Digital BW, The Print

----- Original Message -----

From: "Austin Franklin" <darkroom@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2002 4:50 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Epson 3000 opinions


> I don't believe the 3000 has direct access to the ink levels...though the
> hardware seems to support it...there is a lever that goes into the
> cartridges, and I believe it does have some "idea" as to the link
> level...much less when it believes it's out.  The 1160 etc. actually count
> the number of ink drops they print...so that's done in firmware, not by
> actually measuring the ink.

The plastic tab that protrudes from the 3000 cart when the ink pouche inside
gets empty has to my knowledge no relation to ink status in a driver menu.
It only is used as a definite signal 'no ink left' and will not allow any
printing from that cart then. On all the Epson inkjets ink use is counted by
fired droplets in the printers
software. That information is kept in the firmware and/or on the cart chip
when available.

In general very few inkjets measure the ink level in  carts or bottles, some
do by measuring the electrical conductivity through the ink.

Ernst

----- Original Message -----

From: "Austin Franklin" <darkroom@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2002 6:18 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Epson 3000 opinions


> Ernst,
>
> > I don't believe the 3000 has direct access to the ink levels...though
the
> > hardware seems to support it...there is a lever that goes into the
> > cartridges, and I believe it does have some "idea" as to the link
> > level...much less when it believes it's out.  The 1160 etc. actually
count
> > the number of ink drops they print...so that's done in firmware, not by
> > actually measuring the ink.
>
> > > The plastic tab that protrudes from the 3000 cart when the ink
> > > pouche inside
> > > gets empty has to my knowledge no relation to ink status in a driver
> menu.
>
> I don't remember seeing any "ink status" in the driver menu on W2k for the
> 3000...is there?

There is  an "ink status" in the utility part of the W98 driver. Counting is
done in the printer itself, the results are transferred to the driver at
every start up sequence. Can't check it for the W2000 driver as it isn't
installed there but the 9000 has it in the W2000 driver as well.

>
> > > It only is used as a definite signal 'no ink left' and will not allow
> any
> > > printing from that cart then.
>
> There are actually two sensors for each cartridge, a "cartridge present"
and
> an "ink out".  I believe you probably can't print with no cartridge
present,
> but I haven't tried that, but you certainly CAN print when the ink out
light
> is on.  There can be quite a bit of ink left when the ink out light is on.

Right, two sensors apart from one another. One that is triggered by the cart
itself to say the cart is in, the other by the plastic tab when the cart
gets empty. Usually then about 20 ml remains in the cart. I may be wrong on
the observation that the printer stops when the light goes on, I'm
interpreting the 9000 behaviour as being the same as the 3000's.
>
> > On all the Epson inkjets ink use is
> > counted by
> > fired droplets in the printers
> > software. That information is kept in the firmware and/or on the cart
chip
> > when available.
>
> I do not believe the 3000 counts droplets, and as I said above, I know the
> 1160, 1270 etc. does.  The only counting I am aware of in the 3000 is
> cleaning cycles, where the reservoir pad becomes ink-saturated, and
requires
> replacing.

The 3000, 9000, 10000, 9600 etc etc all count droplets. Whether that is done
accurately is another matter.
The 9000 service signals for heads, waste ink pad etc are based on it as
well. I think all ink monitoring in the driver is based on droplet counts,
will check the 3000 service manual for it (not sure I got that one but I
have all
the SMs from 5 to 10K).

Ernst

Austin, you wrote:

> > There is  an "ink status" in the utility part of the W98 driver.
>
> For the 3000?  I have W2k, and there is no such thing for the 3000, but
for
> my 1270, there is a graphic display of ink level.  Why would there be one
> for the 3000 for W98, an earlier OS, and not for 2k?  Perhaps.

Don't know, could it progress :-)

> > Counting is done in the printer itself...
>
> Of course, where else could it be done?

In the driver, based on sheets printed instead of droplets.
But it isn't working like that.

