Digital BW, The Print

>I improperly ordered a set of MIS FS (cone)
>instead of the 'E' (epson) hex inksets for my 2000P.

>When I called yesterday, the information I received said that only >the PC
and PM needed to be replaced.....

True.  The FS "E" series just replaces the PC & PM inks.  The Piezo driver
uses equal density ink in the "light/photo" ink positions, such that C=PC &
M=PM.  In the "E" series FS inks, the "light/photo" ink positions should be
clearly lighter.

>But, when I did a CMY to BW conversion, I obtained densities of
>C = 30 %
>M = 68 %
>Y = 7 %
>B = 100 %

I don't know what you mean by a "CMY to BW conversion."


>From the non E FS hexset, I have inks with densities of

>B = 100
>C , PC = 25 %
>M , PM = 7.3
>Y = 3.4

>So, the Cs and Ms are mislabeled, there is a
>nonproportionality between ink density and printed
>shade and the PC and PM for the Epson set will then
>be perhaps 15% and 5% ???

I think we need to post a standard purge pattern file and scans of purge
patterns for the various inksets (with the settings used to make them).
Unfortunately, I don't have a scan of the FS-"E" inkset that shows what the
inks should look like.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Hello Paul,
Yes, what I meant to say was that I created an image with areas of Cyan, Magenta, and Yellow then did a conversion to B&W via a Luminance layer extraction. A histogram analysis yielded the numbers shown below.

> >But, when I did a CMY to BW conversion, I obtained densities of
> >C = 30 %
> >M = 68 %
> >Y = 7 %
> >B = 100 %
> 
> I don't know what you mean by a "CMY to BW conversion."
> 
> 
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

When I adjust the scan histogram of a slice from a CMYK 4-ink purge 
pattern so that the white of the paper is 0% and the black patch is 
100%, I get the following relative reflective densities (0 to 100% 
scale) for the FS inkset:

C = +/- 78%
M = +/- 49%
Y = +/- 33%
K = 100%

As you suggest, your C and M bottles may be mislabled.  The cyan 
position ink is the darkest and the yellow the lightest.  This is why 
I always do a quick swab test on a sheet of printer paper to visually 
check the relative densities before loading up the CIS/CFS. I use a q-
tip or tooth pick if worried about cotton fibers in the ink as a swab.

Jeff Randall



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "a_pettit_jr" 
<a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:

> Yes, what I meant to say was that I created an image with areas of 
Cyan, Magenta, and Yellow then did a conversion to B&W via a 
Luminance layer extraction. A histogram analysis yielded the numbers 
shown below.

> 
> > >But, when I did a CMY to BW conversion, I obtained densities of
> > >C = 30 %
> > >M = 68 %
> > >Y = 7 %
> > >B = 100 %

The story continues ... I orginally purchased the non E version of
the MIS FS Hex inks and this started me on a project to measure the
relative ink densities ( while waiting for the E versions to arrive )

If I create a CMY color pattern and extract the Luminance, I obtain
C = 30 %
M = 59 %
Y = 12 %

Even if there is a non linear relationship between the ink densities 
and printed color, this inkset seems 'strange'

The relative grey densities commpared to the Black are :

B = 100 %
C = 26 %
M = 7.2 %
Y = 3.2 %
PCe = 9.6 %
PMe = 1.6 %

I am sure there is some factor that I am missing, And that may be the
EpsonDriver in the way it is attempting to create grey shades from
its presumed hex color set, but I would have thought that M should
have been the darkest ink and that the C and M photo inks perhaps
2/3rds or half the density of their full depth ink. The PMe is much
lighter than Yellow....

I just don't wish to fill the carts and then have another problem
with posterized prints as I did the last time with VM on my 2000P.

Thanks,
Alex

This is getting challenging ...

Alex:  

For both the hex-FS and hex-FS-E inksets the Cyan position ink is 
dark gray, the Magenta position ink is middle gray and the Yellow 
position ink is light gray. This is not consistant with your first 
test. 

In the hex-FS, the PM position ink is the same as the M position ink 
and the PC position ink is the same as the C position ink.

In the hex-FS-E, the PM position ink is a dilution of the M position 
ink and is therefore lighter and the PC position ink is a dilution of 
the C position ink and is therefore lighter.  Your second test of the 
hex-FS-E inks are consistant with this.

Try a swab test using a q-tip and visually compare.

Jeff Randall

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "a_pettit_jr" 
<a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:
> The story continues ... I orginally purchased the non E version of
> the MIS FS Hex inks and this started me on a project to measure the
> relative ink densities ( while waiting for the E versions to 
arrive )
> 
> If I create a CMY color pattern and extract the Luminance, I obtain
> C = 30 %
> M = 59 %
> Y = 12 %
> 
> Even if there is a non linear relationship between the ink 
densities 
> and printed color, this inkset seems 'strange'
> 
> The relative grey densities commpared to the Black are :
> 
> B = 100 %
> C = 26 %
> M = 7.2 %
> Y = 3.2 %
> PCe = 9.6 %
> PMe = 1.6 %
> 
> I am sure there is some factor that I am missing, And that may be 
the

> EpsonDriver in the way it is attempting to create grey shades from
> its presumed hex color set, but I would have thought that M should
> have been the darkest ink and that the C and M photo inks perhaps
> 2/3rds or half the density of their full depth ink. The PMe is much
> lighter than Yellow....
> 
> I just don't wish to fill the carts and then have another problem
> with posterized prints as I did the last time with VM on my 2000P.
> 
> Thanks,
> Alex
> 
> This is getting challenging ...

Hello Jeff,
The first set of values was obtained from creating an image with CMY
saturated color blocks, doing a Luminance extraction, and then
measuring their histogram grey levels...  C = 30 %  M = 59 % 
Y = 12 %

I just printed the 21-step grey scale by converting to RGB space and
then to the Epson 2000P. The grey range from 65% to 95% is quite
magenta biased and the 35% to 65% has the cyan cast. The Epson driver
thus seems to expect that the Magenta position will create a darker
BW shading.

I again measured the MIS FS inks and the differing results show the
variability in my eyeball comparisions ..
B 100%
C 30%
M 8%
Y 4.4%
PCe 10%
PMe 2.5%

I intend to install the inkset with the Cyan and PCyan swapped with the
Magenta and PMagenta. There is too much inconsistency between what I
measure and what the Epson Driver does vs the labels on the MIS FS
bottles to Not do so....

Comments ???

