Digital BW, The Print

You might want to try the MIS VM inkset with Enhanced black from
generations in the black position. It doesn't turn colors after 3 months
in a sunny south window.

Jerry.

The enhanced black will give you great blacks, the VM black is not
nearly as satisfying.



chervinsky02144 wrote:

> 
> Hi,
> 
> I would like to share with you the result of a rather primitive light
> exposure experiment that I have done with Piezotone SE ink and
> MIS FS ink on PhotoRag 308 paper.
> 
> The images you are about to see were printed on two different
> Epson 1160 printers, one with MIS FS ink the other with the
> PiezoTone SE ink; the SE printer was flushed as per IJM's
> instructions prior to cartridge installation.  The Randall workflow
> was used because it produces a much darker D-Max than the
> Piezo driver; 2.00 compared to 1.77.  The prints were taped to a
> climate controlled office wall in a uniformly lit area.  The office
> has a large panel of windows leading to the outside and the
> walls and ceiling are painted white; it is quite a bright room,
> bright enough to not have to use the overhead lights at all. The
> prints were taped to the wall adjacent to the windows
> approximately two feet from them.  At no time during the days of
> the exposure did the prints see any direct sunlight; only reflected
> light.  The right side of each of the prints was covered with black
> opaque paper taken from a box of old photographic paper for the
> duration of the exposure.  The prints were mounted from 8/15/02
> - 9/4/02 or three weeks total.  Since the test, the prints were kept
> in a dark drawer and scanned on 9/10/02 on a flatbed scanner.
> Both prints were scanned in RGB color with the same scanning
> parameters.
> 
> The Piezotone SE image is here:
> 
> http://users.rcn.com/chervinsky/Photography/People/PiezoSE.jpg
> 
> The MIS FS image is here:
> 
> http://users.rcn.com/chervinsky/Photography/People/MIS.jpg
> 
> The D-Max of the PiezoTone SE print went from 2.0 to 1.63 in the
> exposed area and stayed the same in the covered area.  The
> D-Max of the MIS print went from 1.73 to 1.72 in the exposed area
> and stayed the same in the covered area.  Densitometry
> measurements were done with a calibrated X-Rite 810
> densitometer.
> 
> Subjective Assessment: I am greatly impressed with the general
> appearance of PeizoTone SE print as it comes out of the printer;
> the blacks are just spectacular, MUCH better the MIS FS ink.  I
> am also impressed with the inks overall neutrality.  I am,
> however, quite disappointed with the inks lightfastness.  Further,
> when the PiezoTone ink fades it tends to turn pink.  As I
> mentioned earlier the office is bright but I do not believe that it
> could be three stops brighter than display conditions.  I worry that
> after 6 months in display light that my prints will fade in a similar
> way.
> 
> I hope this has been helpful to all.
> 
> Thanks for your time.
> 
> -John Chervinsky
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

John,

Thank you very much for sharing this information. Very disappointing to put
it mildly. The Selenium PT out of the printer or unexposed to light is
wonderful but this is a gross failure. Just when I finally find something I
like... Sigh. The appearance of the MIS-FS print seems rather typical of the
warming we see with the carbon pigment inks, particularly the FS and
original Piezo inks. Hopefully the FS Neutral and Sepia-VM would have faired
a bit better in this comparison.

I also suspect that the failure is largely due to the poor black
performance. How far up the scale does the Randall workflow use the black
ink? The Piezo driver seems to keep the black below 80%.

With your permission I would like to place both of these jpegs and your post
in the Files section of the group's homepage. If you have scans of un-faded
copies of the print that would be nice to add too.

