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[Digital BW] Re: Fade test: Museo v. EAM

[Digital BW] Re: Fade test: Museo v. EAM

2001-08-31 by Paul Roark

Cathy Van Berg wrote:

>... it has been well established in the Piezo3000 group that Epson
>Archival Matte is not Archival at all.  There was much discussion
>...it is important to me that all my work be as acid free as possible...

There has been more discussion than evidence, I fear.  Also, the "green"
problem of Piezo on EAM is, in my view, not a problem of the paper.

I would also feel better if EAM clearly indicated a basic (acid free) pH
with my acid test pen.  However, there appears to be a lot more to the
science than what these marking pens will show.  When newsprint tests out as
better than my archivally-processed silver prints, and I see no correlation
between acidity and light-fastness, it makes me wonder if these cheap pens
have any value at all.

At any rate, I continue to think that color shifting and fading are more of
a problem than what happens several hundred years from now.  So far, among
the papers I've tested, EAM seems to be the best in terms of light fastness,
at least for relatively pure pigment inksets like the MIS archival inks.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

[Digital BW] Re: EAM Archivability WAS Fade test: Museo v. EAM

2001-08-31 by Cathy Van Berg

I hate to beat this dead horse any more, but I went back and re-read 
all the posts about EAM Archival Qualities.  I wanted to be sure I had 
gotten clear info from the discussion.  There are many views to 
consider, I know.  I also know people believe what they want to 
believe, but (IMHO) I have enough doubt about this paper not to get 
near it for selling archivally sound prints. (Cheap enough for 
proofing though...do you really get what you pay for?)

Believe what you want, Do what you will...
Cathy


I pulled out just one post from the Piezo3000 archives:

"If that is what it is supposed to be, they [Epson] have a major 
problem in quality control and/or product stability after it leaves 
the factory.

I tested EAM with both the Light Impressions and Lineco paper pH 
testing pens.

Both indicated that there was a neutral or basic coating on the 
front. The pens dissolve this coating but if applied lightly they 
turned blue (LM pen) or lavender (Lineco pen).

The back also appears to be coated and this tests acid with both 
pens. The coating might be to improve mechanical handling in 
converting.

Tearing the paper I checked the core and it tests acid with both pens.

Steadman reported similar results on different batches.

Now I am willing to believe that it might have been manufactured as 
an acid free and lignin free paper with no added pH buffers. These 
would test slightly acid, pH = 6.0, after exposure to the atmosphere 
and certainly with the application of an acid coating.

However, there is obviously no alkaline reserve in the paper. It does 
not meet ASTM or ISO standards for permanent document paper and would 
not qualify for purchase by any U.S. Federal government agency, many 
individual states nor some European governments. Is it going to self 
destruct real fast? Probably not. Is it going to last as long as a 
buffered paper? No way."






--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Cathy Van Berg wrote:
> 
> >... it has been well established in the Piezo3000 group that Epson
> >Archival Matte is not Archival at all.  There was much discussion
> >...it is important to me that all my work be as acid free as 
possible...
> 
> There has been more discussion than evidence, I fear.  Also, the 
"green"
> problem of Piezo on EAM is, in my view, not a problem of the paper.
> 
> I would also feel better if EAM clearly indicated a basic (acid 
free) pH
> with my acid test pen.  However, there appears to be a lot more to 
the
> science than what these marking pens will show.  When newsprint 
tests out as
> better than my archivally-processed silver prints, and I see no 
correlation
> between acidity and light-fastness, it makes me wonder if these 
cheap pens
> have any value at all.
> 
> At any rate, I continue to think that color shifting and fading are 
more of
> a problem than what happens several hundred years from now.  So far, 
among
> the papers I've tested, EAM seems to be the best in terms of light 
fastness,
> at least for relatively pure pigment inksets like the MIS archival 
inks.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Fade test: Museo v. EAM

2001-08-31 by Jerry Olson

and so lies the oddness of it all. Epson Archival Matte has fared probably the best of all papers as far as shifting/fading colors goes. No
paper has done better in any of my tests.