Regards,
Alex

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jrandall1149"
<jrandall@c...> wrote:
> Alex:  
> 
> For both the hex-FS and hex-FS-E inksets the Cyan position ink is 
> dark gray, the Magenta position ink is middle gray and the Yellow 
> position ink is light gray. This is not consistant with your first 
> test. 
> 
> In the hex-FS, the PM position ink is the same as the M position
ink 
> and the PC position ink is the same as the C position ink.
> 
> In the hex-FS-E, the PM position ink is a dilution of the M
position 
> ink and is therefore lighter and the PC position ink is a dilution
of 
> the C position ink and is therefore lighter.  Your second test of
the 

> hex-FS-E inks are consistant with this.
> 
> Try a swab test using a q-tip and visually compare.
> 
> Jeff Randall
>

Alex,

First I presume you are using the Epson driver. And that you are 
using FS regular (Not FS-E) inks. If you are going to do any 
swapping, do the following:

Place cyan ink (dark) in cyan position
Place photocyan (dark-same ink as cyan) ink in the magenta position
Place the magenta ink (medium)in the photocyan position
Place the photomagenta ink (medium-same as magenta) in the 
photomagenta position.
Yellow goes in yellow position.

So now you have CcMmY = dark, medium, dark, medium, light

Now after nozzel checks, etc., print a gradient and 21 step 
from "grayscale" space. You will be amazed at the quality. A few 
minor tweak in a curves adjstument layer, and you are good to go for 
starters. This works extremely well with the 1280 printer, and unless 
there is something funky about the 2000P, it should be agood place to 
start.

Good luck.

Shilesh



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "a_pettit_jr" 
<a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:
> Hello Jeff,
> The first set of values was obtained from creating an image with CMY
> saturated color blocks, doing a Luminance extraction, and then
> measuring their histogram grey levels...  C = 30 %  M = 59 % 
> Y = 12 %
> 
> I just printed the 21-step grey scale by converting to RGB space and
> then to the Epson 2000P. The grey range from 65% to 95% is quite
> magenta biased and the 35% to 65% has the cyan cast. The Epson 
driver
> thus seems to expect that the Magenta position will create a darker
> BW shading.
> 
> I again measured the MIS FS inks and the differing results show the
> variability in my eyeball comparisions ..
> B 100%
> C 30%
> M 8%
> Y 4.4%
> PCe 10%
> PMe 2.5%
> 
> I intend to install the inkset with the Cyan and PCyan swapped with 
the
> Magenta and PMagenta. There is too much inconsistency between what I
> measure and what the Epson Driver does vs the labels on the MIS FS
> bottles to Not do so....
> 
> Comments ???
> 
> Regards,
> Alex
> 
> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jrandall1149"
> <jrandall@c...> wrote:
> > Alex:  
> > 
> > For both the hex-FS and hex-FS-E inksets the Cyan position ink is 
> > dark gray, the Magenta position ink is middle gray and the Yellow 
> > position ink is light gray. This is not consistant with your 
first 

> > test. 
> > 
> > In the hex-FS, the PM position ink is the same as the M position
> ink 
> > and the PC position ink is the same as the C position ink.
> > 
> > In the hex-FS-E, the PM position ink is a dilution of the M
> position 
> > ink and is therefore lighter and the PC position ink is a dilution
> of 
> > the C position ink and is therefore lighter.  Your second test of
> the 
> > hex-FS-E inks are consistant with this.
> > 
> > Try a swab test using a q-tip and visually compare.
> > 
> > Jeff Randall
> >

Hi Shilesh,
I have them All - I inadvertently ordered the standard FS hex set and then ordered the two Epson PMe and PCe inks ( they are evidently the only differing shades and about 1/3rd the density of their associated inks ). And, interestingly, the Black is neutral, the other inks have a faint yellow cast to them which makes their dilution comparisons difficult.

Alex

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "shileshcjani" <shilesh.jani@s...> wrote:

> Alex,
> 
> First I presume you are using the Epson driver. And that you are 
> using FS regular (Not FS-E) inks. If you are going to do any 
> swapping, do the following:
> 
> Place cyan ink (dark) in cyan position
> Place photocyan (dark-same ink as cyan) ink in the magenta position
> Place the magenta ink (medium)in the photocyan position
> Place the photomagenta ink (medium-same as magenta) in the 
> photomagenta position.
> Yellow goes in yellow position.
> 
> So now you have CcMmY = dark, medium, dark, medium, light
> 
> Now after nozzel checks, etc., print a gradient and 21 step 
> from "grayscale" space. You will be amazed at the quality. A few 
> minor tweak in a curves adjstument layer, and you are good to go for 
> starters. This works extremely well with the 1280 printer, and unless 
> there is something funky about the 2000P, it should be agood place to 
> start.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Shilesh
> 
> 
> 
>
> > >

"a_pettit_jr" <a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:

> The first set of values was obtained from creating an image with CMY
> saturated color blocks, doing a Luminance extraction, and then
> measuring their histogram grey levels...  C = 30 %  M = 59 % 
> Y = 12 %

The C and M gray inks must have been mislabled (interchanged) because 
these relative values are incorrect. C>M>Y (0-100% grayscale values 
where 100% is black)

Let's define your workflow better.  

1) The test above was done with the hex FS inkset for Cone driver 
(where C=PC and M=PM)?
2) You created and printed a CMY color file (with no K block)?
2a) What were your printer settings?  
3) You then cropped and scanned these three blocks with a flat bed 
scanner? 
4) Did you crop each block seperately or did you include all three 
blocks and some white space?
4) What scanner, software, and settings (eg., wp, bp, autolevels, 
color correction, etc.) did you use?
5) What photoediting program did you use?
6) Why did you extract luminance, why not go directly to the 
histogram?

> 
> I just printed the 21-step grey scale by converting to RGB space and
> then to the Epson 2000P. 

7) Which inkset?
7a) What ink positions?
8) Did you apply any curve (like the Woolf hex-inkset lumped (non-
partitioned) curve?  If you didn't, the subsequent results can be way 
off base. You must use, tweak, or develop a work flow including 
curves (either partitioned or lumped) for your inkset and printer. 
You have to tell the Epson driver how to lay down these inks because 
the . 
9) What were your printer settings? 

>The grey range from 65% to 95% is quite
> magenta biased and the 35% to 65% has the cyan cast. The Epson 
driver
> thus seems to expect that the Magenta position will create a darker
> BW shading.

