Digital BW, The Print

Martin wrote, in part:

>...
>people tried MIS-VM inks in the 2000P ...
> The problem was that no one was willing to
>fine tune the RGB separation curves. ...

I believe the PC version of the VM curves for the P2000 are in fairly good
shape.

What I noticed in the process of writing the curves was that the variation
from print to print seemed to be greater than what I generally see with
other printers.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com



----- Original Message -----

From: "a_pettit_jr" <a_pettit_jr@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 2:04 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Epson 2000P what's different ?


> Out of all of Epson's printer line, why was the 2000P never useful
> for BW printing? I still have one, going to give it one more BW try
> and then, reluctantly purchase a 1280.
>
> Regards,
> Alex
>

Actually Paul,

It was your interesting recommendation for using the quad FS inkset with a 1280 that motivated me to give the ole' 2000P one more chance. I have ordered a CIS from MIS and am going to try the B= 'B', C & M = 'C', LC & LM = 'M' , Y = 'Y'. Additionally, I have ordered the diluting solvent, as Yellow seems much lighter than the 27% density value that someone had spec'd for the FS yellow position ink....

I'll let you know the results. The only loss will be getting the 1280 chips and the reprogramming of the chip Full box if I am forced to get a 1280...

( I tried the VM carts perhaps 9 months ago with less than ideal results. )

Thanks,
Alex

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> wrote:

> Martin wrote, in part:
> 
> >...
> >people tried MIS-VM inks in the 2000P ...
> > The problem was that no one was willing to
> >fine tune the RGB separation curves. ...
> 
> I believe the PC version of the VM curves for the P2000 are in fairly good
> shape.
> 
> What I noticed in the process of writing the curves was that the variation
> from print to print seemed to be greater than what I generally see with
> other printers.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> 
>
> >

Alex,

>... as Yellow seems much lighter than the 27% density value
>that someone had spec'd for the FS yellow position ink....

The original FS ink was based on defective Piezo systems, from what I can
tell.  The FS-N and re-done FS are as close to the correct Piezo densities
as the average PiezoBW inkset was.  (They do all vary a bit between
batches -- unfortunately.)  The 27% number is the old, defective system.  (I
sure hope inks with m = 38% and y = 27% are no longer being made for the FS
inksets.)

>I'll let you know the results. ...

Yes, let us know.  There are some who think the 2000P actually has a
superior dither, being designed specifically for photos.  If you can deal
with writing the curves to control the inkset, it might make a very nice B&W
printer (though slow, I'm told).

Good luck.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

I just received the FS set.
I called MIS and they spec'd the densities as

B 100 %

C & PC = 28.5 %

M & PM = 7.2 %

Y = 3.25 %

The Yellow seems correct, but  Magenta spec seems strange ...
 I'd have anticipated 72 % rather than 7.2 %
I need to test them to be sure ...

Alex

Alex,

I didn't expect that response/labeling from MIS.  In the past they have
specified arbitrary densities that just showed that one was denser than the
other.  I'd have to check my notes, but I think the densities they have
disclosed here are their mixing ratios -- percentage of the mix that is the
black ink.  This did not used to be public (although I've given out my
approximations and those things that I do before MIS expresses interest).
One thing these mixing percentages show is how non-linear the mixing is.
The cyan is is about 83% as black as 100% black, even though it is mostly
clear base and only 28.5% black ink.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com


______________________________________

  -----Original Message-----
  From: a_pettit_jr [mailto:a_pettit_jr@...]
  Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 12:10 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Epson 2000P what's different ?


  I just received the FS set.
  I called MIS and they spec'd the densities as

  B 100 %

  C & PC = 28.5 %

  M & PM = 7.2 %

  Y = 3.25 %

  The Yellow seems correct, but  Magenta spec seems strange ...
  I'd have anticipated 72 % rather than 7.2 %
  I need to test them to be sure ...

  Alex


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I agree with Paul, these are probably mixing ratios. I have also 
gotten a similar response from Bob Zeiss in the past.

If you are interested in the actual reflective densities, then run a 
6-ink purge print and check the densities with your scanner or 
directly with a densitometer.

Jeff Randall

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "a_pettit_jr" 
<a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:

> I just received the FS set.
> I called MIS and they spec'd the densities as
> 
> B 100 %
> 
> C & PC = 28.5 %
> 
> M & PM = 7.2 %
> 
> Y = 3.25 %
> 
> The Yellow seems correct, but  Magenta spec seems strange ...
>  I'd have anticipated 72 % rather than 7.2 %
> I need to test them to be sure ...
> 
> Alex

Jeff,

Would you get a good reading this way or would it be better to load each ink
in a Black cartridge and make a Black Only print? I am wondering with the
purge file whether the driver give you a perfect separation.

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message -----
From: "jrandall1149" <jrandall@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 1:37 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Epson 2000P what's different ?


