Digital BW, The Print

Just got in the latest batch of prints from the August exchange. It 
was difficult for me to evaluate and critique the prints as I am not 
an expert on technical skills, I just know what I like. Most of my 
posts are questions, as this is, because the skill set on this list 
for those who post often is far more technically advanced than mine. 
I wonder, how do you judge a print? What is a perfect print to you? 
What criteria do you use? Do you have a certain method?  For those 
that don't post and just listen, you have a voice too. What is a 
perfect print to you? I think technical merit is important, but I 
think it goes beyond that. Thanks for sharing.

Barry Gilliand

What is a 
> perfect print to you? I think technical merit is important, but I 
> think it goes beyond that. Thanks for sharing.
> 
> Barry Gilliand

i have never spoken here   i am not a photographer, though i use photography    i am a painter, printer etc      trust YOUR instinct and what you think is good    this 
discussion and others get bogged down in technical things    the final criteria is your own judgement   and all of ours differ     LOOK  and feel and judge   JUST 
YOU     i printed a landscape i took with my Dimage 7 on my Epson 900 and on epson 3000    with my naked myopic eye i can see the 3000 is sharper and better but 
the 900 is the better aesthetic thing    so just keep what YOU like in the forefront   (for all those experts who will crucify me, i have taught art and been an artist for 
many years, i had two very prestigious foundation grants   i STILL SAY trust your own instincts and what you think is best   and know that it will not agree with 
everyone and sometimes not with anyone    the ticket is the enjoying of seeing and the feeling    we are not in this for the money, even if we need it   have fun wuth it) 

and, oh i forgot, there IS NO PERFECT!   so why not just live it    jno

Barry,
 
My level of proficiency in digital is probably similar to yours, and I
couldn't tell a Piezo print from a pizza print.  However, I'd imagine,
just like any other photos, you can tell if there are defects in an
image; stuff like contrast control, brightness, intensity of color
(blacks), and more mechanical problems, like banding or off-colors.  
 
There is also the matter of aesthetics to consider.  Does an image do
anything for you.  Try to look at images that you like or do not like
and figure out what affects you.  
 
Karl Wolz

-----Original Message-----
From: bggilliand2001 [mailto:bgilliand@...] 
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:32 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] The perfect print
 
Just got in the latest batch of prints from the August exchange. It 
was difficult for me to evaluate and critique the prints as I am not 
an expert on technical skills, I just know what I like. Most of my 
posts are questions, as this is, because the skill set on this list 
for those who post often is far more technically advanced than mine. 
I wonder, how do you judge a print? What is a perfect print to you? 
What criteria do you use? Do you have a certain method?  For those 
that don't post and just listen, you have a voice too. What is a 
perfect print to you? I think technical merit is important, but I 
think it goes beyond that. Thanks for sharing.

Barry Gilliand





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oh, the other Barry

bgs
----- Original Message -----
From: "Karl Wolz" <wolzphoto@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 2:28 AM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] The perfect print


> Barry,
>
> My level of proficiency in digital is probably similar to yours, and I
> couldn't tell a Piezo print from a pizza print.  However, I'd imagine,
> just like any other photos, you can tell if there are defects in an
> image; stuff like contrast control, brightness, intensity of color
> (blacks), and more mechanical problems, like banding or off-colors.
>
> There is also the matter of aesthetics to consider.  Does an image do
> anything for you.  Try to look at images that you like or do not like
> and figure out what affects you.
>
> Karl Wolz
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bggilliand2001 [mailto:bgilliand@...]
> Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:32 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] The perfect print
>
> Just got in the latest batch of prints from the August exchange. It
> was difficult for me to evaluate and critique the prints as I am not
> an expert on technical skills, I just know what I like. Most of my
> posts are questions, as this is, because the skill set on this list
> for those who post often is far more technically advanced than mine.
> I wonder, how do you judge a print? What is a perfect print to you?
> What criteria do you use? Do you have a certain method?  For those
> that don't post and just listen, you have a voice too. What is a
> perfect print to you? I think technical merit is important, but I
> think it goes beyond that. Thanks for sharing.
>
> Barry Gilliand
>
>
>
>
>
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> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
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Barry: In the annual Colo. Press Awards event, judges were supposed to 
evaluate photos accordingly: attention-getting; tells a story; composition; 
photographer's enterprise; clarity as printed. (The last criterion suggests 
the frustrating reality of the beating photos take in surviving a press run.) 
The first two criteria, if I remember correctly, counted for at least sixty 
percent. (A judge once said of a particular photo -alas, not one of mine - 
'I'd stop running from a burning building to look at this picture!') I think 
these standards are useful in any photographer's perception warehouse. Of 
course, what you find personally pleasing is important. But as you linger 
over a print, you want to know why it moves you. Another idea is to describe 
to yourself what you see. As you do so, you might find yourself noticing new 
dimensions in the photo, and over time you might find yourself a better seer. 
All for now. Good thoughts, Carol