Excerpt from the SM of the 3000:
page 2.4.2. Counters
Ink Consumption Counter
This counter accumulates the amount of ink used throughout the printing,
cleaning and flushing operations after a new cartridge is installed. The
value is used to monitor the ink amount remaining in the ink cartridge. The
counter value is reset when the ink cartridge is removed (only when the
printer is on, Ernst). This counter is normally reset with an ink low
condition detected by the ink end sensor* (empty tab, Ernst). Then the Ink
End error occurs when the counter exceeds the specified value.

Note)  The ink end sensor detects an ink end condition when the remainder of
the ink drops to 5% of the capacity. (5% of 110 ml = 22 ml, Ernst)

> > I think all ink monitoring in the driver is based on droplet counts,
> > will check the 3000 service manual for it...
>
> Well, that's my point, it isn't with the 3000, at least as far as the
status
> lights go, and since I don't have any status monitor for ink level in the
> W2k driver, that's the only indication I have, aside from weighing them.

On the 9000 the status lights on the printer are only triggered by the
sensors. It will not print when they are on.
But all monitoring in the driver is done on numbers given by the printer
which of course will also give an empty status to those level indicators
when the cart isn't in or the empty tab has triggered its sensor. It must be
the
same with the 3000 in W98 fashion. I have no desire to install the W2000
driver, I trust your words it doesn't have that facility. BTW, you are not
using an USB/Parallel converter ?

> For the 3000, the ink light on the printer is solely based on the status
of
> the two ink level sensors.  It either flashes when the ink low sensor is
> triggered, and then stays on when the ink out sensor is triggered.

The empty tab of the cart and the sensor for it isn't an analogue system but
just an on/off switch (digital but 1 bit only ;-). It says 'cart empty' when
there's approx 20 ml left in the cart, the pouche is nearly flat then. The
same happens on the 9000.
But on the 9000 the printing stops then as well so you have to insert a new
cart to continue. Could be different on the 3000, it hasn't happened here as
we do not use it often enough, 9000 carts in the 3000.

The two 9000's here have a DIY CIS that bypass the carts straight to the
inklines, the cart empty tabs are removed and the carts are empty. Not empty
enough I discovered Friday when the error 'magenta cart empty' came up and
the 9000 didn't start. Impossible as it has a CIS and the bottle was full.
What I feared was correct, the few ml in the magenta cart had leaked out and
gone to the stupidly located PCB underneath the ink carts, short circuited
the magenta sensor cable plug and triggered that error signal. Dried the
connector and made the magenta cart really empty.

Ernst

Austin, you wrote;


> > In the driver, based on sheets printed instead of droplets.
> > But it isn't working like that.
>
> I don't believe it can reasonably work like that.  This is a value that
must
> follow the printer (even better the ink cartridge for that matter), not be
> in the driver.  Multiple computers can access the printer, and as such,
that
> would be a very inaccurate way to do this.  Also, the printer has built-in
> fonts/functions that the printer controls, and as such, the driver many
not
> be able to figure out, to any accuracy at least, how much of each ink was
> used.  Also, how does the driver know when the cartridge is changed etc.?

Right, that's why they do droplet counting.

> > Excerpt from the SM of the 3000:
> > page 2.4.2. Counters
> > Ink Consumption Counter
> > This counter accumulates the amount of ink used throughout the printing,
> > cleaning and flushing operations after a new cartridge is installed.
>
> But the question is, can the driver get at it at all?  I know it maintains
> it for internal use (such as the "Protect Counter A".  Not that I can tell
> in the EPS documents I have, but that certainly surprises me.  It's also a
> VERY dubious counter, unfortunately, as you have to follow the procedures
> for resetting it etc. very carefully, or it is completely useless.  But,
if
> you say that there is a status monitor on W98 that works with the 3000,
I'll
> have to believe that the level 2 documentation has that information, and
the
> 3000 does support it.

It is a dubious counter so you look at the levels in the driver and order a
new cart on that information but continue to print till the cart empty tab
says empty.

> > The
> > value is used to monitor the ink amount remaining in the ink
> > cartridge.
>
> My driver doesn't use it, and the printer it self, as far as I can tell,
> does not use the "Ink Consumption Counter" for anything...the lights are
> controlled by the physical sensors.