Jerry



vanbergc@... wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I know it has been well established in the Piezo3000 group that Epson
> Archival Matte is not Archival at all.  There was much discussion
> about it...I'm sure it's all in the archives.  I myself wouldn't use
> it for just that reason...it is important to me that all my work be as
> acid free as possible...
>
> Thanks,
> Cathy Van Berg
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > I ran a fade test in my florescent light fader comparing Museo with
> Epson
> > Archival Matte.
> >
> > The short summary is that Museo color shifts 10% less than Archival
> Matte,
> > but fades 30% more.  While EAM does a rather quick 2 unit (on the
> 256 scale)
> > yellowing (which stabilizes there), Museo kept it's perfect white up
> to the
> > 200 hour point that I ended the test.
> >
> > Because the color shifting is more noticeable than the fading, the
> Museo has
> > a slight visual advantage from those two factors.  Of course, it's
> 4% weaker
> > blacks are a disadvantage in shots where that is an issue.
> >
> > Paul
> > http://www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Fade test: Museo v. EAM

2001-08-31 by Jerry Olson

The ONLY thing that truly lasts for hundreds of years are oil paintings, watercolors, guaches, and temperas painted with non fugitive
pigments (Mostly earth colors) and charcoal, chalk, or silverpoint/pencil drawings. And how would we even know if our works didn't fade? We
sure won't be around to see it.  How do we know that the old watercolors and oil paintings haven't faded from when they were painted? You
can clean an old oil painting, and it may look like it was painted yesterday, but how do we know it hasn't shifted colors?  We Don't!

Jerry




Paul Roark wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Cathy Van Berg wrote:
>
> >... it has been well established in the Piezo3000 group that Epson
> >Archival Matte is not Archival at all.  There was much discussion
> >...it is important to me that all my work be as acid free as possible...
>
> There has been more discussion than evidence, I fear.  Also, the "green"
> problem of Piezo on EAM is, in my view, not a problem of the paper.
>
> I would also feel better if EAM clearly indicated a basic (acid free) pH
> with my acid test pen.  However, there appears to be a lot more to the
> science than what these marking pens will show.  When newsprint tests out as
> better than my archivally-processed silver prints, and I see no correlation
> between acidity and light-fastness, it makes me wonder if these cheap pens
> have any value at all.
>
> At any rate, I continue to think that color shifting and fading are more of
> a problem than what happens several hundred years from now.  So far, among
> the papers I've tested, EAM seems to be the best in terms of light fastness,
> at least for relatively pure pigment inksets like the MIS archival inks.
>
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[Digital BW] Re: EAM Archivability WAS Fade test: Museo v. EAM

2001-08-31 by Paul Roark

Cathy,

I think these are important issues that would benefit all of us if we could
get more expert advice on it.  Unfortunately, getting that expert advice is
hard to do.  So, I really don't think we're beating a dead horse here.  The
advantages of EAM are such that most of the people in the Piezo exchange
group that I was a member of used it.

It may be that different papers are best for different purposes.  I am
considering Museo for prints that are copies of old photos and are likely to
be mostly in dark storage. (I've done some work for the local museum, among
others, in coping old photos for preservation purposes.  So it's a serious
issue for me.)  However, I don't see an easy or certain answer, and for
display purposes, I have yet to find a better paper than EAM.

You wrote:

>... I have enough doubt about EAM paper not to get
>near it for selling archivally sound prints.

Here, I think we may need to distinguish between light fastness and very
long term dark storage.  Some use the term "archival" as referring just to
dark storage.  In the popular usage of the term, however, most think of it
as light fastness or longevity in display conditions.

Also, if an inkset has significant dye content (and Piezo appears to) the
appropriate paper may be different than for a more pure pigment inkset
(which I think MIS is).  EAM is clearly intended for pigments, not dyes.

>...tested EAM with both the Light Impressions and Lineco paper pH
>testing pens.
>Both indicated that there was a neutral or basic coating on the
>front. ...
>Tearing the paper I checked the core and it tests acid with both pens.

These are the same results I get and appear to be agreed upon.

>...it might have been manufactured as
>an acid free and lignin free paper with no added pH buffers. These
>would test slightly acid, pH = 6.0, after exposure to the atmosphere
>...
>However, there is obviously no alkaline reserve in the paper. It does
>not meet ASTM or ISO standards for permanent document paper and would
>not qualify for purchase by any U.S. Federal government agency, ...