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Barry,

Here's a list of things that make a print as "perfect" to me as it can
be. A lot of them are little things, but when added up they can make a
HUGE difference between an extremely good print and an average one. I
assumed you meant technical things, not artistic things that make a good
print... These would be from a photographer's point of view, but
probably not an artists.

1. Horizons should be absolutely straight, especially if the scene is a
seascape. Even a 1/16th of an inch tilt is not acceptable to me.

2. A good print is very slightly darker at the edges than in the rest of
the print.

3. There should be no evidence whatever of "Spotting" dust or scratches.

4. Buildings should NEVER lean over, and their verticals should always
be exactly even with the edges of the print.  Only an amateur
photographer would ever present a picture to be judged with a building
that was leaning backwards.

5. In most cases, but with certain exceptions, a print should have a
deep black, a paper white, and a full range of grays.  A Very low or
high key print are exceptions.  There may be others, but not many.

6. A print shouldn't have its brightest or lightest part running off the
paper. The eyes always go to the brightest part of the print first, and
it shouldn't be at the edge of the paper.

7. It is probably best in MOST cases that the center of interest not be
dead center in the image. Again, there are exceptions to this.  

8. The quality of the paper the image is printed on is important. For a
terrific print that you is going to an exhibition, you should print it
on a quality paper. Thicker papers are generally better, but again there
are always exceptions. Japanese papers are beautiful, but most of them
are very thin.

9. There are many other little things that I think would improve a
print, but they are only personal choices, and some people would really
disagree with me, such as I prefer NEVER to see grain in a sky. Some
people love grain, but I don't.

10. A landscape framed by an out of focus foreground or a tree branch
coming into the picture from the side doesn't improve the picture, only
detracts from it, in 
my humble opinion. Others might like it.

These are some of the rules we were taught at Brooks Institute of
Photography, and I think most of them were right on the money. 

There are some photographers who would delight in breaking every one of
these "rules". They would probably apply less to street photographers
and photo journalists.

Hope this helps a little, anyhoo.

Jerry



bggilliand2001 wrote:

> 
> Just got in the latest batch of prints from the August exchange. It
> was difficult for me to evaluate and critique the prints as I am not
> an expert on technical skills, I just know what I like. Most of my
> posts are questions, as this is, because the skill set on this list
> for those who post often is far more technically advanced than mine.
> I wonder, how do you judge a print? What is a perfect print to you?
> What criteria do you use? Do you have a certain method?  For those
> that don't post and just listen, you have a voice too. What is a
> perfect print to you? I think technical merit is important, but I
> think it goes beyond that. Thanks for sharing.
> 
> Barry Gilliand
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> These are some of the rules we were taught at Brooks Institute of
> Photography, and I think most of them were right on the money.

After reading your post, I now have visions of fresh Brooks grads running
around with their laminated cards listing the Brooks 10 commandments,
ticking off each item on the checklist before every exposure.

> There are some photographers who would delight in breaking every one of
> these "rules".

For me and many others, photography is often a "stream of conciousness"
thing. It's more right-brain emotional than left-brain intellectual. Space
and time disappear during the creative process. I couldn't imagine trying to
work with a set of rules.