For the continuous warning light: yes! For blinking I think it uses the
droplet counter. The sensor isn't sensuous enough for two steps. One way to
detect that would be that sometimes there is very little time left between
blinking and continuous and at other times it take ages to get to the
continuous stage. The droplet counting is a coarse method. Anyone
experienced that ?

> > On the 9000 the status lights on the printer are only triggered by the
> > sensors. It will not print when they are on.
>
> There aren't two levels on the 9000, like the 3000?  Blinking and solid?

Don't believe so, long time ago. But then again the sensor knows only on or
off. Blinking is a counting result.

> > > For the 3000, the ink light on the printer is solely based on the
status
> > of
> > > the two ink level sensors.  It either flashes when the ink low sensor
is
> > > triggered, and then stays on when the ink out sensor is triggered.
> >
> > The empty tab of the cart and the sensor for it isn't an analogue
> > system but
> > just an on/off switch (digital but 1 bit only ;-).
>
> Ernst, please, I know how it works, thanks.  And, by the way, it's
actually
> two signals, one for low and one for empty.

Don't think so Austin. On your W2000 setup there is still a rudimentary sign
of droplet counting left: the blinking lights on the printers display. 'Call
it progress' was what I intended to write.

Ernst

----- Original Message -----

From: "Austin Franklin" <darkroom@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2002 10:59 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Epson 3000 opinions


> Ernst,
>
> > BTW, you are not
> > using an USB/Parallel converter ?
>
> It occurred to me that you may be using USB on your printers?  Do the
Epson
> status monitors only work with USB (and possibly network), and not with
> parallel connections?

Nope, network and parallel here. The 9000 W98 driver on parallel is still
the best.
With USB/Parallel converters it doesn't work AFAIK.

Ernst

In a message dated 8/25/2002 3:50:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
grdglass@... writes:

SNIP>
> My hangup with the 3000 is thinking I will run out of ink the last inch of a 
> 
> big print so I have put off the decision.
> 
> Helene



You won't have to worry until you've made over a 100 16x20's, Then if all is 
working you should get a flashing ink low light on the printer, and you would 
still have enough for a couple prints.
Steven Meyers



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ernst,

> I don't believe the 3000 has direct access to the ink levels...though the
> hardware seems to support it...there is a lever that goes into the
> cartridges, and I believe it does have some "idea" as to the link
> level...much less when it believes it's out.  The 1160 etc. actually count
> the number of ink drops they print...so that's done in firmware, not by
> actually measuring the ink.

> > The plastic tab that protrudes from the 3000 cart when the ink
> > pouche inside
> > gets empty has to my knowledge no relation to ink status in a driver
menu.

I don't remember seeing any "ink status" in the driver menu on W2k for the
3000...is there?

> > It only is used as a definite signal 'no ink left' and will not allow
any
> > printing from that cart then.

There are actually two sensors for each cartridge, a "cartridge present" and
an "ink out".  I believe you probably can't print with no cartridge present,
but I haven't tried that, but you certainly CAN print when the ink out light
is on.  There can be quite a bit of ink left when the ink out light is on.

> On all the Epson inkjets ink use is
> counted by
> fired droplets in the printers
> software. That information is kept in the firmware and/or on the cart chip
> when available.

I do not believe the 3000 counts droplets, and as I said above, I know the
1160, 1270 etc. does.  The only counting I am aware of in the 3000 is
cleaning cycles, where the reservoir pad becomes ink-saturated, and requires
replacing.