Again, there doesn't seem to be much disagreement here.  Does the best
fiber-based enlarging paper meet these standards?  Maybe the standards for
"document paper" are simply inapplicable to other types of paper, where
buffering may have been found to be detrimental to its intended uses.

Lignin is apparently the source/reserve of acid in cheap wood-fiber paper
that most are concerned with.  As it breaks down, it makes an acid that
attacks the cellulose fibers, as I understand the issue.  Thus, a cheap,
lignin-containing paper that has some buffering in it might test "acid free"
with a pen when new, but as it gets old the lignin could pour out acid that
might overwhelm the buffering.  So, being "lignin free" appears to be
important.

> Is it going to last as long as a buffered paper? No way.

This is where the question is.  What I am saying is that the little test
pens we use are no up to the job of answering the question of long term
storage.

The member of the preservationist organization that I spoke with had no
knowledge of inkjet papers.  They were concerned with the bond papers that
most organizations use routinely.  The ISO standards are also aimed at these
types of paper that are used for documents, not inkjet paper.  For the
regular bond paper, buffering is the accepted method of trying to get them
to last longer.  It's just the cheapest way to deal with the acid.

However, it's no guarantee either.  Newsprint is even buffered and doesn't
last long at all.  And fiber-based enlarging paper is very long lasting and
does not test out as clearly acid free.  (I suspect that the processing of
the paper would make buffering useless.  It might be a good show to see what
would happen when a buffered paper hit the acid stop bath.)

It seems that Epson has found that buffering (which is very cheap) is
detrimental to the inkjet print.  It may actually be one of the reasons EAM
is so good when it comes to light fastness.  And, fading continues to be the
primary problem with prints that are intended for display.  (I think color
shifting is probably not a separate phenomena.  When I look at the results
of both, they seem to follow similar patterns.)

Also, the expert preservationist I spoke to said that some old acidic papers
have lasted.  It appears that there are sizings that can be put in the paper
that stop the destructive action of the acid on the cellulose fibers.

Unfortunately, Epson, probably to avoid sharing its R&D results with
competitors, is not giving us very satisfying answers.

At any rate, this issue is not going away.  My point is simply that the acid
pens don't answer the questions.  There appears to be a lot more to the
issue than whether a paper is slightly acidic or buffered.

To restate my current view, it may be that we should use different papers
for different intended uses.  For light fastness (display life) EAM may be
the best, for very long term dark storage, a very high quality, "acid free"
paper might be better.

Sadly, however, merely being "acid free" as indicated by the test pens
doesn't give us enough information on this second issue.  Newsprint tests
out as "acid free" (alkaline) and is the worst.  Cheap buffering can fool
the pens and not do the job.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

[Digital BW] Re: EAM Archivability WAS Fade test: Museo v. EAM

2001-08-31 by Martin Wesley

Cathy,

That post sounds rather familiar for some reason <<g>>.

My take on the EAM is that it is demonstrating good image permanence 
properties and at the same time gives indications that it is not 
optimized for maximum paper life.

Paper permanence and image permanence are really two different 
issues. It won't be very satisfying if the paper survives but the 
image has faded out. Likewise having the paper dissolve under an 
image is not acceptable. We need both and we just don't have any good 
solid information or conclusive proof.

The third leg of the issue is image quality and I personally think 
EAM is great. Nice tonality, good blacks, bright white, smooth 
surface and a sharp image. These needed to be weighed on the scale 
with the permanence issues. Do you choose to make an image that has 
slightly lower image quality to gain longer life? That's a tough 
question.

I am inclined to not worry about what has already been printed on 
EAM. I think it will last just fine for a very long time or those 
window tests of Jerry's would be showing catastrophic failure. 
(Jerry, the next time you do this hang up a piece of the daily 
newspaper, a magazine page and a page out of a paper back book to 
give us some perspective.)

I am also inclined not to use it anymore. I am trying to find a paper 
that has EAM's image stability and print qualities but also has the 
properties of an archival paper. While I am finding some likely 
candidates, Legion Photo Matte, Eclipse Satine, the soon to arrive 
Hahnemule Watercolor Rag Smooth (HWRS) none of them precisely matches 
EAM's print quality.