I do not understand how the FS or FS-E inksets can have any color 
cast.  I apologize because I may not understand your terminology.
> 
> I again measured the MIS FS inks and the differing results show the
> variability in my eyeball comparisions ..
> B 100%
> C 30%
> M 8%
> Y 4.4%
> PCe 10%
> PMe 2.5%

9) What image did you measure--the 21-stepwedge?
10) Any difference in scanning from above?
11) I don't understand your numbers, but they do show that C is 
darker than M is darker than Y.  And that PCe is lighter than C and 
that PMe is lighter than M. These are the correct relative densities.
> 
> I intend to install the inkset with the Cyan and PCyan swapped with 
the
> Magenta and PMagenta. There is too much inconsistency between what I
> measure and what the Epson Driver does vs the labels on the MIS FS
> bottles to Not do so....

Put each gray ink in the position labeled on the bottle (after 
checking that the density ranges from dark to light C>M>Y).  Then 
apply a work flow designed for the Epson driver and your printer.  
I'd start out with the Woolf hexset curve. 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jrandall1149"
> <jrandall@c...> wrote:
> > Alex:  
> > 
> > For both the hex-FS and hex-FS-E inksets the Cyan position ink is 
> > dark gray, the Magenta position ink is middle gray and the Yellow 
> > position ink is light gray. This is not consistant with your 
first 

> > test. 
> > 
> > In the hex-FS, the PM position ink is the same as the M position
> ink 
> > and the PC position ink is the same as the C position ink.
> > 
> > In the hex-FS-E, the PM position ink is a dilution of the M
> position 
> > ink and is therefore lighter and the PC position ink is a dilution
> of 
> > the C position ink and is therefore lighter.  Your second test of
> the 
> > hex-FS-E inks are consistant with this.
> > 
> > Try a swab test using a q-tip and visually compare.
> > 
> > Jeff Randall
> >

Hello Jeff,
Thank you for being so patient and wading through the inappropriate terms that I have been using.....

First, I just wished to see what the relative intensity values would be measured by creating C and M and Y boxes with a white background, converting to BW via Luminance layer extraction and then just measuring them via a histogram - all in software - never actually printing the image. 
This shows that Magenta is 'darker' than cyan. 
When I used PictureWindows the lightness values for the Luminance layer were
W = 100 %
Y = 88 %
C = 70 %
M = 41 %
B = 0 %
I Photoshop, I did a LAB convert and then discarded all but the L layer and obtained a histogram of 
W = 100 %
Y = 66 %
C = 50 %
M = 33 %
B = 0 %

The for the 21 step test strip I printed, I just converted to RGB space ( PicWindows ) and then printed. This BW 'shading' is quite typical of what I have always found with the E 2000P in printing a neutral tone file.

I did the Color to BW converstion prior to viewing the histogram because I wished to observe what the computer interpreted as the relative intensity (density) levels - that is what is done to a color image for BW processing normally anyhow...

The only printer output for these tests was the 21step strip.

I measured all the ink densities via dilution using a graduated dropper and water. I diluted the black to about 1000:1 to make it fairly  transparent and then diluted the other inks to the same eyeball density - that is where I saw the faint yellow tint in the other inks relative to the diluted black.

SO, it still appears that the Color > BW conversion using either PhotoShop or PictureWindows computes Magenta as a denser color than Cyan. This is why I have intended to occupy the Magenta positions with the darker Cyan labeled inks for the first attempt. AND, the Epson driver puts more magenta ink in the 65%-95% 21step strip areas and greater cyan in the 35%-65% areas when printing a BW file - thus it seems to me that the Magenta ink should be the darkest .... no ???

This is the result of my very poor experience with the VM set and having so much posterization - that I why I plan to swap the Ms with Cs and give it a try ....  A workflow in BW space will never correct for 'misplaced' inks ...

Thanks,
Alex



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jrandall1149" <jrandall@c...> wrote:

> "a_pettit_jr" <a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:
> 
> > The first set of values was obtained from creating an image with CMY
> > saturated color blocks, doing a Luminance extraction, and then
> > measuring their histogram grey levels...  C = 30 %  M = 59 % 
> > Y = 12 %
> 
> The C and M gray inks must have been mislabled (interchanged) because 
> these relative values are incorrect. C>M>Y (0-100% grayscale values 
> where 100% is black)
> 
> Let's define your workflow better.  
> 
> 1) The test above was done with the hex FS inkset for Cone driver 
> (where C=PC and M=PM)?
> 2) You created and printed a CMY color file (with no K block)?
> 2a) What were your printer settings?  
> 3) You then cropped and scanned these three blocks with a flat bed 
> scanner? 
> 4) Did you crop each block seperately or did you include all three 
> blocks and some white space?
> 4) What scanner, software, and settings (eg., wp, bp, autolevels, 
> color correction, etc.) did you use?
> 5) What photoediting program did you use?
> 6) Why did you extract luminance, why not go directly to the 
> histogram?
> 
> > 
> > I just printed the 21-step grey scale by converting to RGB space and
> > then to the Epson 2000P. 
> 
> 7) Which inkset?
> 7a) What ink positions?
> 8) Did you apply any curve (like the Woolf hex-inkset lumped (non-
> partitioned) curve?  If you didn't, the subsequent results can be way 
> off base. You must use, tweak, or develop a work flow including 
> curves (either partitioned or lumped) for your inkset and printer. 
> You have to tell the Epson driver how to lay down these inks because 
> the . 
> 9) What were your printer settings? 
> 
> >The grey range from 65% to 95% is quite
> > magenta biased and the 35% to 65% has the cyan cast. The Epson 
> driver
> > thus seems to expect that the Magenta position will create a darker
> > BW shading.
> 
> I do not understand how the FS or FS-E inksets can have any color 
> cast.  I apologize because I may not understand your terminology.
> > 
> > I again measured the MIS FS inks and the differing results show the
> > variability in my eyeball comparisions ..
> > B 100%
> > C 30%
> > M 8%
> > Y 4.4%
> > PCe 10%
> > PMe 2.5%
> 
> 9) What image did you measure--the 21-stepwedge?
> 10) Any difference in scanning from above?
> 11) I don't understand your numbers, but they do show that C is 
> darker than M is darker than Y.  And that PCe is lighter than C and 
> that PMe is lighter than M. These are the correct relative densities.
> > 
> > I intend to install the inkset with the Cyan and PCyan swapped with 
> the
> > Magenta and PMagenta. There is too much inconsistency between what I
> > measure and what the Epson Driver does vs the labels on the MIS FS
> > bottles to Not do so....
> 
> Put each gray ink in the position labeled on the bottle (after 
> checking that the density ranges from dark to light C>M>Y).  Then 
> apply a work flow designed for the Epson driver and your printer.  
> I'd start out with the Woolf hexset curve. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jrandall1149"
> > <jrandall@c...> wrote:
> > > Alex:  
> > > 
> > > For both the hex-FS and hex-FS-E inksets the Cyan position ink is 
> > > dark gray, the Magenta position ink is middle gray and the Yellow 
> > > position ink is light gray. This is not consistant with your 
> first 
> > > test. 
> > > 
> > > In the hex-FS, the PM position ink is the same as the M position
> > ink 
> > > and the PC position ink is the same as the C position ink.
> > > 
> > > In the hex-FS-E, the PM position ink is a dilution of the M
> > position 
> > > ink and is therefore lighter and the PC position ink is a dilution
> > of 
> > > the C position ink and is therefore lighter.  Your second test of
> > the 
> > > hex-FS-E inks are consistant with this.
> > > 
> > > Try a swab test using a q-tip and visually compare.
> > > 
> > > Jeff Randall
> > >

Alex:

Good, we are making progress.  Overall, what is your purpose/goal of 
doing these experiments?  Where are you going with this?  Are you 
trying to develop from scratch an inkset that will create smooth, 
full range grayscale prints using only the Epson driver?