Oh, come on. The person asked for a set of rules and Jerry was kind
enough to give him some. They were basically the same rules of printing
I was taught when I learned to print and I'm sure a lot of other people
on this list. He DID say that they were rules for a PRINT, not a work of
art, per se.  

Barbara white

Moreno Polloni wrote:

> 
> After reading your post, I now have visions of fresh Brooks grads running
> around with their laminated cards listing the Brooks 10 commandments,
> ticking off each item on the checklist before every exposure.

> For me and many others, photography is often a "stream of conciousness"
> thing. It's more right-brain emotional than left-brain intellectual. Space
> and time disappear during the creative process. I couldn't imagine trying to
> work with a set of rules.

Barbara White Architectural Photography
http://www.barbarawhitephoto.com

> Oh, come on. The person asked for a set of rules and Jerry was kind
> enough to give him some. They were basically the same rules of printing
> I was taught when I learned to print and I'm sure a lot of other people
> on this list. He DID say that they were rules for a PRINT, not a work of
> art, per se.  

Oops! My apologies. I should have read the original post.

Moreno, he asked what makes a good print, and technically if he followed
these rules, he'd have a pretty nice print. You can always break the
rules if you want. 

Jerry



Moreno Polloni wrote:

> 
> > These are some of the rules we were taught at Brooks Institute of
> > Photography, and I think most of them were right on the money.
> 
> After reading your post, I now have visions of fresh Brooks grads running
> around with their laminated cards listing the Brooks 10 commandments,
> ticking off each item on the checklist before every exposure.
> 
> > There are some photographers who would delight in breaking every one of
> > these "rules".
> 
> For me and many others, photography is often a "stream of conciousness"
> thing. It's more right-brain emotional than left-brain intellectual. Space
> and time disappear during the creative process. I couldn't imagine trying to
> work with a set of rules.
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> Moreno, he asked what makes a good print, and technically if he followed
> these rules, he'd have a pretty nice print. You can always break the
> rules if you want.

You're right Jerry. My apologies; I didn't read the post you were responding
to.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Moreno, he asked what makes a good print, and technically if he 
followed
> these rules, he'd have a pretty nice print. You can always break the
> rules if you want. 
> 
> Jerry
> 

Jerry-

Those sound like pretty good "rules" to me, too...adding that you can 
only "break" them if you know them and understand them and then break 
them for a reason.

It seems there is more "bashing" of the technical side of photography 
overpowering the artistic side in the digital forums...only natural, 
I guess, since digital photography is pretty impressive technology.

But I have always believed also, that you can only get free from the 
technical part of photography (film or digital) by knowing the 
technology and equipment limits so well that you were able to use the 
tools instinctively and intuitively as opposed to the photographer 
who really has not put in the time to "know all there is to know" 
about the technology and is therefore more of a slave to it (and the 
manuals).

The great thing about this particular forum is that there is a 
sporadic intense thread that nurtures one or the other (or both) 
concepts...that go into the making of the ART. It really doesn't 
matter which side motivates you to start the process...you need BOTH 
to really complete it.

Your work is a great example of "out of the box" thinking and 
creativity that is possible only because of your immaculate 
preparation on the technology side... Keep it coming.

Tom O'Connell

Jerry,
 
One of the things I've observed over the years is that if you're going
to break rules - say, for instance the horizon thing, don't just dent
it, but rather, fracture it and make the horizon off by 30 degrees or
so.  That way it's pretty obvious that you are making a statement.  You
are not bound by trivial "rules", but dance to the beat of a different
accordionist!
 
Karl Wolz

-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...] 
Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 8:58 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] The perfect print
 
Hi Barry,

Here's a list of things that make a print as "perfect" to me as it can
be. A lot of them are little things, but when added up they can make a
HUGE difference between an extremely good print and an average one. I
assumed you meant technical things, not artistic things that make a good
print... These would be from a photographer's point of view, but
probably not an artists.

1. Horizons should be absolutely straight, especially if the scene is a
seascape. Even a 1/16th of an inch tilt is not acceptable to me.

