Digital BW, The Print

>... the different manufacturers
>providing the inks and also the 4-color 6-color difference.

>... I am trying to keep the cost as low as possible, so Piezo is
>prolly out of the question, MIS, with its workflows and
>new FS and neutral tones sounds better for me (and my wallet).

>... here in Australia 1160 are easy to get
>compared with 1200, however if hextone offers far
>superior quality then I
>don't mind spending a bit of time finding a 1200.

While some can see the difference in quality between the 1160 and the
hextones, I prefer the quads -- 1160 and 3000.  They are more flexible and
easier to load inks into.

With the variable-tone inks, the quads don't have a "light" toner position.
Thus, some see the toner dots in the highlights.  At viewing distance and
normal viewing conditions, I don't see them.  At very close inspection I do.
I think the differences with real world prints is minor.  Others may
disagree.

With the FS inks, which have a very light gray and no toner, I really doubt
anyone can tell the difference between an 1160 and 1200 output.

If you ever want to play with the Piezo driver and inks, the hextone Piezo
arrangement excludes the Epson driver workflows.  This is a serious
limitation, as the Epson workflows have some advantages in some
circumstances.  The ability to use alternative drivers and workflows can be
important, as none is perfect.  When one has a glitch that shows up in a
particular print, being able to use a different one is really nice.  The
quads can do this, the hextones cannot.

So, I recommend the 1160.

(I just paid nearly the cost of my 1160 to have it's heads replaced, and I
unplugged the hextone machine I had in it's place.  For me, the 1160's
flexibility and easy of use is more important than the hextone's marginal
quality improvement.)

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Didn't catch your name but I would chose the 1160 over the 1200. The 1200 is
a bit notorious for having microbanding problems and I gave up on mine
eventually.

Now if it was a choice between the 1160 and the 1280 the I would say go with
the 1280 (or is it the 1290 in your area?). I think the additional nozzles
and the 2880 dpi resolution offer some small improvements. I feel the 1280
or 1290 is less likely to band that either the 1160 or 1200. I don't see
that having 6 shades of black to gray offers an advantage over 4.

Martin Wesley

----- Original Message -----
From: "Meme" <imaginaryapple@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 7:18 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] [newbie] epson 1160 or 1200


> Hi ive been reading articles on quadtones with great interest, the most
> confusing aspect of quadtones I feel is the different manufacturers
> providing the inks and also the 4-color 6-color difference.
>
> Basically I am trying to keep the cost as low as possible, so Piezo is
> prolly out of the question, MIS, with its workflows and new FS and neutral
> tones sounds better for me (and my wallet).
>
> So now it comes down to the printer, here in Australia 1160 are easy to
get
> compared with 1200, however if hextone offers far superior quality then I
> don't mind spending a bit of time finding a 1200.
>
> so what are ppl's feelings towards the 1160 vs. 1200 (possibly a flame
war,
> im a newcomer so wouldn't know - yet)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

If you go hex, get the 1280, not the 1200.  But you can still get
terrific quality with the 1160.

Jerry

Meme wrote:

> 
> Hi ive been reading articles on quadtones with great interest, the most
> confusing aspect of quadtones I feel is the different manufacturers
> providing the inks and also the 4-color 6-color difference.
> 
> Basically I am trying to keep the cost as low as possible, so Piezo is
> prolly out of the question, MIS, with its workflows and new FS and neutral
> tones sounds better for me (and my wallet).
> 
> So now it comes down to the printer, here in Australia 1160 are easy to get
> compared with 1200, however if hextone offers far superior quality then I
> don't mind spending a bit of time finding a 1200.
> 
> so what are ppl's feelings towards the 1160 vs. 1200 (possibly a flame war,
> im a newcomer so wouldn't know - yet)
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

I have both printers - one 1200 and several 1160s. In my opinion, the 1160
is a better printer. It was a newer design, is quieter & handles paper
better. It prints smaller droplets so it reproduces detail better. My 1200
is also more prone to microbanding (I really have to fuss with it to keep it
running well). Plus it costs less to set up a CIS/CFS for an 1160, as you
only buy 4 inks instead of 6.

