Digital BW, The Print

Helene writes:

> I have a new Lacie Electron Blue3 19-inch waiting
> for a new computer.  Is there an "optimum" resolution
> at which to run it?

There are several factors to consider.

The first is your vision.  If you have ideal vision, you can see details
about 1 minute of arc in size.  That's about 1/3500 of the viewing distance,
so if your monitor is two feet away from your eyes, the smallest detail you
can see on the screen is about 2' / 3500 = 0.17 mm in size.  So, you'll need
pixels about 0.2 mm in size to get the optimal resolution for your vision
and viewing distance.

The second factor is the dot or bar pitch on the monitor.  It should be no
greater than the size of the pixels you want to be able to see.  So if the
pixel size is 0.2 mm as above, you'll need a screen with a dot pitch no
larger than 0.2 mm--if the dot pitch on your monitor is larger, you can move
it a bit further away, or you can use larger pixels.

The third factor is the capacity of your video card.  Obviously, you need to
restrict your choice of resolutions to those made available by the card at
the color depth you want (at least 24-bit or 32-bit, for photographic work).

So ... the Electron19blue III has a dot pitch of about 0.26 mm.  The
viewable area has a 18" diagonal (14.4" x 10.8".  This means that the
maximum number of pixels it can display without exceeding the dot pitch is
1407x1055.  So you should set your resolution to 1407x1055, or whatever
comes closest to that without exceeding it.  And your maximum viewing
distance at that resolution would be 35" from the screen, but you can
probably cut this in half to 24" or so for greater comfort.

You should elevate the monitor so that the center of the display is just
slightly below your eye level when you are looking straight ahead in your
chair.  It's best to keep lighting around the monitor relatively dim, but
total darkness may cause more eyestrain, so keep a few lights on (it's more
practical to work that way, anyway).

In that price range you could buy TWO good flat-screen 19" glass
monitors or two 17" flat panel displays. 17" flat panels offer 1280 x
1024 pixels, which is the same resolution you'd probably use on a 19"
CRT. Based on actual experience, I much prefer two displays this size
over one larger one. 

If I were buying new monitors today, I'd probably choose 17" flat
panels, but I don't know which ones. If you go with glass, I like the
Samsung SyncMaster 900NF (I have three), about $350. These have all the
controls you want for critical color (or b&w) work, including
independent gain controls for all three color channels, important for
accurate calibration.

The ColorVision Spyder is a good (and cost effective) choice for
calibration and profiling, which is a must.

Richard Wolfson
Harvard MA USA

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe [mailto:drjoe2@...] 
> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 11:42 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] New Monitor
> 
> 
> I am planning on getting a new monitor.  I currently own a NEC CRT 
> display.  For around 700 dollars plus or minus a 100 or so, any 
> suggestions as to the direction to go?  Flat Panel or convential 
> CRT?  I do both color and black and white.  Thanks
> 
> Joe
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
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> 
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Thanks for the comments Richard.  I asked the question because it 
seems as if there is still some hesitation on some fronts about the 
flat panel displays and their ability to be up to par with CRT 
displays for color accuracy.  Is that correct?

Joe




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Richard 
Wolfson" <rw@r...> wrote:
> In that price range you could buy TWO good flat-screen 19" glass
> monitors or two 17" flat panel displays. 17" flat panels offer 
1280 x
> 1024 pixels, which is the same resolution you'd probably use on a 
19"
> CRT. Based on actual experience, I much prefer two displays this 
size
> over one larger one. 
> 
> If I were buying new monitors today, I'd probably choose 17" flat
> panels, but I don't know which ones. If you go with glass, I like 
the
> Samsung SyncMaster 900NF (I have three), about $350. These have 
all the
> controls you want for critical color (or b&w) work, including
> independent gain controls for all three color channels, important 
for
> accurate calibration.
> 
> The ColorVision Spyder is a good (and cost effective) choice for
> calibration and profiling, which is a must.
> 
> Richard Wolfson
> Harvard MA USA
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Joe [mailto:drjoe2@c...] 
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 11:42 AM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Digital BW] New Monitor
> > 
> > 
> > I am planning on getting a new monitor.  I currently own a NEC 
CRT 
> > display.  For around 700 dollars plus or minus a 100 or so, any 
> > suggestions as to the direction to go?  Flat Panel or convential 
> > CRT?  I do both color and black and white.  Thanks
> > 
> > Joe
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> > resources as they are often being updated.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or 
> > you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership 
> > preferences by visiting this same page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
> > messages to keep them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
> > or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be 
> > removed from the membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
> > digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic 
> > posts may be removed from the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group 
> > rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and 
> > decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group 
> > Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section: 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/fil
> es/
> 
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PRINT
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> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS 
OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
THE
> "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE 
BEEN
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THE USE
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> PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE 
DIGITAL BW,

> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
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> Yahoo! Groups Links

I think the good ones are ready for serious imaging work, and the Spyder
works fine with them. I know Dave Tobie uses Apple flat panel displays.

I've used flat panel displays in an office setting and find them a
delight to work with, but don't have any in my studio yet.