2. A good print is very slightly darker at the edges than in the rest of
the print.

3. There should be no evidence whatever of "Spotting" dust or scratches.

4. Buildings should NEVER lean over, and their verticals should always
be exactly even with the edges of the print.  Only an amateur
photographer would ever present a picture to be judged with a building
that was leaning backwards.

5. In most cases, but with certain exceptions, a print should have a
deep black, a paper white, and a full range of grays.  A Very low or
high key print are exceptions.  There may be others, but not many.

6. A print shouldn't have its brightest or lightest part running off the
paper. The eyes always go to the brightest part of the print first, and
it shouldn't be at the edge of the paper.

7. It is probably best in MOST cases that the center of interest not be
dead center in the image. Again, there are exceptions to this.  

8. The quality of the paper the image is printed on is important. For a
terrific print that you is going to an exhibition, you should print it
on a quality paper. Thicker papers are generally better, but again there
are always exceptions. Japanese papers are beautiful, but most of them
are very thin.

9. There are many other little things that I think would improve a
print, but they are only personal choices, and some people would really
disagree with me, such as I prefer NEVER to see grain in a sky. Some
people love grain, but I don't.

10. A landscape framed by an out of focus foreground or a tree branch
coming into the picture from the side doesn't improve the picture, only
detracts from it, in 
my humble opinion. Others might like it.

These are some of the rules we were taught at Brooks Institute of
Photography, and I think most of them were right on the money. 

There are some photographers who would delight in breaking every one of
these "rules". They would probably apply less to street photographers
and photo journalists.

Hope this helps a little, anyhoo.

Jerry



bggilliand2001 wrote:
> 
> Just got in the latest batch of prints from the August exchange. It
> was difficult for me to evaluate and critique the prints as I am not
> an expert on technical skills, I just know what I like. Most of my
> posts are questions, as this is, because the skill set on this list
> for those who post often is far more technically advanced than mine.
> I wonder, how do you judge a print? What is a perfect print to you?
> What criteria do you use? Do you have a certain method?  For those
> that don't post and just listen, you have a voice too. What is a
> perfect print to you? I think technical merit is important, but I
> think it goes beyond that. Thanks for sharing.
> 
> Barry Gilliand
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish
to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this
same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

But you DO work with a set of rules (some try to avoid being pigeonhole
into rule-following by calling them "guidelines", etc.).  They may be
rather subconscious, but when you view a potential image, you try to
achieve a sort of balance that pleases you.  You look for symmetry - or
maybe a bit of tension.  You know how you want your potential image to
be exposed, etc.  These and others are your rules, and it is your
decision as to whether to break them.
 
Karl Wolz
 
 I couldn't imagine trying to work with a set of rules.






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oh I know that! that would be very obvious what he is trying to do.  But
if I see an image, say of a lake or an ocean and the horizon is off by
say 1/4th of an inch, and other than that the picture is really nice, it
just drives me nuts. You see this ALL the time in advertising, and in
photography magazines. It is a pet peeve of mine, and the nicer the
picture is, the more it drives me nuts. Why would the photographer do
this? If it was 30 degrees, you KNOW it was on purpose, but if it was
just a tiny bit.... Arrgh!

Karl Wolz wrote:

> 
> Jerry,
> 
> One of the things I've observed over the years is that if you're going
> to break rules - say, for instance the horizon thing, don't just dent
> it, but rather, fracture it and make the horizon off by 30 degrees or
> so.  That way it's pretty obvious that you are making a statement.  You
> are not bound by trivial "rules", but dance to the beat of a different
> accordionist!
> 
> Karl Wolz
>

But what do you do when you see a beautiful pictorial image with a very
obvious rule that was broken? Suppose you had a very smooth gray sky,
but the right corner was much too light. You KNOW it's supposed to be
uniform across the print, but there it is... the corner is a full stop
lighter than the rest of the sky. It would make a beautiful picture a
very average one, and you'd wonder why it wasn't even. You'd ask why in
the world the prints maker didn't burn it in.