"a_pettit_jr" <a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:

> First, I just wished to see what the relative intensity values 
would be measured by creating C and M and Y boxes with a white 
background, converting to BW via Luminance layer extraction and then 
just measuring them via a histogram - all in software - never 
actually printing the image. 
> This shows that Magenta is 'darker' than cyan. 
> When I used PictureWindows the lightness values for the Luminance 
layer were
> W = 100 %
> Y = 88 %
> C = 70 %
> M = 41 %
> B = 0 %
> I Photoshop, I did a LAB convert and then discarded all but the L 
layer and obtained a histogram of 
> W = 100 %
> Y = 66 %
> C = 50 %
> M = 33 %
> B = 0 %

OK, I now understand what you did with Picture Windows and Photoshop 
above.

> 
> The for the 21 step test strip I printed, I just converted to RGB 
space ( PicWindows ) and then printed. This BW 'shading' is quite 
typical of what I have always found with the E 2000P in printing a 
neutral tone file.
> 
> I did the Color to BW converstion prior to viewing the histogram 
because I wished to observe what the computer interpreted as the 
relative intensity (density) levels - that is what is done to a color 
image for BW processing normally anyhow...
> 
> The only printer output for these tests was the 21step strip.
>

Ok, you printed a 24-bit grayscale image.  What inks in what 
positions did you use to print the 21-stepwedge?  What Epson dialog 
settings did you use (Color or Black, Color Correction On or Off, 
what printer profile, etc.)?  

NOTE: Without applying a partitioned curve to a 24-bit BW image or a 
lumped/non-partitioned curve to an 8-bit BW image all you are testing 
is how the native, uncontrolled Epson driver responds.  Of course it 
will yield strange results.
 
> 
> I measured all the ink densities via dilution using a graduated 
dropper and water. I diluted the black to about 1000:1 to make it 
fairly  transparent and then diluted the other inks to the same 
eyeball density - that is where I saw the faint yellow tint in the 
other inks relative to the diluted black.
>

Very interesting procedure.  How the inks on paper reflect light to 
the eye might be better quantified if you p

> 
> SO, it still appears that the Color > BW conversion using either 
PhotoShop or PictureWindows computes Magenta as a denser color than 
Cyan. This is why I have intended to occupy the Magenta positions 
with the darker Cyan labeled inks for the first attempt. AND, the 
Epson driver puts more magenta ink in the 65%-95% 21step strip areas 
and greater cyan in the 35%-65% areas when printing a BW file - thus 
it seems to me that the Magenta ink should be the darkest .... no ???
>

The actual *color* Magenta may be darker (less luminious) than Cyan, 
I have not done the experiment.  However, the current ink positions 
of FS, FS-E, & PiezoBW are a historical artifact based on the 
original positions chosen by the developers of the PiezoBW driver who 
totally bypassed the Epson driver.  In reality, the inks can be in 
any position (eg., either yellow or photomagenta position could hold 
the darkest ink) if the driver is written correctly.  When MIS 
developed the FS inkset they wanted folks to be able to use the FS 
inks with the PiezoBW driver.  Because many folks wanted to also use 
the MIS inks with Epson drivers, a series of partitioned and 
lumped/nonpartitioned curves were developed to control the Epson 
driver with the inks in the historical positions.

 
> This is the result of my very poor experience with the VM set and 
having so much posterization - that I why I plan to swap the Ms with 
Cs and give it a try ....  A workflow in BW space will never correct 
for 'misplaced' inks ...


Many folks are using the VM and FS families of ink with an Epson 
driver quite sucessfully and producing smooth, nonposterized prints 
with the currently available workflows.  The partitioned workflows 
have been especially written for the current ink densities and 
*color* positions.  There may be mislabeled bottles or incorrectly 
filled carts, but there are no 'misplaced' inks.

