Digital BW, The Print

Hi there, new to this group and looking for some advice from your vast
knowledge pool!
I have a 1290 using Mediastreet plug&play dye inks through a CIS and am
pleased with my photographic prints, mostly on matt papers.  I have done a
fair amount of B&W prints (using colour inks) over the last 3 months and
have been generally happy with the results, but the longevity sucks, I have
prints that have faded dramatically after 8wks in a window - how this
corresponds to 'real life' conditions I have no idea, either way, I don't
get a warm feeling.
So, I have decided to give Generations G4 colour pigments a try and have
read good reports of gamut, Dmax and longevity.  BUT - I have no idea how
the performance of these inks will suit me for B&W prints.
I know this methodology is WAY behind the kind of hi-tech solutions you
folks are using but I am not ready / cannot afford to go the quad/hextone
route yet, so this is a real option for my B&Ws.  I guess most people here
have upgraded from colour B&W prints at some point, so does anybody have
any experience on how the prints from this pigment set would compare to the
dyes I have been using or OEM inks when used for B&W prints?

Help appreciated

Steve.

Steve,

the Gen4 inkset has its following for archival color printing, but hardly anyone 
here would consider making bw prints with color pigments AND the Epson 
driver combined. If you have a RIP then maybe you can get a consistent 
enough grayscale, otherwise you are in for some heavy duty profiling 
excercises.

The Gen 4 has a pretty good dmax because of a small percent of dye in its 
black. Some prefer the MIS Perpetuals which are all pigment. Either would 
beat the dyes for stability but  probably won't match their dmax (that's also a 
function of the coating of the paper). One nice thing about the Gen4 is that 
they are sold by inkjetmall who also sell profiles for them.

If you want a "compromise" solution of one printer for both color and bw you 
may want to look into the new Epson printers with the 7 carts and twin blacks.

Antonis



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., stephen.bate@m... wrote:

> So, I have decided to give Generations G4 colour pigments a try and have
> read good reports of gamut, Dmax and longevity.  BUT - I have no idea how
> the performance of these inks will suit me for B&W prints.
> I know this methodology is WAY behind the kind of hi-tech solutions you
> folks are using but I am not ready / cannot afford to go the quad/hextone
> route yet, so this is a real option for my B&Ws.  I guess most people here
> have upgraded from colour B&W prints at some point, so does anybody 
have
> any experience on how the prints from this pigment set would compare to 
the

> dyes I have been using or OEM inks when used for B&W prints?
> 
> Help appreciated
> 
> Steve.

Right, thanks for the feedback.  A couple more questions if you don't 
mind.  (please bear with me, I am new to this and promise I won't be 
asking such seemingly daft questions in another months time or so!)

1 - If I was getting 'acceptable' prints from my colour dye set, why 
would I not be equally as happy with the G4 set?  Will something else 
be different?  Is 'metamerism'a bigger issue in B&W?

2 - GULP.  What is an RIP (if there is an FAQ section I missed, 
please point me there....), where do I get it/one & will it cost me 
very much?  Does my RIP replace the Espon driver?  What about 
profiles?

3 - My system is only 3 months old.  If I had to buy another printer, 
I may as well keep my colour one and go hextone for B&W.  Can't 
afford it for now.  When I can, then the majority of the discussion 
here will be of more relavence.


Thanks, 

Steve
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "antonisphoto" 
<antonisphoto@y...> wrote:
> Steve,
> 
> the Gen4 inkset has its following for archival color printing, but 
hardly anyone 
> here would consider making bw prints with color pigments AND the 
Epson 
> driver combined. If you have a RIP then maybe you can get a 
consistent 
> enough grayscale, otherwise you are in for some heavy duty 
profiling 
> excercises.
> 
> The Gen 4 has a pretty good dmax because of a small percent of dye 
in its 
> black. Some prefer the MIS Perpetuals which are all pigment. Either 
would 
> beat the dyes for stability but  probably won't match their dmax 
(that's also a 
> function of the coating of the paper). One nice thing about the 
Gen4 is that 
> they are sold by inkjetmall who also sell profiles for them.
> 
> If you want a "compromise" solution of one printer for both color 
and bw you 
> may want to look into the new Epson printers with the 7 carts and 
twin blacks.
> 
> Antonis
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., stephen.bate@m... wrote:
> 
> > So, I have decided to give Generations G4 colour pigments a try 
and have
> > read good reports of gamut, Dmax and longevity.  BUT - I have no 
idea how
> > the performance of these inks will suit me for B&W prints.
> > I know this methodology is WAY behind the kind of hi-tech 
solutions you
> > folks are using but I am not ready / cannot afford to go the 
quad/hextone
> > route yet, so this is a real option for my B&Ws.  I guess most 
people here
> > have upgraded from colour B&W prints at some point, so does 
anybody 
> have
> > any experience on how the prints from this pigment set would 
compare to 