I recently bought the FSN-E ink for the 1200, as I thought it would make a
good hex printer. I couldn't get a smooth grey ramp with it, there being two
nasty flat spots that showed up in subtle tone transitions found in portrait
skin tones & was also noticable in hair, there being flat spots of no detail
where the tones banded. No amount of curve adjustments that I tried would
cure this condition. So I am buying Piezography software & moving the FSN
system to one of my 1160's. I am hoping that the CMY inks are the same so I
can use the ink left over from my 1200 FSN-E experiment.

I also use the original MIS quads in another 1160 & am very happy with the
Brandin workflow. But prints from these inks turn brown with exposure to
light.

Good luck,
-BK

----- Original Message -----
From: "Meme" <imaginaryapple@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 7:18 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] [newbie] epson 1160 or 1200


> Hi ive been reading articles on quadtones with great interest, the most
> confusing aspect of quadtones I feel is the different manufacturers
> providing the inks and also the 4-color 6-color difference.
>
> Basically I am trying to keep the cost as low as possible, so Piezo is
> prolly out of the question, MIS, with its workflows and new FS and neutral
> tones sounds better for me (and my wallet).
>
> So now it comes down to the printer, here in Australia 1160 are easy to
get
> compared with 1200, however if hextone offers far superior quality then I
> don't mind spending a bit of time finding a 1200.
>
> so what are ppl's feelings towards the 1160 vs. 1200 (possibly a flame
war,
> im a newcomer so wouldn't know - yet)

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> >... the different manufacturers
> >providing the inks and also the 4-color 6-color difference.
> 
> >... I am trying to keep the cost as low as possible, so Piezo is
> >prolly out of the question, MIS, with its workflows and
> >new FS and neutral tones sounds better for me (and my wallet).
> 
> >... here in Australia 1160 are easy to get
> >compared with 1200, however if hextone offers far
> >superior quality then I
> >don't mind spending a bit of time finding a 1200.
> 
> While some can see the difference in quality between the 1160 and 
the
> hextones, I prefer the quads -- 1160 and 3000.  They are more 
flexible and
> easier to load inks into.
> 
> With the variable-tone inks, the quads don't have a "light" toner 
position.
> Thus, some see the toner dots in the highlights.  At viewing 
distance and
> normal viewing conditions, I don't see them.  At very close 
inspection I do.
> I think the differences with real world prints is minor.  Others may
> disagree.
> 
> With the FS inks, which have a very light gray and no toner, I 
really doubt
> anyone can tell the difference between an 1160 and 1200 output.
> 
> If you ever want to play with the Piezo driver and inks, the 
hextone Piezo
> arrangement excludes the Epson driver workflows.  This is a serious
> limitation, as the Epson workflows have some advantages in some
> circumstances.  The ability to use alternative drivers and 
workflows can be
> important, as none is perfect.  When one has a glitch that shows up 
in a
> particular print, being able to use a different one is really 
nice.  The
> quads can do this, the hextones cannot.
> 
> So, I recommend the 1160.

Thanks paul, another question I need to ask is regarding your 
workflows, if I use the same setups as you did (1160, archival matte, 
MIS VM), would I get the same results as yours? or is it also 
dependent on the color configuration of my computer?

Also from my understanding your workflow is not WYSIWYG, whereas if I 
went through the trouble of making a transfer function itd be, are 
there anyways of allowing WYSIWYG in pshop while taking advantage of 
your easy-to-use workflows? what about WYSIWYG variable tones is it 
possible?

>... paul, another question I need to ask is regarding your
>workflows, if I use the same setups as you did
>(1160, archival matte, MIS VM), would I get the
>same results as yours? or is it also
>dependent on the color configuration of my computer?

The original workflow for the MIS VM inks calls for the "Photoshop 5
Default" color settings under Edit, Color Settings. This includes the sRGB
color space (which, as it turns out, is unfortunate).

I use a PC, so the Mac performance would be different.