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message -----
From: "chervinsky02144" <chervinsky@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 3:26 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Piezotone SE vs. MIS FS: See Posted Images


> Hi,
>
> I would like to share with you the result of a rather primitive light
> exposure experiment that I have done with Piezotone SE ink and
> MIS FS ink on PhotoRag 308 paper.
>
> The images you are about to see were printed on two different
> Epson 1160 printers, one with MIS FS ink the other with the
> PiezoTone SE ink; the SE printer was flushed as per IJM's
> instructions prior to cartridge installation.  The Randall workflow
> was used because it produces a much darker D-Max than the
> Piezo driver; 2.00 compared to 1.77.  The prints were taped to a
> climate controlled office wall in a uniformly lit area.  The office
> has a large panel of windows leading to the outside and the
> walls and ceiling are painted white; it is quite a bright room,
> bright enough to not have to use the overhead lights at all. The
> prints were taped to the wall adjacent to the windows
> approximately two feet from them.  At no time during the days of
> the exposure did the prints see any direct sunlight; only reflected
> light.  The right side of each of the prints was covered with black
> opaque paper taken from a box of old photographic paper for the
> duration of the exposure.  The prints were mounted from 8/15/02
> - 9/4/02 or three weeks total.  Since the test, the prints were kept
> in a dark drawer and scanned on 9/10/02 on a flatbed scanner.
> Both prints were scanned in RGB color with the same scanning
> parameters.
>
> The Piezotone SE image is here:
>
> http://users.rcn.com/chervinsky/Photography/People/PiezoSE.jpg
>
> The MIS FS image is here:
>
> http://users.rcn.com/chervinsky/Photography/People/MIS.jpg
>
> The D-Max of the PiezoTone SE print went from 2.0 to 1.63 in the
> exposed area and stayed the same in the covered area.  The
> D-Max of the MIS print went from 1.73 to 1.72 in the exposed area
> and stayed the same in the covered area.  Densitometry
> measurements were done with a calibrated X-Rite 810
> densitometer.
>
> Subjective Assessment: I am greatly impressed with the general
> appearance of PeizoTone SE print as it comes out of the printer;
> the blacks are just spectacular, MUCH better the MIS FS ink.  I
> am also impressed with the inks overall neutrality.  I am,
> however, quite disappointed with the inks lightfastness.  Further,
> when the PiezoTone ink fades it tends to turn pink.  As I
> mentioned earlier the office is bright but I do not believe that it
> could be three stops brighter than display conditions.  I worry that
> after 6 months in display light that my prints will fade in a similar
> way.
>
> I hope this has been helpful to all.
>
> Thanks for your time.
>
> -John Chervinsky
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Martin Wesley wrote:
> 
> John,
> 
> Thank you very much for sharing this information. Very disappointing to put
> it mildly. The Selenium PT out of the printer or unexposed to light is
> wonderful but this is a gross failure. Just when I finally find something I
> like... Sigh. The appearance of the MIS-FS print seems rather typical of the
> warming we see with the carbon pigment inks, particularly the FS and
> original Piezo inks. Hopefully the FS Neutral and Sepia-VM would have faired
> a bit better in this comparison.
> 
> I also suspect that the failure is largely due to the poor black
> performance. How far up the scale does the Randall workflow use the black
> ink? The Piezo driver seems to keep the black below 80%.
> 
> With your permission I would like to place both of these jpegs and your post
> in the Files section of the group's homepage. If you have scans of un-faded
> copies of the print that would be nice to add too.
> 
> Martin Wesley
> 
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

Martin & Co.

After reading your reviews of the Cone Selenium inks and reading the
claims of these new inks on the Cone Site I decided against my better
judgment to give the inks a try. My first experience with the Original
Cone inks a few years back was a big headache / disappointment. So.. my
new Piezotone Selenium inks arrive for my 1280 in pre loaded carts. I
follow all the instructions to the letter, using a set of $40 cleaning
carts, I install the new inks and I get BLUE / CYAN prints! I call up
Cone Tech support and they don't know what is wrong and don't ask many
questions. The only answer they have for  me is that they want to send
me another set of carts and cross their fingers that the next set will
be fine. I install the next set and get the same BLUE / CYAN prints.
They have since taken the inks in the 1280 carts off the market and are
reformulating them. When they came out with these inks they stated that
they now have unprecedented quality control and have done vast amounts
of beta testing on these new wonder inks. So much for that!! NOW we are
getting reports that the prints fade in a FEW MONTHS... let alone 50
years. I have never in my life seen a company tout such product genius /
superiority & charge for for such genius / superiority and deliver such
crap! What are they thinking ??

