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Re: [Digital BW] MIS-FS and PiezoTone test; now FSN 'E' hex

Re: [Digital BW] MIS-FS and PiezoTone test; now FSN 'E' hex

2002-06-18 by Barry Kelsall

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>

> With the hextone machines, the Epson driver does not
> work at all because the FS and Piezo cyan & photo (light) cyan
> are the same density -- likewise for the magenta
> & photo magenta.  MIS now has what they call the FS-"E"
> series that is geared to the Epson driver, but I'm
> not sure anyone has developed workflows for the inks.

I am using the FS-N "E" in my 1200 and can say it works great for
high-contrast, busy images.

But on portraits I see mild posterization.

I am no expert, but I am thinking that the density of the replacement ink
must match the Epson OEM color ink for this to work with the native Epson
driver. For example, say the hex-black cyan is a tad less dense than the
Epson cyan, and the hex-black photo-cyan is a tad more dense than its OEM
counterpart. Then the transition in the Epson driver between these tones
will not work, producing a flat spot where the inks mix that no amount of
RGB curve tweaking can cure. And only one of the inks needs be off to
produce this problem (this is my fuzzy logic here, though I state it like an
accepted pardigm).

Also disturbing are the reports I have seen of users seeing posterization
with the Piezography driver. Even a dedicated partitioning solution has
problems?

-BK
who is wondering what to try next

Re: [Digital BW] MIS-FS and PiezoTone test; now FSN 'E' hex

2002-06-18 by antonisphoto

Barry,

there is no posterization in the piezo driver per se (as long as prints are made 
on supported papers and inks).  However, I have seen posterizations that can 
be traced to the way the image was scanned or edited or otherwise 
"managed". This is often tricky to troubleshoot. Even printing a grayscale is not 
enough information for subtle "breaks". 

Antonis



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Barry Kelsall" <bktimes@y...> 
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Also disturbing are the reports I have seen of users seeing posterization
> with the Piezography driver. Even a dedicated partitioning solution has
> problems?
> 
> -BK
> who is wondering what to try next

Re: [Digital BW] MIS-FS and PiezoTone test; now FSN 'E' hex

2002-06-18 by janishilesh

Barry,

I talked to Bob Ziess of MIS yesterday, and he told me that the c and 
m inks in FS-E were 1/3 dilutions of the normal FS inks. I don't know 
how this dilution translates to density, because it is not a linear 
function. In the normal FS inks, C=c (dark), and M=m (medium). So the 
FS-E inks tone order is CcMmY (inks position) = 
dark/medium1/medium2/light1/light2. I don't what the density 
relationship will be between medium1 and medium2, or light1 and 
light2. No matter, an RGB curve will need to be used to control the 
tones to bring each of the 5% print patches in-line with the expected 
density. Bob has not posted a curve yet, but he told me that he has 
received one from John Wolfe, and will be posting it soon. I am not 
sure which printer model it is for. However, I expect the curve 
generated on one hextone printer should be fairly close to universal 
for all 6 color printers, provided you maintain the same image space 
and other printer settings. Minor tweaks should be all that is 
necessary. Are you using an adjustment curve?

From my own personal experience, a proper match (but not necessarily 
exact match) between perceived gray density of the OEM color and true 
gray (FS) inks is all one needs for a seamless ramp, and little issue 
with posterization.  My judgement tells me that the most important 
thing is that the progression from dark to light be maintained in the 
correct order. The perceived gray density (lightness value?) of OEM 
color inks from dark to light is approximately CMcmY.  I use the FS 
inks, but with modified positions, in the following manner: CcMmY 
(ink position) = CMCMY (FS inks) = dark/medium/dark/medium. Then I 
created a global RGB curve to get proper separation of 5% patches. 
Because of the tone order I use, the curve does not have steep 
gradients. Steep gradients in the curve actually can lead to 
posterization (or more accurately solarization). This work-flow on my 
1280 gives me the best b/w prints I have ever made. The RGB curve can 
be found at the inkjetgoodies.com web-site (I have no interest in the 
company). This work-flow will, however, require you to use a CIS or 
fill your own cartridges. One thing I have found is that it helps to 
have a little toe in the dark end of the spectrum, i.e. the 
relationship is not linear at the dark end. I prefer my 5% RGB to be 
in the 2-3%, and the 10% be around 8%. This gives an overall 
impression of darker blacks in low-key images. For high-key images, 
it is better to have a straight linear relationship.