Austin

Lack of a status monitor is no reason to not use a 3000. I rarely use the Epson driver and get along fine without monitoring. 
The lights on the printer will blink when ink gets low, and you will be able to print until the light comes on solid. At this point 
it will stop printing and you will be able to change the cartridge and continue printing even mid print.
Reports of problematic 3000's are overblown in my opinion. When Piezo first came out the 3000 was the only printer 
supported and most of us were not yet aware that we could not use the thickest papers or aware of the necessity of 
perfect alignment. So there was a lot of posting and complaining, things have moved on but this stuff becomes part of the 
percieved knowledge base. Since then we hear of a variety of models with occassional problems, some people go through 
a number of 1160's, and the 1200 is notoriously bad.
The 3000 is still sold by Epson, the longest running model, refurb prices are as high as ever, higher than what I paid over 3 
years ago. It is, in many ways, the ideal traditional quad printer. Four inks, great density, and larger print sizes then the 
desktop models. It's a workhorse. You'll pay a much higher price for the ability to use thicker paper at these sizes.
Of course, you still have a chance of getting a clunker or two, then you'll wish no monitor was the worst of your problems.
Tyler

Ernst,

> > > I don't believe the 3000 has direct access to the ink levels...though
> the
> > > hardware seems to support it...there is a lever that goes into the
> > > cartridges, and I believe it does have some "idea" as to the link
> > > level...much less when it believes it's out.  The 1160 etc. actually
> count
> > > the number of ink drops they print...so that's done in
> firmware, not by
> > > actually measuring the ink.
> >
> > > > The plastic tab that protrudes from the 3000 cart when the ink
> > > > pouche inside
> > > > gets empty has to my knowledge no relation to ink status in a driver
> > menu.
> >
> > I don't remember seeing any "ink status" in the driver menu on
> W2k for the
> > 3000...is there?
>
> There is  an "ink status" in the utility part of the W98 driver.

For the 3000?  I have W2k, and there is no such thing for the 3000, but for
my 1270, there is a graphic display of ink level.  Why would there be one
for the 3000 for W98, an earlier OS, and not for 2k?  Perhaps.

> Counting is done in the printer itself...

Of course, where else could it be done?

> I think all ink monitoring in the driver is based on droplet counts,
> will check the 3000 service manual for it...

Well, that's my point, it isn't with the 3000, at least as far as the status
lights go, and since I don't have any status monitor for ink level in the
W2k driver, that's the only indication I have, aside from weighing them.

For the 3000, the ink light on the printer is solely based on the status of
the two ink level sensors.  It either flashes when the ink low sensor is
triggered, and then stays on when the ink out sensor is triggered.

Austin

----- Original Message -----

From: "Austin Franklin" <darkroom@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 2:39 AM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Epson 3000 opinions


> Hi Ernst,
>
> > > > The
> > > > value is used to monitor the ink amount remaining in the ink
> > > > cartridge.
> > >
> > > My driver doesn't use it, and the printer it self, as far as I can
tell,
> > > does not use the "Ink Consumption Counter" for anything...the lights
are
> > > controlled by the physical sensors.
> >
> > For the continuous warning light: yes! For blinking I think it uses the
> > droplet counter. The sensor isn't sensuous enough for two steps.
>
> Actually, it does use two sensors per ink, one low ink, and one empty.  On
> p. 3-29 they show two physical sensors...one called "Ink Low Sensor" and
one
> called "Ink Cartridge Sensor", and the procedure for removing each one
> individually.  Obviously, the one marked "Ink Low" is for, well, Ink Low,
> and corresponds to the blinking light, as per p. 5-3.

The 'ink cartridge sensor' checks whether a cart is inserted or not.
It doesn't tell you anything about the contents of that cart.

> > > There aren't two levels on the 9000, like the 3000?  Blinking and
solid?
> >
> > Don't believe so, long time ago. But then again the sensor knows
> > only on or
> > off. Blinking is a counting result.
>
> As per the service manual for the 3000, I believe that blinking is simply
> the "Low Ink" mechanical sensor that triggers it, no "counting".

> Well, the service manual clearly shows it's two signals.  Look at the
wiring
> diagram and pinout for CN11, 12, 13 and 7...two active signals.  Now, it
MAY
> count from "Ink Low" to empty...but it appears, according to the service
> manual, that the "Ink Low" is the mechanical trigger for blinking...when
the
> %5 is detected.  It, at least to me, wouldn't make sense to count to "low"
> and use the sensor for "out", simply because the mechanical detection is
far
> more reliable than counting...