> the
> > dyes I have been using or OEM inks when used for B&W prints?
> > 
> > Help appreciated
> > 
> > Steve.

hi Steve,

Yes, metamerism, cross-over etc etc are bigger issues the nearer you get to
neutral grey. e.g. a colour image with a magenta cast will not be noticed by
everyone... but 'most' people will notice it is your image is predominantly
'grey'. So cross-over (where one area of a greyscale is e.g. magenta,
another areas eg green) and metamerism are more of an issue. I have now sent
you some samples, but to be honest... they are not representative of what I
have achieved in the past... with a pro profile. Unfortunately, the pro
profile lost it's avalidity when I was forced to swap printers (and
actually, I moved from cart to a new CIS ink supply aswell) so just about
everything changed that shouldn't for such a profile to work.

RIP = Raster Image Processor. Yes, it would replace, or on occasion, be in
addition to the Epson driver. There is a fine-line here. In my view, even
the Piezo plugin (and in fact, the Epson printer driver) are RIPs because
they process raster images (bitmap images) - but it is usually associated
with higher-end products. I'm afraid I currently know little about (colour)
RIPs, but the implication here is that they give you more control over the
way ink is laid down by a printer. e.g. Epson printer driver does NOT allow
you to control CMYK inks individually, but I believe a colour RIP 'should'.
For RIP, read '???' (which probably won't come out on this email so read
'$$$' instead)

Referring back to point 1 - I hope you understand why I was not able to
spend too much time improving the greyscale print samples!

Best regards,
nij

> -----Original Message-----
> From: scrber [mailto:stephen.bate@...]
> Sent: 24 May 2002 13:00
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Gen4 inkset for B&W
>
>
> Right, thanks for the feedback.  A couple more questions if you don't
> mind.  (please bear with me, I am new to this and promise I won't be
> asking such seemingly daft questions in another months time or so!)
>
> 1 - If I was getting 'acceptable' prints from my colour dye set, why
> would I not be equally as happy with the G4 set?  Will something else
> be different?  Is 'metamerism'a bigger issue in B&W?
>
> 2 - GULP.  What is an RIP (if there is an FAQ section I missed,
> please point me there....), where do I get it/one & will it cost me
> very much?  Does my RIP replace the Espon driver?  What about
> profiles?
>
> 3 - My system is only 3 months old.  If I had to buy another printer,
> I may as well keep my colour one and go hextone for B&W.  Can't
> afford it for now.  When I can, then the majority of the discussion
> here will be of more relavence.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve

Nij, fancy bumping in to you!  You are a Gent, thank you very much 
for your help - I will look forward to the samples and get back to 
you (to be honest, they are going to have to be shockingly bad for me 
not to go this route at the moment...)

One more incy wincy question......

I have checked out inkjetmal for the G4 profiles.  They only list a 
handful of papers I can't get / cant afford (for afford, read 
Hahnemuele).  Do you know know where one can get a custom profile 
made for a particular paper?

Thanks


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Nij" <nigel@m...> wrote:
> hi Steve,
> 
> Yes, metamerism, cross-over etc etc are bigger issues the nearer 
you get to
> neutral grey. e.g. a colour image with a magenta cast will not be 
noticed by
> everyone... but 'most' people will notice it is your image is 
predominantly
> 'grey'. So cross-over (where one area of a greyscale is e.g. 
magenta,
> another areas eg green) and metamerism are more of an issue. I have 
now sent
> you some samples, but to be honest... they are not representative 
of what I
> have achieved in the past... with a pro profile. Unfortunately, the 
pro
> profile lost it's avalidity when I was forced to swap printers (and
> actually, I moved from cart to a new CIS ink supply aswell) so just 
about
> everything changed that shouldn't for such a profile to work.
> 
> RIP = Raster Image Processor. Yes, it would replace, or on 
occasion, be in
> addition to the Epson driver. There is a fine-line here. In my 
view, even
> the Piezo plugin (and in fact, the Epson printer driver) are RIPs 
because
> they process raster images (bitmap images) - but it is usually 
associated
> with higher-end products. I'm afraid I currently know little about 
(colour)
> RIPs, but the implication here is that they give you more control 
over the
> way ink is laid down by a printer. e.g. Epson printer driver does 
NOT allow
> you to control CMYK inks individually, but I believe a colour 
RIP 'should'.
> For RIP, read '???' (which probably won't come out on this email so 
read
> '$$$' instead)
> 
> Referring back to point 1 - I hope you understand why I was not 
able to
> spend too much time improving the greyscale print samples!
> 
> Best regards,
> nij
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: scrber [mailto:stephen.bate@m...]
> > Sent: 24 May 2002 13:00
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Gen4 inkset for B&W
> >
> >
> > Right, thanks for the feedback.  A couple more questions if you 
don't
> > mind.  (please bear with me, I am new to this and promise I won't 
be
> > asking such seemingly daft questions in another months time or 
so!)
> >
> > 1 - If I was getting 'acceptable' prints from my colour dye set, 
why
> > would I not be equally as happy with the G4 set?  Will something 
else
> > be different?  Is 'metamerism'a bigger issue in B&W?
> >
> > 2 - GULP.  What is an RIP (if there is an FAQ section I missed,
> > please point me there....), where do I get it/one & will it cost 
me
> > very much?  Does my RIP replace the Espon driver?  What about
> > profiles?
> >
> > 3 - My system is only 3 months old.  If I had to buy another 
printer,
> > I may as well keep my colour one and go hextone for B&W.  Can't
> > afford it for now.  When I can, then the majority of the 
discussion

