Digital BW, The Print

Todd,

You wrote:

>I'm using the MIS VT for the first time tonight in my 1160. As you may
>recall I've been using the VP3 setup until now (for those who may care, the
>VP3 curves were for use with a Piezo/Generations ink blend, with a similar
>workflow to the MIS VT).

>I'm finding files which I tweaked for VP3, print muddy with the MIS VT if
>left unaltered. Is this to be expected? I'm finding I don't get as good a
>screen to print match with the VT as I did with the VP3, in that the file
>now requires more contrast to look right in print.

The MIS VM/VT variable-tone inkset takes somewhat different curves than the
VP3 inkset did.  Even though the inks are very close to the same densities,
the colors of the inks are slightly different.  However, with the right
curves, the results are very similar.  The same standards in terms of g/s
contrast were used for making the curves, so the grayscale file should print
at the same contrast as before.  I'm not sure I can tell which prints are
done with which inkset for those g/s files that I've printed with both.

So, since I save only the g/s file, I find I the prints done with the two
systems essentially interchangeable.

The exception to this is files that I did as split-tones and saved as RGB
files.  For these, I went back to the g/s file and re-did the split-toning
with the new curves designed for the MIS VM/VT inkset.  I

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

> So, since I save only the g/s file, I find I the prints done with the two
> systems essentially interchangeable.

Thanks Paul. With that I'll investigate further to see where I may be
messing things up.

Todd

Todd, I do notice the VP3 files and the VT files look different on the screen. You have to make them a bit contrastier and lighter with the
new inks. But then I have a 4 ink printer for the VP3 and a 6 ink printer for the New inks, so that may make a difference too.

I would think you could make a curve to make them equal and save it and load it just before printing.

Jerry

How do you like the cool or neutral cool curve Todd?

>




> I'm finding files which I tweaked for VP3, print muddy with the MIS VT if
> left unaltered. Is this to be expected? I'm finding I don't get as good a
> screen to print match with the VT as I did with the VP3, in that the file
> now requires more contrast to look right in print. I haven't done extensive
> testing yet, as I thought I should check to see if this is to be expected.
>
> Did you guys find this to be the case?  Did you find that files which were
> properly adjusted for the VP3 fell right into place with the VT using the
> quads in an 1160? Which method gave the better screen (before Paul's curves)
> to print match?
>
> It's not so far off that I can't compensate, but if this behavior isn't to
> be expected, I'll mess with my workflow before messing with all my files. I
> should probably explore that option in either case.
>
> Maybe just using the contrast slider?....
>
> Thanks,
> Todd
>
> I'm using an 1160 printer, BTW.
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
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Jerry

What you wrote coincides with my experience, even though I'm using the same
1160 for both (I bought new cartridges and switched over entirely, so I
can't side by side them, I'm comparing the new VT prints to older VP3
prints), but I need my file to look lighter and contrastier for my VT prints
than my file which was right for VP3. I'm doing as you suggest, just making
a separate luminosity curve that I will add to the files when I apply the VT
curve. I wonder if we experience this more than Paul cause we are on Macs
and he's on a PC. Oh wait a minute, your on a different printer and curves
too, never mind, too many variables.

As for color, too early to say, I've made too few VT prints as yet. What I'm
noticing is the blacks with the MIS inks seem to start out warmer (redder?)
than the Piezo, until the inks dry. Late last night, while I was doing my
first tests, this had me think I wasn't getting prints as cold as my VP3 mix
(which I may have inadvertently mixed rather cool to begin with - I'm not
very good with the syringe ;-)), but now that they are dry, and I'm viewing
them in daylight, they are as cool. Though I still feel like I perceive a
touch more red in the blacks of the MIS, but it is in no way objectionable.
Do you see that too? Anyway, I'll print more today to get a better feel for
things. This is really only when I hold prints side by side for scrutinious
comparisons.

Over all I think I like it just fine, just have to get in the flow...

Oh, one thing about color. With both the VT and VP3, I find a print that
looks neutral in tungsten will be rather cool in daylight. I don't know if
this is metamerism, as it follows the natural color of the light sources,
but it does make critical judgements about color difficult. You like your
prints cooler than I do, so I'll probably stay one curve warmer than you do.
Do you find the MIS inks dry down cooler than they look when fresh?