I have actually found that for the 1280 class of printer, you 
actually need only 3 tones (black, dark, and medium) to get very good 
prints. The folks at lincolninks.com have been advocating this 
approach for quite a while.

Good luck.

Shilesh


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Barry Kelsall" 
<bktimes@y...> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...>
> 
> > With the hextone machines, the Epson driver does not
> > work at all because the FS and Piezo cyan & photo (light) cyan
> > are the same density -- likewise for the magenta
> > & photo magenta.  MIS now has what they call the FS-"E"
> > series that is geared to the Epson driver, but I'm
> > not sure anyone has developed workflows for the inks.
> 
> I am using the FS-N "E" in my 1200 and can say it works great for
> high-contrast, busy images.
> 
> But on portraits I see mild posterization.
> 
> I am no expert, but I am thinking that the density of the 
replacement ink
> must match the Epson OEM color ink for this to work with the native 
Epson
> driver. For example, say the hex-black cyan is a tad less dense 
than the
> Epson cyan, and the hex-black photo-cyan is a tad more dense than 
its OEM
> counterpart. Then the transition in the Epson driver between these 
tones
> will not work, producing a flat spot where the inks mix that no 
amount of
> RGB curve tweaking can cure. And only one of the inks needs be off 
to
> produce this problem (this is my fuzzy logic here, though I state 
it like an
> accepted pardigm).
> 
> Also disturbing are the reports I have seen of users seeing 
posterization
> with the Piezography driver. Even a dedicated partitioning solution 
has
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> problems?
> 
> -BK
> who is wondering what to try next

Re: [Digital BW] MIS-FS and PiezoTone test; now FSN 'E' hex

2002-06-19 by Barry Kelsall

Antonis, thanks for that. One reason I am leary of curve adjustments in
general is the possible introduction of posterization (or solarization).

I have been considering springing for the piezo driver, but i would want to
use the FSN MIS ink with it. (I just can't bring myself to pay the 'toll'
for PiezoTones). As I understand it, piezo would treat my 1200 as if it was
just a quad printer, so I would be inclined to use one of my 1160s instead.
I would still be in a quandary to find a way to leverage the hex tones of
the 1200.

-BK

----- Original Message -----
From: "antonisphoto" <antonisphoto@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS-FS and PiezoTone test; now FSN 'E' hex


> Barry,
>
> there is no posterization in the piezo driver per se (as long as prints
are made
> on supported papers and inks).  However, I have seen posterizations that
can
> be traced to the way the image was scanned or edited or otherwise
> "managed". This is often tricky to troubleshoot. Even printing a grayscale
is not
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> enough information for subtle "breaks".
>
> Antonis

Re: [Digital BW] MIS-FS and PiezoTone test; now FSN 'E' hex

2002-06-19 by Barry Kelsall

Shilesh, thanks for the heads-up on the Wolf workflow. I will check it when
it is posted.

Yes, I am applying an adjustment curve I made using my scanner, but I think
it is flawed. Without any curves, the gray ramp seems to have problems
around 15%, 65% and 90%, where there seems to be sharper transitions in the
ramp. My attempts at curve production just seem to move these problem areas
around (though I think I am getting more accurate 5% steps).

This is what led me to the conclusion that the inks & driver didn't mesh the
same way as the OEM color inks.
-BK

----- Original Message -----
From: "janishilesh" <shilesh.jani@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 2:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS-FS and PiezoTone test; now FSN 'E' hex