Jeff Randall 



> 
> Thanks,
> Alex
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jrandall1149" 
<jrandall@c...> wrote:
> > "a_pettit_jr" <a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > > The first set of values was obtained from creating an image 
with CMY
> > > saturated color blocks, doing a Luminance extraction, and then
> > > measuring their histogram grey levels...  C = 30 %  M = 59 % 
> > > Y = 12 %
> > 
> > The C and M gray inks must have been mislabled (interchanged) 
because 
> > these relative values are incorrect. C>M>Y (0-100% grayscale 
values 
> > where 100% is black)
> > 
> > Let's define your workflow better.  
> > 
> > 1) The test above was done with the hex FS inkset for Cone driver 
> > (where C=PC and M=PM)?
> > 2) You created and printed a CMY color file (with no K block)?
> > 2a) What were your printer settings?  
> > 3) You then cropped and scanned these three blocks with a flat 
bed 
> > scanner? 
> > 4) Did you crop each block seperately or did you include all 
three 
> > blocks and some white space?
> > 4) What scanner, software, and settings (eg., wp, bp, autolevels, 
> > color correction, etc.) did you use?
> > 5) What photoediting program did you use?
> > 6) Why did you extract luminance, why not go directly to the 
> > histogram?
> > 
> > > 
> > > I just printed the 21-step grey scale by converting to RGB 
space and
> > > then to the Epson 2000P. 
> > 
> > 7) Which inkset?
> > 7a) What ink positions?
> > 8) Did you apply any curve (like the Woolf hex-inkset lumped (non-
> > partitioned) curve?  If you didn't, the subsequent results can be 
way 
> > off base. You must use, tweak, or develop a work flow including 
> > curves (either partitioned or lumped) for your inkset and 
printer. 
> > You have to tell the Epson driver how to lay down these inks 
because 
> > the . 
> > 9) What were your printer settings? 
> > 
> > >The grey range from 65% to 95% is quite
> > > magenta biased and the 35% to 65% has the cyan cast. The Epson 
> > driver
> > > thus seems to expect that the Magenta position will create a 
darker
> > > BW shading.
> > 
> > I do not understand how the FS or FS-E inksets can have any color 
> > cast.  I apologize because I may not understand your terminology.
> > > 
> > > I again measured the MIS FS inks and the differing results show 
the
> > > variability in my eyeball comparisions ..
> > > B 100%
> > > C 30%
> > > M 8%
> > > Y 4.4%
> > > PCe 10%
> > > PMe 2.5%
> > 
> > 9) What image did you measure--the 21-stepwedge?
> > 10) Any difference in scanning from above?
> > 11) I don't understand your numbers, but they do show that C is 
> > darker than M is darker than Y.  And that PCe is lighter than C 
and 
> > that PMe is lighter than M. These are the correct relative 
densities.
> > > 
> > > I intend to install the inkset with the Cyan and PCyan swapped 
with 
> > the
> > > Magenta and PMagenta. There is too much inconsistency between 
what I
> > > measure and what the Epson Driver does vs the labels on the MIS 
FS
> > > bottles to Not do so....
> > 
> > Put each gray ink in the position labeled on the bottle (after 
> > checking that the density ranges from dark to light C>M>Y).  Then 
> > apply a work flow designed for the Epson driver and your 
printer.  
> > I'd start out with the Woolf hexset curve. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jrandall1149"
> > > <jrandall@c...> wrote:
> > > > Alex:  
> > > > 
> > > > For both the hex-FS and hex-FS-E inksets the Cyan position 
ink is 
> > > > dark gray, the Magenta position ink is middle gray and the 
Yellow 
> > > > position ink is light gray. This is not consistant with your 
> > first 
> > > > test. 
> > > > 
> > > > In the hex-FS, the PM position ink is the same as the M 
position
> > > ink 
> > > > and the PC position ink is the same as the C position ink.
> > > > 
> > > > In the hex-FS-E, the PM position ink is a dilution of the M
> > > position 
> > > > ink and is therefore lighter and the PC position ink is a 
dilution
> > > of 
> > > > the C position ink and is therefore lighter.  Your second 
test of

> > > the 
> > > > hex-FS-E inks are consistant with this.
> > > > 
> > > > Try a swab test using a q-tip and visually compare.
> > > > 
> > > > Jeff Randall
> > > >

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jrandall1149" <jrandall@c...> wrote:
> Alex:
> 
> Good, we are making progress.  Overall, what is your purpose/goal of 
> doing these experiments?  Where are you going with this?  Are you 
> trying to develop from scratch an inkset that will create smooth, 
> full range grayscale prints using only the Epson driver?
>

Yes, Jeff, or at least get closer to the proper grey mix rather than try to do all the recorrection of the inkset with software. From a microscopic view of the 21Step chart, it appears that the Epson driver uses the PC and PM inks to about the 45% level and then to the C and P for darker shading, the B becoming significant above 75%, with the C predominant from 35%-65% and M from 65% to 90%. The Epson driver thus uses the M position for the darkest shading.
 
> 
> Ok, you printed a 24-bit grayscale image.  What inks in what 
> positions did you use to print the 21-stepwedge?  What Epson dialog 
> settings did you use (Color or Black, Color Correction On or Off, 
> what printer profile, etc.)?  

Epson setup : Color mode, Correction Off, default ICM, Stock Epson 2000P Color Inkset. I have yet to fill the CIS carts and install them - 


> NOTE: Without applying a partitioned curve to a 24-bit BW image or a 
> lumped/non-partitioned curve to an 8-bit BW image all you are testing 
> is how the native, uncontrolled Epson driver responds.  Of course it 
> will yield strange results.
>  

I am lost in lumped partition workspace - very unfamiliar with these procedures.


> 
> Very interesting procedure.  How the inks on paper reflect light to 
> the eye might be better quantified if you p
> 

'p' print ??? I can't print until I install the inks, and I will do that only after I choose their positions. I am sure there is some non proportionality between dilution density and printed grey level.

> 
> The actual *color* Magenta may be darker (less luminious) than Cyan, 
> I have not done the experiment.  However, the current ink positions 
> of FS, FS-E, & PiezoBW are a historical artifact based on the 
> original positions chosen by the developers of the PiezoBW driver who 
> totally bypassed the Epson driver.  In reality, the inks can be in 
> any position (eg., either yellow or photomagenta position could hold 
> the darkest ink) if the driver is written correctly.  When MIS 
> developed the FS inkset they wanted folks to be able to use the FS 
> inks with the PiezoBW driver.  Because many folks wanted to also use 
> the MIS inks with Epson drivers, a series of partitioned and 
> lumped/nonpartitioned curves were developed to control the Epson 
> driver with the inks in the historical positions.
> 

I am going to try to do this with the Epson Driver as there are no alternatives (aka Piezo) for the 2000P. I had fully planned to stuff this printer in the closet and purchase a 1280; this is a last attempt at making my 2000P work before doing so. 

 
> 
> 
> Many folks are using the VM and FS families of ink with an Epson 
> driver quite sucessfully and producing smooth, nonposterized prints 
> with the currently available workflows.  The partitioned workflows 
> have been especially written for the current ink densities and 
> *color* positions.  There may be mislabeled bottles or incorrectly 
> filled carts, but there are no 'misplaced' inks.

I tried a set of VM prefilled carts ( for the 1280 ) and was not pleased at all with the results. I tried Paul Roark's color correction curves, but never got satisfactory results - the prints were highly posterized..
 


Regards,
Alex

Alex:

You are heading into uncharted waters (at least by me) of reordering 
the ink positions and using the Epson driver with no adjustment 
curves.  Paul Roark theorized several months ago about switching the 
FS ink positions, but I don't remember the details or know if he ran 
any tests.  

You indicated you tried the VM inkset and found it didn't work for 
you on your 2000.  Now that you have the FS-E inks, I suggest you 
consider the Woolf lumped/nonpartitioned work flow for the FS-E 
inkset before you commit to your plan--this is an alternative to the 
PiezoBW driver.  

The workflow can be found on the MIS Quad Workflow page at:  
www.inksupply.com.

Good Luck.

