Digital BW, The Print

Michael,

First, you have some really great work on your website and I recommend it to
the members. Liked your "Favorites" and "Cuba" portfolios especially. Also
the idea of golf and art photography are not two things I had ever connected
in my own head. Well done! I stuck your website in the group Links under
Photographers.

As to the match between the various inks and the Piezo plugin, the original
Piezo inks seem to be the best in this regard. Not surprising since they are
what the software was designed for. It seems likely that the new Sundance
Neutral-Warm inks would also a good match or have their own profiles within
the R9 plugin since Sundance does have the software resources to make new
profiles. I wish we would get some user reports on this ink.

The MIS-FS and FS Neutral seem to be very close for use with the profiles.
At least there have been a large number of people switching from the
original Piezo ink to these inks and no complaints about a poor profile
match.

I have been able to work well with the existing profiles and the Selenium PT
on my 1280 running under Windows 2000. People with other printers and OS's
have had different experiences. In switching to the FS-K with the Sel-PT
grays I think that there is a better fit to the profiles in the deep shadows
but it would still be nice to have the profiles tweaked.

I am sorry about your print recall. The Selenium-PT got me really excited
about printing and I ran through a lot of expensive 13x19 paper over the
last few weeks. I am now in the process of tweaking the files to reprint
with the PT-K. I am not happy. I am especially not happy since I believe a
lot of people may have went with this ink based upon my initial positive
posts.

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message -----
From: "mfp90021" <mfp90021@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 8:52 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Exposed INK


>
> I would like to thank Paul, Martin, Antonis and the rest for all
> their
> hard work testing all the inks and especially for sharing the
> knowledge.  Without your efforts we would have continued to
> believe the false advertising claims of some of our suppliers.
> These self proclaimed geniuses need to make good.  I am in the
> process of recalling close to 30 framed prints, before they are
> returned to me.  Its rather an embarrassing process as I
> assured my clients the prints were archival, at least beyond that
> of a C print.  I was under the impression they would last 75-100
> years.  To call them and tell them that their pictures are going to
> turn red within months is completely unacceptable to me, and a
> major setback for my clients to accept the digital process.  I have
> to say that I was also very disappointed when told that the
> Piezotones would work perfectly with the Piezo software only to
> find that they did not.  Then to find out the reason that the new
> inks were not profiled was because the "inventor" did not have
> the technology to profile his own inks.
>
> What to do now?  It seems that I will either switch back to the
> Sundance inks, go for the MIS FS-N, or switch to MIS FS-N black
> with the Piezotone inks.  My question is will the MIS inks give me
> the smooth grayscale that the Sundance inks did with the R9
> driver?  Is this Piezo/MIS combo plug and play with the R9 driver?
> Should I switch to MIS FS-N for all the inks and is that plug and
> play with the R9 driver?
>
> I've seen enough amazing digital prints to stick with it and with
> forums like this sharing knowledge its just a matter of time for
> this technology to mature and be embraced.  Thanks again to all
> for your honesty and hard work keeping us informed and
> exposing poor products.
>
> Durst and Sneider still in storage!
>
> -Michael
>
> Www.michaelfaye.com
> Www.collectiblegolf.com
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

I use MIS FS with the piezodriver - it was a plug 'n play replacement.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "mfp90021" <mfp90021@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 5:52 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Exposed INK


>
> I would like to thank Paul, Martin, Antonis and the rest for all
> their
> hard work testing all the inks and especially for sharing the
> knowledge.  Without your efforts we would have continued to
> believe the false advertising claims of some of our suppliers.
> These self proclaimed geniuses need to make good.  I am in the
> process of recalling close to 30 framed prints, before they are
> returned to me.  Its rather an embarrassing process as I
> assured my clients the prints were archival, at least beyond that
> of a C print.  I was under the impression they would last 75-100
> years.  To call them and tell them that their pictures are going to
> turn red within months is completely unacceptable to me, and a
> major setback for my clients to accept the digital process.  I have
> to say that I was also very disappointed when told that the
> Piezotones would work perfectly with the Piezo software only to
> find that they did not.  Then to find out the reason that the new
> inks were not profiled was because the "inventor" did not have
> the technology to profile his own inks.
>
> What to do now?  It seems that I will either switch back to the
> Sundance inks, go for the MIS FS-N, or switch to MIS FS-N black
> with the Piezotone inks.  My question is will the MIS inks give me
> the smooth grayscale that the Sundance inks did with the R9
> driver?  Is this Piezo/MIS combo plug and play with the R9 driver?
> Should I switch to MIS FS-N for all the inks and is that plug and
> play with the R9 driver?
>
> I've seen enough amazing digital prints to stick with it and with
> forums like this sharing knowledge its just a matter of time for
> this technology to mature and be embraced.  Thanks again to all
> for your honesty and hard work keeping us informed and
> exposing poor products.
>
> Durst and Sneider still in storage!
>
> -Michael
>
> Www.michaelfaye.com
> Www.collectiblegolf.com
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Hi Martin,

----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 7:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Exposed INK


> ...
> I am sorry about your print recall. The Selenium-PT got me really excited
> about printing and I ran through a lot of expensive 13x19 paper over the
> last few weeks. I am now in the process of tweaking the files to reprint
> with the PT-K. I am not happy. I am especially not happy since I believe a
> lot of people may have went with this ink based upon my initial positive
> posts.

