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Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review

Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review

2002-07-17 by Martin Wesley

Due to a typo and a mistake regarding Dmax in my initial post, I am
reposting this information to clear up any misunderstandings (and correct my
grammar. <G>).

Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review (Cross posted)

I received sample bottles of ConeTech's new selenium hue PiezoTone ink about
three weeks ago for Beta testing and have been using them steadily with a
CIS in an Epson 1280 for the past two weeks.

As far as my own personal tastes go, this is the best grayscale ink set I
have seen and I prefer it to anything else I have tried. The hue and the
chromatic complexity of the prints I have been making over the past few days
is indeed right in the range that we commonly associate with selenium toned
silver fiber prints. They have slightly cool highlights and a touch of
magenta in the midtones and shadows. I have toned silver prints on Ilford,
Kodak and Oriental hanging on my living room wall and, while the Selenium PT
prints are not an exact match to any of them, they fit right in. Only their
matte surface gives them away as not being air dried silver fiber and mixed
with matte surface silver fiber would be undetectable as inkjet.

I would not call the Selenium PT inks "neutral" and probably would not like
them so much if they were. The standard selenium toned silver fiber print
that we tend to think of as neutral is in fact not neutral at all. The
nature of the specific emulsion, the color of the paper base and the manner
in which the toning was done results in a print that is subtly varies in hue
as well as tone. This variation that I call chromatic complexity is what
makes silver prints so wonderful and so alive. Even book publishers know
that a true monotone does not adequately represent a photograph and quality
books are done using 2 to 4 inks of different hue to simulate what is
happening in a silver print.

My primary paper is Hahnemuhle Photo Rag and the Selenium PT works
beautifully with this paper. I think the tone on EAM may be a bit better
though. This is my standard proofing paper but the difference in tone may
pull me back in that direction although Photo Rag is probably more archival,
has a nicer texture and brighter white, there seems to be less warming on
the EAM and the initial hue is just a bit more pleasing.

I also tried prints on Hahnem\ufffdhle German Etching and William Turner, Crane
Museo, Legion Photo Matte and Eclipse Satine. The finished look of the print
varies a great deal with the paper you use and this is good news since it
means you can get a lot of different looks just by switching paper. The very
white Legion Photo Matte and Eclipse Satine (Jon can we please, please have
a paper profile for Eclipse!?!?) show more blue and greater variation in hue
overall. The neutral paper base lets all the complex tones in the inks show
through. The Legion Photo Matte is too bright for my taste but the Eclipse
looks very interesting. It seems to do much better with the Selenium PT than
it did with the original Piezo inks. I tried the Orwell profile but it was
not quite right in the lower tones. On the German Etching and Wil. Turner
the prints were excellent but the cream-colored paper base cancels out a
good deal of the coolness in the highlights giving a more neutral look.
Museo is very pleasant with this ink set. Some of the coolness is lost but
it still a very nice alternative to Photo Rag and EAM.

The Dmax of the Selenium PT is identical to the Warm Neutral. Which is to
say very high. On EAM I recorded values in the 1.71 range and on Photo Rag
at 1.80. These were taken from wedges printed using the Piezo driver. The
Photo Rag density is getting very close to silver print Dmax. So close that
the difference does not jump out at you like it does when the inkjet print
Dmax is down at 1.6. Since it appears that the black of the Selenium PT is
the same as the Warm-Neutral it should be possible to obtain even higher
Dmax values using other drivers. With the Warm-Neutral I was getting Dmax
values in the 1.88 to 1.90 range and values of 1.94 have been reported.

Regarding fading I have no data and I don't know how it will compare to
other ink sets. Jon has said it is undergoing RIT testing and did well on
in-house Xenon fade testing. I do notice some warming. It takes about 12 to
24 hours for the prints to "settle" and achieve Dmax and initial color. This
is similar to what I saw with the WN-PT. The change is not very large and
you can accurately assess your prints out of the printer reasonably well
once they are dry. After a few days the Photo Rag prints did show some
visible warm shifting but it seems slight and not objectionable. The EAM
showed much less warm shifting. This is pretty much in keeping with the
other ink sets I have tried.

Metamerism seems very slight and not at all unpleasant. In tungsten and
halogen light the prints are warmer as you would expect and the magenta
predominates a bit. In fluorescent, daylight and mixed tungsten/daylight the
prints are more neutral. Looks great under all light sources that I tried.

Like the WN-PiezoTones I experienced no clogging problems or green casts.
The CIS started right up immediately after vacuum loading and 4 nozzle
cleanings, and has passed every nozzle check since.

At this point my favorite inks for use with the Piezo driver are
Selenium-PiezoTone, Warm Neutral-PiezoTone, MIS-FS and MIS-FS Neutral in
that order. For me and my own tastes, I think the PiezoTones are the better
way to go. I especially recommend the Selenium-PT to people who are
transitioning from traditional silver fiber printing to inkjet. While you
will still need to get used to the matte surface of the papers, you will not
have to go through a big hue adjustment.

All in all the Selenium-PiezoTone inks represent a really stunning addition
to what is available for inkjet printing. With the reduced price of the
Piezo driver and these new inks, I strongly suggest you give them a try. We
each have our own likes and preferences but I will be very surprised if this
does not become a top contender for the most popular ink set.

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

RE: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review

2002-07-17 by Steadman Uhlich

Hey Martin,

Thanks for taking the time to post such a long and detailed review.  As
always, I appreciate your experience and your sharing of your opinions and
testing results with us.  The Selenium PiezoTones sound pretty "cool"  (that
being a neat, nice, different, pick your own adjective...) (wINK).

Oh...and this is not to slight Robert Morrison, who's testing of the inks
and papers is also appreciated too.

Regards,

Steadman
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
  Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 1:58 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review


  Due to a typo and a mistake regarding Dmax in my initial post, I am
  reposting this information to clear up any misunderstandings (and correct
my
  grammar. <G>).

  Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review (Cross posted)

  I received sample bottles of ConeTech's new selenium hue PiezoTone ink
about
  three weeks ago for Beta testing and have been using them steadily with a
  CIS in an Epson 1280 for the past two weeks.

  As far as my own personal tastes go, this is the best grayscale ink set I
  have seen and I prefer it to anything else I have tried. The hue and the
  chromatic complexity of the prints I have been making over the past few
days
  is indeed right in the range that we commonly associate with selenium
toned
  silver fiber prints. They have slightly cool highlights and a touch of
  magenta in the midtones and shadows. I have toned silver prints on Ilford,
  Kodak and Oriental hanging on my living room wall and, while the Selenium
PT
  prints are not an exact match to any of them, they fit right in. Only
their
  matte surface gives them away as not being air dried silver fiber and
mixed
  with matte surface silver fiber would be undetectable as inkjet.

  I would not call the Selenium PT inks "neutral" and probably would not
like
  them so much if they were. The standard selenium toned silver fiber print
  that we tend to think of as neutral is in fact not neutral at all. The
  nature of the specific emulsion, the color of the paper base and the
manner
  in which the toning was done results in a print that is subtly varies in
hue
  as well as tone. This variation that I call chromatic complexity is what
  makes silver prints so wonderful and so alive. Even book publishers know
  that a true monotone does not adequately represent a photograph and
quality
  books are done using 2 to 4 inks of different hue to simulate what is
  happening in a silver print.

  My primary paper is Hahnemuhle Photo Rag and the Selenium PT works
  beautifully with this paper. I think the tone on EAM may be a bit better
  though. This is my standard proofing paper but the difference in tone may
  pull me back in that direction although Photo Rag is probably more
archival,
  has a nicer texture and brighter white, there seems to be less warming on
  the EAM and the initial hue is just a bit more pleasing.

  I also tried prints on Hahnemühle German Etching and William Turner, Crane
  Museo, Legion Photo Matte and Eclipse Satine. The finished look of the
print
  varies a great deal with the paper you use and this is good news since it
  means you can get a lot of different looks just by switching paper. The
very
  white Legion Photo Matte and Eclipse Satine (Jon can we please, please
have
  a paper profile for Eclipse!?!?) show more blue and greater variation in
hue
  overall. The neutral paper base lets all the complex tones in the inks
show
  through. The Legion Photo Matte is too bright for my taste but the Eclipse
  looks very interesting. It seems to do much better with the Selenium PT
than
  it did with the original Piezo inks. I tried the Orwell profile but it was
  not quite right in the lower tones. On the German Etching and Wil. Turner
  the prints were excellent but the cream-colored paper base cancels out a
  good deal of the coolness in the highlights giving a more neutral look.
  Museo is very pleasant with this ink set. Some of the coolness is lost but
  it still a very nice alternative to Photo Rag and EAM.