Todd

> Todd, I do notice the VP3 files and the VT files look different on the screen.
> You have to make them a bit contrastier and lighter with the
> new inks. But then I have a 4 ink printer for the VP3 and a 6 ink printer for
> the New inks, so that may make a difference too.
> 
> I would think you could make a curve to make them equal and save it and load
> it just before printing.
> 
> Jerry
> 
> How do you like the cool or neutral cool curve Todd?
> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> I'm finding files which I tweaked for VP3, print muddy with the MIS VT if
>> left unaltered. Is this to be expected? I'm finding I don't get as good a
>> screen to print match with the VT as I did with the VP3, in that the file
>> now requires more contrast to look right in print. I haven't done extensive
>> testing yet, as I thought I should check to see if this is to be expected.
>> 
>> Did you guys find this to be the case?  Did you find that files which were
>> properly adjusted for the VP3 fell right into place with the VT using the
>> quads in an 1160? Which method gave the better screen (before Paul's curves)
>> to print match?
>> 
>> It's not so far off that I can't compensate, but if this behavior isn't to
>> be expected, I'll mess with my workflow before messing with all my files. I
>> should probably explore that option in either case.
>> 
>> Maybe just using the contrast slider?....
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Todd
>> 
>> I'm using an 1160 printer, BTW.
>> 
>> 
>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
>> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>> 
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

> Snippy snippy...

Todd, I don't think I see any red in the blacks!

When wet, the prints seem just a TAD lighter than when dry, but not much.

For printing the good stuff, I prefer to judge the prints in diffuse daylight. They don't look bad at night either, but how bright are your
tungsten lights? They have different temperatures. Low wattage lights are much warmer than, say, 200 watters, which is all I have in my
home. Fluorescent tubes have too many variations to even think about, your eyes will itch!

Paul just sent me another curve set, so we aren't in the final version yet. But I don't think the actual colors will change much from here
on out.

> Over all I think I like it just fine, just have to get in the flow...

I'm sure you'll love it when you get used to it.

Still wandering about the Epson Archival paper. I've never seen a green on it. And don't most people who DO see a green shift use piezo
inks? Maybe it's the paper AND the ink together that cause it. Or maybe its just a bad batch of ink. Or Gawd help us all, the ozone turns
pigments green and dyes orange? I don't even want to think about it. (No ozone problems in N. Dakota).

The blacks on the Epson Archival are still pretty impressive for the low cost of this paper. And with Paul's cool curve, It didn't shift in
nearly 3 months in a South window.  The blue in the ink probably prevented it from noticeably shifting towards brown.

>
> Oh, one thing about color. With both the VT and VP3, I find a print that
> looks neutral in tungsten will be rather cool in daylight. I don't know if
> this is metamerism.

You know, most magazine ads don't look identical in different lighting sources either. Neither do my acrylic paintings, but they are so
close, I just gotta ask, who cares? BOY we're picking nits here.  In warm light, I just think it's natural to see colors just a hair warmer.



> as it follows the natural color of the light sources,
> but it does make critical judgements about color difficult. You like your
> prints cooler than I do, so I'll probably stay one curve warmer than you do.
> Do you find the MIS inks dry down cooler than they look when fresh?

Not cooler, but a tiny bit darker, with more tonal separation in the shadows.

Remember you can also move the epson slider to get a tone BETWEEN the curves!

Jerry

Thanks Jerry,

I just made a couple of prints and the blacks don't seem reddish to me
today. I've got to stop working with this stuff in the wee hours of the
morning, when I have no good judgement at all. ;-)

I'm very happy to have a very workable system, and at the price of these
inks I can afford to mess around.

Todd

PS, speaking of papers, you tried the NEW Somerset Photo Enhanced, right? I
think I remember you saying it felt flimsy, but how was it's surface and
image? I'm still looking for something like a smooth Torchon. Not as smooth
as EAM, but less tooth than Orwell, or Torchon, but better blacks than
Museo. I know, so are a lot of people. LPM is too cool for me, and a bit too
smooth. I'll try the Brightcube papers now. They didn't perform well for me
with the VP3, because they don't seem to work well with Piezo inks (not with
out a special curve or profile anyway) but I hear good things about it with
MIS inks...

