quot;flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and 
> the various resources on the homepage. 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
> 
__________________________________________________
_________
> Sent by ePrompter, the premier email notification software.
> Free download at http://www.ePrompter.com.

What??!!??   Did I miss something??!!??   Someone say 
something about me???   

Wait, you guys are joking me again and I'm not falling for it!

;)

Brian




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Sam A. McCandless" <samcc@v...> wrote:
> DaMoenk@a... wrote, unfortunately,
> 
> >To everyone,
> 
> on the list, admonishing and psychoanalyzing Brian in 
response to the 
> apology Brian sent the list. DaMoenk's post seems to me 
another 
> example of inappropriate personal remarks and incivility not 
> compatible with the spirit of community the list needs. And I 
hope 
> Brian will resist any temptation he might feel to respond in 
kind, at 

> least on the list.
> 
> Sam

Mike can stick up for himself, obviously, but Thumper's Mother needs 
someone to stand up for her.  She was the one who said "If you don't 
have something nice to say, don't say anything at all."  
(Hence, "TMWR" = Thumper's Mother Was Right)

Not to be confused with Alice Longworth Roosevelt (1884-1980), "If 
you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to 
me."


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., MagerabamB@n... wrote:
> To everyone,
> 
> 
> Does anyone remember what Thumper's father told him in the 
movie "Bambi"?
> 
> "IF YOU DON"T HAVE SOMETHING NICE TO SAY, DON"T SAY ANYTHING AT 
ALLLLLLLL"

> 
> Brian
>

The only thing I've been trying to argue for is civility, but maybe 
tranquility is even more important right now, and in any case I 
appreciate Bernd's interest and concern, so I'll move it off the 
list, at least for now.

Sam McCandless      samcc@...

>david, I sent sam an offline e-mail, telling him, that I fully aggreed
>to his statement, but nevertheless I´ve got the feeling, it was
>better to stop arguing now.
>I understand your feeling.
>Bernd

Billy,

Not quite true.

His mother reminded Thumper of something that his father 
would say.  Sure it comes with authority, but I consider this a 
"throw away" line as you usually waste more time trying to get 
the little bunny to remember his manners by remembering 
something his father said about his manners.

His father used several expressions plus another saying for 
something else. Still more effective than his mother's choice 
which was always just a "THUMPER!"  Something his father will 
not do.

Brian

:)



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "billy_iverson" <
wiverson@c...> wrote:
> Mike can stick up for himself, obviously, but Thumper's Mother 
needs 
> someone to stand up for her.  She was the one who said "If 
you don't 
> have something nice to say, don't say anything at all."  
> (Hence, "TMWR" = Thumper's Mother Was Right)
> 
> Not to be confused with Alice Longworth Roosevelt (1884-
1980), "If 
> you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit 
next to 
> me."
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., MagerabamB@n... 
wrote:
> > To everyone,
> > 
> > 
> > Does anyone remember what Thumper's father told him in 
the 
> movie "Bambi"?
> > 
> > "IF YOU DON"T HAVE SOMETHING NICE TO SAY, DON"T 
SAY ANYTHING AT 

> ALLLLLLLL"
> > 
> > Brian
> >

A friend of mine who lives in Brookline (near Washington Square on 
the Green Line) won a photo contest and has gotten ambitious. She 
wants to find a good place (for processing and printing) she can take 
her negative/print film on "the T", i.e., not to have to drive it to 
the suburbs nor to trust it to the mail. I'd appreciate any 
suggestions. Thanks.

Sam McCandless             samcc@...

I use ColorTek in Kenmore Square for a lot of my processing, but not
for printing. 

Friends of mine use Zona in Cambridge and Spectrum in Boston for
printing. (I do my own printing, except for portrait/wedding work,
which I send to UltraColor in Watertown.) I still have a grudge
against Zona for sending a photographer to jail years ago because she
brought in photos of her baby (naked) for them to print - but friends
swear by their work.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Sam A. McCandless"
<samcc@v...> wrote:

> A friend of mine who lives in Brookline (near Washington Square on 
> the Green Line) won a photo contest and has gotten ambitious. She 
> wants to find a good place (for processing and printing) she can take 
> her negative/print film on "the T", i.e., not to have to drive it to 
> the suburbs nor to trust it to the mail. I'd appreciate any 
> suggestions. Thanks.
> 
> Sam McCandless             samcc@v...

Try Colortek on Atlantic Avenue; right across the street from South Station.

STEPHEN    JENNINGS
    P h o t o g r a p h e r
       Cambridge, MA
sgjennin@...

> From: "Sam A. McCandless" <samcc@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 08:00:37 -0700
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] OT: Boston labs "on the T"
> 
> A friend of mine who lives in Brookline (near Washington Square on
> the Green Line) won a photo contest and has gotten ambitious. She
> wants to find a good place (for processing and printing) she can take
> her negative/print film on "the T", i.e., not to have to drive it to
> the suburbs nor to trust it to the mail. I'd appreciate any
> suggestions. Thanks.
> 
> Sam McCandless             samcc@...
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>