  The Dmax of the Selenium PT is identical to the Warm Neutral. Which is to
  say very high. On EAM I recorded values in the 1.71 range and on Photo Rag
  at 1.80. These were taken from wedges printed using the Piezo driver. The
  Photo Rag density is getting very close to silver print Dmax. So close
that
  the difference does not jump out at you like it does when the inkjet print
  Dmax is down at 1.6. Since it appears that the black of the Selenium PT is
  the same as the Warm-Neutral it should be possible to obtain even higher
  Dmax values using other drivers. With the Warm-Neutral I was getting Dmax
  values in the 1.88 to 1.90 range and values of 1.94 have been reported.

  Regarding fading I have no data and I don't know how it will compare to
  other ink sets. Jon has said it is undergoing RIT testing and did well on
  in-house Xenon fade testing. I do notice some warming. It takes about 12
to
  24 hours for the prints to "settle" and achieve Dmax and initial color.
This
  is similar to what I saw with the WN-PT. The change is not very large and
  you can accurately assess your prints out of the printer reasonably well
  once they are dry. After a few days the Photo Rag prints did show some
  visible warm shifting but it seems slight and not objectionable. The EAM
  showed much less warm shifting. This is pretty much in keeping with the
  other ink sets I have tried.

  Metamerism seems very slight and not at all unpleasant. In tungsten and
  halogen light the prints are warmer as you would expect and the magenta
  predominates a bit. In fluorescent, daylight and mixed tungsten/daylight
the
  prints are more neutral. Looks great under all light sources that I tried.

  Like the WN-PiezoTones I experienced no clogging problems or green casts.
  The CIS started right up immediately after vacuum loading and 4 nozzle
  cleanings, and has passed every nozzle check since.

  At this point my favorite inks for use with the Piezo driver are
  Selenium-PiezoTone, Warm Neutral-PiezoTone, MIS-FS and MIS-FS Neutral in
  that order. For me and my own tastes, I think the PiezoTones are the
better
  way to go. I especially recommend the Selenium-PT to people who are
  transitioning from traditional silver fiber printing to inkjet. While you
  will still need to get used to the matte surface of the papers, you will
not
  have to go through a big hue adjustment.

  All in all the Selenium-PiezoTone inks represent a really stunning
addition
  to what is available for inkjet printing. With the reduced price of the
  Piezo driver and these new inks, I strongly suggest you give them a try.
We
  each have our own likes and preferences but I will be very surprised if
this
  does not become a top contender for the most popular ink set.

  Martin Wesley

  http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review

2002-07-17 by Robert G. Morrison

Double thanks to Martin, I also appreciated your review...it was great to
hear the comments of a veteran silver printer...which I am not.  I'm glad to
hear that I wasn't the only person that liked the ink set.  I'm really
looking forward to trying it with Eclipse.  I'm getting a piezotone dmax of
1.65 with eclipse with IP.  It comes up to about 2 when coated.  The
uncoated dmax is significantly duller than eam or photorag though.  I think
that the Selenium tones on Eclipse then coated might be the closest thing we
will get to a fiber based silver print...but we will have to see how much
the coatings change the tonality of the inks. The whole process  is a fair
bit of work...but not nearly as much work as actually making a silver print
with a difficult image!

Robert
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 7/17/02 3:07 PM, "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...> wrote:

> Hey Martin,
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to post such a long and detailed review.  As
> always, I appreciate your experience and your sharing of your opinions and
> testing results with us.  The Selenium PiezoTones sound pretty "cool"  (that
> being a neat, nice, different, pick your own adjective...) (wINK).
> 
> Oh...and this is not to slight Robert Morrison, who's testing of the inks
> and papers is also appreciated too.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Steadman
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 1:58 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review
> 
> 
> Due to a typo and a mistake regarding Dmax in my initial post, I am
> reposting this information to clear up any misunderstandings (and correct
> my
> grammar. <G>).
> 
> Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review (Cross posted)
> 
> I received sample bottles of ConeTech's new selenium hue PiezoTone ink
> about
> three weeks ago for Beta testing and have been using them steadily with a
> CIS in an Epson 1280 for the past two weeks.
> 
> As far as my own personal tastes go, this is the best grayscale ink set I
> have seen and I prefer it to anything else I have tried. The hue and the
> chromatic complexity of the prints I have been making over the past few
> days
> is indeed right in the range that we commonly associate with selenium
> toned
> silver fiber prints. They have slightly cool highlights and a touch of
> magenta in the midtones and shadows. I have toned silver prints on Ilford,
> Kodak and Oriental hanging on my living room wall and, while the Selenium
> PT
> prints are not an exact match to any of them, they fit right in. Only
> their
> matte surface gives them away as not being air dried silver fiber and
> mixed
> with matte surface silver fiber would be undetectable as inkjet.
> 
> I would not call the Selenium PT inks "neutral" and probably would not
> like
> them so much if they were. The standard selenium toned silver fiber print
> that we tend to think of as neutral is in fact not neutral at all. The
> nature of the specific emulsion, the color of the paper base and the
> manner
> in which the toning was done results in a print that is subtly varies in
> hue
> as well as tone. This variation that I call chromatic complexity is what
> makes silver prints so wonderful and so alive. Even book publishers know
> that a true monotone does not adequately represent a photograph and
> quality
> books are done using 2 to 4 inks of different hue to simulate what is
> happening in a silver print.
> 
> My primary paper is Hahnemuhle Photo Rag and the Selenium PT works
> beautifully with this paper. I think the tone on EAM may be a bit better
> though. This is my standard proofing paper but the difference in tone may
> pull me back in that direction although Photo Rag is probably more
> archival,
> has a nicer texture and brighter white, there seems to be less warming on
> the EAM and the initial hue is just a bit more pleasing.
> 
> I also tried prints on Hahnemühle German Etching and William Turner, Crane
> Museo, Legion Photo Matte and Eclipse Satine. The finished look of the
> print
> varies a great deal with the paper you use and this is good news since it
> means you can get a lot of different looks just by switching paper. The
> very
> white Legion Photo Matte and Eclipse Satine (Jon can we please, please
> have
> a paper profile for Eclipse!?!?) show more blue and greater variation in
> hue
> overall. The neutral paper base lets all the complex tones in the inks
> show
> through. The Legion Photo Matte is too bright for my taste but the Eclipse
> looks very interesting. It seems to do much better with the Selenium PT
> than
> it did with the original Piezo inks. I tried the Orwell profile but it was
> not quite right in the lower tones. On the German Etching and Wil. Turner
> the prints were excellent but the cream-colored paper base cancels out a
> good deal of the coolness in the highlights giving a more neutral look.
> Museo is very pleasant with this ink set. Some of the coolness is lost but
> it still a very nice alternative to Photo Rag and EAM.
> 
> The Dmax of the Selenium PT is identical to the Warm Neutral. Which is to
> say very high. On EAM I recorded values in the 1.71 range and on Photo Rag
> at 1.80. These were taken from wedges printed using the Piezo driver. The
> Photo Rag density is getting very close to silver print Dmax. So close
> that
> the difference does not jump out at you like it does when the inkjet print
> Dmax is down at 1.6. Since it appears that the black of the Selenium PT is
> the same as the Warm-Neutral it should be possible to obtain even higher
> Dmax values using other drivers. With the Warm-Neutral I was getting Dmax
> values in the 1.88 to 1.90 range and values of 1.94 have been reported.
> 
> Regarding fading I have no data and I don't know how it will compare to
> other ink sets. Jon has said it is undergoing RIT testing and did well on
> in-house Xenon fade testing. I do notice some warming. It takes about 12
> to
> 24 hours for the prints to "settle" and achieve Dmax and initial color.
> This
> is similar to what I saw with the WN-PT. The change is not very large and
> you can accurately assess your prints out of the printer reasonably well
> once they are dry. After a few days the Photo Rag prints did show some
> visible warm shifting but it seems slight and not objectionable. The EAM
> showed much less warm shifting. This is pretty much in keeping with the
> other ink sets I have tried.
> 
> Metamerism seems very slight and not at all unpleasant. In tungsten and
> halogen light the prints are warmer as you would expect and the magenta
> predominates a bit. In fluorescent, daylight and mixed tungsten/daylight
> the
> prints are more neutral. Looks great under all light sources that I tried.
> 
> Like the WN-PiezoTones I experienced no clogging problems or green casts.
> The CIS started right up immediately after vacuum loading and 4 nozzle
> cleanings, and has passed every nozzle check since.
> 
> At this point my favorite inks for use with the Piezo driver are
> Selenium-PiezoTone, Warm Neutral-PiezoTone, MIS-FS and MIS-FS Neutral in
> that order. For me and my own tastes, I think the PiezoTones are the
> better
> way to go. I especially recommend the Selenium-PT to people who are
> transitioning from traditional silver fiber printing to inkjet. While you
> will still need to get used to the matte surface of the papers, you will
> not
> have to go through a big hue adjustment.
> 
> All in all the Selenium-PiezoTone inks represent a really stunning
> addition
> to what is available for inkjet printing. With the reduced price of the
> Piezo driver and these new inks, I strongly suggest you give them a try.
> We
> each have our own likes and preferences but I will be very surprised if
> this
> does not become a top contender for the most popular ink set.
> 
> Martin Wesley
> 
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
>       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> 
>       Click here to find your contact lenses!
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

RE: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review

2002-07-18 by Steadman Uhlich

To Robert and Martin:

I sure do wish that Jon would profile the Eclipse for the new inks.  I
really like Eclipse...very nice paper.