Richard Wolfson
(978) 456-3033 studio
(978) 844-0199 cell

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe [mailto:drjoe2@...] 
> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 3:38 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] New Monitor
> 
> 
> Thanks for the comments Richard.  I asked the question because it 
> seems as if there is still some hesitation on some fronts about the 
> flat panel displays and their ability to be up to par with CRT 
> displays for color accuracy.  Is that correct?
> 
> Joe

I use an Apple LCD panel (calibrated) at home and do some retouching on 
files there. Then I bring them to work and look at them on my Lacie 22 
CRT (calibrated) and it is amazing what you can not see on a LCD. Very 
small details get lost on the LCD. I also get files from customers all 
the time and it never fails that I can tell who is working on a LCD 
compared to a CRT by how much retouch work "shows" on the my CRT. The 
LCDs look very nice but I don't think they are portraying the real 
world yet. I assume that is why Sony and Barco use CRT technology for 
high end accurate monitors.
JMO,
Mark


On Feb 25, 2004, at 3:52 PM, Richard Wolfson wrote:

> I think the good ones are ready for serious imaging work, and the 
> Spyder
>  works fine with them. I know Dave Tobie uses Apple flat panel 
> displays.
>
>  I've used flat panel displays in an office setting and find them a
>  delight to work with, but don't have any in my studio yet.
>
>  Richard Wolfson
>  (978) 456-3033 studio
>  (978) 844-0199 cell
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

One thing still seems to be true, though.  The price/performance for both CRT and LCD is getting better every day.  However, when comparing the price/performance of CRT to LCD, the CRT comes out way ahead.  One can buy a very nice 19" CRT for not too much money these days.  About $500 dollars will get you a nice 19" CRT AND calibrations tools.  (I am looking forward to the LCD being a match for the CRT's.  LCD's are really nice to use in many applications.)
 
Tom Baker

Mark Savoia <mark@...> wrote:
I use an Apple LCD panel (calibrated) at home and do some retouching on 
files there. Then I bring them to work and look at them on my Lacie 22 
CRT (calibrated) and it is amazing what you can not see on a LCD. Very 
small details get lost on the LCD. I also get files from customers all 
the time and it never fails that I can tell who is working on a LCD 
compared to a CRT by how much retouch work "shows" on the my CRT. The 
LCDs look very nice but I don't think they are portraying the real 
world yet. I assume that is why Sony and Barco use CRT technology for 
high end accurate monitors.
JMO,
Mark


On Feb 25, 2004, at 3:52 PM, Richard Wolfson wrote:

> I think the good ones are ready for serious imaging work, and the 
> Spyder
>  works fine with them. I know Dave Tobie uses Apple flat panel 
> displays.
>
>  I've used flat panel displays in an office setting and find them a
>  delight to work with, but don't have any in my studio yet.
>
>  Richard Wolfson
>  (978) 456-3033 studio
>  (978) 844-0199 cell
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mark those are exactly the types of comments I have been hearing.  

Joe



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia 
<mark@c...> wrote:
> I use an Apple LCD panel (calibrated) at home and do some 
retouching on 
> files there. Then I bring them to work and look at them on my 
Lacie 22 
> CRT (calibrated) and it is amazing what you can not see on a LCD. 
Very 
> small details get lost on the LCD. I also get files from customers 
all 
> the time and it never fails that I can tell who is working on a 
LCD 
> compared to a CRT by how much retouch work "shows" on the my CRT. 
The 
> LCDs look very nice but I don't think they are portraying the real 
> world yet. I assume that is why Sony and Barco use CRT technology 
for 
> high end accurate monitors.
> JMO,
> Mark
> 
> 
> On Feb 25, 2004, at 3:52 PM, Richard Wolfson wrote:
> 
> > I think the good ones are ready for serious imaging work, and 
the 
> > Spyder
> >  works fine with them. I know Dave Tobie uses Apple flat panel 
> > displays.
> >
> >  I've used flat panel displays in an office setting and find 
them a

> >  delight to work with, but don't have any in my studio yet.
> >
> >  Richard Wolfson
> >  (978) 456-3033 studio
> >  (978) 844-0199 cell
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joe,

You need an Artisan for serious color matching, and a big LCD for everything
else. I do most of my work on a Formac Gallery 21" LCD - superb image, so
sharp and bright, but it can't be profiled accurately enough to do the
critical color bits, for which I stick the image on the other computer with
the Artisan, which is absolutely spot on for color, but so fuzzy and dark
compared with the Formac. A pricey solution!

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joe" <drjoe2@...>


Thanks for the comments Richard.  I asked the question because it
seems as if there is still some hesitation on some fronts about the
flat panel displays and their ability to be up to par with CRT
displays for color accuracy.  Is that correct?

Bob thank you very much.  But it is a pricey solution and one that 
is currently out of my range. But thank you anyway for responding.

Joe



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Frost" 
<bob@f...> wrote:
> Joe,
> 
> You need an Artisan for serious color matching, and a big LCD for 
everything
> else. I do most of my work on a Formac Gallery 21" LCD - superb 
image, so
> sharp and bright, but it can't be profiled accurately enough to do 
the
> critical color bits, for which I stick the image on the other 
computer with
> the Artisan, which is absolutely spot on for color, but so fuzzy 
and dark

> compared with the Formac. A pricey solution!
> 
> Bob Frost.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Joe" <drjoe2@c...>
> 
> 
> Thanks for the comments Richard.  I asked the question because it
> seems as if there is still some hesitation on some fronts about the
> flat panel displays and their ability to be up to par with CRT
> displays for color accuracy.  Is that correct?