Digital BW, The Print

Della, 

An interesting post. 

It is remarkable how the various testing methods and testers  can come up with different conclusions (just like medical research)...

It does seem to me (too) that looking at the "big picture" (all inks in total on the print) is the most important test...as those four inks are the ones making the final image...so a more holistic approach eh?

Thanks for posting, 

Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: dellaellingson 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 1:59 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] MIS-FS test and PiezoTone test

  Paul's black ink only test misled me yesterday. I am not saying that
  Paul did this test to cast a doubt on the new PiezoTone inks. But I
  thought after seeing it that MIS-FS inks would not fade warm. However,
  the new tests which use all four inks that Antonis posted today tell
  another picture completely different from Paul's test. If I want to
  test drive a car I want all four tires, not just one. If I am
  interested in comparison of prints made with one quadblack inkset to
  prints made with another quadblack inkset then I want to see all inks,
  not just black. 


  These are more representative to me - click to see for yourself:

  A print made with MIS-FS inks fades warm and looks lighter
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhite
  ThePrint/files/Ink%20Sets/PiezoTones/PiezoTone%20v
  s%20MIS-FS/misfs-lg.jpg

  A print made with PiezoTone inks will not fade warm
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhite
  ThePrint/files/Ink%20Sets/PiezoTones/PiezoTone%20v
  s%20MIS-FS/piezotone-lg.jpg

  The new tests are conducted with a Xenon which is a standard. You see
  this everywhere there is accountability, so I know it is designed in
  fairness. Companies which provide this type of professional testing do
  so that they can be non-objective.

  Paul admited to us earlier on the list that the MIS-FS ink, like all
  the quad blacks, warmed noticeably. Therefore this new PiezoTone
  inkset is a great improvement because it does not warm. It is a new
  invention and I subscribe to this list to find out this information. I
  am glad I read list this morning too. 


  -della


  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think far too much is written about these things. I know Piezo users who
disparage other inksets without trying them, and MIS users who have opinions
about Piezo without ever having used it. The only answer is to try carts of
all the systems, on your system and your paper, with your images. For those
of us with the piezo driver it really is cheap and easy to try all the
available options.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS-FS test and PiezoTone test


> Della,
>
> An interesting post.
>
> It is remarkable how the various testing methods and testers  can come up
with different conclusions (just like medical research)...
>
> It does seem to me (too) that looking at the "big picture" (all inks in
total on the print) is the most important test...as those four inks are the
ones making the final image...so a more holistic approach eh?
>
> Thanks for posting,
>
> Steadman
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: dellaellingson
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 1:59 PM
>   Subject: [Digital BW] MIS-FS test and PiezoTone test
>
>   Paul's black ink only test misled me yesterday. I am not saying that
>   Paul did this test to cast a doubt on the new PiezoTone inks. But I
>   thought after seeing it that MIS-FS inks would not fade warm. However,
>   the new tests which use all four inks that Antonis posted today tell
>   another picture completely different from Paul's test. If I want to
>   test drive a car I want all four tires, not just one. If I am
>   interested in comparison of prints made with one quadblack inkset to
>   prints made with another quadblack inkset then I want to see all inks,
>   not just black.
>
>
>   These are more representative to me - click to see for yourself:
>
>   A print made with MIS-FS inks fades warm and looks lighter
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhite
>   ThePrint/files/Ink%20Sets/PiezoTones/PiezoTone%20v
>   s%20MIS-FS/misfs-lg.jpg
>
>   A print made with PiezoTone inks will not fade warm
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhite
>   ThePrint/files/Ink%20Sets/PiezoTones/PiezoTone%20v
>   s%20MIS-FS/piezotone-lg.jpg
>
>   The new tests are conducted with a Xenon which is a standard. You see
>   this everywhere there is accountability, so I know it is designed in
>   fairness. Companies which provide this type of professional testing do
>   so that they can be non-objective.
>
>   Paul admited to us earlier on the list that the MIS-FS ink, like all
>   the quad blacks, warmed noticeably. Therefore this new PiezoTone
>   inkset is a great improvement because it does not warm. It is a new
>   invention and I subscribe to this list to find out this information. I
>   am glad I read list this morning too.
>
>
>   -della
>
>
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - Include your full name with your message.
>   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
>   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
>   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Julian, 

I completely agree with you on this.  

Testing and testing...one activity. 

Making photos and making prints is another.  

Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Julian Thomas 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 11:08 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS-FS test and PiezoTone test


  I think far too much is written about these things. I know Piezo users who
  disparage other inksets without trying them, and MIS users who have opinions
  about Piezo without ever having used it. The only answer is to try carts of
  all the systems, on your system and your paper, with your images. For those
  of us with the piezo driver it really is cheap and easy to try all the
  available options.

  Julian
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
  To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
  Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 5:57 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS-FS test and PiezoTone test


  > Della,
  >
  > An interesting post.
  >
  > It is remarkable how the various testing methods and testers  can come up
  with different conclusions (just like medical research)...
  >
  > It does seem to me (too) that looking at the "big picture" (all inks in
  total on the print) is the most important test...as those four inks are the
  ones making the final image...so a more holistic approach eh?
  >
  > Thanks for posting,
  >
  > Steadman
  >   ----- Original Message -----
  >   From: dellaellingson
  >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  >   Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 1:59 PM
  >   Subject: [Digital BW] MIS-FS test and PiezoTone test
  >
  >   Paul's black ink only test misled me yesterday. I am not saying that
  >   Paul did this test to cast a doubt on the new PiezoTone inks. But I
  >   thought after seeing it that MIS-FS inks would not fade warm. However,
  >   the new tests which use all four inks that Antonis posted today tell
  >   another picture completely different from Paul's test. If I want to
  >   test drive a car I want all four tires, not just one. If I am
  >   interested in comparison of prints made with one quadblack inkset to
  >   prints made with another quadblack inkset then I want to see all inks,
  >   not just black.
  >
  >
  >   These are more representative to me - click to see for yourself:
  >
  >   A print made with MIS-FS inks fades warm and looks lighter
  >   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhite
  >   ThePrint/files/Ink%20Sets/PiezoTones/PiezoTone%20v
  >   s%20MIS-FS/misfs-lg.jpg
  >
  >   A print made with PiezoTone inks will not fade warm
  >   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhite
  >   ThePrint/files/Ink%20Sets/PiezoTones/PiezoTone%20v
  >   s%20MIS-FS/piezotone-lg.jpg
  >
  >   The new tests are conducted with a Xenon which is a standard. You see
  >   this everywhere there is accountability, so I know it is designed in
  >   fairness. Companies which provide this type of professional testing do
  >   so that they can be non-objective.
  >
  >   Paul admited to us earlier on the list that the MIS-FS ink, like all
  >   the quad blacks, warmed noticeably. Therefore this new PiezoTone
  >   inkset is a great improvement because it does not warm. It is a new
  >   invention and I subscribe to this list to find out this information. I
  >   am glad I read list this morning too.
  >
  >
  >   -della
  >
  >
  >   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
  other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
  >
  >   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
  >
  >   Please follow these basic guidelines:
  >   - Include your full name with your message.
  >   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  >   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
  keep them short.
  >   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
  header.
  >   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
  "flames."
  >   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  >   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
  resources on the homepage.
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
  >
  >
  >
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >
  >
  >
  > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
  other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
  >
  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
  >
  > Please follow these basic guidelines:
  > - Include your full name with your message.
  > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
  them short.
  > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
  "flames."
  > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
  resources on the homepage.
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
  >
  >
  >


  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> 
> I think far too much is written about these things.

... I agree, there is very little reason beyond the initial postings to go
on and on about one over another, it's all repeated, and on more than one
list... and various fade tests? Well, get some ink, hang up your prints and
take a look. Decide for yourself which is best for your tastes from what is
available at this time.

>I know Piezo users who
> disparage other inksets without trying them, and MIS users who have opinions
> about Piezo without ever having used it.

I would have to say "and vice versa" to that Julian, there are very many MIS
users who 'disparage' very well indeed.

>The only answer is to try carts of
> all the systems, on your system and your paper, with your images. For those
> of us with the piezo driver it really is cheap and easy to try all the
> available options.
'tis... but it's even cheaper to ask questions.

Carolyn

>
> >I know Piezo users who
> > disparage other inksets without trying them, and MIS users who have
opinions
> > about Piezo without ever having used it.
>
> I would have to say "and vice versa" to that Julian, there are very many
MIS
> users who 'disparage' very well indeed.

I thought my vice versa was in the original sentence! :)_)(

Questions are always good I agree, but email is a tricky medium. Colour
perception is so subjective and is relative to what you think is the ideal
that unless the issues discussed are purely technical i.e. clogs, it can be
very misleading. For example, I loved the colour of the original piezo,
others thought it 'brown'. The neutral curve of Paul's VM (from one of
jerry's prints) looks 'blue' to me. There is also marketing hype to
consider.
I'll try some piezotone carts but in a way they are answering questions that
I'm not asking - I've not yet had a collector or gallery ask about prints
'warming', or saying that the blacks aren't sufficient. The questions I'm
getting are that inkjet doesn't have the 'glow' of silver (don't forget I'm
talking about the european market here - the US is a lot more enlightened),
so I want pigs that work on semimatte paper!