Steadman
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Robert G. Morrison [mailto:rmorrison@...m]
  Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 6:31 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review


  Double thanks to Martin, I also appreciated your review...it was great to
  hear the comments of a veteran silver printer...which I am not.  I'm glad
to
  hear that I wasn't the only person that liked the ink set.  I'm really
  looking forward to trying it with Eclipse.  I'm getting a piezotone dmax
of
  1.65 with eclipse with IP.  It comes up to about 2 when coated.  The
  uncoated dmax is significantly duller than eam or photorag though.  I
think
  that the Selenium tones on Eclipse then coated might be the closest thing
we
  will get to a fiber based silver print...but we will have to see how much
  the coatings change the tonality of the inks. The whole process  is a fair
  bit of work...but not nearly as much work as actually making a silver
print
  with a difficult image!

  Robert


  On 7/17/02 3:07 PM, "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...> wrote:

  > Hey Martin,
  >
  > Thanks for taking the time to post such a long and detailed review.  As
  > always, I appreciate your experience and your sharing of your opinions
and
  > testing results with us.  The Selenium PiezoTones sound pretty "cool"
(that
  > being a neat, nice, different, pick your own adjective...) (wINK).
  >
  > Oh...and this is not to slight Robert Morrison, who's testing of the
inks
  > and papers is also appreciated too.
  >
  > Regards,
  >
  > Steadman
  > -----Original Message-----
  > From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
  > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 1:58 PM
  > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  > Subject: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review
  >
  >
  > Due to a typo and a mistake regarding Dmax in my initial post, I am
  > reposting this information to clear up any misunderstandings (and
correct
  > my
  > grammar. <G>).
  >
  > Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review (Cross posted)
  >
  > I received sample bottles of ConeTech's new selenium hue PiezoTone ink
  > about
  > three weeks ago for Beta testing and have been using them steadily with
a
  > CIS in an Epson 1280 for the past two weeks.
  >
  > As far as my own personal tastes go, this is the best grayscale ink set
I
  > have seen and I prefer it to anything else I have tried. The hue and the
  > chromatic complexity of the prints I have been making over the past few
  > days
  > is indeed right in the range that we commonly associate with selenium
  > toned
  > silver fiber prints. They have slightly cool highlights and a touch of
  > magenta in the midtones and shadows. I have toned silver prints on
Ilford,
  > Kodak and Oriental hanging on my living room wall and, while the
Selenium
  > PT
  > prints are not an exact match to any of them, they fit right in. Only
  > their
  > matte surface gives them away as not being air dried silver fiber and
  > mixed
  > with matte surface silver fiber would be undetectable as inkjet.
  >
  > I would not call the Selenium PT inks "neutral" and probably would not
  > like
  > them so much if they were. The standard selenium toned silver fiber
print
  > that we tend to think of as neutral is in fact not neutral at all. The
  > nature of the specific emulsion, the color of the paper base and the
  > manner
  > in which the toning was done results in a print that is subtly varies in
  > hue
  > as well as tone. This variation that I call chromatic complexity is what
  > makes silver prints so wonderful and so alive. Even book publishers know
  > that a true monotone does not adequately represent a photograph and
  > quality
  > books are done using 2 to 4 inks of different hue to simulate what is
  > happening in a silver print.
  >
  > My primary paper is Hahnemuhle Photo Rag and the Selenium PT works
  > beautifully with this paper. I think the tone on EAM may be a bit better
  > though. This is my standard proofing paper but the difference in tone
may
  > pull me back in that direction although Photo Rag is probably more
  > archival,
  > has a nicer texture and brighter white, there seems to be less warming
on
  > the EAM and the initial hue is just a bit more pleasing.
  >
  > I also tried prints on Hahnemühle German Etching and William Turner,
Crane
  > Museo, Legion Photo Matte and Eclipse Satine. The finished look of the
  > print
  > varies a great deal with the paper you use and this is good news since
it
  > means you can get a lot of different looks just by switching paper. The
  > very
  > white Legion Photo Matte and Eclipse Satine (Jon can we please, please
  > have
  > a paper profile for Eclipse!?!?) show more blue and greater variation in
  > hue
  > overall. The neutral paper base lets all the complex tones in the inks
  > show
  > through. The Legion Photo Matte is too bright for my taste but the
Eclipse
  > looks very interesting. It seems to do much better with the Selenium PT
  > than
  > it did with the original Piezo inks. I tried the Orwell profile but it
was
  > not quite right in the lower tones. On the German Etching and Wil.
Turner
  > the prints were excellent but the cream-colored paper base cancels out a
  > good deal of the coolness in the highlights giving a more neutral look.
  > Museo is very pleasant with this ink set. Some of the coolness is lost
but
  > it still a very nice alternative to Photo Rag and EAM.
  >
  > The Dmax of the Selenium PT is identical to the Warm Neutral. Which is
to
  > say very high. On EAM I recorded values in the 1.71 range and on Photo
Rag
  > at 1.80. These were taken from wedges printed using the Piezo driver.
The
  > Photo Rag density is getting very close to silver print Dmax. So close
  > that
  > the difference does not jump out at you like it does when the inkjet
print
  > Dmax is down at 1.6. Since it appears that the black of the Selenium PT
is
  > the same as the Warm-Neutral it should be possible to obtain even higher
  > Dmax values using other drivers. With the Warm-Neutral I was getting
Dmax
  > values in the 1.88 to 1.90 range and values of 1.94 have been reported.
  >
  > Regarding fading I have no data and I don't know how it will compare to
  > other ink sets. Jon has said it is undergoing RIT testing and did well
on
  > in-house Xenon fade testing. I do notice some warming. It takes about 12
  > to
  > 24 hours for the prints to "settle" and achieve Dmax and initial color.
  > This
  > is similar to what I saw with the WN-PT. The change is not very large
and
  > you can accurately assess your prints out of the printer reasonably well
  > once they are dry. After a few days the Photo Rag prints did show some
  > visible warm shifting but it seems slight and not objectionable. The EAM
  > showed much less warm shifting. This is pretty much in keeping with the
  > other ink sets I have tried.
  >
  > Metamerism seems very slight and not at all unpleasant. In tungsten and
  > halogen light the prints are warmer as you would expect and the magenta
  > predominates a bit. In fluorescent, daylight and mixed tungsten/daylight
  > the
  > prints are more neutral. Looks great under all light sources that I
tried.
  >
  > Like the WN-PiezoTones I experienced no clogging problems or green
casts.
  > The CIS started right up immediately after vacuum loading and 4 nozzle
  > cleanings, and has passed every nozzle check since.
  >
  > At this point my favorite inks for use with the Piezo driver are
  > Selenium-PiezoTone, Warm Neutral-PiezoTone, MIS-FS and MIS-FS Neutral in
  > that order. For me and my own tastes, I think the PiezoTones are the
  > better
  > way to go. I especially recommend the Selenium-PT to people who are
  > transitioning from traditional silver fiber printing to inkjet. While
you
  > will still need to get used to the matte surface of the papers, you will
  > not
  > have to go through a big hue adjustment.
  >
  > All in all the Selenium-PiezoTone inks represent a really stunning
  > addition
  > to what is available for inkjet printing. With the reduced price of the
  > Piezo driver and these new inks, I strongly suggest you give them a try.
  > We
  > each have our own likes and preferences but I will be very surprised if
  > this
  > does not become a top contender for the most popular ink set.
  >
  > Martin Wesley
  >
  > http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
  >
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  > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
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  >
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >
  >
  >
  > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
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  > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
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  >
  > Please follow these basic guidelines:
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  > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
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  > them short.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review

2002-07-18 by Martin Wesley

Steadman,

Well I certainly agree and maybe if we keep bugging Jon it will happen.
Eclipse seems to take the PiezoTone inks better than the original Piezo inks
so perhaps a profile will not be as difficult.

Martin
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 10:34 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review


To Robert and Martin:

I sure do wish that Jon would profile the Eclipse for the new inks.  I
really like Eclipse...very nice paper.

Steadman
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Robert G. Morrison [mailto:rmorrison@...]
  Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 6:31 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review


  Double thanks to Martin, I also appreciated your review...it was great to
  hear the comments of a veteran silver printer...which I am not.  I'm glad
to
  hear that I wasn't the only person that liked the ink set.  I'm really
  looking forward to trying it with Eclipse.  I'm getting a piezotone dmax
of
  1.65 with eclipse with IP.  It comes up to about 2 when coated.  The
  uncoated dmax is significantly duller than eam or photorag though.  I
think
  that the Selenium tones on Eclipse then coated might be the closest thing
we
  will get to a fiber based silver print...but we will have to see how much
  the coatings change the tonality of the inks. The whole process  is a fair
  bit of work...but not nearly as much work as actually making a silver
print
  with a difficult image!