>> Snippy snippy...
> 
> Todd, I don't think I see any red in the blacks!
> 
> When wet, the prints seem just a TAD lighter than when dry, but not much.
> 
> For printing the good stuff, I prefer to judge the prints in diffuse daylight.
> They don't look bad at night either, but how bright are your
> tungsten lights? They have different temperatures. Low wattage lights are much
> warmer than, say, 200 watters, which is all I have in my
> home. Fluorescent tubes have too many variations to even think about, your
> eyes will itch!
> 
> Paul just sent me another curve set, so we aren't in the final version yet.
> But I don't think the actual colors will change much from here
> on out.
> 
>> Over all I think I like it just fine, just have to get in the flow...
> 
> I'm sure you'll love it when you get used to it.
> 
> Still wandering about the Epson Archival paper. I've never seen a green on it.
> And don't most people who DO see a green shift use piezo
> inks? Maybe it's the paper AND the ink together that cause it. Or maybe its
> just a bad batch of ink. Or Gawd help us all, the ozone turns
> pigments green and dyes orange? I don't even want to think about it. (No ozone
> problems in N. Dakota).
> 
> The blacks on the Epson Archival are still pretty impressive for the low cost
> of this paper. And with Paul's cool curve, It didn't shift in
> nearly 3 months in a South window.  The blue in the ink probably prevented it
> from noticeably shifting towards brown.
> 
>> 
>> Oh, one thing about color. With both the VT and VP3, I find a print that
>> looks neutral in tungsten will be rather cool in daylight. I don't know if
>> this is metamerism.
> 
> You know, most magazine ads don't look identical in different lighting sources
> either. Neither do my acrylic paintings, but they are so
> close, I just gotta ask, who cares? BOY we're picking nits here.  In warm
> light, I just think it's natural to see colors just a hair warmer.
> 
> 
> 
>> as it follows the natural color of the light sources,
>> but it does make critical judgements about color difficult. You like your
>> prints cooler than I do, so I'll probably stay one curve warmer than you do.
>> Do you find the MIS inks dry down cooler than they look when fresh?
> 
> Not cooler, but a tiny bit darker, with more tonal separation in the shadows.
> 
> Remember you can also move the epson slider to get a tone BETWEEN the curves!
> 
> Jerry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

Todd,

You wrote:

>...I wonder if we experience this more than Paul cause we are on Macs
>and he's on a PC. ...

We have run into a Mac-PC difference for the 1280.  I wonder if the 1160 is
also affected.  Could you send me some test strips for the curves on EAM?

>...the blacks with the MIS inks seem to start out warmer (redder?)
>than the Piezo, until the inks dry.

They should be the same.  I just did a raw scan of a Piezo test strip (Piezo
driver) and an MIS variable-tone test strip.  The 100% black PS Histogram
tool RGB readings are as follows:

Piezo black -- 10.3/7.8/5.8

MIS VM black -- 5.2/1.8/1.7

(The luminance difference is due to the lighter Piezo driver blacks, not the
inks.)

The red minus blue values (that is the "warmth") of the inks are relatively
close.  In my testing, the two inks seem so close that I think they probably
are the same ink.

Paul Roark
1424 Aarhus Dr.
Solvang, CA 93463

>> ...I wonder if we experience this more than Paul cause we are on Macs
>> and he's on a PC. ...
> 
> We have run into a Mac-PC difference for the 1280.  I wonder if the 1160 is
> also affected.  Could you send me some test strips for the curves on EAM?

Anything you need! What's your pleasure, 21 step wedge? Lets just get clear
on what you need first, in terms of workflow and all. For instance I printed
the same image using sRGB and Adobe RGB, and went with Adobe because it gave
me a better screen match (brighter print) than sRGB. I start in Grayscale
gamma 2.2 like you, then Adobe RGB, then the same driver settings as you but
since the file is tagged Adobe, that is the source space (PS6). My monitor
is Spyder calibrated to D65K g2.2. So should I keep my current settings, or
use sRGB for our tests? What else?

So, if our prints match and you get a good screen to print match than it's
something in my monitor calibration, but if our prints differ it's something
in my workflow? Just wondering how you interpret the tests.