Julian

>>> I know Piezo users who disparage other inksets without trying them, and MIS
>>> users who have opinions about Piezo without ever having used it.
>>> 
>> I would have to say "and vice versa" to that Julian, there are very many MIS
>> users who 'disparage' very well indeed.
> 
> I thought my vice versa was in the original sentence! :)_)(

hmmm, guess I missed that! figured I should add all users 'disparage'! <evil
grin>


> 
> Questions are always good I agree, but email is a tricky medium. Colour
> perception is so subjective and is relative to what you think is the ideal
> that unless the issues discussed are purely technical i.e. clogs, it can be
> very misleading. For example, I loved the colour of the original piezo,
> others thought it 'brown'. The neutral curve of Paul's VM (from one of
> jerry's prints) looks 'blue' to me. There is also marketing hype to
> consider.

Yes, totally agree, to all actually... I like the original tone too. Some of
Tyler, Tim and Nina's stuff totally blows away the tone of others on my
wall. (to my eyes).  I don't like cool tones thought, subjective and
relative, yes.

Marketing hype? Surely you jest...

> I'll try some piezotone carts but in a way they are answering questions that
> I'm not asking - I've not yet had a collector or gallery ask about prints
> 'warming', or saying that the blacks aren't sufficient. The questions I'm
> getting are that inkjet doesn't have the 'glow' of silver (don't forget I'm
> talking about the european market here - the US is a lot more enlightened),
> so I want pigs that work on semimatte paper!

Those you sold recently... did they glow like silver?   I've seen some
Peizo's that have a wonderful 'glow', not to the same degree as silver, but
the image has it's own presence apart from silver.

Carolyn

> Those you sold recently... did they glow like silver?   I've seen some
> Peizo's that have a wonderful 'glow', not to the same degree as silver,
but
> the image has it's own presence apart from silver.

well, they were on semimatte! so they came closer. Most of my holga stuff is
lo-key so it looses out in a comparison with silver. I'm scanning some
'weather' shots i was working on whilst in Salina recently and they work
great on inkjet - midtone heaven! I'm returning to WR/WT for these - I'm
liking that paper again.

Julian

All,

Frankly, it is nice when we get information on this list from folks with no axe to 
grind, as some posts seem to indicate.  Others...  I'm not so sure.

For myself, I have run the Cone original inks, which warmshift to a degree I find 
troubling.  I have also run MIS-FS's, which also warmshift, although somewhat 
less than the Cone originals.  I find their blacks lacking. Both inksets fade, in my 
experience, as demonstrated by window tests.  I do wonder, if the FS's are so 
pure, why do they shift at all?  What's going on there?

Now I've got PiezoTone in the 7000, and they are definitely producing the best 
images I've ever seen. I use the Pro24 RIP, and the profiles actually seem to 
work better than with either of the previous inksets, and that makes me very 
happy.  This comparison is done printing the exact same image file on the same 
paper/software/printer.  The PiezoTones produce better shadow detail 
rendering. It's too early to tell on how they fare as far as fading is concerned, 
but none have warmshifted in about a month's worth of printing.  I have not 
mounted window tests as of yet, but intend to. I do love the color, as it is 
closest to my darkroom stuff, and they do seem to emanate a certain depth, no 
doubt due to the superb blacks.
I'm not going to defend Jon, and possibly there is some doublespeak at work here 
on his part, but perhaps it only seems so, too. I'm no expert on the formulation 
and manufacture of ink, and don't presume to understand what are probably 
very complex issues of chemistry. He's a long way ahead of me on that.  He 
obviously has a lot to guard against in his public commentary.  After all, it must 
be frustrating to do the ink R&D at what is probably no small cost, only to have 
competitors come out with cheaper variations as soon as he releases his 
product. So whatever...

In the end I don't really care that much what is said by whom about what.  I look 
to my own experience and to that of those I feel I can trust for unbiased 
information.  I just want to print with inks that work.  That means ones that 
don't fade quickly, and that have an agreeable color and hold it.  And that means 
in the PRINTS, not in a swatch test. If your thing is swatches, then I suppose how 
they fare in testing is important. Extrapolating from there is perhaps dangerous 
and premature...

Phil
http://philbard.com