Digital BW, The Print

In past posts I had said that in my own experience I found no evidence 
of strong metamerism in the Lyson SG inkset, while others claimed to 
have found the same..

Well, as Dave Tobie indicated, paper choice is key..

On Torchon I get STRONG metamerism with the SGs..  In fact if I go from 
tungsten to daylight comparing a sepia-toned SG to a warm MIS VM print: 
 in tungsten, the SG is the reddish print and the MIS VM greenish/olive 
in comparison, in daylight the MIS is still greenish, but the SG goes so 
green it now looks more olive than the VM print..

So, it looks like the metamerism is of the SGs is strongest on cast 
coated papers, while on microporous and more traditional poly coated 
papers, as well as some others the SGs perform beautifully... I'm 
guessing the dyes do not properly penetrate the clay cast...

What this means in practice is that the SGs perform as a great 
complement to the MIS pigment inks and vice versa...  The papers one set 
performs poorly on are the strong suit of the other..

NOW I am REALY glad I have both sets running!

 
-- 
[Keith]
 
 

****************************************************************
CONFIDENTIALITY & COPYRIGHT NOTICE:
This e-mail message, including attachments and contents, is © Copyright, 
Keith Krebs, 2001-2002, All Rights Reserved. It is expressly for the 
sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and 
privileged information. Absent the express written authorization of the 
author, any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, transfer, or 
distribution is explicitly prohibited and taken at your own risk. If you 
are not, or are unsure whether you are, the intended recipient, please 
contact the sender immediately and destroy all copies of the original 
message. Violations will be prosecuted to the FULL extent allowed under 
applicable civil and criminal law. Imagery published or distributed in 
violation of these conditions shall be subject to a $1500/image 
liquidated damages charge, in addition to any applicable Copyright 
violation penalties.

[POV IMage Service Banner]
****************************************************************
{ The P.O.V. Image Service Website is still at http://www.p-o-v-image.com/ }



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Interesting observation.  I've always assumed that the Hahnemuhle papers did
so well with the pigmented inks because of the presence of dye in them.  If
you switch to a 100% pigment set (like the MIS Double Density Black from the
MIS Perpetual Set), now Museo and Eclipse Satine are the dmax winners and
the Hahnemuhle papers come in a distant second...this is exact opposite of
the performance with Cone or MIS FS or VM inks.

I'd be really interested to know what happens with metamerism with the SG
set with either Museo and Eclipse...do you have any?  How are you
profiling/using the SG's...do you apply curves or is there a driver that
handles them?  

Robert

On 5/15/02 12:12 PM, "Editor P.O.V. Image Service" <editor@...>
wrote:

> In past posts I had said that in my own experience I found no evidence
> of strong metamerism in the Lyson SG inkset, while others claimed to
> have found the same..
> 
> Well, as Dave Tobie indicated, paper choice is key..
> 
> On Torchon I get STRONG metamerism with the SGs..  In fact if I go from
> tungsten to daylight comparing a sepia-toned SG to a warm MIS VM print:
> in tungsten, the SG is the reddish print and the MIS VM greenish/olive
> in comparison, in daylight the MIS is still greenish, but the SG goes so
> green it now looks more olive than the VM print..
> 
> So, it looks like the metamerism is of the SGs is strongest on cast
> coated papers, while on microporous and more traditional poly coated
> papers, as well as some others the SGs perform beautifully... I'm
> guessing the dyes do not properly penetrate the clay cast...
> 
> What this means in practice is that the SGs perform as a great
> complement to the MIS pigment inks and vice versa...  The papers one set
> performs poorly on are the strong suit of the other..
> 
> NOW I am REALY glad I have both sets running!
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Robert Morrison wrote:

>
> I'd be really interested to know what happens with metamerism with the SG
> set with either Museo and Eclipse...do you have any? 

Nope,...  I have heard, strangely, that the SGs perform quite well with 
the 100% PhotoRag..  Does anyone know if there is any difference in the 
cast coating on theses papers?  If true, and the cast coatings are 
similar, we may actually be seeing some weird effect of the actual 
dye/paper fiber combo or perhaps an effect of the dye with a brightener 
(assuming one of these papers has brighteners...)

> How are you
> profiling/using the SG's...

Custom written profiles...

> do you apply curves or is there a driver that
> handles them? 

Standard EPSON driver with all color management turned off, I print to 
the profiles..

To say the least, I was shocked by the results, but not at all upset, 
given that the VMs are my preferred inkset for matte media...