> Barry,
>
> I talked to Bob Ziess of MIS yesterday, and he told me that the c and
> m inks in FS-E were 1/3 dilutions of the normal FS inks. I don't know
> how this dilution translates to density, because it is not a linear
> function. In the normal FS inks, C=c (dark), and M=m (medium). So the
> FS-E inks tone order is CcMmY (inks position) =
> dark/medium1/medium2/light1/light2. I don't what the density
> relationship will be between medium1 and medium2, or light1 and
> light2. No matter, an RGB curve will need to be used to control the
> tones to bring each of the 5% print patches in-line with the expected
> density. Bob has not posted a curve yet, but he told me that he has
> received one from John Wolfe, and will be posting it soon. I am not
> sure which printer model it is for. However, I expect the curve
> generated on one hextone printer should be fairly close to universal
> for all 6 color printers, provided you maintain the same image space
> and other printer settings. Minor tweaks should be all that is
> necessary. Are you using an adjustment curve?
>
> From my own personal experience, a proper match (but not necessarily
> exact match) between perceived gray density of the OEM color and true
> gray (FS) inks is all one needs for a seamless ramp, and little issue
> with posterization.  My judgement tells me that the most important
> thing is that the progression from dark to light be maintained in the
> correct order. The perceived gray density (lightness value?) of OEM
> color inks from dark to light is approximately CMcmY.  I use the FS
> inks, but with modified positions, in the following manner: CcMmY
> (ink position) = CMCMY (FS inks) = dark/medium/dark/medium. Then I
> created a global RGB curve to get proper separation of 5% patches.
> Because of the tone order I use, the curve does not have steep
> gradients. Steep gradients in the curve actually can lead to
> posterization (or more accurately solarization). This work-flow on my
> 1280 gives me the best b/w prints I have ever made. The RGB curve can
> be found at the inkjetgoodies.com web-site (I have no interest in the
> company). This work-flow will, however, require you to use a CIS or
> fill your own cartridges. One thing I have found is that it helps to
> have a little toe in the dark end of the spectrum, i.e. the
> relationship is not linear at the dark end. I prefer my 5% RGB to be
> in the 2-3%, and the 10% be around 8%. This gives an overall
> impression of darker blacks in low-key images. For high-key images,
> it is better to have a straight linear relationship.
>
> I have actually found that for the 1280 class of printer, you
> actually need only 3 tones (black, dark, and medium) to get very good
> prints. The folks at lincolninks.com have been advocating this
> approach for quite a while.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Shilesh
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Barry Kelsall"
> <bktimes@y...> wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...>
> >
> > > With the hextone machines, the Epson driver does not
> > > work at all because the FS and Piezo cyan & photo (light) cyan
> > > are the same density -- likewise for the magenta
> > > & photo magenta.  MIS now has what they call the FS-"E"
> > > series that is geared to the Epson driver, but I'm
> > > not sure anyone has developed workflows for the inks.
> >
> > I am using the FS-N "E" in my 1200 and can say it works great for
> > high-contrast, busy images.
> >
> > But on portraits I see mild posterization.
> >
> > I am no expert, but I am thinking that the density of the
> replacement ink
> > must match the Epson OEM color ink for this to work with the native
> Epson
> > driver. For example, say the hex-black cyan is a tad less dense
> than the
> > Epson cyan, and the hex-black photo-cyan is a tad more dense than
> its OEM
> > counterpart. Then the transition in the Epson driver between these
> tones
> > will not work, producing a flat spot where the inks mix that no
> amount of
> > RGB curve tweaking can cure. And only one of the inks needs be off
> to
> > produce this problem (this is my fuzzy logic here, though I state
> it like an
> > accepted pardigm).
> >
> > Also disturbing are the reports I have seen of users seeing
> posterization
> > with the Piezography driver. Even a dedicated partitioning solution
> has
> > problems?
> >
> > -BK
> > who is wondering what to try next
>
>
>
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Re: [Digital BW] MIS-FS and PiezoTone test; now FSN 'E' hex

2002-06-19 by Barry Kelsall

> I have actually found that for the 1280 class of printer, you
> actually need only 3 tones (black, dark, and medium) to get very good
> prints. The folks at lincolninks.com have been advocating this
> approach for quite a while.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Shilesh

Lincoln Ink also stated that their goal was to match the gray tone of OEM
CMY with their middle gray and the tone of OEM cm with their light gray.
They wanted to leverage the partitioning built in to the hex Epson driver
for their tri-tone inkset. I still think that if the transition from K to
CMY, and from C to c and M to m don't work as the Epson driver expects, then
there will be problems that only a successful partitioning workflow can
surmount.

I have long thought that if we could get a quad or hex set to match the tone
(density) of one of the popular pigment color inksets, then we could use
profiling software for the color inkset & use that profile interchangeably
with both sets. I just don't know if I am ready to start mixing my own inks
to try to test this theory...
-BK

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