So we are each going to have to make our own decisions weighing image 
permanence, paper permanence and image quality.

Martin Wesley



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Cathy Van Berg" 
<vanbergc@y...> wrote:
> I hate to beat this dead horse any more, but I went back and re-
read 
> all the posts about EAM Archival Qualities.  I wanted to be sure I 
had 
> gotten clear info from the discussion.  There are many views to 
> consider, I know.  I also know people believe what they want to 
> believe, but (IMHO) I have enough doubt about this paper not to get 
> near it for selling archivally sound prints. (Cheap enough for 
> proofing though...do you really get what you pay for?)
> 
> Believe what you want, Do what you will...
> Cathy
> 
> 
> I pulled out just one post from the Piezo3000 archives:
> 
> "If that is what it is supposed to be, they [Epson] have a major 
> problem in quality control and/or product stability after it leaves 
> the factory.
> 
> I tested EAM with both the Light Impressions and Lineco paper pH 
> testing pens.
> 
> Both indicated that there was a neutral or basic coating on the 
> front. The pens dissolve this coating but if applied lightly they 
> turned blue (LM pen) or lavender (Lineco pen).
> 
> The back also appears to be coated and this tests acid with both 
> pens. The coating might be to improve mechanical handling in 
> converting.
> 
> Tearing the paper I checked the core and it tests acid with both 
pens.
> 
> Steadman reported similar results on different batches.
> 
> Now I am willing to believe that it might have been manufactured as 
> an acid free and lignin free paper with no added pH buffers. These 
> would test slightly acid, pH = 6.0, after exposure to the 
atmosphere 
> and certainly with the application of an acid coating.
> 
> However, there is obviously no alkaline reserve in the paper. It 
does 
> not meet ASTM or ISO standards for permanent document paper and 
would 
> not qualify for purchase by any U.S. Federal government agency, 
many 
> individual states nor some European governments. Is it going to 
self 
> destruct real fast? Probably not. Is it going to last as long as a 
> buffered paper? No way."
> 
> 
(snip)

Re: [Digital BW] Re: EAM Archivability WAS Fade test: Museo v. EAM

2001-08-31 by SKID Photography

> <snip>
> I am also inclined not to use it anymore. I am trying to find a paper
> that has EAM's image stability and print qualities but also has the
> properties of an archival paper. While I am finding some likely
> candidates, Legion Photo Matte, Eclipse Satine, the soon to arrive
> Hahnemule Watercolor Rag Smooth (HWRS) none of them precisely matches
> EAM's print quality.

How about Epson Fine Art Smooth (made by Crane for Epson) and Osprey from Hawk Mountain?

Both are smooth finish, 100% rag, acid free, no brighteners, and coated for inkjet acceptance.  NB:  I have
not actually seen these papers, only read about them.

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: EAM Archivability WAS Fade test: Museo v. EAM

2001-08-31 by Martin Wesley

Harvey,

The Epson Fine Art Smooth sounds very nice but only comes in rolls 
and I don't really want to have to deal with cutting it down. I hope 
that it will come out in desktop sizes.

I tried the Osprey and I don't remember what my reaciton was. I still 
have some and will go back and give it another try.

Thanks,
Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., SKID Photography 
<skid@b...> wrote:
> > <snip>
> > I am also inclined not to use it anymore. I am trying to find a 
paper
> > that has EAM's image stability and print qualities but also has 
the
> > properties of an archival paper. While I am finding some likely
> > candidates, Legion Photo Matte, Eclipse Satine, the soon to arrive
> > Hahnemule Watercolor Rag Smooth (HWRS) none of them precisely 
matches
> > EAM's print quality.
> 
> How about Epson Fine Art Smooth (made by Crane for Epson) and 
Osprey from Hawk Mountain?
> 
> Both are smooth finish, 100% rag, acid free, no brighteners, and 
coated for inkjet acceptance.  NB:  I have
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> not actually seen these papers, only read about them.
> 
> Harvey Ferdschneider
> partner, SKID Photography, NYC
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: EAM Archivability WAS Fade test: Museo v. EAM

2001-08-31 by Mark Tucker

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
> I tried the Osprey and I don't remember what my reaciton was. I 
still 
> have some and will go back and give it another try.