[Keith]
 
 

****************************************************************
CONFIDENTIALITY & COPYRIGHT NOTICE:
This e-mail message, including attachments and contents, is © Copyright, 
Keith Krebs, 2001-2002, All Rights Reserved. It is expressly for the 
sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and 
privileged information. Absent the express written authorization of the 
author, any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, transfer, or 
distribution is explicitly prohibited and taken at your own risk. If you 
are not, or are unsure whether you are, the intended recipient, please 
contact the sender immediately and destroy all copies of the original 
message. Violations will be prosecuted to the FULL extent allowed under 
applicable civil and criminal law. Imagery published or distributed in 
violation of these conditions shall be subject to a $1500/image 
liquidated damages charge, in addition to any applicable Copyright 
violation penalties.

[POV IMage Service Banner]
****************************************************************
{ The P.O.V. Image Service Website is still at http://www.p-o-v-image.com/ }




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 5/15/02 9:20 PM, "Editor P.O.V. Image Service" <editor@...>
wrote:

> Robert Morrison wrote:
> 
>> 
>> I'd be really interested to know what happens with metamerism with the SG
>> set with either Museo and Eclipse...do you have any?
> 
> Nope,...  I have heard, strangely, that the SGs perform quite well with
> the 100% PhotoRag...Does anyone know if there is any difference in the
> cast coating on theses papers?  If true, and the cast coatings are
> similar, we may actually be seeing some weird effect of the actual
> dye/paper fiber combo or perhaps an effect of the dye with a brightener
> (assuming one of these papers has brighteners...)

All Hahnemuhle papers have brigheners except Cone's wells river.  I
understand that all of coatings are supposed to be the same...but Hahnemuhle
is notoriously poor on quality control...huge variance in surface from
beginning to end of run...so you guess is as good as mine what the
difference might be.  Its also possible that the person that was using photo
rag was not looking critically for metamerism when they said they were good.


> 
>> How are you
>> profiling/using the SG's...
> 
> Custom written profiles...

Using a RBG or CMYK workflow?  Do you use profilerpro with rbg...just
printing with the toned ink?
 
>> do you apply curves or is there a driver that
>> handles them? 
> 
> Standard EPSON driver with all color management turned off, I print to
> the profiles..
> 
> To say the least, I was shocked by the results, but not at all upset,
> given that the VMs are my preferred inkset for matte media...
> 
What kind of a dmax do you get with luster papers like epson premium luster?

Robert


----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Hi
I spoke to the people at Lyson in Germany  last week. They said that the 
combination of lyson inks and paper are set up to have neutral results 
without metamerism with the use of "Normlicht" which to you means 5000°k. 
Which basically means outside this temperature you will get some form of 
metamerism. The coatings of other papers are different therefore you will 
have different effects with different papers at different light temperatures. 
Each of us has a different tolerance to what we find acceptable.
Regards,
Paul Mapstone
Cologne Germany

My understanding is that Lyson's 'Soft Fine Art' is 'Torchon' with a 
Lyson coating.  Did your experience relate to 'Torchon' or 'Soft Fine 
Art'? If to 'Torchon' it would be interesting to note if the 
metamerism in your eyes is comparable or whether Lyson's profiles are 
designed for 'Soft Fine Art' and other Lyson materials, as I was told 
by the Lyson distributor in the UK.


Colin Conway
 --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Editor P.O.V. Image 
Service" <editor@p...> wrote:
> In past posts I had said that in my own experience I found no 
evidence 
> of strong metamerism in the Lyson SG inkset, while others claimed 
to 
> have found the same..
> 
> Well, as Dave Tobie indicated, paper choice is key..
> 
> On Torchon I get STRONG metamerism with the SGs..  In fact if I go 
from 
> tungsten to daylight comparing a sepia-toned SG to a warm MIS VM 
print: 
>  in tungsten, the SG is the reddish print and the MIS VM 
greenish/olive 
> in comparison, in daylight the MIS is still greenish, but the SG 
goes so 
> green it now looks more olive than the VM print..
> 
> So, it looks like the metamerism is of the SGs is strongest on cast 
> coated papers, while on microporous and more traditional poly 
coated 
> papers, as well as some others the SGs perform beautifully... I'm 
> guessing the dyes do not properly penetrate the clay cast...
> 
> What this means in practice is that the SGs perform as a great 
> complement to the MIS pigment inks and vice versa...  The papers 
one set 
> performs poorly on are the strong suit of the other..
> 
> NOW I am REALY glad I have both sets running!
> 
>  
> -- 
> [Keith]
>  
>  
> 
> ****************************************************************
> CONFIDENTIALITY & COPYRIGHT NOTICE:
> This e-mail message, including attachments and contents, is © 
Copyright, 
> Keith Krebs, 2001-2002, All Rights Reserved. It is expressly for 
the 
> sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and 
> privileged information. Absent the express written authorization of 
the 
> author, any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, transfer, or 
> distribution is explicitly prohibited and taken at your own risk. 
If you 
> are not, or are unsure whether you are, the intended recipient, 
please 
> contact the sender immediately and destroy all copies of the 
original 
> message. Violations will be prosecuted to the FULL extent allowed 
under 
> applicable civil and criminal law. Imagery published or distributed 
in 
> violation of these conditions shall be subject to a $1500/image 
> liquidated damages charge, in addition to any applicable Copyright 
> violation penalties.
> 
> [POV IMage Service Banner]
> ****************************************************************
> { The P.O.V. Image Service Website is still at http://www.p-o-v-
image.com/ }

> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paul Mapstone wrote

> I spoke to the people at Lyson in Germany  last week. They said that the
> combination of lyson inks and paper are set up to have neutral results
> without metamerism with the use of "Normlicht" which to you means 5000\ufffdk.
> Which basically means outside this temperature you will get some form of
> metamerism. The coatings of other papers are different therefore you will
> have different effects with different papers at different light temperatures.
> Each of us has a different tolerance to what we find acceptable.

Well, that's a very positive spin to put on the matter. I would translate the
Lyson people's statements into plain words like this: "when we developed
this product we ignored the problem of metamerism".

Of course, if Lyson sold the ink with a warning about this (perhaps "this
ink is suitable only for prints to be viewed under 5000\ufffdk lighting")...

Peter Marquis-Kyle

Peter Marquis-Kyle wrote:

>   I would translate the
> Lyson people's statements into plain words like this: "when we developed
> this product we ignored the problem of metamerism".
>
> Of course, if Lyson sold the ink with a warning about this (perhaps "this
> ink is suitable only for prints to be viewed under 5000°k lighting")...
>
>
Actually, on MicroPorous, Traditional Polymer coated, Gelatine, and 
uncoated papers, the metamersim is very small and certainly not 
objectionable..  It seems that only n certain cast coated papers is the 
metamerism truly apparent..

So, I think you go much too far to the negative in your appraisal..

It's like saying the pigment inks should carry a big "unsuitable for 
glossy media or any polymer coated media" notice... Either would be a 
ridiculous position.

Stop grinding your axe..




[Keith]
 
 

****************************************************************
CONFIDENTIALITY & COPYRIGHT NOTICE:
This e-mail message, including attachments and contents, is © Copyright, 
Keith Krebs, 2001-2002, All Rights Reserved. It is expressly for the 
sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and 
privileged information. Absent the express written authorization of the 
author, any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, transfer, or 
distribution is explicitly prohibited and taken at your own risk. If you 
are not, or are unsure whether you are, the intended recipient, please 
contact the sender immediately and destroy all copies of the original 
message. Violations will be prosecuted to the FULL extent allowed under 
applicable civil and criminal law. Imagery published or distributed in 
violation of these conditions shall be subject to a $1500/image 
liquidated damages charge, in addition to any applicable Copyright 
violation penalties.

[POV IMage Service Banner]
****************************************************************
{ The P.O.V. Image Service Website is still at http://www.p-o-v-image.com/ }




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 5/16/02 6:24:14 AM, petermk@... writes:

>Of course, if Lyson sold the ink with a warning about this (perhaps "this
>
>ink is suitable only for prints to be viewed under 5000°k lighting")...
 
Sounds a bit dramatic... and what warnings do you think the Epson 2000p 
should have shipped with?

C. David Tobie
Design Cooperative
CDTobie@designcoop.com

You got it Peter.  Metamerism is defined as changes in tone across different
light conditions...there is no such thing as no metamerism at one wavelength
(no crossover perhaps)! No Gallery that I have ever been in actually uses
5000°K lighting (its either traditional tungsten R lamps or halogen)...I can
just image telling a collector that bought a print..."oh...it will look fine
as long as you look at it under this special lamp"...that would go over
well.  So I would say the SG's are useless for fine art work.  It sounds
like Keith thinks they do well on proofing papers though...so they may be
useful for commercial uses.  The biggest problem seems to be the need to
profile though...that's a hassle compared to Piezo.