  Robert


  On 7/17/02 3:07 PM, "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...> wrote:

  > Hey Martin,
  >
  > Thanks for taking the time to post such a long and detailed review.  As
  > always, I appreciate your experience and your sharing of your opinions
and
  > testing results with us.  The Selenium PiezoTones sound pretty "cool"
(that
  > being a neat, nice, different, pick your own adjective...) (wINK).
  >
  > Oh...and this is not to slight Robert Morrison, who's testing of the
inks
  > and papers is also appreciated too.
  >
  > Regards,
  >
  > Steadman
  > -----Original Message-----
  > From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
  > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 1:58 PM
  > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  > Subject: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review
  >
  >
  > Due to a typo and a mistake regarding Dmax in my initial post, I am
  > reposting this information to clear up any misunderstandings (and
correct
  > my
  > grammar. <G>).
  >
  > Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review (Cross posted)
  >
  > I received sample bottles of ConeTech's new selenium hue PiezoTone ink
  > about
  > three weeks ago for Beta testing and have been using them steadily with
a
  > CIS in an Epson 1280 for the past two weeks.
  >
  > As far as my own personal tastes go, this is the best grayscale ink set
I
  > have seen and I prefer it to anything else I have tried. The hue and the
  > chromatic complexity of the prints I have been making over the past few
  > days
  > is indeed right in the range that we commonly associate with selenium
  > toned
  > silver fiber prints. They have slightly cool highlights and a touch of
  > magenta in the midtones and shadows. I have toned silver prints on
Ilford,
  > Kodak and Oriental hanging on my living room wall and, while the
Selenium
  > PT
  > prints are not an exact match to any of them, they fit right in. Only
  > their
  > matte surface gives them away as not being air dried silver fiber and
  > mixed
  > with matte surface silver fiber would be undetectable as inkjet.
  >
  > I would not call the Selenium PT inks "neutral" and probably would not
  > like
  > them so much if they were. The standard selenium toned silver fiber
print
  > that we tend to think of as neutral is in fact not neutral at all. The
  > nature of the specific emulsion, the color of the paper base and the
  > manner
  > in which the toning was done results in a print that is subtly varies in
  > hue
  > as well as tone. This variation that I call chromatic complexity is what
  > makes silver prints so wonderful and so alive. Even book publishers know
  > that a true monotone does not adequately represent a photograph and
  > quality
  > books are done using 2 to 4 inks of different hue to simulate what is
  > happening in a silver print.
  >
  > My primary paper is Hahnemuhle Photo Rag and the Selenium PT works
  > beautifully with this paper. I think the tone on EAM may be a bit better
  > though. This is my standard proofing paper but the difference in tone
may
  > pull me back in that direction although Photo Rag is probably more
  > archival,
  > has a nicer texture and brighter white, there seems to be less warming
on
  > the EAM and the initial hue is just a bit more pleasing.
  >
  > I also tried prints on Hahnem\ufffdhle German Etching and William Turner,
Crane
  > Museo, Legion Photo Matte and Eclipse Satine. The finished look of the
  > print
  > varies a great deal with the paper you use and this is good news since
it
  > means you can get a lot of different looks just by switching paper. The
  > very
  > white Legion Photo Matte and Eclipse Satine (Jon can we please, please
  > have
  > a paper profile for Eclipse!?!?) show more blue and greater variation in
  > hue
  > overall. The neutral paper base lets all the complex tones in the inks
  > show
  > through. The Legion Photo Matte is too bright for my taste but the
Eclipse
  > looks very interesting. It seems to do much better with the Selenium PT
  > than
  > it did with the original Piezo inks. I tried the Orwell profile but it
was
  > not quite right in the lower tones. On the German Etching and Wil.
Turner
  > the prints were excellent but the cream-colored paper base cancels out a
  > good deal of the coolness in the highlights giving a more neutral look.
  > Museo is very pleasant with this ink set. Some of the coolness is lost
but
  > it still a very nice alternative to Photo Rag and EAM.
  >
  > The Dmax of the Selenium PT is identical to the Warm Neutral. Which is
to
  > say very high. On EAM I recorded values in the 1.71 range and on Photo
Rag
  > at 1.80. These were taken from wedges printed using the Piezo driver.
The
  > Photo Rag density is getting very close to silver print Dmax. So close
  > that
  > the difference does not jump out at you like it does when the inkjet
print
  > Dmax is down at 1.6. Since it appears that the black of the Selenium PT
is
  > the same as the Warm-Neutral it should be possible to obtain even higher
  > Dmax values using other drivers. With the Warm-Neutral I was getting
Dmax
  > values in the 1.88 to 1.90 range and values of 1.94 have been reported.
  >
  > Regarding fading I have no data and I don't know how it will compare to
  > other ink sets. Jon has said it is undergoing RIT testing and did well
on
  > in-house Xenon fade testing. I do notice some warming. It takes about 12
  > to
  > 24 hours for the prints to "settle" and achieve Dmax and initial color.
  > This
  > is similar to what I saw with the WN-PT. The change is not very large
and
  > you can accurately assess your prints out of the printer reasonably well
  > once they are dry. After a few days the Photo Rag prints did show some
  > visible warm shifting but it seems slight and not objectionable. The EAM
  > showed much less warm shifting. This is pretty much in keeping with the
  > other ink sets I have tried.
  >
  > Metamerism seems very slight and not at all unpleasant. In tungsten and
  > halogen light the prints are warmer as you would expect and the magenta
  > predominates a bit. In fluorescent, daylight and mixed tungsten/daylight
  > the
  > prints are more neutral. Looks great under all light sources that I
tried.
  >
  > Like the WN-PiezoTones I experienced no clogging problems or green
casts.
  > The CIS started right up immediately after vacuum loading and 4 nozzle
  > cleanings, and has passed every nozzle check since.
  >
  > At this point my favorite inks for use with the Piezo driver are
  > Selenium-PiezoTone, Warm Neutral-PiezoTone, MIS-FS and MIS-FS Neutral in
  > that order. For me and my own tastes, I think the PiezoTones are the
  > better
  > way to go. I especially recommend the Selenium-PT to people who are
  > transitioning from traditional silver fiber printing to inkjet. While
you
  > will still need to get used to the matte surface of the papers, you will
  > not
  > have to go through a big hue adjustment.
  >
  > All in all the Selenium-PiezoTone inks represent a really stunning
  > addition
  > to what is available for inkjet printing. With the reduced price of the
  > Piezo driver and these new inks, I strongly suggest you give them a try.
  > We
  > each have our own likes and preferences but I will be very surprised if
  > this
  > does not become a top contender for the most popular ink set.
  >
  > Martin Wesley
  >
  > http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
  >
  >       Click here to find your contact lenses!
  >
  > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
  > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
  >
  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
  >
  > Please follow these basic guidelines:
  > - Include your full name with your message.
  > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
  > them short.
  > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
  > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
  > "flames."
  > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
  > resources on the homepage.
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
  >
  >
  >
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >
  >
  >
  > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other
  > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
  >
  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
  >
  > Please follow these basic guidelines:
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  > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
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  > them short.
  > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
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  > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
  > "flames."
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  > resources on the homepage.
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Please follow these basic guidelines:
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- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
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Re: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review

2002-07-18 by Robert Morrison

On 7/17/02 10:34 PM, "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...> wrote:

> To Robert and Martin:
> 
> I sure do wish that Jon would profile the Eclipse for the new inks.  I
> really like Eclipse...very nice paper.

That's one of the reasons that I'm using IP.