Jerry

Karl Wolz wrote:

> 
> But you DO work with a set of rules (some try to avoid being pigeonhole
> into rule-following by calling them "guidelines", etc.).  They may be
> rather subconscious, but when you view a potential image, you try to
> achieve a sort of balance that pleases you.  You look for symmetry - or
> maybe a bit of tension.  You know how you want your potential image to
> be exposed, etc.  These and others are your rules, and it is your
> decision as to whether to break them.
> 
> Karl Wolz
> 
>  I couldn't imagine trying to work with a set of rules.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> 
> ADVERTISEMENT
> 
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All,

If you have the PERFECT print, I'm assuming it is art, according to 
your's or the viewer's interpretation. Obvious defects may sometimes 
be a way to focus attention and add to the impact of the image. When 
you judge a print, more on technical merit than on the aesthetic, 
what are you looking for? Several posts have been helpful, such as 
this: 

But what do you do when you see a beautiful pictorial image with a 
very
obvious rule that was broken? Suppose you had a very smooth gray sky,
but the right corner was much too light. You KNOW it's supposed to be
uniform across the print, but there it is... the corner is a full stop
lighter than the rest of the sky. It would make a beautiful picture a
very average one, and you'd wonder why it wasn't even. You'd ask why 
in
the world the prints maker didn't burn it in.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Karl Wolz" <wolzphoto@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 5:05 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] The perfect print


> But you DO work with a set of rules (some try to avoid being pigeonhole
> into rule-following by calling them "guidelines", etc.).  They may be
> rather subconscious, but when you view a potential image, you try to
> achieve a sort of balance that pleases you.  You look for symmetry - or
> maybe a bit of tension.  You know how you want your potential image to
> be exposed, etc.  These and others are your rules, and it is your
> decision as to whether to break them.
>
> Karl Wolz
>
>  I couldn't imagine trying to work with a set of rules.
>
Karl,

Me either. I made a decision in my youth to never take any photography or
art classes and I held to that until recent years when I took some workshops
to meet  photographers I admired. My thought was that I wanted my vision to
develop on its own. I used technical books and magazines to help me in the
craft side and I looked at a lot of B&W photos in books and galleries for
inspiration. I refused to read anything on composition or art history. In
retrospect I don't know if this was the best choice and I do not advocate
it. I have missed a lot but I am not unhappy with where my solo search has
lead me. No doubt I have my own standards but they get applied on a
subconscious level.

In all honesty though, most of my stuff would fall within Jerry's rules.

In the end the one thing that I think is essential is to try to please
yourself. If you don't please yourself, you are not likely to please anyone
else, and you need to consider why you are making photographs.

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

That might be true but why not use your imagination and put, maybe, an apple
in the sky or anything you want if you think the sky needs a change. Man Ray
put screw in the stem area of an apple. Makes one think a little more about
the what he really is saying and it does separate this photo from the
mundane.  bgs
----- Original Message -----
From: "bggilliand2001" <bgilliand@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 12:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] The perfect print


>
> All,
>
> If you have the PERFECT print, I'm assuming it is art, according to
> your's or the viewer's interpretation. Obvious defects may sometimes
> be a way to focus attention and add to the impact of the image. When
> you judge a print, more on technical merit than on the aesthetic,
> what are you looking for? Several posts have been helpful, such as
> this:
>
> But what do you do when you see a beautiful pictorial image with a
> very
> obvious rule that was broken? Suppose you had a very smooth gray sky,
> but the right corner was much too light. You KNOW it's supposed to be
> uniform across the print, but there it is... the corner is a full stop
> lighter than the rest of the sky. It would make a beautiful picture a
> very average one, and you'd wonder why it wasn't even. You'd ask why
> in
> the world the prints maker didn't burn it in.
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
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>

Agreed. Then the Artist in you comes out. But if you have a half inch
hair in the middle of an otherwise great image, I'm sorry, but it just
does not belong there, and I will fault the artist for not knowing or
caring enough about his craft to remove it.

jerry

bgs wrote:

> 
> That might be true but why not use your imagination and put, maybe, an apple
> in the sky or anything you want if you think the sky needs a change. Man Ray
> put screw in the stem area of an apple. Makes one think a little more about
> the what he really is saying and it does separate this photo from the
> mundane.  bgs
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "bggilliand2001" <bgilliand@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 12:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] The perfect print
> 
> >
> > All,
> >
> > If you have the PERFECT print, I'm assuming it is art, according to
> > your's or the viewer's interpretation. Obvious defects may sometimes
> > be a way to focus attention and add to the impact of the image. When
> > you judge a print, more on technical merit than on the aesthetic,
> > what are you looking for? Several posts have been helpful, such as
> > this:
> >
> > But what do you do when you see a beautiful pictorial image with a
> > very
> > obvious rule that was broken? Suppose you had a very smooth gray sky,
> > but the right corner was much too light. You KNOW it's supposed to be
> > uniform across the print, but there it is... the corner is a full stop
> > lighter than the rest of the sky. It would make a beautiful picture a
> > very average one, and you'd wonder why it wasn't even. You'd ask why
> > in
> > the world the prints maker didn't burn it in.
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> >
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> >
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
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And I agree to that. Sloppy work is not acceptable. It is disrespect to your
own work and the art.

Barry Schafer
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] The perfect print


> Agreed. Then the Artist in you comes out. But if you have a half inch
> hair in the middle of an otherwise great image, I'm sorry, but it just
> does not belong there, and I will fault the artist for not knowing or
> caring enough about his craft to remove it.
>
> jerry
>
> bgs wrote:
> >
> > That might be true but why not use your imagination and put, maybe, an
apple
> > in the sky or anything you want if you think the sky needs a change. Man
Ray
> > put screw in the stem area of an apple. Makes one think a little more
about
> > the what he really is saying and it does separate this photo from the
> > mundane.  bgs
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "bggilliand2001" <bgilliand@...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 12:02 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] The perfect print
> >
> > >
> > > All,
> > >
> > > If you have the PERFECT print, I'm assuming it is art, according to
> > > your's or the viewer's interpretation. Obvious defects may sometimes
> > > be a way to focus attention and add to the impact of the image. When
> > > you judge a print, more on technical merit than on the aesthetic,
> > > what are you looking for? Several posts have been helpful, such as
> > > this:
> > >
> > > But what do you do when you see a beautiful pictorial image with a
> > > very
> > > obvious rule that was broken? Suppose you had a very smooth gray sky,
> > > but the right corner was much too light. You KNOW it's supposed to be
> > > uniform across the print, but there it is... the corner is a full stop
> > > lighter than the rest of the sky. It would make a beautiful picture a
> > > very average one, and you'd wonder why it wasn't even. You'd ask why
> > > in
> > > the world the prints maker didn't burn it in.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
and
> > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish
to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this
same
> > page.
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
> > them short.
> > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
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unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
> >
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>
>
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>
>

Excellent Jerry, I would add:
11. No to white skys
Renan Lopes

Jerry Olson wrote:

> Hi Barry,
>
> Here's a list of things that make a print as "perfect" to me as it can
> be. A lot of them are little things, but when added up they can make a
> HUGE difference between an extremely good print and an average one. I
> assumed you meant technical things, not artistic things that make a good
> print... These would be from a photographer's point of view, but
> probably not an artists.
>
> 1. Horizons should be absolutely straight, especially if the scene is a
> seascape. Even a 1/16th of an inch tilt is not acceptable to me.
>
> 2. A good print is very slightly darker at the edges than in the rest of
> the print.
>
> 3. There should be no evidence whatever of "Spotting" dust or scratches.
>
> 4. Buildings should NEVER lean over, and their verticals should always
> be exactly even with the edges of the print.  Only an amateur
> photographer would ever present a picture to be judged with a building
> that was leaning backwards.
>
> 5. In most cases, but with certain exceptions, a print should have a
> deep black, a paper white, and a full range of grays.  A Very low or
> high key print are exceptions.  There may be others, but not many.
>
> 6. A print shouldn't have its brightest or lightest part running off the
> paper. The eyes always go to the brightest part of the print first, and
> it shouldn't be at the edge of the paper.
>
> 7. It is probably best in MOST cases that the center of interest not be
> dead center in the image. Again, there are exceptions to this.
>
> 8. The quality of the paper the image is printed on is important. For a
> terrific print that you is going to an exhibition, you should print it
> on a quality paper. Thicker papers are generally better, but again there
> are always exceptions. Japanese papers are beautiful, but most of them
> are very thin.
>
> 9. There are many other little things that I think would improve a
> print, but they are only personal choices, and some people would really
> disagree with me, such as I prefer NEVER to see grain in a sky. Some
> people love grain, but I don't.
>
> 10. A landscape framed by an out of focus foreground or a tree branch
> coming into the picture from the side doesn't improve the picture, only
> detracts from it, in
> my humble opinion. Others might like it.
>
> These are some of the rules we were taught at Brooks Institute of
> Photography, and I think most of them were right on the money.
>
> There are some photographers who would delight in breaking every one of
> these "rules". They would probably apply less to street photographers
> and photo journalists.
>
> Hope this helps a little, anyhoo.
>
> Jerry