Epson isn't known for subtelty on ink consumption. Take an empty cart apart
and you get the picture of how reliable this mechanical detection is.
Reliable in its final action sure but not very accurate for any stage in
between.

> The service manual is somewhat contradictory, it calls the same sensor
"Ink
> low" and "Ink end", but does say that it triggers with %5 left...which to
me
> means low, not out.

The 'empty' cart that you pull out (after the light becomes continues) still
holds 20 ml ink = 5% left.
The 9000 empty cart will contain a bit more.

Ernst

Austin, you are talking piezo driver here, no?  My 1160 print quality
ran rings around my 3000 printer, but that was with Epson drivers.

Jerry

> > Can you elaborate on the differences between the 1160 and 3000
> > and why the
> > 3000 is so much better?
> 
> The 3000 prints looked a LOT better, and I like the large paper size
> available for the 3000.

Correct, Jerry, we are talking about with the Piezo driver.

> Austin, you are talking piezo driver here, no?  My 1160 print quality
> ran rings around my 3000 printer, but that was with Epson drivers.
> 
> Jerry
> 
> > > Can you elaborate on the differences between the 1160 and 3000
> > > and why the
> > > 3000 is so much better?
> > 
> > The 3000 prints looked a LOT better, and I like the large paper size
> > available for the 3000.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Austin, you are talking piezo driver here, no?  My 1160 print quality
> ran rings around my 3000 printer, but that was with Epson drivers.

Just in case anybody new here takes Jerry's continuing insistance about this seriously-
Any good workflow with the Piezo driver, the Epson driver, or a RIP, will yeild beautiful dotless prints from the 3000.
This assumes a traditional quad ink set, not something like the MIS VM's, or color inks. If you see dots with quad prints, you 
need a better workflow.
Tyler

Ernst,

> > > Counting is done in the printer itself...
> >
> > Of course, where else could it be done?
>
> In the driver, based on sheets printed instead of droplets.
> But it isn't working like that.

I don't believe it can reasonably work like that.  This is a value that must
follow the printer (even better the ink cartridge for that matter), not be
in the driver.  Multiple computers can access the printer, and as such, that
would be a very inaccurate way to do this.  Also, the printer has built-in
fonts/functions that the printer controls, and as such, the driver many not
be able to figure out, to any accuracy at least, how much of each ink was
used.  Also, how does the driver know when the cartridge is changed etc.?

> Excerpt from the SM of the 3000:
> page 2.4.2. Counters
> Ink Consumption Counter
> This counter accumulates the amount of ink used throughout the printing,
> cleaning and flushing operations after a new cartridge is installed.

But the question is, can the driver get at it at all?  I know it maintains
it for internal use (such as the "Protect Counter A".  Not that I can tell
in the EPS documents I have, but that certainly surprises me.  It's also a
VERY dubious counter, unfortunately, as you have to follow the procedures
for resetting it etc. very carefully, or it is completely useless.  But, if
you say that there is a status monitor on W98 that works with the 3000, I'll
have to believe that the level 2 documentation has that information, and the
3000 does support it.

> The
> value is used to monitor the ink amount remaining in the ink
> cartridge.

My driver doesn't use it, and the printer it self, as far as I can tell,
does not use the "Ink Consumption Counter" for anything...the lights are
controlled by the physical sensors.

> On the 9000 the status lights on the printer are only triggered by the
> sensors. It will not print when they are on.

There aren't two levels on the 9000, like the 3000?  Blinking and solid?

> ...I have no desire to install the W2000
> driver, I trust your words it doesn't have that facility. BTW, you are not
> using an USB/Parallel converter ?

Nope.

> > For the 3000, the ink light on the printer is solely based on the status
> of
> > the two ink level sensors.  It either flashes when the ink low sensor is
> > triggered, and then stays on when the ink out sensor is triggered.
>
> The empty tab of the cart and the sensor for it isn't an analogue
> system but
> just an on/off switch (digital but 1 bit only ;-).

