Digital BW, The Print

Steve,

Surely someone has written book on this but perhaps not and you have an
opportunity. Some thoughts to start with.

A negative exposed and developed for darkroom printing will probably be very
usable in a digital process.

In conventional photography you are mapping real world light levels to film
densities to paper densities. In a digital workflow you are mapping real
world light levels to film densities to  Or with direct digital capture,
real world light levels to numerical values in a file to print densities.

Scanners seem to be amazing at pulling usable detail off of unbelievably
thin negs and rather poor at punching through dense highlights. This
suggests that the ideal negative for scanning may be in the direction of N-1
or N-0.5 development with a bit more exposure.

You need to calibrate your system to find out what is the maximum film
density the scanner can read through to set Zone VIII and then minimum
density where it can render acceptable detail for Zone II or III. In terms
of your digital file these would then be at values of 99% and 1%
respectively so that you still have some slack.

Given a perfect neg and a perfect scan with a good printer profile the print
should be a snap. Right?<G>

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

----- Original Message -----
From: "steve1t" <stephentucker@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 7:07 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Scanned negatives and the Zone System


I've decided to dig out the old 4x5 Benderview and try
b&w film > scan > inkjet output.  However, I immediately
hit a snag.  How do I calibrate "personal film speed",
"standard print time", and "N, N+1, N-1, development"
for a negative to be scanned for digital output?  BTW, my
personal preferences are Ilford FP4+ developed in D-76,
D-76 1:1, or D-23.

My initial questions/thoughts are:

A - How can I carry out Zone system calibration digitally?  Or .
. .

B - Should I carry out all negative and proofing procedures
normally in the "wet" darkroom and then scan the resulting
negatives for digital output?  Or . . .

C - Do a classic "ring-a-round" for various lighting
conditions
and analyze the histograms for the best digital output?

Option "C" sounds intriguing, has anybody tried this?  ALL
opinions on these or other options are most welcome.

Thanks,
Steve T.




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Hallo,

Some points here by Norman Koren - also some links!

http://www.normankoren.com/zonesystem.html

This shows how hard it is to translate the Zone System, also taking 
care of colours?? But a start I think.

"If You can't manage with B/W - try colour!" (A.A ?????)
Regards
Bo Wrangborg

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> Steve,
> 
> Surely someone has written book on this but perhaps not and you 
have an
> opportunity. Some thoughts to start with.
> 
> A negative exposed and developed for darkroom printing will 
probably be very
> usable in a digital process.
> 
> In conventional photography you are mapping real world light levels 
to film
> densities to paper densities. In a digital workflow you are mapping 
real
> world light levels to film densities to  Or with direct digital 
capture,
> real world light levels to numerical values in a file to print 
densities.
> 
> Scanners seem to be amazing at pulling usable detail off of 
unbelievably
> thin negs and rather poor at punching through dense highlights. This
> suggests that the ideal negative for scanning may be in the 
direction of N-1
> or N-0.5 development with a bit more exposure.
> 
> You need to calibrate your system to find out what is the maximum 
film
> density the scanner can read through to set Zone VIII and then 
minimum
> density where it can render acceptable detail for Zone II or III. 
In terms
> of your digital file these would then be at values of 99% and 1%
> respectively so that you still have some slack.
> 
> Given a perfect neg and a perfect scan with a good printer profile 
the print
> should be a snap. Right?<G>
> 
> Martin Wesley
> 
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "steve1t" <stephentucker@h...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 7:07 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Scanned negatives and the Zone System
> 
> 
> I've decided to dig out the old 4x5 Benderview and try
> b&w film > scan > inkjet output.  However, I immediately
> hit a snag.  How do I calibrate "personal film speed",
> "standard print time", and "N, N+1, N-1, development"
> for a negative to be scanned for digital output?  BTW, my
> personal preferences are Ilford FP4+ developed in D-76,
> D-76 1:1, or D-23.
> 
> My initial questions/thoughts are:
> 
> A - How can I carry out Zone system calibration digitally?  Or .
> . .
> 
> B - Should I carry out all negative and proofing procedures
> normally in the "wet" darkroom and then scan the resulting
> negatives for digital output?  Or . . .
> 
> C - Do a classic "ring-a-round" for various lighting
> conditions
> and analyze the histograms for the best digital output?
> 
> Option "C" sounds intriguing, has anybody tried this?  ALL
> opinions on these or other options are most welcome.
> 
> Thanks,
> Steve T.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

I wouldn't worry too much about it.  I've got a ton of LF negs with compressed and expanded development, including "N-4" compensated development.  Just scan and "print" in Photoshop to taste.  In Photoshop, less is always more, so you would see pretty quickly when an adjustment curve went beyond the pale, and that should give a clue as to exposure and development.  Aside from that, you will have some more flexibility than with printing paper.  A couple of caveats, though:  If you need greatly expanded development, that can be a problem for some scanners because the neg is more dense.    Having said that, a friend just brought over some bulletproof 4x5 negs and they scanned OK on my Heidleberg.  Another one is that pyro can sometimes be difficult to scan.  I have a lot of LF negs developed in PMK or Rollo pyro, and they do require some extra attention.  Hope this helps a little.

  --Ken

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: steve1t 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 9:07 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Scanned negatives and the Zone System


  I've decided to dig out the old 4x5 Benderview and try
  b&w film > scan > inkjet output.  However, I immediately
  hit a snag.  How do I calibrate "personal film speed",
  "standard print time", and "N, N+1, N-1, development"
  for a negative to be scanned for digital output?  BTW, my
  personal preferences are Ilford FP4+ developed in D-76,
  D-76 1:1, or D-23.

  My initial questions/thoughts are:

  A - How can I carry out Zone system calibration digitally?  Or .
  . .

  B - Should I carry out all negative and proofing procedures
  normally in the "wet" darkroom and then scan the resulting
  negatives for digital output?  Or . . .

  C - Do a classic "ring-a-round" for various lighting
  conditions
  and analyze the histograms for the best digital output?

  Option "C" sounds intriguing, has anybody tried this?  ALL
  opinions on these or other options are most welcome.

  Thanks,
  Steve T.



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  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



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