Digital BW, The Print

Ernst,

I would love to see MIS or ConeTech come out with an ink set similar to the
Lysonic E but done with pigment inks. The problem in mixing them up yourself
is keeping the proper overall density. Even in blending similar inks like
MIS-FS Standard and Neutral some density shifts were obvious. I assume that
the companies have a great deal of expertise in this but I would not want to
try it myself even with a spectrophotometer.

You would have to do many trials mixing up an ink, loading it into a K
cartridge, printing a mono-ink wedge, take readings, compare them to the
visual density you want for the particular ink position you are mixing up,
adjust your formula and do it all over again until you got it right. I can
be done but a lot of work from scratch.

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message -----
From: "Ernst Dinkla" <e.dinkla@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2002 10:25 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Small Gamut (was Density Meas .... etc.)


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 6:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Density Measurements on 2200 Wedges
>
>
> > Robert, they appear to have greatly improved the metamerism with the SG
> > inkset. If you print to a nice neutral in daylight, the prints look just
> > a tad sepia in tungsten, but not much. It's a great improvement from the
> > magenta metamerism they used to have.
>
> Is a SG inkset more complex than mixing a 4 tone quad inkset with a CMYK
> inkset of the same manufacturer ?
> The most simple mix would be 50% Y to 50 % (yellow)grey, etc. A MIS mix of
> pigment inks must be the easiest.
> Spectratone with Wide Spectrum for a dye version. As I understand it
> American Ink was the only other manufacturer of a SG inkset and they never
> launched it. Could be a patent issue (Joseph Holmes) of course.
>
> Ernst
>
>
>
>
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Small Gamut (was Density Meas .... etc.)

Martin, you wrote:


> I would love to see MIS or ConeTech come out with an ink set similar to
the
> Lysonic E but done with pigment inks. The problem in mixing them up
yourself
> is keeping the proper overall density. Even in blending similar inks like
> MIS-FS Standard and Neutral some density shifts were obvious. I assume
that
> the companies have a great deal of expertise in this but I would not want
to
> try it myself even with a spectrophotometer.

There must be a quad set that has the tonal values of a CMYK inkset. No gain
at the shadows or highlights. A set like that will be suitable for mixing
with CMYK inks. I'm probably too naive :-)
Even with an extended tone scale it must be possible to get all in line with
the RIP that I have, linearising the CMYK stepwedges with a Spectrometer
although they are all more or less grey then.

> You would have to do many trials mixing up an ink, loading it into a K
> cartridge, printing a mono-ink wedge, take readings, compare them to the
> visual density you want for the particular ink position you are mixing up,
> adjust your formula and do it all over again until you got it right. I can
> be done but a lot of work from scratch.

Not something I'm eager to do, that's correct. So I hope it isn't necessary.
There's a spectrometer here, I will equip the 3000 with a CIS then. Bought
cuvettes with this in mind, already checked a suitable lightsource for
measuring with the spectrometer through the cuvettes. But I still hope it
isn't necessary.

Ernst


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ernst Dinkla" <e.dinkla@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2002 10:25 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Small Gamut (was Density Meas .... etc.)
>
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 6:23 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Density Measurements on 2200 Wedges
> >
> >
> > > Robert, they appear to have greatly improved the metamerism with the
SG
> > > inkset. If you print to a nice neutral in daylight, the prints look
just
> > > a tad sepia in tungsten, but not much. It's a great improvement from
the
> > > magenta metamerism they used to have.
> >
> > Is a SG inkset more complex than mixing a 4 tone quad inkset with a CMYK
> > inkset of the same manufacturer ?
> > The most simple mix would be 50% Y to 50 % (yellow)grey, etc. A MIS mix
of
> > pigment inks must be the easiest.
> > Spectratone with Wide Spectrum for a dye version. As I understand it
> > American Ink was the only other manufacturer of a SG inkset and they
never

> > launched it. Could be a patent issue (Joseph Holmes) of course.
> >
> > Ernst

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ernst Dinkla" <e.dinkla@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 8:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Small Gamut (was Density Meas .... etc.)