Robert
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert G. Morrison [mailto:rmorrison@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 6:31 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review
> 
> 
> Double thanks to Martin, I also appreciated your review...it was great to
> hear the comments of a veteran silver printer...which I am not.  I'm glad
> to
> hear that I wasn't the only person that liked the ink set.  I'm really
> looking forward to trying it with Eclipse.  I'm getting a piezotone dmax
> of
> 1.65 with eclipse with IP.  It comes up to about 2 when coated.  The
> uncoated dmax is significantly duller than eam or photorag though.  I
> think
> that the Selenium tones on Eclipse then coated might be the closest thing
> we
> will get to a fiber based silver print...but we will have to see how much
> the coatings change the tonality of the inks. The whole process  is a fair
> bit of work...but not nearly as much work as actually making a silver
> print
> with a difficult image!
> 
> Robert
> 
> 
> On 7/17/02 3:07 PM, "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...> wrote:
> 
>> Hey Martin,
>> 
>> Thanks for taking the time to post such a long and detailed review.  As
>> always, I appreciate your experience and your sharing of your opinions
> and
>> testing results with us.  The Selenium PiezoTones sound pretty "cool"
> (that
>> being a neat, nice, different, pick your own adjective...) (wINK).
>> 
>> Oh...and this is not to slight Robert Morrison, who's testing of the
> inks
>> and papers is also appreciated too.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Steadman
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 1:58 PM
>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review
>> 
>> 
>> Due to a typo and a mistake regarding Dmax in my initial post, I am
>> reposting this information to clear up any misunderstandings (and
> correct
>> my
>> grammar. <G>).
>> 
>> Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review (Cross posted)
>> 
>> I received sample bottles of ConeTech's new selenium hue PiezoTone ink
>> about
>> three weeks ago for Beta testing and have been using them steadily with
> a
>> CIS in an Epson 1280 for the past two weeks.
>> 
>> As far as my own personal tastes go, this is the best grayscale ink set
> I
>> have seen and I prefer it to anything else I have tried. The hue and the
>> chromatic complexity of the prints I have been making over the past few
>> days
>> is indeed right in the range that we commonly associate with selenium
>> toned
>> silver fiber prints. They have slightly cool highlights and a touch of
>> magenta in the midtones and shadows. I have toned silver prints on
> Ilford,
>> Kodak and Oriental hanging on my living room wall and, while the
> Selenium
>> PT
>> prints are not an exact match to any of them, they fit right in. Only
>> their
>> matte surface gives them away as not being air dried silver fiber and
>> mixed
>> with matte surface silver fiber would be undetectable as inkjet.
>> 
>> I would not call the Selenium PT inks "neutral" and probably would not
>> like
>> them so much if they were. The standard selenium toned silver fiber
> print
>> that we tend to think of as neutral is in fact not neutral at all. The
>> nature of the specific emulsion, the color of the paper base and the
>> manner
>> in which the toning was done results in a print that is subtly varies in
>> hue
>> as well as tone. This variation that I call chromatic complexity is what
>> makes silver prints so wonderful and so alive. Even book publishers know
>> that a true monotone does not adequately represent a photograph and
>> quality
>> books are done using 2 to 4 inks of different hue to simulate what is
>> happening in a silver print.
>> 
>> My primary paper is Hahnemuhle Photo Rag and the Selenium PT works
>> beautifully with this paper. I think the tone on EAM may be a bit better
>> though. This is my standard proofing paper but the difference in tone
> may
>> pull me back in that direction although Photo Rag is probably more
>> archival,
>> has a nicer texture and brighter white, there seems to be less warming
> on
>> the EAM and the initial hue is just a bit more pleasing.
>> 
>> I also tried prints on Hahnemühle German Etching and William Turner,
> Crane
>> Museo, Legion Photo Matte and Eclipse Satine. The finished look of the
>> print
>> varies a great deal with the paper you use and this is good news since
> it
>> means you can get a lot of different looks just by switching paper. The
>> very
>> white Legion Photo Matte and Eclipse Satine (Jon can we please, please
>> have
>> a paper profile for Eclipse!?!?) show more blue and greater variation in
>> hue
>> overall. The neutral paper base lets all the complex tones in the inks
>> show
>> through. The Legion Photo Matte is too bright for my taste but the
> Eclipse
>> looks very interesting. It seems to do much better with the Selenium PT
>> than
>> it did with the original Piezo inks. I tried the Orwell profile but it
> was
>> not quite right in the lower tones. On the German Etching and Wil.
> Turner
>> the prints were excellent but the cream-colored paper base cancels out a
>> good deal of the coolness in the highlights giving a more neutral look.
>> Museo is very pleasant with this ink set. Some of the coolness is lost
> but
>> it still a very nice alternative to Photo Rag and EAM.
>> 
>> The Dmax of the Selenium PT is identical to the Warm Neutral. Which is
> to
>> say very high. On EAM I recorded values in the 1.71 range and on Photo
> Rag
>> at 1.80. These were taken from wedges printed using the Piezo driver.
> The
>> Photo Rag density is getting very close to silver print Dmax. So close
>> that
>> the difference does not jump out at you like it does when the inkjet
> print
>> Dmax is down at 1.6. Since it appears that the black of the Selenium PT
> is
>> the same as the Warm-Neutral it should be possible to obtain even higher
>> Dmax values using other drivers. With the Warm-Neutral I was getting
> Dmax
>> values in the 1.88 to 1.90 range and values of 1.94 have been reported.
>> 
>> Regarding fading I have no data and I don't know how it will compare to
>> other ink sets. Jon has said it is undergoing RIT testing and did well
> on
>> in-house Xenon fade testing. I do notice some warming. It takes about 12
>> to
>> 24 hours for the prints to "settle" and achieve Dmax and initial color.
>> This
>> is similar to what I saw with the WN-PT. The change is not very large
> and
>> you can accurately assess your prints out of the printer reasonably well
>> once they are dry. After a few days the Photo Rag prints did show some
>> visible warm shifting but it seems slight and not objectionable. The EAM
>> showed much less warm shifting. This is pretty much in keeping with the
>> other ink sets I have tried.
>> 
>> Metamerism seems very slight and not at all unpleasant. In tungsten and
>> halogen light the prints are warmer as you would expect and the magenta
>> predominates a bit. In fluorescent, daylight and mixed tungsten/daylight
>> the
>> prints are more neutral. Looks great under all light sources that I
> tried.
>> 
>> Like the WN-PiezoTones I experienced no clogging problems or green
> casts.
>> The CIS started right up immediately after vacuum loading and 4 nozzle
>> cleanings, and has passed every nozzle check since.
>> 
>> At this point my favorite inks for use with the Piezo driver are
>> Selenium-PiezoTone, Warm Neutral-PiezoTone, MIS-FS and MIS-FS Neutral in
>> that order. For me and my own tastes, I think the PiezoTones are the
>> better
>> way to go. I especially recommend the Selenium-PT to people who are
>> transitioning from traditional silver fiber printing to inkjet. While
> you
>> will still need to get used to the matte surface of the papers, you will
>> not
>> have to go through a big hue adjustment.
>> 
>> All in all the Selenium-PiezoTone inks represent a really stunning
>> addition
>> to what is available for inkjet printing. With the reduced price of the
>> Piezo driver and these new inks, I strongly suggest you give them a try.
>> We
>> each have our own likes and preferences but I will be very surprised if
>> this
>> does not become a top contender for the most popular ink set.
>> 
>> Martin Wesley
>> 
>> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
>> 
>> 
>>

Re: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review

2002-07-18 by Robert Morrison

I've been bugging Jon about Eclipse for just under a year when I first saw
what a double printed black looks like on this paper...really, really black
(didn't have densitometer at the time but it was definitely darker (and
still defined) than the Hahnemuhle blacks).  I even sent him a double
printed sample, a coated print...everything I could think of to convince
him...no luck...about 2 months ago he said he would revisit it.  It took a
year of Robert Rex and 6 months of me bugging Jon to get Museo done...so
maybe we will still see a Eclipse profile.

Personally, I'm not sure whether a Piezo profile would fix the poor blacks
you can get with Eclipse. I think you need more ink flow control than the
piezo driver provides...the kind of control that IP has when they make
recipes for ink...to open the flood gates and really get enough ink to the
paper.