Jeff Randall

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "a_pettit_jr" 
<a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jrandall1149" 
<jrandall@c...> wrote:
> > Alex:
> > 
> > Good, we are making progress.  Overall, what is your purpose/goal 
of 
> > doing these experiments?  Where are you going with this?  Are you 
> > trying to develop from scratch an inkset that will create smooth, 
> > full range grayscale prints using only the Epson driver?
> >
> 
> Yes, Jeff, or at least get closer to the proper grey mix rather 
than try to do all the recorrection of the inkset with software. From 
a microscopic view of the 21Step chart, it appears that the Epson 
driver uses the PC and PM inks to about the 45% level and then to the 
C and P for darker shading, the B becoming significant above 75%, 
with the C predominant from 35%-65% and M from 65% to 90%. The Epson 
driver thus uses the M position for the darkest shading.
>  
> > 
> > Ok, you printed a 24-bit grayscale image.  What inks in what 
> > positions did you use to print the 21-stepwedge?  What Epson 
dialog 
> > settings did you use (Color or Black, Color Correction On or Off, 
> > what printer profile, etc.)?  
> 
> Epson setup : Color mode, Correction Off, default ICM, Stock Epson 
2000P Color Inkset. I have yet to fill the CIS carts and install 
them - 
> 
> 
> > NOTE: Without applying a partitioned curve to a 24-bit BW image 
or a 
> > lumped/non-partitioned curve to an 8-bit BW image all you are 
testing 
> > is how the native, uncontrolled Epson driver responds.  Of course 
it 
> > will yield strange results.
> >  
> 
> I am lost in lumped partition workspace - very unfamiliar with 
these procedures.
> 
> 
> > 
> > Very interesting procedure.  How the inks on paper reflect light 
to 
> > the eye might be better quantified if you p
> > 
> 
> 'p' print ??? I can't print until I install the inks, and I will do 
that only after I choose their positions. I am sure there is some non 
proportionality between dilution density and printed grey level.
> 
> > 
> > The actual *color* Magenta may be darker (less luminious) than 
Cyan, 
> > I have not done the experiment.  However, the current ink 
positions 
> > of FS, FS-E, & PiezoBW are a historical artifact based on the 
> > original positions chosen by the developers of the PiezoBW driver 
who 
> > totally bypassed the Epson driver.  In reality, the inks can be 
in 
> > any position (eg., either yellow or photomagenta position could 
hold 
> > the darkest ink) if the driver is written correctly.  When MIS 
> > developed the FS inkset they wanted folks to be able to use the 
FS 
> > inks with the PiezoBW driver.  Because many folks wanted to also 
use 
> > the MIS inks with Epson drivers, a series of partitioned and 
> > lumped/nonpartitioned curves were developed to control the Epson 
> > driver with the inks in the historical positions.
> > 
> 
> I am going to try to do this with the Epson Driver as there are no 
alternatives (aka Piezo) for the 2000P. I had fully planned to stuff 
this printer in the closet and purchase a 1280; this is a last 
attempt at making my 2000P work before doing so. 
> 
>  
> > 
> > 
> > Many folks are using the VM and FS families of ink with an Epson 
> > driver quite sucessfully and producing smooth, nonposterized 
prints 
> > with the currently available workflows.  The partitioned 
workflows 
> > have been especially written for the current ink densities and 
> > *color* positions.  There may be mislabeled bottles or 
incorrectly 
> > filled carts, but there are no 'misplaced' inks.
> 
> I tried a set of VM prefilled carts ( for the 1280 ) and was not 
pleased at all with the results. I tried Paul Roark's color 
correction curves, but never got satisfactory results - the prints 
were highly posterized..

>  
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Alex

Hi Jeff, 

Thanks for the information. I'll let you know what I find.
I want to pull this Epson color cart and verify that the C and PC,
M and PM are about 3:1 in shade as is the MIS FS inkset. Somehow, having the PM ( soon to be 'PC' ) lighter color than Yellow bothers me...

I have a copy of Woolf's workflows: they are more an S curve contrast enhancement. 

I am probably totally incorrect with all of this, but it seems worth a try ....

Best,
Alex

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jrandall1149" <jrandall@c...> wrote:

> Alex:
> 
> You are heading into uncharted waters (at least by me) of reordering 
> the ink positions and using the Epson driver with no adjustment 
> curves.  Paul Roark theorized several months ago about switching the 
> FS ink positions, but I don't remember the details or know if he ran 
> any tests.  
> 
> You indicated you tried the VM inkset and found it didn't work for 
> you on your 2000.  Now that you have the FS-E inks, I suggest you 
> consider the Woolf lumped/nonpartitioned work flow for the FS-E 
> inkset before you commit to your plan--this is an alternative to the 
> PiezoBW driver.  
> 
> The workflow can be found on the MIS Quad Workflow page at:  
> www.inksupply.com.
> 
> Good Luck.
> 
> Jeff Randall
> 
>

Alex:

Isn't Woolf's workflow curve just a slight tweak up from your goal of 
printing a 8-bit grayscale image with the Epson driver with no 
correction? If you are planning to control each ink seperately, I 
think you will have to convert to 24-bits and "color" the grayscale 
image so the Epson driver knows which ink to laydown (this is called 
partitioning).  The Epson driver sees in RGB (converted internally to 
CMY) not in grayscale when in the color mode.  

Jeff Randall 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "a_pettit_jr" 
<a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:
> Hi Jeff, 
> 
> Thanks for the information. I'll let you know what I find.
> I want to pull this Epson color cart and verify that the C and PC,
> M and PM are about 3:1 in shade as is the MIS FS inkset. Somehow, 
having the PM ( soon to be 'PC' ) lighter color than Yellow bothers 
me...
> 
> I have a copy of Woolf's workflows: they are more an S curve 
contrast enhancement. 
> 
> I am probably totally incorrect with all of this, but it seems 
worth a try ....
> 
> Best,
> Alex
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jrandall1149" 
<jrandall@c...> wrote:
> > Alex:
> > 
> > You are heading into uncharted waters (at least by me) of 
reordering 
> > the ink positions and using the Epson driver with no adjustment 
> > curves.  Paul Roark theorized several months ago about switching 
the 
> > FS ink positions, but I don't remember the details or know if he 
ran 
> > any tests.  
> > 
> > You indicated you tried the VM inkset and found it didn't work 
for 
> > you on your 2000.  Now that you have the FS-E inks, I suggest you 
> > consider the Woolf lumped/nonpartitioned work flow for the FS-E 
> > inkset before you commit to your plan--this is an alternative to 
the 

> > PiezoBW driver.  
> > 
> > The workflow can be found on the MIS Quad Workflow page at:  
> > www.inksupply.com.
> > 
> > Good Luck.
> > 
> > Jeff Randall
> > 
> >

Hi Jeff,

You have identified the problem in attempting to use Woolf's correction curves : they are just S curve contrast corrections. If the inks are misplaced, this type of workflow cannot correct the error. It would take the sophisticated RGB color corrections of Paul Roark to compensate for inks in positions 'not expected' by the Epson Driver.
( IE, the Epson driver is going to squirt from the Black position even if I install Yellow ink and no greyscale control can correct that )
Thus my hypothesis: if the inks are incorrectly located, a simple S curve tweak will be fully ineffective. I am hoping to get as close as Epson 'expects' the inks to be and then use some mild correction curve if needed.....