Ernst, please, I know how it works, thanks.  And, by the way, it's actually
two signals, one for low and one for empty.

Austin

Ernst,

> BTW, you are not
> using an USB/Parallel converter ?

It occurred to me that you may be using USB on your printers?  Do the Epson
status monitors only work with USB (and possibly network), and not with
parallel connections?

Austin

Tyler wrote, in part:

>...
>The 3000 is still sold by Epson, the longest running model,...
> It is, in many ways, the ideal traditional quad printer.
>Four inks, great density, and larger print sizes than the
>desktop models. It's a workhorse. ...

>Any good workflow with the Piezo driver, the Epson driver,
>or a RIP, will yield beautiful dotless prints from the 3000.

I generally agree with this.  However, every inkjet printer, by its nature,
has dots.  To me, it's a question of whether the dots or dither pattern are
visible or have any visible impact on the images.  I obviously have decided
that, at least for my type of printing, they do not.  However, these
printers are not perfect.

>This assumes a traditional quad ink set, not something
>like the MIS VM's, or color inks. If you see dots
>with quad prints, you need a better workflow.

Although in theory I think I could argue that the more gray shades of ink
the better, in practice there are greatly diminishing returns to more
different shades.  Note that the Piezo system only uses 4 shades even in the
hextone printers.  I didn't start to experiment with a variable-tone inkset
until Jon Cone expressed his opinion in a posting that only 3 shades are
really needed to make a smooth print, and I agree with this.

That said, it is true that some do see the bluish dots in the highlights of
the MIS VM neutral and cool prints done with quadtone printers (not
hextones).  I never felt they were a problem in actual prints and at normal
viewing distance with my 1160, but I suppose those who are more
dot-sensitive would be bothered by the bluish toner dots of the MIS VM
inkset in 3000 highlights.

I use the vm-sepia inkset in my 3000 for a number of reasons.  One is that
the neutral curve does not put any toner in the highlights, and it is the
color contrast of the toner dots that make them visible to some people.  The
ink that is in the vm-s neutral-tone highlights is just gray ink and has a
relative density of 38%, as opposed to the Piezo/FS lightest gray ink
density of 33%.  I don't beleive anyone can tell the difference between the
highlights printed with these two density inks.  Since my neutral landscape
prints are the most likely places where dots would be a problem, the vm-s
inkset gives me the variability without dots where they will most likely be
seen.

With the sepia or warmer tones, there is obviously toner in the highlights.
However, the toner dots have never been what I see as a limiting factor.  I
am not aware of them at all.  My sense is that the sepia toner dots are not
as visible as the bluish dots of the standard vm inkset.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Hi Ernst,

> > > The
> > > value is used to monitor the ink amount remaining in the ink
> > > cartridge.
> >
> > My driver doesn't use it, and the printer it self, as far as I can tell,
> > does not use the "Ink Consumption Counter" for anything...the lights are
> > controlled by the physical sensors.
>
> For the continuous warning light: yes! For blinking I think it uses the
> droplet counter. The sensor isn't sensuous enough for two steps.

Actually, it does use two sensors per ink, one low ink, and one empty.  On
p. 3-29 they show two physical sensors...one called "Ink Low Sensor" and one
called "Ink Cartridge Sensor", and the procedure for removing each one
individually.  Obviously, the one marked "Ink Low" is for, well, Ink Low,
and corresponds to the blinking light, as per p. 5-3.

> One way to
> detect that would be that sometimes there is very little time left between
> blinking and continuous and at other times it take ages to get to the
> continuous stage. The droplet counting is a coarse method. Anyone
> experienced that ?

I've run with a light blinking for many prints, and never got to solid
before replacing it...I don't want to run out of ink in the middle of a
print.

> > There aren't two levels on the 9000, like the 3000?  Blinking and solid?
>
> Don't believe so, long time ago. But then again the sensor knows
> only on or
> off. Blinking is a counting result.

As per the service manual for the 3000, I believe that blinking is simply
the "Low Ink" mechanical sensor that triggers it, no "counting".