 
>> ...the blacks with the MIS inks seem to start out warmer (redder?)
>> than the Piezo, until the inks dry.
> 
> They should be the same.  I just did a raw scan of a Piezo test strip (Piezo
> driver) and an MIS variable-tone test strip.  The 100% black PS Histogram
> tool RGB readings are as follows:
> 
> Piezo black -- 10.3/7.8/5.8
> 
> MIS VM black -- 5.2/1.8/1.7
> 
> (The luminance difference is due to the lighter Piezo driver blacks, not the
> inks.)
> 
> The red minus blue values (that is the "warmth") of the inks are relatively
> close.  In my testing, the two inks seem so close that I think they probably
> are the same ink.

Hmm, as I told Jerry, they look less warm to me today, but...

It appeared more red when using a cool curve. It may just be the way the
toner is dispersed across the tones relative to the VP3 setup. Do you think
the toner ink mixes with the blacks at about the same percentage points
(points along the grayscale that is) as the VP3?

Also, reading your numbers above (forget luminance), MIS  Black's Red is
quite a bit higher by percentage than B & G, relative to the Piezo black no?
Doesn't that demonstrate a redder ink?

I'm just talking theory at this point BTW. I'm not making any more judgement
calls till I get more prints under the bridge.

Thanks,
Todd

> Paul Roark
> 1424 Aarhus Dr.
> Solvang, CA 93463
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

Todd, I'm betting you will LOVE the new Brightcube Eclipse Satine or Velvet. 300 gsms and 350 gsms, respectively. Fits your qualifications
to a t with MIS inks. No, no good for piezo inks.

I got the Legion sampler. There are FOUR different Somerset velvets. Haven't tried them all yet.

They are:

1.  Somerset Photo Enhanced Velvet Radiant White, 225 gsm, slightly thicker than epson archival matte
2. Somerset Photo Enhanced Textured, Radiant White, 225 gsm, slightly thicker than epson archival matte.
3. Somerset Enhanced Satin, fairly smooth, little texture, 330 gsm, nice and thick!
4. Somerset Enhanced Velvet, 255 gsm, fairly smooth. Note it is not enhanced PHOTO velvet.

Their naming procedures are getting more confusing than Epsons!

I'll test all these papers now, to see how the blacks are.


jerry

>
>
> I just made a couple of prints and the blacks don't seem reddish to me
> today. I've got to stop working with this stuff in the wee hours of the
> morning, when I have no good judgement at all. ;-)
>
> I'm very happy to have a very workable system, and at the price of these
> inks I can afford to mess around.
>
> Todd

Jerry

Thanks for the report on the Somerset papers.

With the Eclipse, how do you find the blacks using the VT? So far I'm
finding them about as deep as Museo, but no match for Torchon. Overall it's
a very nice sheet.

In another post you asked what paper people like best. I'd have to say, so
far Torchon gives me the greatest sense of depth, and that is important to
me. I am just so damn ready for a flat Torchon. Doesn't have to be velvet
smooth, just flat.

Todd

> Todd, I'm betting you will LOVE the new Brightcube Eclipse Satine or Velvet.
> 300 gsms and 350 gsms, respectively. Fits your qualifications
> to a t with MIS inks. No, no good for piezo inks.
> 
> I got the Legion sampler. There are FOUR different Somerset velvets. Haven't
> tried them all yet.
> 
> They are:
> 
> 1.  Somerset Photo Enhanced Velvet Radiant White, 225 gsm, slightly thicker
> than epson archival matte
> 2. Somerset Photo Enhanced Textured, Radiant White, 225 gsm, slightly thicker
> than epson archival matte.
> 3. Somerset Enhanced Satin, fairly smooth, little texture, 330 gsm, nice and
> thick!
> 4. Somerset Enhanced Velvet, 255 gsm, fairly smooth. Note it is not enhanced
> PHOTO velvet.
> 
> Their naming procedures are getting more confusing than Epsons!
> 
> I'll test all these papers now, to see how the blacks are.
> 
> 
> jerry
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> 
>> I just made a couple of prints and the blacks don't seem reddish to me
>> today. I've got to stop working with this stuff in the wee hours of the
>> morning, when I have no good judgement at all. ;-)
>> 
>> I'm very happy to have a very workable system, and at the price of these
>> inks I can afford to mess around.
>> 
>> Todd

Todd, I think the eclipse blacks are about the same as the Photo Matte from legion, and darker than the Museo.