One of them is me... ;)

My CIS kit arrived last Tuesday and I decided to wait until the weekend to
install it hopefully letting myself to have time to read messages mentioning
this "PT black ink fading issue". I postponed the installation of the system
and I ordered a 4oz bottle of MIS-FSN black ink. I will install the system
with the MIS-FSN black.

Some questions:

1. Can I print without problems using Piezography BW plug-in using my
(MIS-FSN black + Selenium PT midtones) primed CIS? If not, what is the
method to do it? What I should expect for such a hybrid set?

2. There is one point that I cannot understand:
I have a color print from my Epson 890 hanging on my office wall. The print
was made on semi-glossy Tetenal Portrait Paper using standard Epson inks. It
was framed under a matte (some type of plastic - plexiglass?) surface and it
is hanging there since more than 8 months. There are 4 x 100W fluorescent
lightsources at about 6,5' (2m) absolute distance from the print (always on
in worktimes). Guess what? I can't see any noticeable fading or color shift.
So if I'm pleased by the performance 4color x 100% epson dyes, what can go
wrong with a 1color x (say...)25% dye PiezoTones?

Regards,
Loris.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Loris Medici" <loris.medici@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 3:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Exposed INK


>
> Hi Martin,
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 7:48 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Exposed INK
>
>
> > ...
> > I am sorry about your print recall. The Selenium-PT got me really
excited
> > about printing and I ran through a lot of expensive 13x19 paper over the
> > last few weeks. I am now in the process of tweaking the files to reprint
> > with the PT-K. I am not happy. I am especially not happy since I believe
a
> > lot of people may have went with this ink based upon my initial positive
> > posts.
>
> One of them is me... ;)
>
> My CIS kit arrived last Tuesday and I decided to wait until the weekend to
> install it hopefully letting myself to have time to read messages
mentioning
> this "PT black ink fading issue". I postponed the installation of the
system
> and I ordered a 4oz bottle of MIS-FSN black ink. I will install the system
> with the MIS-FSN black.

Loris,

Probably the wisest course for now.
>
> Some questions:
>
> 1. Can I print without problems using Piezography BW plug-in using my
> (MIS-FSN black + Selenium PT midtones) primed CIS? If not, what is the
> method to do it? What I should expect for such a hybrid set?

Well I did not have any problems making prints I liked using the current
profiles on my 1280 printer with the Sel-PT inks and with the FSN-black I am
finding I boost contrast and lower brightness a bit. If you are starting
from scratch you should not have any problems, or at least not anymore than
we all experience switching to digital B&W. Lot's to learn with scanning and
Photoshop. However, some people have reported problems with the profiles and
the Sel-PT but I think most of them were switching from original Piezo ink
where the profile to ink match is almost perfect and the change was very
noticeable. Tyler Boley suggestions on curve matching that Carolyn Frayn
posted may be of help. Also look for Tyler's method of using a custom Dot
Gain curve for creating a good on screen match to your prints. It is in the
Files section.

A note. If you do decide to give the PT-black a try I would recommend that
replace the black cartridge portion of CIS and completely clean the black
line and bottle. Standard procedure for changing inks in a CIS.

>
> 2. There is one point that I cannot understand:
> I have a color print from my Epson 890 hanging on my office wall. The
print
> was made on semi-glossy Tetenal Portrait Paper using standard Epson inks.
It
> was framed under a matte (some type of plastic - plexiglass?) surface and
it
> is hanging there since more than 8 months. There are 4 x 100W fluorescent
> lightsources at about 6,5' (2m) absolute distance from the print (always
on
> in worktimes). Guess what? I can't see any noticeable fading or color
shift.
> So if I'm pleased by the performance 4color x 100% epson dyes, what can go
> wrong with a 1color x (say...)25% dye PiezoTones?

Hard to say. One thing for sure, Fading it is not just an ink issue but
ink/paper combinations. Maybe this paper and the Epson inks are a great
match. Epson rates the display life of dye inks as high as 25 years on some
papers I believe so your results may not be surprising. I expect that in
general the carbon pigment grayscale inks will do much better but we have
seen exceptions. Some of my original Piezo ink on Torchon paper turned
orange in 9 months of dark storage. Other Piezo prints on many other papers
look fine 18 months later.

One key issue is that if all the inks in an ink set fade at the same rate
the fading will not be noticeable without taking measurements. The big
problems occur when one of the inks fades much faster than the others. This
quickly produces obvious color mismatches that are much more easily seen.

Martin