> > > > For the 3000, the ink light on the printer is solely based on the
> status
> > > of
> > > > the two ink level sensors.  It either flashes when the ink
> low sensor
> is
> > > > triggered, and then stays on when the ink out sensor is triggered.
> > >
> > > The empty tab of the cart and the sensor for it isn't an analogue
> > > system but
> > > just an on/off switch (digital but 1 bit only ;-).
> >
> > Ernst, please, I know how it works, thanks.  And, by the way, it's
> actually
> > two signals, one for low and one for empty.
>
> Don't think so Austin.

Well, the service manual clearly shows it's two signals.  Look at the wiring
diagram and pinout for CN11, 12, 13 and 7...two active signals.  Now, it MAY
count from "Ink Low" to empty...but it appears, according to the service
manual, that the "Ink Low" is the mechanical trigger for blinking...when the
%5 is detected.  It, at least to me, wouldn't make sense to count to "low"
and use the sensor for "out", simply because the mechanical detection is far
more reliable than counting...

The service manual is somewhat contradictory, it calls the same sensor "Ink
low" and "Ink end", but does say that it triggers with %5 left...which to me
means low, not out.

Austin

----- Original Message -----

From: "Austin Franklin" <darkroom@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 3:34 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Epson 3000 opinions


> Ernst,
>
> > The 'ink cartridge sensor' checks whether a cart is inserted or not.
> > It doesn't tell you anything about the contents of that cart.
>
> That appears to be the case.
>
> > The 'empty' cart that you pull out (after the light becomes
> > continues) still
> > holds 20 ml ink = 5% left.
>
> Are you sure about that?  Not when it goes to blinking is %5 left?  Next
> time I get a blinking, I'll weigh the cartridge.  I've never gotten a
solid.

Yes, I'm sure.

Ernst

----- Original Message -----

From: "Austin Franklin" <darkroom@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 4:51 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Epson 3000 opinions


>
> > > > The 'empty' cart that you pull out (after the light becomes
> > > > continues) still
> > > > holds 20 ml ink = 5% left.
> > >
> > > Are you sure about that?  Not when it goes to blinking is %5 left?
Next
> > > time I get a blinking, I'll weigh the cartridge.  I've never gotten a
> > solid.
> >
> > Yes, I'm sure.
>
> Ernst,
>
> I'm still very skeptical.  Referencing the service manual for the 3000:
>
> 1) p. 5-3 states that blinking is triggered by the "Ink Low".
>
> 2) p. 3-29 shows that this "Ink Low" sensor works with the little plastic
> tab on the side of the cartridge.
>
> 3) p. 2-17 is states that, what they now call "Ink End", which I believe
is
> quite obvious they meant "Ink Low" (or no matter what they call it, it's
the
> same), as that's what they call this same sensor elsewhere, and the
> cartridge sensor is listed separately...that this sensor triggers at %5.
>
> 4) We know the printer doesn't stop printing at merely blinking...
>
> It also makes no sense to me from a design standpoint, that they would
rely
> on "counting" for the "Ink Low", and then simply use the mechanical sensor
> for "Ink Out"...since one is quite deterministic (mechanical), and the
other
> not so (counting).  It makes sense, at least to me, that the mechanical
> sensor is %5 and triggers blinking, and then counting begins...until the
ink
> is determined to be "out", then solid comes on, and printing can't
continue.

It is good thing we both do not have to interprete the bible. I'm reading
exactly the opposite. So far it is clear that droplet counting is done, at
least the status monitor relies on it, service warnings as well (waste pad),
and in my interpretation also the blinking lights. I know from experience
that empty carts still contain about 20 ml. And as an industrial designer by
education I think the design makes sense, the counting process isn't
reliable for 'real empty' warnings as users can insert carts that are not
full or when the printer isn't on they can insert full carts without
resetting the counter. The printer ignores any cart empty warnings based on
the counter, it continues to print. It only stops on the mechanically
triggered warnings 'cart empty' or 'no cart inserted', that way no ink lines
will ever get empty. The counter only serves two purposes: convenient
inklevel information in the status monitor and maintenance warnings (the
last counting total isn't influenced by cart exchanges, a reset by the
serviceman brings it back to zero).