I have used Osprey in the past. It's a bit lightweight for me, but it 
has a very unique finish; almost like velvet. Almost kinda furry, 
but in a subtle way. One benefit is that it's sold by George Coon 
at HawkMountain, who's a good guy, and easy to talk to on the 
phone if you had issues. I do know though, that Osprey is 
acknowledged to be not as "sharp" as some of his newer 
papers like Merlin. 

Merlin is a nice sheet; very white base, and a substantial feeling 
of weight in your hand (approx 250gsm). I had some serious 
colorshift issues with it though with MIS lightfast dyes, but that 
might not apply with other inks. Again, best to test first, but Merlin 
could be a good candidate, especially if you like Epson Smooth 
Fine Art. It's very similar to that in look/feel, but whiter, and stouter 
than the rollweight of ESFA.

Info at: http://www.hawkmtnartpapers.com

-Mark Tucker

[Digital BW] Re: EAM Archivability WAS Fade test: Museo v. EAM

2001-09-01 by Tom Keesling

Paul,

I expect to be doing some of this type of work later this year, but 
am just now installing my VM-HEX inks in my 1280 and haven't begun 
the paper testing process yet with these inks. Can you explain how 
you arrived at your conclusion re the Museo for this purpose? What 
other papers did you consider to be good candidates?

Thanks...

Tom Keesling


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:

> I am
> considering Museo for prints that are copies of old photos and are 
likely to
> be mostly in dark storage. (I've done some work for the local 
museum, among
> others, in coping old photos for preservation purposes.  So it's a 
serious
> issue for me.)

[Digital BW] Re: EAM Archivability WAS Fade test: Museo v. EAM

2001-09-01 by Paul Roark

Paul Roark wrote:

>> I am considering Museo for prints that are copies
>>of old photos and are likely to
>> be mostly in dark storage.

Tom Keesling wrote:

>... Can you explain how
>you arrived at your conclusion re the Museo for this purpose? What
>other papers did you consider to be good candidates?

Tom,

Although for most purposes I find EAM to be what I like the best, I do worry
about EAM's apparent acidity for very long dark storage.  I'd like to be
able to tell people that the paper is acid free.  I'm really not comfortable
saying that for EAM.

I tend to think that Epson designed EAM for image permanence rather than
long term dark storage, where it's possible less acid could be a factor that
would matter.

I think there are probably many good, acid free papers.  I just happen to
have Museo, the price isn't too bad, it prints well with the MIS VM inkset
and curves with no alterations, and I think the slightly higher thickness
feels better than EAM.  (In my mounted display prints feel doesn't enter
into the consideration.)

I've tended to avoid the very thick papers due to concerns about printer
head wear and clogging.  However, Museo seems to work very well in my 1160.
Additionally, while the blacks of Museo are not great, in old photo
reproduction I don't think that matters.  Finally, the texture seems about
right for the job.  In my landscapes I much prefer the smooth surface of
EAM, but for old photos, the slightly textured surface looks good -- just my
subjective take on it.

Actually, I've also used some good old Somerset Enhanced for old photo
reproduction.  I think it looks good also.

To be honest, I don't spend a lot of time on the paper issue.  There just
isn't enough time to take on all the issues that exist in this field.  So, I
read what others are doing and try a paper only when there seems to be a lot
of people who really like it.  When I eliminate the thick ones
(significantly over 10 mils) that keeps the number of papers to a minimum.
Then I stick the paper in the fader and see how it does.  Museo faded faster
than EAM (the champ) but it actually color shifted less -- really a rather
good performance.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Re: EAM Archivability WAS Fade test: Museo v. EAM

2001-09-01 by Robert Rex

Actually, The SFA and TFA come in rolls and sheets.
24" x 50', 36" x 50' and 44" x 50' rolls are 225 gsm 
24" x30" and 36" x 44" sheets are 425 gsm
anyone requesting samples, please forward your mailing address, and system
you are using to rrex@... and i'll get them out to you.
sincerely
robert rex