> > here will be of more relavence.
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Steve

Hi,
Try the following url. I've gotten some great prices from this  company.
http://www.printworks-usa.com/html/BrightcubeFineArt.html
The brightcube looks great. It has a nice thick substantial weight to it.

I have checked out inkjetmal for the G4 profiles.  They only list a 
handful of papers I can't get / cant afford (for afford, read 
Hahnemuele).  

They also carry thie own line of papers. I got a sample pack. The papers look 
good, but I haven't been able to test yet.

Good luck,
George J Kunze
PS-Not affiliated in any way, shape or form. George

I'll post some info to you offlist Steve,

Nij

> -----Original Message-----
> From: scrber [mailto:stephen.bate@...]
> Sent: 24 May 2002 15:08
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Gen4 inkset for B&W
> 
> 
> Nij, fancy bumping in to you!  You are a Gent, thank you very much 
> for your help - I will look forward to the samples and get back to 
> you (to be honest, they are going to have to be shockingly bad for me 
> not to go this route at the moment...)
> 
> One more incy wincy question......
> 
> I have checked out inkjetmal for the G4 profiles.  They only list a 
> handful of papers I can't get / cant afford (for afford, read 
> Hahnemuele).  Do you know know where one can get a custom profile 
> made for a particular paper?
> 
> Thanks

on 5/24/02 1:43 PM, DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com at
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 12:00:26 -0000
> From: "scrber" <stephen.bate@...>
> Subject: Re: Gen4 inkset for B&W
> 
> Right, thanks for the feedback.  A couple more questions if you don't
> mind.  (please bear with me, I am new to this and promise I won't be
> asking such seemingly daft questions in another months time or so!)
> 
> 1 - If I was getting 'acceptable' prints from my colour dye set, why
> would I not be equally as happy with the G4 set?  Will something else
> be different?  Is 'metamerism'a bigger issue in B&W?
> 
> 2 - GULP.  What is an RIP (if there is an FAQ section I missed,
> please point me there....), where do I get it/one & will it cost me
> very much?  Does my RIP replace the Espon driver?  What about
> profiles?
> 
> 3 - My system is only 3 months old.  If I had to buy another printer,
> I may as well keep my colour one and go hextone for B&W.  Can't
> afford it for now.  When I can, then the majority of the discussion
> here will be of more relavence.
> 
> 
> Thanks, 
> 
> Steve

 About Generations inks for B&W:

You should know that the gamut is much less than the dye inks on glossy
paper (generations only works with matte papers as it is a pigment ink,
though epson brand pigment inks can work on some glossy papers).  The gamut
is also less than dye inks printed on matte papers.  So expect your prints
to have quite a bit less "punch" to them.  I've learned to live with this
limitation, though many times I wish I could have the look of dye inks, even
on matte papers.

That said, you will also need a custom profile made to print using these
inks(or the inkjetmall profile perhaps)  A professional custom profile will
cost about $100.  I am willing to bet that you will be disappointed with
Generations inks without the custom profile.

I had a profile made for my photo 1200 by CD Tobie, a fellow list member,
and have been very happy with it.  Though it was made for Epson Archival
Matte paper, it also works ok with Orwell/German Etching as well.

I have printed some B&W images using the color generations inks via the
custom profile and was surprised at how neutral they look.  Not perfect, but
pretty darn good.  Applying a small sepia tint to the image really hides the
imperfections rather nicely.

Hope this helps you in your decision.


-Bruce

Visit my website at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~smthopr