> I agree with Paul, these are probably mixing ratios. I have also
> gotten a similar response from Bob Zeiss in the past.
>
> If you are interested in the actual reflective densities, then run a
> 6-ink purge print and check the densities with your scanner or
> directly with a densitometer.
>
> Jeff Randall
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "a_pettit_jr"
> <a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:
> > I just received the FS set.
> > I called MIS and they spec'd the densities as
> >
> > B 100 %
> >
> > C & PC = 28.5 %
> >
> > M & PM = 7.2 %
> >
> > Y = 3.25 %
> >
> > The Yellow seems correct, but  Magenta spec seems strange ...
> >  I'd have anticipated 72 % rather than 7.2 %
> > I need to test them to be sure ...
> >
> > Alex
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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>
>

Martin:

Wasn't this a thread topic earlier this year?

At least for a 4-ink system, I am reasonably convinced that a purge 
print yields representative values.  I am not certain about the 6-ink 
systems (esp the PC and PM position inks). ** I should have expressed 
my uncertainty in my previous post.**  I agree that loading up black 
carts with each of the 5 shades of gray in a hex-set would work well, 
but is a little costly.  I guess it boils down to how accurate the 
results need to be or how the results will be used.  I suppose one 
could also try a smear test (drawing the ink out from heavy 
application to a feather edge on a sheet of paper) for each ink as an 
alternative.  


Jeff Randall



   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> Jeff,
> 
> Would you get a good reading this way or would it be better to load 
each ink
> in a Black cartridge and make a Black Only print? I am wondering 
with the
> purge file whether the driver give you a perfect separation.
> 
> Martin Wesley
> 
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jrandall1149" <jrandall@c...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 1:37 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Epson 2000P what's different ?
> 
> 
> > I agree with Paul, these are probably mixing ratios. I have also
> > gotten a similar response from Bob Zeiss in the past.
> >
> > If you are interested in the actual reflective densities, then 
run a
> > 6-ink purge print and check the densities with your scanner or
> > directly with a densitometer.
> >
> > Jeff Randall
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "a_pettit_jr"
> > <a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:
> > > I just received the FS set.
> > > I called MIS and they spec'd the densities as
> > >
> > > B 100 %
> > >
> > > C & PC = 28.5 %
> > >
> > > M & PM = 7.2 %
> > >
> > > Y = 3.25 %
> > >
> > > The Yellow seems correct, but  Magenta spec seems strange ...
> > >  I'd have anticipated 72 % rather than 7.2 %
> > > I need to test them to be sure ...
> > >
> > > Alex
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> >
> >
> >

Hello Paul,

I was not asking for a secret formula: all I wished to
know was the relative density relationship of the inkset.

I think I will try something simplistic like single drop
dilutions in 6 equal test tubes of water , then I can add
drops to the lighter shades until I get an approx equal 
density to another and obtain some crude proportionality...

I was just desiring to attempt to have some grey shades 
roughly equal to that of the hex color set densities to 
start with rather than designing complex correction curves.

I am Not in any way an expert in this at All. 
( probably more like totally inept )
As I said, I just wished to try one last effort to 
make this 2000P function with BW inks before stuffing 
it away in the closet.

Alex

Since I 'lost' this info until I just pulled up this post,
my test.tube/dropper density measurements are shockingly consistent.

If someone can tell me the correct proportionality for the PM and PC, I think I can handle the dilutions ....

B = 100 %

M & PM = 7.3 %

C & PC = 23 %

Y = 3.4 %

Alex P


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "a_pettit_jr" <a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:

> I just received the FS set.
> I called MIS and they spec'd the densities as
> 
> B 100 %
> 
> C & PC = 28.5 %
> 
> M & PM = 7.2 %
> 
> Y = 3.25 %
> 
> The Yellow seems correct, but  Magenta spec seems strange ...
>  I'd have anticipated 72 % rather than 7.2 %
> I need to test them to be sure ...
> 
> Alex

Alex,

How are you measuring densities?

Note that M=PM & C=PC.  This is the Piezo/FS (non-E series) pattern that is
inconsistent with the Epson driver.  (And one reason I like quad printers,
where one can use an Epson workflow or Piezo workflow with the same inkset.)

Paul

  -----Original Message-----
  From: a_pettit_jr [mailto:a_pettit_jr@...]
  Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 1:47 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Epson 2000P what's different ?


  Since I 'lost' this info until I just pulled up this post,
  my test.tube/dropper density measurements are shockingly consistent.

  If someone can tell me the correct proportionality for the PM and PC, I
think I can handle the dilutions ....