At 09:33 PM 8/31/01 -0000, you wrote:
>  Harvey,
> 
> The Epson Fine Art Smooth sounds very nice but only comes in rolls 
> and I don't really want to have to deal with cutting it down. I hope 
> that it will come out in desktop sizes.
> 
> I tried the Osprey and I don't remember what my reaciton was. I still 
> have some and will go back and give it another try.
> 
> Thanks,
> Martin
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., SKID Photography 
><> wrote:
>>><>
>>> I am also inclined not to use it anymore. I am trying to find a 
> paper
>>> that has EAM's image stability and print qualities but also has 
> the
>>> properties of an archival paper. While I am finding some likely
>>> candidates, Legion Photo Matte, Eclipse Satine, the soon to arrive
>>> Hahnemule Watercolor Rag Smooth (HWRS) none of them precisely 
> matches
>>> EAM's print quality.
>> 
>> How about Epson Fine Art Smooth (made by Crane for Epson) and 
> Osprey from Hawk Mountain?
>> 
>> Both are smooth finish, 100% rag, acid free, no brighteners, and 
>   I have
>> not actually seen these papers, only read about them.
>> 
>> Harvey Ferdschneider
>> partner, SKID Photography, NYC

PLEASE NOTE:  WHEN REPLYING, ENSURE THAT EMAIL ADDRESS READS--

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[Digital BW] Re: EAM Archivability WAS Fade test: Museo v. EAM

2001-09-01 by Tom Keesling

Paul,

Thanks for your thoughts on the Museo, etc. for dark storage.

All of my photo restoration work to date has been for individuals who 
plan to display the new prints. Like you, I haven't had a lot of time 
to experiment with all the new papers, plus I just got my MIS HEX 
variable tone inks set up last night. So, basically, I'm starting by 
learning as much as I can from the pioneers in this group who've 
already been testing and working with the various papers.

Like you, I tend to be cautious. I don't want to over-promise 
customers when it comes to the archival qualities of their prints. In 
many cases they're expecting these photo restorations to be heirlooms 
someday and I don't want to disappoint them even if I'm not around 
when these prints are passed on to the next generation.

Your insight is very helpful, and hopefully I can contribute to this 
discussion in the not too distant future.

Thanks...

Tom Keesling
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Paul Roark wrote:
> 
> Although for most purposes I find EAM to be what I like the best, I 
do worry
> about EAM's apparent acidity for very long dark storage.  I'd like 
to be
> able to tell people that the paper is acid free.  I'm really not 
comfortable
> saying that for EAM.

Merlin and Osprey

2001-09-01 by Antonis Ricos

Mark,

for the record, Merlin and Osprey did not do well with Piezo inks, producing a 
dmax in the 1.43 - 1.48 range. If you get a better number with other quads, 
please post. For reference, the Hahnemuhles get into the 1.60 range.

Antonis

PS. the URL for Hawk Mountain is always available in our Bookmarks section.



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...> wrote:
...
 I do know though, that Osprey is 
> acknowledged to be not as "sharp" as some of his newer 
> papers like Merlin. 
...
Again, best to test first, but Merlin 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> could be a good candidate, especially if you like Epson Smooth 
> Fine Art. It's very similar to that in look/feel, but whiter, and stouter 
> than the rollweight of ESFA.
> 
> Info at: http://www.hawkmtnartpapers.com
> 
> -Mark Tucker

Re: [Digital BW] Merlin and Osprey

2001-09-01 by meander@mail.dk

>Mark,
>
>for the record, Merlin and Osprey did not do well with Piezo inks
>
>Antonis
>

Nah, I think you got it wrong. Merlin did very well....it was King 
Arthur who messed things up.....cant remember an Osprey in the story, 
more like an owl.

Jerry.

Re: Merlin and Osprey

2001-09-01 by ncm

Jerry,

It was a goose, Jerry, a grey goose. At least in the book. Dunno what 
Disney did to it.

Cheers,

Nina
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>Nah, I think you got it wrong. Merlin did very well....it was King 
>Arthur who messed things up.....cant remember an Osprey in the story, 
>more like an owl.

Re: [Digital BW] Merlin and Osprey

2001-09-02 by Diana York / Hawk Meadow Morgans

I use Merlin and Osprey quite a bit (and Red Tail too) with the Piezo BW
system on a 3000. Not "every" application requires the same thing. I do some
photographs (mostly on Merlin and Peregrine, our smoothest papers) and the
customers are extremely happy. I do quite a bit of b/w artwork reproduction
(pencil, pen & ink, charcoal) with this system and use Red Tail (uncoated)
and Osprey (coated) and get EXCELLENT results.