What black ink do you have with your VT inkset? MIS makes 5 different blacks (that I know of, maybe more). Does it smell like there is
alcohol/glycol in it? If not, you don't have the blackest ink they make.

Jerry

My problem, is a lot of my stuff has large areas of black. If the black areas aren't really deep, it spoils the print. Like you, I'd LOVE a
torchon that was flat.

I think Eclipse and Photo Matte are the two closest, along with the Epson Archival, of course.

>
> With the Eclipse, how do you find the blacks using the VT? So far I'm
> finding them about as deep as Museo, but no match for Torchon. Overall it's
> a very nice sheet.
>
> In another post you asked what paper people like best. I'd have to say, so
> far Torchon gives me the greatest sense of depth, and that is important to
> me. I am just so damn ready for a flat Torchon. Doesn't have to be velvet
> smooth, just flat.
>
> Todd
>
> > Todd, I'm betting you will LOVE the new Brightcube Eclipse Satine or Velvet.
> > 300 gsms and 350 gsms, respectively. Fits your qualifications
> > to a t with MIS inks. No, no good for piezo inks.
> >
> > I got the Legion sampler. There are FOUR different Somerset velvets. Haven't
> > tried them all yet.
> >
> > They are:
> >
> > 1.  Somerset Photo Enhanced Velvet Radiant White, 225 gsm, slightly thicker
> > than epson archival matte
> > 2. Somerset Photo Enhanced Textured, Radiant White, 225 gsm, slightly thicker
> > than epson archival matte.
> > 3. Somerset Enhanced Satin, fairly smooth, little texture, 330 gsm, nice and
> > thick!
> > 4. Somerset Enhanced Velvet, 255 gsm, fairly smooth. Note it is not enhanced
> > PHOTO velvet.
> >
> > Their naming procedures are getting more confusing than Epsons!
> >
> > I'll test all these papers now, to see how the blacks are.
> >
> >
> > jerry
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> I just made a couple of prints and the blacks don't seem reddish to me
> >> today. I've got to stop working with this stuff in the wee hours of the
> >> morning, when I have no good judgement at all. ;-)
> >>
> >> I'm very happy to have a very workable system, and at the price of these
> >> inks I can afford to mess around.
> >>
> >> Todd
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> Todd, I think the eclipse blacks are about the same as the Photo Matte from
> legion, and darker than the Museo.
> 
> What black ink do you have with your VT inkset? MIS makes 5 different blacks
> (that I know of, maybe more). Does it smell like there is
> alcohol/glycol in it? If not, you don't have the blackest ink they make.
> 
> Jerry

Interesting. I'm getting good blacks on EAM, but not Eclipse. It's the right
black, it smells just like Piezo.

Did you try over-printing your blacks?

Todd

Not yet. I'll do it tonight. I wonder if it would be in register consistently?

Jerry

Todd Flashner wrote:

>
>
> > Todd, I think the eclipse blacks are about the same as the Photo Matte from
> > legion, and darker than the Museo.
> >
> > What black ink do you have with your VT inkset? MIS makes 5 different blacks
> > (that I know of, maybe more). Does it smell like there is
> > alcohol/glycol in it? If not, you don't have the blackest ink they make.
> >
> > Jerry
>
> Interesting. I'm getting good blacks on EAM, but not Eclipse. It's the right
> black, it smells just like Piezo.
>
> Did you try over-printing your blacks?
>
> Todd
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Todd,

I get a nice black with the MIS VM set on Eclipse Satine. The curve 
isn't a direct match. I need to apply an overall Brightness/Contrast 
layer and darken the image a bit to get a good print on the Eclipse. 
Blacks a maybe bit lighter than EAM but offset by the whiter white.

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> 
wrote:
>  
> 
> > Todd, I think the eclipse blacks are about the same as the Photo 
Matte from
> > legion, and darker than the Museo.
> > 
> > What black ink do you have with your VT inkset? MIS makes 5 
different blacks
> > (that I know of, maybe more). Does it smell like there is
> > alcohol/glycol in it? If not, you don't have the blackest ink 
they make.
> > 
> > Jerry
> 
> Interesting. I'm getting good blacks on EAM, but not Eclipse. It's 
the right

> black, it smells just like Piezo.
> 
> Did you try over-printing your blacks?
> 
> Todd