  B = 100 %

  M & PM = 7.3 %

  C & PC = 23 %

  Y = 3.4 %

  Alex P


  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "a_pettit_jr" <a_pettit_jr@y...>
wrote:
  > I just received the FS set.
  > I called MIS and they spec'd the densities as
  >
  > B 100 %
  >
  > C & PC = 28.5 %
  >
  > M & PM = 7.2 %
  >
  > Y = 3.25 %
  >
  > The Yellow seems correct, but  Magenta spec seems strange ...
  >  I'd have anticipated 72 % rather than 7.2 %
  > I need to test them to be sure ...
  >
  > Alex


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  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
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unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
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  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm glad to see that there's life left for the Epson 2000P, the 
printer everyone loves to hate. Now that the 2200 is out, we should 
see a glut of 2000P's on Ebay for less than $400.

What I don't understand is why the 1280 was so popular for BW 
printing. It seems to me that with the variable droplet technolory in 
the 2000P, along with the fact that it was DESIGNED to squirt 
PIGMENTS from the getgo, we would all have a whole lot less clogging 
issues and cleaner laydown of pigments in the process.

I agree with Paul on the incompatibilities of "E" hex inks against 
the other quad inksets which will work with the Cone or Epson 
drivers. 

However, since Cone's driver doesn't support the 2000P as a Quad 
printer, we have not choice but to go the "E" route anyhow on the 
2000P. If it does work as well as a few people here have said, we 
gain the benefit of using Qimage Pro riding on top of the Epson 
driver and make an "overnight production" machine out the 2000P anc 
cut roll stock of EAM. Exporting one print at a time is a vacuous 
proposition for those who want to cue up 50-ix10's and go home.

Claude Jodoin

It was quite simplistic as I have no densiometer..
I put a drop of black into a small bottle and diluted with a calibrated 1 ml. syringe type dropper until I obtained a light gray color. As it turns out, that was a dilution of 1750:1. I then just diluted the others to as closely the same color as the grey and calculated the proportionality of the drops. ( Y required only 60 drops of water to equal the black dilution, 60/1750*100 = 3.4% ) aka Kitchen Sink Science <G>

I was just looking at nozzle test from the Epson 2000P color set. I am wondering if the C and M positions could be occupied by the 23% inks ( Cyan and PCyan), the PC and PM by the 7.3 % inks (Magenta and PMag), B=B and Y=Y ?? It looks close..

Alex



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> wrote:

> Alex,
> 
> How are you measuring densities?
> 
> Note that M=PM & C=PC.  This is the Piezo/FS (non-E series) pattern that is
> inconsistent with the Epson driver.  (And one reason I like quad printers,
> where one can use an Epson workflow or Piezo workflow with the same inkset.)
> 
> Paul
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Alex,

Interesting methodology for density measurement.  It does not result in
numbers that are equivalent to printing the ink on the paper, but if it
works to find equivalent densities, then it is very useful.

Your thoughts regarding FS ink placement in a hextone machine are what I
recommended before the FS-E series inks were out.  Several people tested it,
and it seemed to work well.  Of course, writing the curve(s) to control the
mix has not been done.  (You'll be able to do a grayscale curve for speed
and convenience, and an RGB curve to maximize quality.)

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

  -----Original Message-----
  From: a_pettit_jr [mailto:a_pettit_jr@...]
  Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 3:38 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Epson 2000P what's different ?


  It was quite simplistic as I have no densiometer..
  I put a drop of black into a small bottle and diluted with a calibrated 1
ml. syringe type dropper until I obtained a light gray color. As it turns
out, that was a dilution of 1750:1. I then just diluted the others to as
closely the same color as the grey and calculated the proportionality of the
drops. ( Y required only 60 drops of water to equal the black dilution,
60/1750*100 = 3.4% ) aka Kitchen Sink Science <G>

  I was just looking at nozzle test from the Epson 2000P color set. I am
wondering if the C and M positions could be occupied by the 23% inks ( Cyan
and PCyan), the PC and PM by the 7.3 % inks (Magenta and PMag), B=B and Y=Y
?? It looks close..

  Alex



  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...>
wrote:
  > Alex,
  >
  > How are you measuring densities?
  >
  > Note that M=PM & C=PC.  This is the Piezo/FS (non-E series) pattern that
is
  > inconsistent with the Epson driver.  (And one reason I like quad
printers,
  > where one can use an Epson workflow or Piezo workflow with the same
inkset.)
  >
  > Paul
  >



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I called MIS and was told the only inks I needed to update from the FS hex to FS hex-E were the PM and PC inks.... ordered !
( I will probably still experiment a bit this weekend with the plain FS set)

Thanks,
Alex

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> wrote:

> Alex,
> 
> Interesting methodology for density measurement.  It does not result in
> numbers that are equivalent to printing the ink on the paper, but if it
> works to find equivalent densities, then it is very useful.
> 
> Your thoughts regarding FS ink placement in a hextone machine are what I
> recommended before the FS-E series inks were out.  Several people tested it,
> and it seemed to work well.  Of course, writing the curve(s) to control the
> mix has not been done.  (You'll be able to do a grayscale curve for speed
> and convenience, and an RGB curve to maximize quality.)
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
>   
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]