Of course, I am a bit biased, as I am co-owner of Hawk Mountain Art Papers
:)

Thank you Mark - I still have a few of the Merlin prints you sent us -
Merlin did do an excellent job at detail reproduction - people are always
amazed when they see them - and they like the colorized effect (they think
it was done on purpose  :)

Diana York
Hawk Mountain Art Papers www.hawkmtnartpapers.com
100% cotton digital fine art inkjet print papers
Hawk Mountain Editions, Ltd.  www.hawkmtneditions.com
Fine Art Prints

----- Original Message -----
From: Antonis Ricos <antonisphoto@...>

> Mark,
> for the record, Merlin and Osprey did not do well with Piezo inks,
producing a
> dmax in the 1.43 - 1.48 range. If you get a better number with other
quads,
> please post. For reference, the Hahnemuhles get into the 1.60 range.
> Antonis
>
> PS. the URL for Hawk Mountain is always available in our Bookmarks
section.

"Mark Tucker"
>  I do know though, that Osprey is
> > acknowledged to be not as "sharp" as some of his newer
> > papers like Merlin.
> ...
> Again, best to test first, but Merlin
> > could be a good candidate, especially if you like Epson Smooth
> > Fine Art. It's very similar to that in look/feel, but whiter, and
stouter
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > than the rollweight of ESFA.
> >
> > Info at: http://www.hawkmtnartpapers.com
> >
> > -Mark Tucker

Re: [Digital BW] Merlin and Osprey

2001-09-02 by Diana York / Hawk Meadow Morgans

Just for the record:
a Merlin is a small raptor. All our papers are named after hawks or hawk
related terms:
Red Tail, Osprey, Goshawk, Merlin, Condor, Talon, Kestrel, Aerie.

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: <meander@...>
> Nah, I think you got it wrong. Merlin did very well....it was King
> Arthur who messed things up.....cant remember an Osprey in the story,
> more like an owl.
> Jerry.

Re:Merlin and Osprey

2001-09-02 by Antonis Ricos

Diana,

as always, thanks for being here. Too bad we can't all be in a room and look 
at actual prints. I know from having done that with Robert Rex (Crane) how 
useful it is to see an actual image before we pass judgment based on dmax 
readings alone.  Every image is different and not all need the absolute 
deepest blac. So you are right, not every application requires the same thing!

Antonis



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Diana York / Hawk Meadow 
Morgans" <diana@h...> wrote:
> I use Merlin and Osprey quite a bit (and Red Tail too) with the Piezo BW
> system on a 3000. Not "every" application requires the same thing. I do 
some
> photographs (mostly on Merlin and Peregrine, our smoothest papers) and 
the
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> customers are extremely happy. I do quite a bit of b/w artwork reproduction
> (pencil, pen & ink, charcoal) with this system and use Red Tail (uncoated)
> and Osprey (coated) and get EXCELLENT results.

Re: [Digital BW] Merlin and Osprey

2001-09-02 by Mark Tucker

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Diana York / Hawk 
Meadow Morgans" <diana@h...> wrote:
> Thank you Mark - I still have a few of the Merlin prints you sent 
us -
> Merlin did do an excellent job at detail reproduction - people 
are always
> amazed when they see them - and they like the colorized effect 
(they think
> it was done on purpose  :)


All of this talk has me paranoid now about the degree of 
richness of black that I'm getting out of my combo of Epson 
Smooth Fine Art, and the MIS 6color dyes. I wish I had a way to 
read the DMAX number. To me, it seems pretty darn black and 
rich, but then, who knows, maybe there's something out there 
that's much much better. 

I still fight the issue of subtle color crossovers, even with this 
custom profile. That also is what is making me curious about 
switching to the variable MIS quads for my 7000.  I saw on their 
site that they sell them in bulk, and they sell virgin 7000 carts, 
and so i guess it's theoretically possible to do it now. I'm just not 
sure I want to get into the business of filling these carts by hand; 
could be a whole new set of issues.

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