Robert

On 5/16/02 3:24 AM, "Peter Marquis-Kyle" <petermk@...> wrote:

> Paul Mapstone wrote
> 
>> I spoke to the people at Lyson in Germany  last week. They said that the
>> combination of lyson inks and paper are set up to have neutral results
>> without metamerism with the use of "Normlicht" which to you means 5000°k.
>> Which basically means outside this temperature you will get some form of
>> metamerism. The coatings of other papers are different therefore you will
>> have different effects with different papers at different light temperatures.
>> Each of us has a different tolerance to what we find acceptable.
> 
> Well, that's a very positive spin to put on the matter. I would translate the
> Lyson people's statements into plain words like this: "when we developed
> this product we ignored the problem of metamerism".
> 
> Of course, if Lyson sold the ink with a warning about this (perhaps "this
> ink is suitable only for prints to be viewed under 5000°k lighting")...
> 
> Peter Marquis-Kyle

On 5/16/02 3:36 AM, "Editor P.O.V. Image Service" <editor@...>
wrote:

> Actually, on MicroPorous, Traditional Polymer coated, Gelatine, and
> uncoated papers, the metamersim is very small and certainly not
> objectionable..  It seems that only n certain cast coated papers is the
> metamerism truly apparent..

What do you mean by traditional polymer coated...examples of papers please.
There are acid free archival gelatine papers...so I take that back.  What is
the dmax on an uncoated paper like Somerset Velvet?  The microporous papers
that I'm aware of are not acid free and usually gloss or luster papers.  So
whether the SG's are suitable for fine art printing literally comes down to
lightfastness.  Correct me if I'm wrong...but lyson tested for lightfastness
on a paper that the inks show poor metamerism on...correct?

Robert

On 5/16/02 5:49 AM, "CDTobie@..." <CDTobie@...> wrote:

> 
> In a message dated 5/16/02 6:24:14 AM, petermk@... writes:
> 
>> Of course, if Lyson sold the ink with a warning about this (perhaps "this
>> 
>> ink is suitable only for prints to be viewed under 5000°k lighting")...
> 
> Sounds a bit dramatic... and what warnings do you think the Epson 2000p
> should have shipped with?

Don't buy this printer...its slow...shows metamerism and has poor
gamut...but the inks last forever.  My apologies to anyone who bought one.

Actually, I don't think billing an ink set for use in commercial printing is
bad...its actually a huge part of the market.  But selling it as a fine art
option when it doesn't print acceptably on many of the major papers is
probably not a good idea.  Personally, I think the Epson 10000 is a great
commercial printer...but it is probably not suitable for someone who is
trying to make fine art color prints (definitely not fine art BW prints). I
think being honest is the key.  If you get poor metamerism on certain
papers...tell people they are not compatible...don't lie about what
metamerism is...or is not.

Robert


> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Robert Morrison wrote:

>   Correct me if I'm wrong...but lyson tested for lightfastness
> on a paper that the inks show poor metamerism on...correct?
>
That's a question beyond my ken..  I don't work for Lyson, so I have no 
clue what paper they used for testing..

As for your questions of D-max, etc..  I haven't set about D-max 
testing..  Remember, I'm not using them for fine-art prints, but 
predominantly when I need glossy output for commercial work... When I 
need fine-art prints I 99.5 % of the time would not be using a glossy 
 material.. So, for fine-art imagery, I use the 1270 and MIS_VM setup..

 


[Keith]
 
 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robert Morrison wrote:

>
>
> Using a RBG or CMYK workflow? 

RGB

> Do you use profilerpro with rbg...just
> printing with the toned ink?

actually ProfilerPlus did a very nice job once I made the adjustments to 
the original profile, it's pretty much tack on.. Have used it 
successfully with several media and the SGs..

>
>
>
> What kind of a dmax do you get with luster papers like epson premium 
> luster?
>

Godd question.. I don't have any premium luster around..  BUT, the 
blacks on Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl look mighty good..  I'd have to 
print a step wedge and read it from a scan to give you an accurate 
number.. No densitometer here..  I could snail mail you a step wedge 
might be interesting to print step wedges of varying tonality/warmth on 
a single sheet and see how much the Dmax varies..

[Keith]
 
 

****************************************************************
CONFIDENTIALITY & COPYRIGHT NOTICE:
This e-mail message, including attachments and contents, is © Copyright, 
Keith Krebs, 2001-2002, All Rights Reserved. It is expressly for the 
sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and 
privileged information. Absent the express written authorization of the 
author, any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, transfer, or 
distribution is explicitly prohibited and taken at your own risk. If you 
are not, or are unsure whether you are, the intended recipient, please 
contact the sender immediately and destroy all copies of the original 
message. Violations will be prosecuted to the FULL extent allowed under 
applicable civil and criminal law. Imagery published or distributed in 
violation of these conditions shall be subject to a $1500/image 
liquidated damages charge, in addition to any applicable Copyright 
violation penalties.

[POV IMage Service Banner]
****************************************************************
{ The P.O.V. Image Service Website is still at http://www.p-o-v-image.com/ }




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]