I now have a working 1160 again, and I'll probably do a set of "no color
adjustment," Adobe RGB curves that will be cross-platform and not affected
by the PS 7 sRGB conversion glitch.  I will probably do this for the
vm-sepia inkset, which is what I now use and recommend (unless you really
like cold, as opposed to neutral, prints).


>Also from my understanding your workflow is not WYSIWYG, ...

They are not WYSIWYG in the sense that the image is edited in grayscale, so
the tones are not on the screen.  The monitor and the grayscale image can be
as comparable as in the Piezo workflow (and the monitor does not reflect the
tone of that ink either).  In the VM workflow, when you convert to RGB and
apply a tone/partitioning curve for printing, you get a false-color image
that you would not want to work with or save (although I have saved a few
split-tone files in RGB).

I have no idea whether one could make setup that would show the tones in the
VM workflow.  I think it is a minor issue, myself.  I always print draft
copies of images, because I don't consider any monitor good enough to rely
on for a final print.  Sometimes I'll print 4 small versions of the print on
a single 8x10, each with a different curve applied.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com


_______________________________________________

  -----Original Message-----
  From: charlesdarwinau [mailto:imaginaryapple@...]
  Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 10:07 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: [newbie] epson 1160 or 1200


  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark"
  <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
  > >... the different manufacturers
  > >providing the inks and also the 4-color 6-color difference.
  >
  > >... I am trying to keep the cost as low as possible, so Piezo is
  > >prolly out of the question, MIS, with its workflows and
  > >new FS and neutral tones sounds better for me (and my wallet).
  >
  > >... here in Australia 1160 are easy to get
  > >compared with 1200, however if hextone offers far
  > >superior quality then I
  > >don't mind spending a bit of time finding a 1200.
  >
  > While some can see the difference in quality between the 1160 and
  the
  > hextones, I prefer the quads -- 1160 and 3000.  They are more
  flexible and
  > easier to load inks into.
  >
  > With the variable-tone inks, the quads don't have a "light" toner
  position.
  > Thus, some see the toner dots in the highlights.  At viewing
  distance and
  > normal viewing conditions, I don't see them.  At very close
  inspection I do.
  > I think the differences with real world prints is minor.  Others may
  > disagree.
  >
  > With the FS inks, which have a very light gray and no toner, I
  really doubt
  > anyone can tell the difference between an 1160 and 1200 output.
  >
  > If you ever want to play with the Piezo driver and inks, the
  hextone Piezo
  > arrangement excludes the Epson driver workflows.  This is a serious
  > limitation, as the Epson workflows have some advantages in some
  > circumstances.  The ability to use alternative drivers and
  workflows can be
  > important, as none is perfect.  When one has a glitch that shows up
  in a
  > particular print, being able to use a different one is really
  nice.  The
  > quads can do this, the hextones cannot.
  >
  > So, I recommend the 1160.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Use the Adobe color space. You won't notice any difference.

Jerry

Paul Roark wrote:

> 
> >... paul, another question I need to ask is regarding your
> >workflows, if I use the same setups as you did
> >(1160, archival matte, MIS VM), would I get the
> >same results as yours? or is it also
> >dependent on the color configuration of my computer?
> 
> The original workflow for the MIS VM inks calls for the "Photoshop 5
> Default" color settings under Edit, Color Settings. This includes the sRGB
> color space (which, as it turns out, is unfortunate).
> 
> I use a PC, so the Mac performance would be different.
> 
> I now have a working 1160 again, and I'll probably do a set of "no color
> adjustment," Adobe RGB curves that will be cross-platform and not affected
> by the PS 7 sRGB conversion glitch.  I will probably do this for the
> vm-sepia inkset, which is what I now use and recommend (unless you really
> like cold, as opposed to neutral, prints).
> 
> >Also from my understanding your workflow is not WYSIWYG, ...
> 
> They are not WYSIWYG in the sense that the image is edited in grayscale, so
> the tones are not on the screen.  The monitor and the grayscale image can be
> as comparable as in the Piezo workflow (and the monitor does not reflect the
> tone of that ink either).  In the VM workflow, when you convert to RGB and
> apply a tone/partitioning curve for printing, you get a false-color image
> that you would not want to work with or save (although I have saved a few
> split-tone files in RGB).
> 
> I have no idea whether one could make setup that would show the tones in the
> VM workflow.  I think it is a minor issue, myself.  I always print draft
> copies of images, because I don't consider any monitor good enough to rely
> on for a final print.  Sometimes I'll print 4 small versions of the print on
> a single 8x10, each with a different curve applied.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: charlesdarwinau [mailto:imaginaryapple@...]
>   Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 10:07 PM
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: [newbie] epson 1160 or 1200
> 
>   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark"
>   <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>   > >... the different manufacturers
>   > >providing the inks and also the 4-color 6-color difference.
>   >
>   > >... I am trying to keep the cost as low as possible, so Piezo is
>   > >prolly out of the question, MIS, with its workflows and
>   > >new FS and neutral tones sounds better for me (and my wallet).
>   >
>   > >... here in Australia 1160 are easy to get
>   > >compared with 1200, however if hextone offers far
>   > >superior quality then I
>   > >don't mind spending a bit of time finding a 1200.
>   >
>   > While some can see the difference in quality between the 1160 and
>   the
>   > hextones, I prefer the quads -- 1160 and 3000.  They are more
>   flexible and
>   > easier to load inks into.
>   >
>   > With the variable-tone inks, the quads don't have a "light" toner
>   position.
>   > Thus, some see the toner dots in the highlights.  At viewing
>   distance and
>   > normal viewing conditions, I don't see them.  At very close
>   inspection I do.
>   > I think the differences with real world prints is minor.  Others may
>   > disagree.
>   >
>   > With the FS inks, which have a very light gray and no toner, I
>   really doubt
>   > anyone can tell the difference between an 1160 and 1200 output.
>   >
>   > If you ever want to play with the Piezo driver and inks, the
>   hextone Piezo
>   > arrangement excludes the Epson driver workflows.  This is a serious
>   > limitation, as the Epson workflows have some advantages in some
>   > circumstances.  The ability to use alternative drivers and
>   workflows can be
>   > important, as none is perfect.  When one has a glitch that shows up
>   in a
>   > particular print, being able to use a different one is really
>   nice.  The
>   > quads can do this, the hextones cannot.
>   >
>   > So, I recommend the 1160.
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

----- Original Message -----

From: "charlesdarwinau" <imaginaryapple@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 11:07 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: [newbie] epson 1160 or 1200


(snip)
>
> Thanks paul, another question I need to ask is regarding your
> workflows, if I use the same setups as you did (1160, archival matte,
> MIS VM), would I get the same results as yours? or is it also
> dependent on the color configuration of my computer?
>
> Also from my understanding your workflow is not WYSIWYG, whereas if I
> went through the trouble of making a transfer function itd be, are
> there anyways of allowing WYSIWYG in pshop while taking advantage of
> your easy-to-use workflows? what about WYSIWYG variable tones is it
> possible?

Charles,

I have very good WYSIWYG set up for the MIS-VM inks on Photo Rag using a
profile generated by Profiler Pro. After the RGB curve has been applied you
use the profile via View>Proof Setup>Custom in Photoshop. I then do my image
editing in this mode which reflects both the color of the ink specific to
the chosen curve, neutral, medium warm, etc., and the base color of the
paper. You can use the profile to preview what the image would look like
with different curves applied. This is really a great way to work and speeds
up the process of getting to a final print. I still do some tweaking after
seeing some real prints though. A back illuminated screen image is never
quite the same as ink on paper.

The bad news on this is that I spent $900 for Profiler Pro from ColorVision
and another $1,200 for a SpectroCam photospectrometer to measure the
required test patches and feed the data to Profiler Pro. I would share the
profile but the ProfilerPro license does not allow me to do that.

The next best alternative to full color WYSIWYG is Tyler Boley's method of
setting up and using a custom dot gain curve with your workflow. Check out
"Matching Your Monitor View to Your Prints in the Files section of the group
homepage in folder:

Files > Image processing

Bottom line you can make great prints without any of this. After all, an
enlarge in a darkroom gives you zero WYSIWYG! All your decisions are based
upon the previous print and you can work that way in digital as well.