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Renan Lopes" <renanlopes@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] The perfect print


> Excellent Jerry, I would add:
> 11. No to white skys
> Renan Lopes

Renan,

Go take a look at Michael Kenna's "Le Notres Gardens".

Martin Wesley

(snip)

Hi Martin,
I don't have this book. I'll try it at Amazon,  I could see on the cover He burns in white skies. Am I wrong? Would you know a site where a I can see more
pictures of him?
Renan Lopes

> Renan,
>
> Go take a look at Michael Kenna's "Le Notres Gardens".
>
> Martin Wesley
>
> (snip)

Sunday, September 1, 2002, 9:33:01 AM, Renan Lopes wrote:

RL> Hi Martin,
RL> I don't have this book. I'll try it at Amazon,  I could see on the cover He burns in white skies. Am I wrong? Would you know a site where a I can see more
RL> pictures of him?
RL> Renan Lopes


Renan, go here:

<http://www.michaelkenna.net/html/newwork/index.html>

and here's one of my latest imitations of him that I took last week:

<http://www.contaxg.com/document.php?id=6659&full=1>

Best regards,
 Richard  

mailto:richard@...

Hi Renan,

Check out:

http://www.michaelkenna.net/html/index2.html

Yes he does burn them down to below paper white but many of his images would
be what people think of as "white skies". Some how he manages to get away
with it where most of us don't.

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message -----
From: "Renan Lopes" <renanlopes@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] The perfect print


> Hi Martin,
> I don't have this book. I'll try it at Amazon,  I could see on the cover
He burns in white skies. Am I wrong? Would you know a site where a I can see
more
> pictures of him?
> Renan Lopes
>
>
> > Renan,
> >
> > Go take a look at Michael Kenna's "Le Notres Gardens".
> >
> > Martin Wesley
> >
> > (snip)
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
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>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Martin,

Thanks for the link, that is a perfect print.

Barry Gilliand

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> Hi Renan,
> 
> Check out:
> 
> http://www.michaelkenna.net/html/index2.html
> 
> Yes he does burn them down to below paper white but many of his 
images would
> be what people think of as "white skies". Some how he manages to 
get away
> with it where most of us don't.
> 
> Martin Wesley
> 
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Renan Lopes" <renanlopes@u...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 9:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] The perfect print
> 
> 
> > Hi Martin,
> > I don't have this book. I'll try it at Amazon,  I could see on 
the cover
> He burns in white skies. Am I wrong? Would you know a site where a 
I can see
> more
> > pictures of him?
> > Renan Lopes
> >
> >
> > > Renan,
> > >
> > > Go take a look at Michael Kenna's "Le Notres Gardens".
> > >
> > > Martin Wesley
> > >
> > > (snip)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> page.
> >
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> >
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> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> >
> >
> >

Thanks Martin and Richard it is a great site with great pictures.
Renan

> > Hi Renan,
> >
> > Check out:
> >
> > http://www.michaelkenna.net/html/index2.html
>

Has anyone had any success reproducing the look of old cyanotypes?

If I were to try to mix up an ink-set, how would I go about it?  What
workflow would be most appropriate?

Ideally, I'd like to use a variation of the VM inks and curves.

Thanks for any ideas.

Bill Morse
PhotoProspect
Cambridge, MA 02139