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 7:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Small Gamut (was Density Meas .... etc.)
>
> Martin, you wrote:
>
>
> > I would love to see MIS or ConeTech come out with an ink set similar to
> the
> > Lysonic E but done with pigment inks. The problem in mixing them up
> yourself
> > is keeping the proper overall density. Even in blending similar inks
like
> > MIS-FS Standard and Neutral some density shifts were obvious. I assume
> that
> > the companies have a great deal of expertise in this but I would not
want
> to
> > try it myself even with a spectrophotometer.
>
> There must be a quad set that has the tonal values of a CMYK inkset. No
gain
> at the shadows or highlights. A set like that will be suitable for mixing
> with CMYK inks. I'm probably too naive :-)

I see what you are saying but I don't think any of the companies have taken
that approach with the pigmented grayscale ink. I don't know why.

> Even with an extended tone scale it must be possible to get all in line
with
> the RIP that I have, linearising the CMYK stepwedges with a Spectrometer
> although they are all more or less grey then.

You should be able to do it. I have to wonder though why no one has done it
already?
>
> > You would have to do many trials mixing up an ink, loading it into a K
> > cartridge, printing a mono-ink wedge, take readings, compare them to the
> > visual density you want for the particular ink position you are mixing
up,
> > adjust your formula and do it all over again until you got it right. I
can
> > be done but a lot of work from scratch.
>
> Not something I'm eager to do, that's correct. So I hope it isn't
necessary.
> There's a spectrometer here, I will equip the 3000 with a CIS then. Bought
> cuvettes with this in mind, already checked a suitable lightsource for
> measuring with the spectrometer through the cuvettes. But I still hope it
> isn't necessary.

I think that you will need a reflective spectrophotometer to check the dried
in ink on paper rather than measuring the ink itself in a cuvette. I hope
you have success and will share your results.

Martin
>
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ernst Dinkla" <e.dinkla@...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2002 10:25 PM
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Small Gamut (was Density Meas .... etc.)
> >
> >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
> > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 6:23 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Density Measurements on 2200 Wedges
> > >
> > >
> > > > Robert, they appear to have greatly improved the metamerism with the
> SG
> > > > inkset. If you print to a nice neutral in daylight, the prints look
> just
> > > > a tad sepia in tungsten, but not much. It's a great improvement from
> the
> > > > magenta metamerism they used to have.
> > >
> > > Is a SG inkset more complex than mixing a 4 tone quad inkset with a
CMYK
> > > inkset of the same manufacturer ?
> > > The most simple mix would be 50% Y to 50 % (yellow)grey, etc. A MIS
mix
> of
> > > pigment inks must be the easiest.
> > > Spectratone with Wide Spectrum for a dye version. As I understand it
> > > American Ink was the only other manufacturer of a SG inkset and they
> never
> > > launched it. Could be a patent issue (Joseph Holmes) of course.
> > >
> > > Ernst
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Martin, you wrote,

> I have to wonder though why no one has done it
> already?

That is the main reason why I put this idea here, I hope someone writes that
it is quite easy or 'pay attention to etc'. Of course I don't think that my
idea is unique. Mixing an existing quad set with an existing CMYK set to get
a Small Gamut set must have crossed a lot of minds. So I do hope that people
with a bit of mixing history fill in what trouble I can expect. But a bit
more specific than 'it is difficult'.

> I think that you will need a reflective spectrophotometer to check the
dried
> in ink on paper rather than measuring the ink itself in a cuvette. I hope
> you have success and will share your results.

To fine tune the ink it is necessary to measure the stepwedge print results
of a linearised printer of course.
To control mixing and imitate existing quad sets etc it goes faster when
there are readings of the ink in the cuvettes. That will speed up the job.

Ernst