BTW, the new 9600, 7600 totally rely on droplet counting. You should see the
complaints on the 9000 list
about ink left in the carts while the chips say 'empty'. Up to 50% of the
110 ml 7600 carts. Call it progress.

As this discussion will not bring a change in our printing habits I think it
is time for me to stop here. You can have the last word and I will read it.


Ernst

Ernst,

> The 'ink cartridge sensor' checks whether a cart is inserted or not.
> It doesn't tell you anything about the contents of that cart.

That appears to be the case.

> The 'empty' cart that you pull out (after the light becomes
> continues) still
> holds 20 ml ink = 5% left.

Are you sure about that?  Not when it goes to blinking is %5 left?  Next
time I get a blinking, I'll weigh the cartridge.  I've never gotten a solid.

Austin

> > > The 'empty' cart that you pull out (after the light becomes
> > > continues) still
> > > holds 20 ml ink = 5% left.
> >
> > Are you sure about that?  Not when it goes to blinking is %5 left?  Next
> > time I get a blinking, I'll weigh the cartridge.  I've never gotten a
> solid.
>
> Yes, I'm sure.

Ernst,

I'm still very skeptical.  Referencing the service manual for the 3000:

1) p. 5-3 states that blinking is triggered by the "Ink Low".

2) p. 3-29 shows that this "Ink Low" sensor works with the little plastic
tab on the side of the cartridge.

3) p. 2-17 is states that, what they now call "Ink End", which I believe is
quite obvious they meant "Ink Low" (or no matter what they call it, it's the
same), as that's what they call this same sensor elsewhere, and the
cartridge sensor is listed separately...that this sensor triggers at %5.

4) We know the printer doesn't stop printing at merely blinking...

It also makes no sense to me from a design standpoint, that they would rely
on "counting" for the "Ink Low", and then simply use the mechanical sensor
for "Ink Out"...since one is quite deterministic (mechanical), and the other
not so (counting).  It makes sense, at least to me, that the mechanical
sensor is %5 and triggers blinking, and then counting begins...until the ink
is determined to be "out", then solid comes on, and printing can't continue.

Regards,

Austin

Hi Ernst,

> So far it is clear that droplet counting is done, at
> least the status monitor relies on it, service warnings as well
> (waste pad),

The waste pad has never been in question, that I KNOW for a fact is a
counter.  It's what part of the status (low or out) relies on droplet
counting that is in question.

> I know from experience
> that empty carts still contain about 20 ml.

Empty, as determined by the printer stopping printing?  I've not gotten to
that point yet...

> And as an industrial
> designer by
> education I think the design makes sense, the counting process isn't
> reliable for 'real empty' warnings as users can insert carts that are not
> full or when the printer isn't on they can insert full carts without
> resetting the counter.

Well, as a mechanical and computer/electrical engineer, who has written
printer drivers, and designed quite a few pieces of electronics gear, I
believe that the mechanical sensor is best for "low", as it is completely
deterministic, and does not rely on a user inserting the cartridge in the
correct order, printer on/off or what.  Counting from the "low" indication
to "empty" does not have to be accurate at all.  This method would make it
so that the solid (empty) could not come on before blinking (low).  The
counting method to low would make it so that low might never even come on!
Now, I'm not saying it does it the way I am suggesting, and that you are
wrong, but I find that the method you believe has flaws.

> BTW, the new 9600, 7600 totally rely on droplet counting. You
> should see the
> complaints on the 9000 list
> about ink left in the carts while the chips say 'empty'. Up to 50% of the
> 110 ml 7600 carts. Call it progress.

Interesting.  How about the other printers that are chipped, is the
experience similar?

> As this discussion will not bring a change in our printing habits
> I think it
> is time for me to stop here. You can have the last word and I
> will read it.

I agree WRT how the 3000 works, as that horse is pretty dead, but I
certainly would like it if you would mind answering my questions above...

Regards,

Austin