Maybe the 2000P, being pigment based, uses drivers which deposit inks in a sequence differing from the other Epsons and thus the classic hex grey sets have not worked optimally ??

Best,
Alex


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jrandall1149" <jrandall@c...> wrote:

> Alex:
> 
> Isn't Woolf's workflow curve just a slight tweak up from your goal of 
> printing a 8-bit grayscale image with the Epson driver with no 
> correction? If you are planning to control each ink seperately, I 
> think you will have to convert to 24-bits and "color" the grayscale 
> image so the Epson driver knows which ink to laydown (this is called 
> partitioning).  The Epson driver sees in RGB (converted internally to 
> CMY) not in grayscale when in the color mode.  
> 
> Jeff Randall 
> 
>

Alex:

My working knowledge of the Epson driver (others please step in and 
help/correct me because I am beyond my detailed technical knowledge 
of drivers) is that it does not not see in grayscale, meaning that it 
does not cause the ink in the Cyan position to fire when it is sent a 
certain brightness/luminosity/lightness/density value. It fires when 
sent a CMY color of a given brightness. In grayscale mode, I suspect 
that the CMY information is close to equal creating various shade of 
gray depending on the brightness information sent to the driver.

I haven't checked it out, but I suspect that the Woolf workflow would 
work with the gray inks in any positions (but K=K) because it treats 
all the gray inks essentially the same -- hence the brightness of 
each Woolf dot is the same until K kicks in at about 50%.  BTW, the 
Woolf curve is not very aggressive and seems to fit my understanding 
of your goal of mild correction.

The only way that I know of to control the individual inks in any 
particular position with the Epson driver is to assign colors & 
brightnesses to the grayscale image--this is called partitioning. 
Roark, Brandon, and Randall workflows (found at MIS 
www.inksupply.com) are examples.  

You may have hit on something about the sequence of ink deposition 
creating an additional variable.

Jeff Randall


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "a_pettit_jr" 
<a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:
> Hi Jeff,
> 
> You have identified the problem in attempting to use Woolf's 
correction curves : they are just S curve contrast corrections. If 
the inks are misplaced, this type of workflow cannot correct the 
error. It would take the sophisticated RGB color corrections of Paul 
Roark to compensate for inks in positions 'not expected' by the Epson 
Driver.
> ( IE, the Epson driver is going to squirt from the Black position 
even if I install Yellow ink and no greyscale control can correct 
that )
> Thus my hypothesis: if the inks are incorrectly located, a simple S 
curve tweak will be fully ineffective. I am hoping to get as close as 
Epson 'expects' the inks to be and then use some mild correction 
curve if needed.....
> 
> Maybe the 2000P, being pigment based, uses drivers which deposit 
inks in a sequence differing from the other Epsons and thus the 
classic hex grey sets have not worked optimally ??
> 
> Best,
> Alex
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jrandall1149" 
<jrandall@c...> wrote:
> > Alex:
> > 
> > Isn't Woolf's workflow curve just a slight tweak up from your 
goal of 
> > printing a 8-bit grayscale image with the Epson driver with no 
> > correction? If you are planning to control each ink seperately, I 
> > think you will have to convert to 24-bits and "color" the 
grayscale 
> > image so the Epson driver knows which ink to laydown (this is 
called 
> > partitioning).  The Epson driver sees in RGB (converted 
internally to 

> > CMY) not in grayscale when in the color mode.  
> > 
> > Jeff Randall 
> > 
> >

Hi Jeff,
After additional microscopic examination of a greyscale (printed in Color), I can conclusively state:
the Epson2000P driver 
1) uses Black ink only above the 80% black level
2) the full color CMs are used from 50% and above
3) the PC and PM is used from 1% to 50%
4) Yellow is used throughout the range (perhaps not above 95%)

It seems that the grey shades are pretty much a balance of C and M, so it probably does not matter which is the darker tone, but there is ( perhaps metameristically ) an increased magenta tint in the darker shades. And, if one was to print a color photo directly with a Hex grey set of inks, it Is required for the magenta to be the darker ink for image fidelity.

Also, from what I can observe, it seems incorrect for the PCe to nearly equal the M in density. I plan to create one new shade for the first trial and resequence the inks. I ordered some empty carts to test my 'theory' before filling the CIS set.

Later,
Alex


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jrandall1149" <jrandall@c...> wrote:

> Alex:
> 
> My working knowledge of the Epson driver (others please step in and 
> help/correct me because I am beyond my detailed technical knowledge 
> of drivers) is that it does not not see in grayscale, meaning that it 
> does not cause the ink in the Cyan position to fire when it is sent a 
> certain brightness/luminosity/lightness/density value. It fires when 
> sent a CMY color of a given brightness. In grayscale mode, I suspect 
> that the CMY information is close to equal creating various shade of 
> gray depending on the brightness information sent to the driver.
> 
> I haven't checked it out, but I suspect that the Woolf workflow would 
> work with the gray inks in any positions (but K=K) because it treats 
> all the gray inks essentially the same -- hence the brightness of 
> each Woolf dot is the same until K kicks in at about 50%.  BTW, the 
> Woolf curve is not very aggressive and seems to fit my understanding 
> of your goal of mild correction.
> 
> The only way that I know of to control the individual inks in any 
> particular position with the Epson driver is to assign colors & 
> brightnesses to the grayscale image--this is called partitioning. 
> Roark, Brandon, and Randall workflows (found at MIS 
> www.inksupply.com) are examples.  
> 
> You may have hit on something about the sequence of ink deposition 
> creating an additional variable.
> 
> Jeff Randall
> 
> 
> > >

Alex:

You wrote:  >And, if one was to print a color photo directly with a 
Hex grey set of inks, it Is required for the magenta to be the darker 
ink for image fidelity.

Is your goal to develop a B/W inkset with the positions and densities 
that you can use to directly print a 24-bit RGB color image and get a 
natural looking grayscale picture without first converting to 8-bit 
grayscale or 24-bit grayscale and *colorizing* it with partitioning 
curves?  