Robert


IOn 7/17/02 11:11 PM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Steadman,
> 
> Well I certainly agree and maybe if we keep bugging Jon it will happen.
> Eclipse seems to take the PiezoTone inks better than the original Piezo inks
> so perhaps a profile will not be as difficult.
> 
> Martin
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 10:34 PM
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review
> 
> 
> To Robert and Martin:
> 
> I sure do wish that Jon would profile the Eclipse for the new inks.  I
> really like Eclipse...very nice paper.
> 
> Steadman
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert G. Morrison [mailto:rmorrison@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 6:31 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review
> 
> 
> Double thanks to Martin, I also appreciated your review...it was great to
> hear the comments of a veteran silver printer...which I am not.  I'm glad
> to
> hear that I wasn't the only person that liked the ink set.  I'm really
> looking forward to trying it with Eclipse.  I'm getting a piezotone dmax
> of
> 1.65 with eclipse with IP.  It comes up to about 2 when coated.  The
> uncoated dmax is significantly duller than eam or photorag though.  I
> think
> that the Selenium tones on Eclipse then coated might be the closest thing
> we
> will get to a fiber based silver print...but we will have to see how much
> the coatings change the tonality of the inks. The whole process  is a fair
> bit of work...but not nearly as much work as actually making a silver
> print
> with a difficult image!
> 
> Robert
> 
> 
> On 7/17/02 3:07 PM, "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...> wrote:
> 
>> Hey Martin,
>> 
>> Thanks for taking the time to post such a long and detailed review.  As
>> always, I appreciate your experience and your sharing of your opinions
> and
>> testing results with us.  The Selenium PiezoTones sound pretty "cool"
> (that
>> being a neat, nice, different, pick your own adjective...) (wINK).
>> 
>> Oh...and this is not to slight Robert Morrison, who's testing of the
> inks
>> and papers is also appreciated too.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Steadman
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 1:58 PM
>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review
>> 
>> 
>> Due to a typo and a mistake regarding Dmax in my initial post, I am
>> reposting this information to clear up any misunderstandings (and
> correct
>> my
>> grammar. <G>).
>> 
>> Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review (Cross posted)
>> 
>> I received sample bottles of ConeTech's new selenium hue PiezoTone ink
>> about
>> three weeks ago for Beta testing and have been using them steadily with
> a
>> CIS in an Epson 1280 for the past two weeks.
>> 
>> As far as my own personal tastes go, this is the best grayscale ink set
> I
>> have seen and I prefer it to anything else I have tried. The hue and the
>> chromatic complexity of the prints I have been making over the past few
>> days
>> is indeed right in the range that we commonly associate with selenium
>> toned
>> silver fiber prints. They have slightly cool highlights and a touch of
>> magenta in the midtones and shadows. I have toned silver prints on
> Ilford,
>> Kodak and Oriental hanging on my living room wall and, while the
> Selenium
>> PT
>> prints are not an exact match to any of them, they fit right in. Only
>> their
>> matte surface gives them away as not being air dried silver fiber and
>> mixed
>> with matte surface silver fiber would be undetectable as inkjet.
>> 
>> I would not call the Selenium PT inks "neutral" and probably would not
>> like
>> them so much if they were. The standard selenium toned silver fiber
> print
>> that we tend to think of as neutral is in fact not neutral at all. The
>> nature of the specific emulsion, the color of the paper base and the
>> manner
>> in which the toning was done results in a print that is subtly varies in
>> hue
>> as well as tone. This variation that I call chromatic complexity is what
>> makes silver prints so wonderful and so alive. Even book publishers know
>> that a true monotone does not adequately represent a photograph and
>> quality
>> books are done using 2 to 4 inks of different hue to simulate what is
>> happening in a silver print.
>> 
>> My primary paper is Hahnemuhle Photo Rag and the Selenium PT works
>> beautifully with this paper. I think the tone on EAM may be a bit better
>> though. This is my standard proofing paper but the difference in tone
> may
>> pull me back in that direction although Photo Rag is probably more
>> archival,
>> has a nicer texture and brighter white, there seems to be less warming
> on
>> the EAM and the initial hue is just a bit more pleasing.
>> 
>> I also tried prints on Hahnemühle German Etching and William Turner,
> Crane
>> Museo, Legion Photo Matte and Eclipse Satine. The finished look of the
>> print
>> varies a great deal with the paper you use and this is good news since
> it
>> means you can get a lot of different looks just by switching paper. The
>> very
>> white Legion Photo Matte and Eclipse Satine (Jon can we please, please
>> have
>> a paper profile for Eclipse!?!?) show more blue and greater variation in
>> hue
>> overall. The neutral paper base lets all the complex tones in the inks
>> show
>> through. The Legion Photo Matte is too bright for my taste but the
> Eclipse
>> looks very interesting. It seems to do much better with the Selenium PT
>> than
>> it did with the original Piezo inks. I tried the Orwell profile but it
> was
>> not quite right in the lower tones. On the German Etching and Wil.
> Turner
>> the prints were excellent but the cream-colored paper base cancels out a
>> good deal of the coolness in the highlights giving a more neutral look.
>> Museo is very pleasant with this ink set. Some of the coolness is lost
> but
>> it still a very nice alternative to Photo Rag and EAM.
>> 
>> The Dmax of the Selenium PT is identical to the Warm Neutral. Which is
> to
>> say very high. On EAM I recorded values in the 1.71 range and on Photo
> Rag
>> at 1.80. These were taken from wedges printed using the Piezo driver.
> The
>> Photo Rag density is getting very close to silver print Dmax. So close
>> that
>> the difference does not jump out at you like it does when the inkjet
> print
>> Dmax is down at 1.6. Since it appears that the black of the Selenium PT
> is
>> the same as the Warm-Neutral it should be possible to obtain even higher
>> Dmax values using other drivers. With the Warm-Neutral I was getting
> Dmax
>> values in the 1.88 to 1.90 range and values of 1.94 have been reported.
>> 
>> Regarding fading I have no data and I don't know how it will compare to
>> other ink sets. Jon has said it is undergoing RIT testing and did well
> on
>> in-house Xenon fade testing. I do notice some warming. It takes about 12
>> to
>> 24 hours for the prints to "settle" and achieve Dmax and initial color.
>> This
>> is similar to what I saw with the WN-PT. The change is not very large
> and
>> you can accurately assess your prints out of the printer reasonably well
>> once they are dry. After a few days the Photo Rag prints did show some
>> visible warm shifting but it seems slight and not objectionable. The EAM
>> showed much less warm shifting. This is pretty much in keeping with the
>> other ink sets I have tried.
>> 
>> Metamerism seems very slight and not at all unpleasant. In tungsten and
>> halogen light the prints are warmer as you would expect and the magenta
>> predominates a bit. In fluorescent, daylight and mixed tungsten/daylight
>> the
>> prints are more neutral. Looks great under all light sources that I
> tried.
>> 
>> Like the WN-PiezoTones I experienced no clogging problems or green
> casts.
>> The CIS started right up immediately after vacuum loading and 4 nozzle
>> cleanings, and has passed every nozzle check since.
>> 
>> At this point my favorite inks for use with the Piezo driver are
>> Selenium-PiezoTone, Warm Neutral-PiezoTone, MIS-FS and MIS-FS Neutral in
>> that order. For me and my own tastes, I think the PiezoTones are the
>> better
>> way to go. I especially recommend the Selenium-PT to people who are
>> transitioning from traditional silver fiber printing to inkjet. While
> you
>> will still need to get used to the matte surface of the papers, you will
>> not
>> have to go through a big hue adjustment.
>> 
>> All in all the Selenium-PiezoTone inks represent a really stunning
>> addition
>> to what is available for inkjet printing. With the reduced price of the
>> Piezo driver and these new inks, I strongly suggest you give them a try.
>> We
>> each have our own likes and preferences but I will be very surprised if
>> this
>> does not become a top contender for the most popular ink set.
>> 
>> Martin Wesley
>> 
>> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
>>

RE: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review

2002-07-18 by Steadman Uhlich

Hey Robert,

You are'nt the only one putting up the "profile Eclipse" message. (wink)  I
must have sent dozens of emails and left lots of messages and told 5 or six
folks at IJM, including JC.

Hope it happens some day as Eclipse feels so nice and looks so good.

Glad you are persistent too.

Steadman
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Robert Morrison [mailto:rmorrison@pobox.com]
  Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 10:43 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review


  I've been bugging Jon about Eclipse for just under a year when I first saw
  what a double printed black looks like on this paper...really, really
black
  (didn't have densitometer at the time but it was definitely darker (and
  still defined) than the Hahnemuhle blacks).  I even sent him a double
  printed sample, a coated print...everything I could think of to convince
  him...no luck...about 2 months ago he said he would revisit it.  It took a
  year of Robert Rex and 6 months of me bugging Jon to get Museo done...so
  maybe we will still see a Eclipse profile.

  Personally, I'm not sure whether a Piezo profile would fix the poor blacks
  you can get with Eclipse. I think you need more ink flow control than the
  piezo driver provides...the kind of control that IP has when they make
  recipes for ink...to open the flood gates and really get enough ink to the
  paper.

  Robert


  IOn 7/17/02 11:11 PM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@earthlink.net> wrote:

  > Steadman,
  >
  > Well I certainly agree and maybe if we keep bugging Jon it will happen.
  > Eclipse seems to take the PiezoTone inks better than the original Piezo
inks
  > so perhaps a profile will not be as difficult.
  >
  > Martin
  >
  >
  > ----- Original Message -----
  > From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
  > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
  > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 10:34 PM
  > Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review
  >
  >
  > To Robert and Martin:
  >
  > I sure do wish that Jon would profile the Eclipse for the new inks.  I
  > really like Eclipse...very nice paper.
  >
  > Steadman
  > -----Original Message-----
  > From: Robert G. Morrison [mailto:rmorrison@...]
  > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 6:31 PM
  > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review
  >
  >
  > Double thanks to Martin, I also appreciated your review...it was great
to
  > hear the comments of a veteran silver printer...which I am not.  I'm
glad
  > to
  > hear that I wasn't the only person that liked the ink set.  I'm really
  > looking forward to trying it with Eclipse.  I'm getting a piezotone dmax
  > of
  > 1.65 with eclipse with IP.  It comes up to about 2 when coated.  The
  > uncoated dmax is significantly duller than eam or photorag though.  I
  > think
  > that the Selenium tones on Eclipse then coated might be the closest
thing
  > we
  > will get to a fiber based silver print...but we will have to see how
much
  > the coatings change the tonality of the inks. The whole process  is a
fair
  > bit of work...but not nearly as much work as actually making a silver
  > print
  > with a difficult image!
  >
  > Robert
  >
  >
  > On 7/17/02 3:07 PM, "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
wrote:
  >
  >> Hey Martin,
  >>
  >> Thanks for taking the time to post such a long and detailed review.  As
  >> always, I appreciate your experience and your sharing of your opinions
  > and
  >> testing results with us.  The Selenium PiezoTones sound pretty "cool"
  > (that
  >> being a neat, nice, different, pick your own adjective...) (wINK).
  >>
  >> Oh...and this is not to slight Robert Morrison, who's testing of the
  > inks
  >> and papers is also appreciated too.
  >>
  >> Regards,
  >>
  >> Steadman
  >> -----Original Message-----
  >> From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@earthlink.net]
  >> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 1:58 PM
  >> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  >> Subject: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review
  >>
  >>
  >> Due to a typo and a mistake regarding Dmax in my initial post, I am
  >> reposting this information to clear up any misunderstandings (and
  > correct
  >> my
  >> grammar. <G>).
  >>
  >> Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review (Cross posted)
  >>
  >> I received sample bottles of ConeTech's new selenium hue PiezoTone ink
  >> about
  >> three weeks ago for Beta testing and have been using them steadily with
  > a
  >> CIS in an Epson 1280 for the past two weeks.
  >>
  >> As far as my own personal tastes go, this is the best grayscale ink set
  > I
  >> have seen and I prefer it to anything else I have tried. The hue and
the
  >> chromatic complexity of the prints I have been making over the past few
  >> days
  >> is indeed right in the range that we commonly associate with selenium
  >> toned
  >> silver fiber prints. They have slightly cool highlights and a touch of
  >> magenta in the midtones and shadows. I have toned silver prints on
  > Ilford,
  >> Kodak and Oriental hanging on my living room wall and, while the
  > Selenium
  >> PT
  >> prints are not an exact match to any of them, they fit right in. Only
  >> their
  >> matte surface gives them away as not being air dried silver fiber and
  >> mixed
  >> with matte surface silver fiber would be undetectable as inkjet.
  >>
  >> I would not call the Selenium PT inks "neutral" and probably would not
  >> like
  >> them so much if they were. The standard selenium toned silver fiber
  > print
  >> that we tend to think of as neutral is in fact not neutral at all. The
  >> nature of the specific emulsion, the color of the paper base and the
  >> manner
  >> in which the toning was done results in a print that is subtly varies
in
  >> hue
  >> as well as tone. This variation that I call chromatic complexity is
what
  >> makes silver prints so wonderful and so alive. Even book publishers
know
  >> that a true monotone does not adequately represent a photograph and
  >> quality
  >> books are done using 2 to 4 inks of different hue to simulate what is
  >> happening in a silver print.
  >>
  >> My primary paper is Hahnemuhle Photo Rag and the Selenium PT works
  >> beautifully with this paper. I think the tone on EAM may be a bit
better
  >> though. This is my standard proofing paper but the difference in tone
  > may
  >> pull me back in that direction although Photo Rag is probably more
  >> archival,
  >> has a nicer texture and brighter white, there seems to be less warming
  > on
  >> the EAM and the initial hue is just a bit more pleasing.
  >>
  >> I also tried prints on Hahnemühle German Etching and William Turner,
  > Crane
  >> Museo, Legion Photo Matte and Eclipse Satine. The finished look of the
  >> print
  >> varies a great deal with the paper you use and this is good news since
  > it
  >> means you can get a lot of different looks just by switching paper. The
  >> very
  >> white Legion Photo Matte and Eclipse Satine (Jon can we please, please
  >> have
  >> a paper profile for Eclipse!?!?) show more blue and greater variation
in
  >> hue
  >> overall. The neutral paper base lets all the complex tones in the inks
  >> show
  >> through. The Legion Photo Matte is too bright for my taste but the
  > Eclipse
  >> looks very interesting. It seems to do much better with the Selenium PT
  >> than
  >> it did with the original Piezo inks. I tried the Orwell profile but it
  > was
  >> not quite right in the lower tones. On the German Etching and Wil.
  > Turner
  >> the prints were excellent but the cream-colored paper base cancels out
a
  >> good deal of the coolness in the highlights giving a more neutral look.
  >> Museo is very pleasant with this ink set. Some of the coolness is lost
  > but
  >> it still a very nice alternative to Photo Rag and EAM.
  >>
  >> The Dmax of the Selenium PT is identical to the Warm Neutral. Which is
  > to
  >> say very high. On EAM I recorded values in the 1.71 range and on Photo
  > Rag
  >> at 1.80. These were taken from wedges printed using the Piezo driver.
  > The
  >> Photo Rag density is getting very close to silver print Dmax. So close
  >> that
  >> the difference does not jump out at you like it does when the inkjet
  > print
  >> Dmax is down at 1.6. Since it appears that the black of the Selenium PT
  > is
  >> the same as the Warm-Neutral it should be possible to obtain even
higher
  >> Dmax values using other drivers. With the Warm-Neutral I was getting
  > Dmax
  >> values in the 1.88 to 1.90 range and values of 1.94 have been reported.
  >>
  >> Regarding fading I have no data and I don't know how it will compare to
  >> other ink sets. Jon has said it is undergoing RIT testing and did well
  > on
  >> in-house Xenon fade testing. I do notice some warming. It takes about
12
  >> to
  >> 24 hours for the prints to "settle" and achieve Dmax and initial color.
  >> This
  >> is similar to what I saw with the WN-PT. The change is not very large
  > and
  >> you can accurately assess your prints out of the printer reasonably
well
  >> once they are dry. After a few days the Photo Rag prints did show some
  >> visible warm shifting but it seems slight and not objectionable. The
EAM
  >> showed much less warm shifting. This is pretty much in keeping with the
  >> other ink sets I have tried.
  >>
  >> Metamerism seems very slight and not at all unpleasant. In tungsten and
  >> halogen light the prints are warmer as you would expect and the magenta
  >> predominates a bit. In fluorescent, daylight and mixed
tungsten/daylight
  >> the
  >> prints are more neutral. Looks great under all light sources that I
  > tried.
  >>
  >> Like the WN-PiezoTones I experienced no clogging problems or green
  > casts.
  >> The CIS started right up immediately after vacuum loading and 4 nozzle
  >> cleanings, and has passed every nozzle check since.
  >>
  >> At this point my favorite inks for use with the Piezo driver are
  >> Selenium-PiezoTone, Warm Neutral-PiezoTone, MIS-FS and MIS-FS Neutral
in
  >> that order. For me and my own tastes, I think the PiezoTones are the
  >> better
  >> way to go. I especially recommend the Selenium-PT to people who are
  >> transitioning from traditional silver fiber printing to inkjet. While
  > you
  >> will still need to get used to the matte surface of the papers, you
will
  >> not
  >> have to go through a big hue adjustment.
  >>
  >> All in all the Selenium-PiezoTone inks represent a really stunning
  >> addition
  >> to what is available for inkjet printing. With the reduced price of the
  >> Piezo driver and these new inks, I strongly suggest you give them a
try.
  >> We
  >> each have our own likes and preferences but I will be very surprised if
  >> this
  >> does not become a top contender for the most popular ink set.
  >>
  >> Martin Wesley
  >>
  >> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
  >>


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review

2002-07-18 by Jeff Magidson

Steadman Uhlich wrote:
> 
> Hey Robert,
> 
> You are'nt the only one putting up the "profile Eclipse" message. (wink)  I
> must have sent dozens of emails and left lots of messages and told 5 or six
> folks at IJM, including JC.
> 
> Hope it happens some day as Eclipse feels so nice and looks so good.
> 
> Glad you are persistent too.
> 
> Steadman


Since it is now known that IJM does not write the Piezography SW,
perhaps they do not make the profiles in house either ??

-Jeff

RE: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review

2002-07-18 by Steadman Uhlich

Heck,

I don't care if they write the code...I just like getting the free profiles
with my Piezo software...they are priceless....

Steadman
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Jeff Magidson [mailto:jeffm@...]
  Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:14 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review




  Steadman Uhlich wrote:
  >
  > Hey Robert,
  >
  > You are'nt the only one putting up the "profile Eclipse" message. (wink)
I
  > must have sent dozens of emails and left lots of messages and told 5 or
six
  > folks at IJM, including JC.
  >
  > Hope it happens some day as Eclipse feels so nice and looks so good.
  >
  > Glad you are persistent too.
  >
  > Steadman


  Since it is now known that IJM does not write the Piezography SW,
  perhaps they do not make the profiles in house either ??