-Jeff

disappointment. So.. my
> new Piezotone Selenium inks arrive for my 1280 in pre loaded 
carts. I
> follow all the instructions to the letter, using a set of $40 
cleaning
> carts, I install the new inks and I get BLUE / CYAN prints! I call 
up
> Cone Tech support and they don't know what is wrong and 
don't ask many
> questions. The only answer they have for  me is that they want 
to send
> me another set of carts and cross their fingers that the next set 
will
> be fine. I install the next set and get the same BLUE / CYAN 
prints.
> They have since taken the inks in the 1280 carts off the market 
and are
> reformulating them. When they came out with these inks they 
stated that
> they now have unprecedented quality control and have done 
vast amounts

Over in the piezo group Jon posted a note explaining the 
problem.  Apparently the sponge material in the cartridge has a 
reaction to the new inks.  An inert sponge material was identified 
and the cartridges will be reissued w/the new sponge material.  I 
have the same problem w/my 1280 cartridge.  

The development of the new inks was done w/the CIS system in 
mind and the extensive testing was on the CIS system.  
Apparently those cartridges have not reacted w/the PiezoTone 
inks.

Dave G.

----- Original Message -----

From: <jeffm@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Piezotone SE vs. MIS FS: See Posted Images


>
>
> Martin Wesley wrote:
> >
(snip earlier)
>
> Martin & Co.
>
> After reading your reviews of the Cone Selenium inks and reading the
> claims of these new inks on the Cone Site I decided against my better
> judgment to give the inks a try. My first experience with the Original
> Cone inks a few years back was a big headache / disappointment. So.. my
> new Piezotone Selenium inks arrive for my 1280 in pre loaded carts. I
> follow all the instructions to the letter, using a set of $40 cleaning
> carts, I install the new inks and I get BLUE / CYAN prints! I call up
> Cone Tech support and they don't know what is wrong and don't ask many
> questions. The only answer they have for  me is that they want to send
> me another set of carts and cross their fingers that the next set will
> be fine. I install the next set and get the same BLUE / CYAN prints.
> They have since taken the inks in the 1280 carts off the market and are
> reformulating them. When they came out with these inks they stated that
> they now have unprecedented quality control and have done vast amounts
> of beta testing on these new wonder inks. So much for that!! NOW we are
> getting reports that the prints fade in a FEW MONTHS... let alone 50
> years. I have never in my life seen a company tout such product genius /
> superiority & charge for for such genius / superiority and deliver such
> crap! What are they thinking ??
>
> -Jeff

Jeff,

All I can say is that I am incredibly disappointed. I have waited for a 1
1/2 years for an ink set that had just the hue I wanted and the Selenium PT
out of the printer comes closer than anything else. As for the gap between
ConeTech's claims and the reality of their products I have to agree with
you. Often what I see as important improvements or basically good products
get so over hyped it seems like they wind up setting themselves up for a PR
disaster if a problem should occur.

At this point I think that the gray inks from the Selenium and Warm Neutral
PiezoTone ink sets are pretty good. Based on Paul's fade testing the best of
the  carbon pigment ink sets. The problem seems to lie with the black and
that is replaceable. I have run several test prints and wedges with the
MIS-FSN black replacing the PT black and this makes a nice ink set.  I miss
the extra dmax of the PT black and I will try the Generations 4 black but
the difference between the inks with the PT black and the FSN black are very
small. The FSN black also seems a better match with the paper profiles in
the Piezo driver.

As to the " blue" situation I don't know what the problem is. I have never
encountered it with my CIS so I will accept ConeTech's explanation about the
bad foam in the cartridges for now. At least they are offering to replace
the bad carts once they have some good ones.

This will sound like a wimp out but welcome to the world of grayscale ink
printing. Someday it will probably grow up but right now it is still
floundering around. As of today I would still recommend the PiezoTone inks
if you replace the black with MIS-FSN black or Gen 4 black, if you want to
get better Dmax and accept a shorter life. The MIS-FSN, MIS-VM and
MIS-Sepia-VM are known ink sets with no history of sudden failure to date.

Martin Wesley