Martin Wesley


http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> Charles,
> 
> I have very good WYSIWYG set up for the MIS-VM inks on Photo Rag 
using a
> profile generated by Profiler Pro. After the RGB curve has been 
applied you
> use the profile via View>Proof Setup>Custom in Photoshop. I then do 
my image
> editing in this mode which reflects both the color of the ink 
specific to
> the chosen curve, neutral, medium warm, etc., and the base color of 
the
> paper. You can use the profile to preview what the image would look 
like
> with different curves applied. This is really a great way to work 
and speeds
> up the process of getting to a final print. I still do some 
tweaking after
> seeing some real prints though. A back illuminated screen image is 
never
> quite the same as ink on paper.
> 
> The bad news on this is that I spent $900 for Profiler Pro from 
ColorVision
> and another $1,200 for a SpectroCam photospectrometer to measure the
> required test patches and feed the data to Profiler Pro. I would 
share the
> profile but the ProfilerPro license does not allow me to do that.
> 
> The next best alternative to full color WYSIWYG is Tyler Boley's 
method of
> setting up and using a custom dot gain curve with your workflow. 
Check out
> "Matching Your Monitor View to Your Prints in the Files section of 
the group
> homepage in folder:
> 
> Files > Image processing
> 
> Bottom line you can make great prints without any of this. After 
all, an
> enlarge in a darkroom gives you zero WYSIWYG! All your decisions 
are based
> upon the previous print and you can work that way in digital as 
well.
> 
> Martin Wesley
> 
> 
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

Thanks Martin for the reply, being a complete newbie I am a little 
bit confused about the "Matching Your Monitor View to Your Prints" 
article, does it permit MIS VM tones? so I get to WYSIWYG the tones?

Although im a complete novice in MIS inks, I have played around with 
pshop before and I wonder if I can use the Duotone/Quadtone mode in 
pshop to preview the prints? Basically Id apply Paul's curves to a 
set of quadtones (for VM it is the toner and the blacks) Has anyone 
tried this to preview their prints? 

The downside to this method is that you can't turn it on and off like 
in CMYK proof preview...

----- Original Message -----
From: "charlesdarwinau" <imaginaryapple@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 8:12 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: [newbie] epson 1160 or 1200


> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > Charles,
> >
> > I have very good WYSIWYG set up for the MIS-VM inks on Photo Rag
> using a
> > profile generated by Profiler Pro. After the RGB curve has been
> applied you

(snip)

>
> Thanks Martin for the reply, being a complete newbie I am a little
> bit confused about the "Matching Your Monitor View to Your Prints"
> article, does it permit MIS VM tones? so I get to WYSIWYG the tones?

Charles,

Tyler's method will give you a good neutral density match with each
combination of a specific curve and paper (a lot of the combinations will be
close enough that a single dot gain curve can be used for all of them). This
will meet most of your needs as far as previewing the effect of now changes
to the image on screen will effect the print. It is a grayscale match but
can be used with any workflow, even ones where you switch to RGB mode and
apply curves.
>
> Although im a complete novice in MIS inks, I have played around with
> pshop before and I wonder if I can use the Duotone/Quadtone mode in
> pshop to preview the prints? Basically Id apply Paul's curves to a
> set of quadtones (for VM it is the toner and the blacks) Has anyone
> tried this to preview their prints?

Well in giving it a try on screen it is interesting to note that it seem to
work except that the results do not resemble the on screen Quadtone image in
hue. You cannot apply the RGB separation curves in Quadtone mode and must
first convert to RGB. This conversion keeps the color info of the Quadtone
mode intact but this is all lost when you print with the VM inks since it
cannot duplicate the colors the Quadtone curves want to access. The basic
density of the image does seem to stay constant though.

Try printing some step wedges with this method and compare them to your
screen image of the wedge.
>
> The downside to this method is that you can't turn it on and off like
> in CMYK proof preview...

True. Give Tyler's method a try and see how it works for you. That you can
turn on and off I think that you will find it is pretty good. Try it with a
mono-ink print using the Epson inks.

Martin
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>