  -Jeff

        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              ADVERTISEMENT



  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review

2002-07-18 by Julian Thomas

agreed.
J
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 8:17 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review


> Heck,
>
> I don't care if they write the code...I just like getting the free
profiles
> with my Piezo software...they are priceless....
>
> Steadman
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: Jeff Magidson [mailto:jeffm@...]
>   Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:14 PM
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review
>
>
>
>
>   Steadman Uhlich wrote:
>   >
>   > Hey Robert,
>   >
>   > You are'nt the only one putting up the "profile Eclipse" message.
(wink)
> I
>   > must have sent dozens of emails and left lots of messages and told 5
or
> six
>   > folks at IJM, including JC.
>   >
>   > Hope it happens some day as Eclipse feels so nice and looks so good.
>   >
>   > Glad you are persistent too.
>   >
>   > Steadman
>
>
>   Since it is now known that IJM does not write the Piezography SW,
>   perhaps they do not make the profiles in house either ??
>
>   -Jeff
>
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>               ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - Include your full name with your message.
>   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
> them short.
>   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
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Re: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review

2002-07-18 by Jeff Magidson

Julian Thomas wrote:
> 
> agreed.
> J
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 8:17 PM
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review
> 
> > Heck,
> >
> > I don't care if they write the code...I just like getting the free
> profiles
> > with my Piezo software...they are priceless....
> >
> > Steadman


My point was... that if they don't do the profiles inhouse but have it
done outside and have to pay for them, this may be the reason why they
are slow to respond to your requests.

-Jeff

Re: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review

2002-07-18 by Martin Wesley

Jeff,

Your point is well taken. There is a big difference in walking down the hall
to your in-house programmers and assigning them the task of creating a new
profile, compared to doing an economic analysis to determine what the
payback will be if you spend $$$ to have your outside programmer create it.

What might make sense in a situation like this would be for ConeTech and
Brightcube to share the cost of a new profile or for Brightcube to pay the
cost. It would certainly be more to Brightcube's financial benefit to have
the profile in the Piezo driver than it would be to ConeTech's.

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Magidson" <jeffm@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 12:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review


>
>
> Julian Thomas wrote:
> >
> > agreed.
> > J
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 8:17 PM
> > Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review
> >
> > > Heck,
> > >
> > > I don't care if they write the code...I just like getting the free
> > profiles
> > > with my Piezo software...they are priceless....
> > >
> > > Steadman
>
>
> My point was... that if they don't do the profiles inhouse but have it
> done outside and have to pay for them, this may be the reason why they
> are slow to respond to your requests.
>
> -Jeff
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
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>
>
>

Re: Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review

2002-07-18 by gschern

> What might make sense in a situation like this would be for 
ConeTech and
> Brightcube to share the cost of a new profile or for Brightcube to 
pay the
> cost. It would certainly be more to Brightcube's financial benefit 
to have
> the profile in the Piezo driver than it would be to ConeTech's.

FYI: I have emailed Jon several times offering to help provide any 
paper necessary and help with the cost of creating the profiles, but 
have gotten no response whatsoever. I don't know what the problem is. 
I can't even get Jon to respond or even return the emails...??

Gregory Schern
Inkjet Goodies - Photographic and Fine Art Inkjet Supplies
www.photoinkjet.com
www.inkjetgoodies.com
Order Toll Free 866 330-4514
info@...

Re: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review

2002-07-18 by pbard2002

My understanding is that Bill Bergh does the profiling...

Phil
http://philbard.com
http://laphotoworkshops.com



> My point was... that if they don't do the profiles inhouse but have it
> done outside and have to pay for them, this may be the reason why 
they
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> are slow to respond to your requests.
> 
> -Jeff

RE: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review

2002-07-18 by Steadman Uhlich

They have the ability to do the color profiles in house.  They do that all
the time.

The Greyscale profiles (such as what I want for Eclipse) are done by a third
party (at least that is what I was told 6 months or more ago) so they have
to pay someone else for those.   Also, the Eclipse evidently has a peculiar
coating which did not work well with the original PiezoBW...so there was no
economic reason to make a profile for it.

The situation has changed with the new PiezoTone inks...new formula...so I
cross my fingers.

Steadman
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Jeff Magidson [mailto:jeffm@...]
  Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 2:46 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review




  Julian Thomas wrote:
  >
  > agreed.
  > J
  > ----- Original Message -----
  > From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
  > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
  > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 8:17 PM
  > Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review
  >
  > > Heck,
  > >
  > > I don't care if they write the code...I just like getting the free
  > profiles
  > > with my Piezo software...they are priceless....
  > >
  > > Steadman


  My point was... that if they don't do the profiles inhouse but have it
  done outside and have to pay for them, this may be the reason why they
  are slow to respond to your requests.

  -Jeff

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review

2002-07-18 by Steadman Uhlich

Martin,

I strongly suggest this shared cost idea some months ago...to both IJM and
Brightcube...nothing happened.  Again I think there was some kind of
elemental coating difference at play...so I was told.

Steadman
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
  Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 3:17 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review


  Jeff,

  Your point is well taken. There is a big difference in walking down the
hall
  to your in-house programmers and assigning them the task of creating a new
  profile, compared to doing an economic analysis to determine what the
  payback will be if you spend $$$ to have your outside programmer create
it.

  What might make sense in a situation like this would be for ConeTech and
  Brightcube to share the cost of a new profile or for Brightcube to pay the
  cost. It would certainly be more to Brightcube's financial benefit to have
  the profile in the Piezo driver than it would be to ConeTech's.

  Martin Wesley

  http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Jeff Magidson" <jeffm@...>
  To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
  Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 12:45 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review


  >
  >
  > Julian Thomas wrote:
  > >
  > > agreed.
  > > J
  > > ----- Original Message -----
  > > From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
  > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
  > > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 8:17 PM
  > > Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review
  > >
  > > > Heck,
  > > >
  > > > I don't care if they write the code...I just like getting the free
  > > profiles
  > > > with my Piezo software...they are priceless....
  > > >
  > > > Steadman
  >
  >
  > My point was... that if they don't do the profiles inhouse but have it
  > done outside and have to pay for them, this may be the reason why they
  > are slow to respond to your requests.
  >
  > -Jeff
  >
  >
  > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
  other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
  >
  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
  >
  > Please follow these basic guidelines:
  > - Include your full name with your message.
  > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
  them short.
  > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
  > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
  "flames."
  > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
  resources on the homepage.
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
  >
  >
  >



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review

2002-07-18 by Mahesi Caplan-Faust

I could use 1-2g of the yellow position original Piezo inks to help me use
up the remainder of my CIS set.

I would be willing to pay for it if anybody has some ink spare with all this
switching to new ink sets.

I am in the UK

Adam

---
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yellow position- spare ink?

2002-07-18 by Mahesi Caplan-Faust

I could use 1-2g of the yellow position original Piezo inks to help me use
up the remainder of my CIS set.

I would be willing to pay for it if anybody has some ink spare with all this
switching to new ink sets.

I am in the UK

Adam

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.368 / Virus Database: 204 - Release Date: 29/05/02


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review

2002-07-19 by Jerry Olson

Martin, couldn't CD tobie make a profile with a black and white inkset
on Brightcube's eclipse paper?

Jerry

After all, If jon cone can get it done, it can't be all that difficult,
can it?

Re: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review

2002-07-19 by Martin Wesley

Jerry,

I don't know. I would think you would have to have some access to the way
the Piezo driver works but maybe not. I suppose you could use one of Piezo's
internal paper profiles and then create an external curve adjustment to give
you what you want. Beyond my level of expertise.

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 7:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review


> Martin, couldn't CD tobie make a profile with a black and white inkset
> on Brightcube's eclipse paper?
>
> Jerry
>
> After all, If jon cone can get it done, it can't be all that difficult,
> can it?
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>
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Re: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review

2002-07-19 by Robert Morrison

The problem is the ink flow.  Eclipse was made for use with 12 color
printers and has a really thick receiving layer...it needs more ink that the
epson driver will put out.  That's why a RIP is the likely solution.  You
can get better results with the epson driver than with any of the existing
piezo profiles...but to get the best performance the inks need to really
flood in. I'm looking into modifying the coating on Eclipse for BW
printing...but no details yet.

Robert

On 7/18/02 7:45 PM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:

> Martin, couldn't CD tobie make a profile with a black and white inkset
> on Brightcube's eclipse paper?
> 
> Jerry
> 
> After all, If jon cone can get it done, it can't be all that difficult,
> can it?
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Re: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review

2002-07-19 by Bruce Kinch

>
>
>Since it is now known that IJM does not write the Piezography SW,
>perhaps they do not make the profiles in house either ??
>
>-Jeff
>
They certainly do at least the color profiles in house-I've seen the set-up.

Bruce
--

Re: [Digital BW] Revised Selenium PiezoTones Review

2002-07-19 by tony_caltabiano

I was told very recently from Cone's tech support that the black and
white profiles for their papers are proprietary and are made by the
software company who wrote the piezo rip.  IJM cannot make bw profiles
themselves.  Color is a different story of course.

Tony



> >Since it is now known that IJM does not write the Piezography SW,
> >perhaps they do not make the profiles in house either ??
> >
> >-Jeff
> >
> They certainly do at least the color profiles in house-I've seen the
set-up.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Bruce
> --

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