Jeff Randall


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "a_pettit_jr" 
<a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:
> Hi Jeff,
> After additional microscopic examination of a greyscale (printed in 
Color), I can conclusively state:
> the Epson2000P driver 
> 1) uses Black ink only above the 80% black level
> 2) the full color CMs are used from 50% and above
> 3) the PC and PM is used from 1% to 50%
> 4) Yellow is used throughout the range (perhaps not above 95%)
> 
> It seems that the grey shades are pretty much a balance of C and M, 
so it probably does not matter which is the darker tone, but there is 
( perhaps metameristically ) an increased magenta tint in the darker 
shades. And, if one was to print a color photo directly with a Hex 
grey set of inks, it Is required for the magenta to be the darker ink 
for image fidelity.
> 
> Also, from what I can observe, it seems incorrect for the PCe to 
nearly equal the M in density. I plan to create one new shade for the 
first trial and resequence the inks. I ordered some empty carts to 
test my 'theory' before filling the CIS set.
> 
> Later,
> Alex
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jrandall1149" 
<jrandall@c...> wrote:
> > Alex:
> > 
> > My working knowledge of the Epson driver (others please step in 
and 
> > help/correct me because I am beyond my detailed technical 
knowledge 
> > of drivers) is that it does not not see in grayscale, meaning 
that it 
> > does not cause the ink in the Cyan position to fire when it is 
sent a 
> > certain brightness/luminosity/lightness/density value. It fires 
when 
> > sent a CMY color of a given brightness. In grayscale mode, I 
suspect 
> > that the CMY information is close to equal creating various shade 
of 
> > gray depending on the brightness information sent to the driver.
> > 
> > I haven't checked it out, but I suspect that the Woolf workflow 
would 
> > work with the gray inks in any positions (but K=K) because it 
treats 
> > all the gray inks essentially the same -- hence the brightness of 
> > each Woolf dot is the same until K kicks in at about 50%.  BTW, 
the 
> > Woolf curve is not very aggressive and seems to fit my 
understanding 
> > of your goal of mild correction.
> > 
> > The only way that I know of to control the individual inks in any 
> > particular position with the Epson driver is to assign colors & 
> > brightnesses to the grayscale image--this is called partitioning. 
> > Roark, Brandon, and Randall workflows (found at MIS 
> > www.inksupply.com) are examples.  
> > 
> > You may have hit on something about the sequence of ink 
deposition 

> > creating an additional variable.
> > 
> > Jeff Randall
> > 
> > 
> > > >

Hello Jeff,

My original intent was to just try a set of FS inks and print.

When I unintentionally ordered the Piezo set rather than the Epson version, I thought I would 'see what was different' while waiting for the replacement inks. I learned the FS set was originally designed for the Piezo drivers and then modified for the Epson.

I then wondered if That had been the problem I experienced attempting to get the VM partitioned workflows functioning or if that the 2000P did something different in its drivers than the 1280, etc.
And then the Luminance layer to greyscale conversion got me off on the Magenta vs Cyan position tangent, etc..... ( still hold that they Are swapped but perhaps irrelivant )

The Epson 2000P has not had the best reviews with regards to printing Color, and my original attempt to use a greyscale set fell Flat, or at least posterized.

I am just trying to give this ole 2000P one last chance at being a good BW printer and am questioning if the inkset was optimal.

At this point, I think the PCe ink is too strong and am going to mix a lighter one for the trial set.

Thanks for your assistance,
Alex



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jrandall1149" <jrandall@c...> wrote:

> Alex:
> 
> You wrote:  >And, if one was to print a color photo directly with a 
> Hex grey set of inks, it Is required for the magenta to be the darker 
> ink for image fidelity.
> 
> Is your goal to develop a B/W inkset with the positions and densities 
> that you can use to directly print a 24-bit RGB color image and get a 
> natural looking grayscale picture without first converting to 8-bit 
> grayscale or 24-bit grayscale and *colorizing* it with partitioning 
> curves?  
> 
> Jeff Randall
> 
> 
>
> > > > >

I believe I have just come to the realization that unless  Color Correction Partitioned Curves are applied, a six color printer is going to print a grey scale ( in RGB space ) with only 3 fixed 'shades' of ink with the stock Epson Driver : 

1) Black ( from ~ 80% grey up)
2) C M Y ( ~ 50% grey up )
3) PC,PM,Y ( 0% to 50% grey)

The Epson driver is going to blend the appropriate Cs and Ms and Y to create a balanced Grey tone. The droplet size will vary, the ratios remain fixed.
In order to optimize the inks, a pseudo color image must be created to force the darker shades to be used at the deeper color end of the overall scale or perhaps more importantly that the lighter shades be used for the whiter tones to reduce the appearance of droplet visibility ...

C o m m e n t s  ???

Alex

BINGO!  And for quad-ink systems, only 2 shades will be printed -- 
black and gray (a constant mix of the 3 gray inks) unless an RGB 
partitioned curve set is applied to a 24-bit grayscale image (ie., 
pseudo colorized).  

Jeff Randall

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "a_pettit_jr" 
<a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:
> I believe I have just come to the realization that unless  Color 
Correction Partitioned Curves are applied, a six color printer is 
going to print a grey scale ( in RGB space ) with only 3 
fixed 'shades' of ink with the stock Epson Driver : 
> 
> 1) Black ( from ~ 80% grey up)
> 2) C M Y ( ~ 50% grey up )
> 3) PC,PM,Y ( 0% to 50% grey)
> 
> The Epson driver is going to blend the appropriate Cs and Ms and Y 
to create a balanced Grey tone. The droplet size will vary, the 
ratios remain fixed.
> In order to optimize the inks, a pseudo color image must be created 
to force the darker shades to be used at the deeper color end of the 
overall scale or perhaps more importantly that the lighter shades be 
used for the whiter tones to reduce the appearance of droplet 
visibility ...

> 
> C o m m e n t s  ???
> 
> Alex

Did I just rediscover something well known ?? 
Oh well, at least I am finally learning the complexity of what is required to accomplish the fine art of B&W with a Color based printer driver ....

Alex

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jrandall1149" <jrandall@c...> wrote:

> BINGO!  And for quad-ink systems, only 2 shades will be printed -- 
> black and gray (a constant mix of the 3 gray inks) unless an RGB 
> partitioned curve set is applied to a 24-bit grayscale image (ie., 
> pseudo colorized).  
> 
> Jeff Randall
>

What got me sidetracked for several days was the ole 2000P's Metamerism tricking me into thinking that the lighter shades had a cyan bias; the deeper shades tones of magenta - THAT is why I was so adamant about the improper position of the darker ink being 'cyan' instead of 'magenta'.
Alex

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "a_pettit_jr" <a_pettit_jr@y...> wrote:

> Did I just rediscover something well known ?? 
> Oh well, at least I am finally learning the complexity of what is required to accomplish the fine art of B&W with a Color based printer driver ....
> 
> Alex
> 
> >